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Patriots looking for a 1st and 4th for Garoppolo (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
- Start date
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Not sure if ur asking me, but I would say A. as of now probably not and B. not really relevant to jimmahs current trade value discussion imho
massraider
Footballguy
He had two good games. Plus some good game experience. Yeah, probably two 1's.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Lets not forget that time Brady got benched the year the Pats werent good anymore against the Chiefs. Jimmy came in against a suffocating Chiefs D and drove down the field and scored with no problem.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I know you're either fishing or trying (poorly) to make a point but how many times has Barkley looked terrible out on the field, so his two "good" games look more like outliers - especially when they were followed up by two games where he threw 8 interceptions and lost a fumble.
I get that Garropolo is not exactly proven - but once again he was considered a pretty good prospect to begin with and has (in a very small sample size) looked the part. I don't think ultimately that a team will trade a first for him, but I wouldn't think it was a bad move if they did. If he went in the late first (as predicted) in his draft would people think it was a bad pick? I'd take him over Paxton Lynch who went in the late first just last season.
massraider
Footballguy
Gosh, he must be better than Brady then.
The sample size is laughably small. There is a much bigger sample size of backups to Brady proving they aren't worth more than a 4th, but this guy is totally worth it?
Hey, I'm not arguing someone won't offer up that price. Just remember these same people were saying the same things here about Mallet a few years ago.
The sample size is laughably small. There is a much bigger sample size of backups to Brady proving they aren't worth more than a 4th, but this guy is totally worth it?
Hey, I'm not arguing someone won't offer up that price. Just remember these same people were saying the same things here about Mallet a few years ago.
massraider
Footballguy
He was not considered a consensus first rounder in that draft. At all.
Matt Barkley was rated much higher before his final season, and was talked about as 1st overall.
That and 2.75 gets you on the subway.
Jimmy's draft scouting reports that we read on the internet really aren't relevant anymore, to my mind. We have no idea what teams really thought about him, and why his price would go UP based on two games is a mystery to me.
Bring groomed in NE has been proven, PROVEN, to not matter one bit, no?
Just a question for all who doubt JG is worth a first, let's assume you are a GM and need a young qb to groom going forward? Do you draft one, who and in what round?
Personally I think JG is as good as gone because cheap Krafty Bob isn't going to shell out the money it would take to keep him and Brady even if it wouldn't kill their cap. I'd be shocked if he didn't bring them first round type compensation ( a first, two seconds etc.) as the kid has as much upside as any young unproven qb coming out of college, cost less $$ and has the one thing so many people overlook: marketability. He's the good looking, well spoken,all American guy with the million $ smile who would be a perfect player for a team to have as the face of their franchise. If you don't think teams covet this you're naïve.
Personally I think JG is as good as gone because cheap Krafty Bob isn't going to shell out the money it would take to keep him and Brady even if it wouldn't kill their cap. I'd be shocked if he didn't bring them first round type compensation ( a first, two seconds etc.) as the kid has as much upside as any young unproven qb coming out of college, cost less $$ and has the one thing so many people overlook: marketability. He's the good looking, well spoken,all American guy with the million $ smile who would be a perfect player for a team to have as the face of their franchise. If you don't think teams covet this you're naïve.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He was a late first / early second in most mocks (and ended up being a late second). It doesn't earn him anything at this point, but it's a puzzle piece in the evaluation of what his value is now. Being groomed in NE has had mixed results, but how is that relevant? My evaluation is based on how he's looked in preseason games and more importantly regular season games.
Matt Cassell gets a lot of grief but he actually led KC to the playoffs and was a Pro-Bowler one season there. That deal wasn't a total disaster for them. On top of that Cassell was an undrafted QB that looked good (but not great) throwing to Randy Moss and Wes Welker in what was a record setting offense the year before. Garroplo's supporting cast was far less impressive with Gronk out injured and Edelman not up to speed. And Mallet never looked good in NE except for maybe one preseason game - people made the connection to Houston because of O'Brien -- and of course the results were far different.
Take a look at the late first and second round QBs taken the last five years and let me know how much better any of them are than Garropolo. Only Carr stands out. If there was a possibility for the Jets to acquire him, I'd be in favor of them giving an early second to test him out (not that that would ever happen).
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Candy arm. Also lots of bad games. Also already been cut once. Major prospect from major program that went in 4th round.
You're comparing apples and carburetors.
Boston
Footballguy
Not sure...how many franchises are proven in that Department? Is there a franchise that has been pumping out back-ups who have turned into legit starters on a regular basis? In the past Cassel is your best comp...the Pats got a #2 for him (and Vrabel) after playing a full season and looking pretty good...that was nine years ago...he was Ok for KC for a couple of years (not a bust...but way overpaid) and than nothing more than a marginal backup at best...outside of that the Pats have not had a backup that had the potential of Jimmy G...sorry but there was not much buzz about Mallet and I don't think anyone thought they were getting much back for him...he was a nice draft-day gamble because he looked like he might have some real talent despite the head-case issues...at no point in his career with the Pats did he look like anything too special...the rest of the back-ups in the Brady era were nothing more than back-ups...they are not comps to Jimmy G...
This is what we know...teams are QB starved in the NFL...if you don't have one you are probably in tough shape and as a Coach or GM you won't have much job security...this offseason is an odd one as far as QBs go...the draft does not look like anything special as far as QBs go...there are some veterans that will probably be out there like Romo, Cutler and Glennon...all of them will probably make a decent amount of money and all three have their warts in one way or another and only one (Glennon) looks like he has the potential to be more than a short-term answer but he will not come cheap...in his short stint this season Jimmy G played very well and looked the part of an NFL QB...obviously it is a small sample size (which is why I see Matt Shaub being somewhat of a comp for him) so he is far from a definite...he is the highest drafted QB in the BB era and from the scuttlebutt we hear they like him...he has been in a great system playing under Brady with a first-rate OC in McDaniel...so what does that make him? In my opinion it makes him a very solid prospect...throw in the fact you do not have to commit big money on him (IMO this is a huge part of his potential appeal) and it makes sense for a team to roll the dice on him...while I would love to see the Pats get a #1 for him that maybe a stretch especially since many of the teams (Cleveland, Chicago and San Fran) that could be potential suitors have picks that are just too high...the only team I could see potentially giving up a #1 is Houston...they are saddled with Osweiler's contract for one more year and he sucks...with Jimmy G making almost no money he would allow Houston to take a second shot at solving their QB issues while surviving Osweiler's contract for 2017...this is a team that needs to get this position solved ASAP and with Brock's contract hanging over them they do not have a ton of options...at the end-of-the-day I do think Cleveland is the best fit...they have the first pick in the second round which is right in BB's strike zone (that would give the Pats a 1, two 2's and two 3's and God knows what BB would turn that into)...the Browns are flush with picks overall...they need a QB badly but looking at the draft they maybe better suited not to use either of their 1's on a QB unless the kid from UNC blows up in the draft process...they would have a year to see if he's the answer and if not they move on from him without taking a financial hit and start over again...I'm not sure there's a better scenario for them to pursue unless the Pats overplay their hand and ask too much or they become enamored with a kid like Trubisky...
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Holy spit ... we really are repeating the entire Rohan-Davey-for-big-picks talk.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
GB during the Ron Wolf era... that lead to so many starting QBs in the NFL. The Ted Thompson era is too early to tell:
Matt Flynn was a complete bust in Oakland
Scott Tolzein looked really good in Indianapolis this year when Luck was out (if you watched the game)
Houston isn't going to risk wasting a 1st round pick on another flop QB to go with their flop of a QB making way too much money. That would be a nightmare. Yes, they need a QB ASAP but I can't see them taking another risk on an even more unproven commodity than what they did with Osweiler. Osweiler was somewhat known having played... Jimmy G doesn't even have that. Yes, it makes sense on paper but if it didn't turn out it'd be a PR nightmare. I could see Houston pushing hard for Cousins if Washington lets him hit the open market, whcih is very possible given how much he may be worth. Yes, it would be kind of dumb to pay two QBs a combined 35 million or so... I'm not even sure they can afford it. If Houston can get him for cheaper than a 1st rounder, I think you've hit it on the head. I just don't think that's going to happen with Houston's position in the draft
Cleveland is the best fit. I can see that second round pick being one worthy of giving up, or maybe next year's second round pick. I agree with that.
Boston
Footballguy
Agreed...I don't think they are going to get a #1 (I hope I am wrong)...the only scenario I see where it is possible is Houston if they are desperate but that is a long-shot...
As for Green Bay...it's been a long tome since Hasselbeck and Brooks played there but that is your best-case scenario...in the last decade I just don't think there's a team that fits the bill of consistently developing back-up QBs into future legit QBs...it happens but I don't think any team has a formula to do it consistently...
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
Well, Id argue there were more than those 2 but yes in the last 10 years there hasn't been a team like that where a backup has gone to another team and done exceptionally well. I think after the Matt Flynn and Cassell experiments there aren't a whole lot of teams willing to take that risk on an unproven player.
Boston
Footballguy
I think the biggest issue has been the overpaying of these type of QBs...it is one thing rolling the dice on them (it's easy to see why teams do it in a QB-starved league)...it's another thing doing it with a contract like Osweiler got...that's the killer with these guys...you get killed on the field and with your cap...a guy like Glennon fits this category...there is definite intrigue with him but you may have to give him some real money and if he busts you are saddled with his money...I keep going back to it but the fact is Jimmy G still has a year left on his original deal so if he doesn't work out you don't get killed because you didn't make a long-term investment in him prior to seeing how he actually performs...
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The interesting question is...who is worthy of a 1st?
Brady, Brees or some other aging QB?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Those of you saying "BB would only trade JG if he didn't think he was legit" are probably not correct. Even if BB thought JG was a good (not great) QB I could easily still see him making a move to try and win more super bowls during this next 3 year window with Brady.
Do you have any idea how good JG would have to be to get this team to the super bowl??? It's not like they have great WRs. They have some system guys, and a TE in Gronk who plays half the time.
I would say BB would be more than happy to give up on JG for to be better their chances the next 3 years than to move on from Brady for 10 years of "good" JG.
The chances JG plays anywhere close to Brady's level are basically zero.
Bottom line, I can easily see BB trade JG for good picks so that he doesn't risk losing him after this year, and also to better their chances for this short window they have left with Brady. Trading him in no way shape or form (IMO) is any indication that BB thinks JG isn't very good.
If BB was convinced that JG was the next big thing STUD QB, he would trade Brady..................
Do you have any idea how good JG would have to be to get this team to the super bowl??? It's not like they have great WRs. They have some system guys, and a TE in Gronk who plays half the time.
I would say BB would be more than happy to give up on JG for to be better their chances the next 3 years than to move on from Brady for 10 years of "good" JG.
The chances JG plays anywhere close to Brady's level are basically zero.
Bottom line, I can easily see BB trade JG for good picks so that he doesn't risk losing him after this year, and also to better their chances for this short window they have left with Brady. Trading him in no way shape or form (IMO) is any indication that BB thinks JG isn't very good.
If BB was convinced that JG was the next big thing STUD QB, he would trade Brady..................
jon007
Footballguy
A Garoppolo trade actually makes a lot of sense. Brissett will replace Brady when the time comes. Brissett has ties to Parcells and is why he's on the team.
Here is a great article on why Garoppolo might be worth a 1st.
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/17255219/green-beret-brian-decker-thinks-improve-success-rate-nfl-first-round-draft-picks
Here is a great article on why Garoppolo might be worth a 1st.
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/17255219/green-beret-brian-decker-thinks-improve-success-rate-nfl-first-round-draft-picks
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Thunderlips
Footballguy
What's Jimmy G done to warrant being worthy of a first round draft pick? He's started what....three games in his career? One of them a mop up job at the end of the season?
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Looking at the marketplace:
DAL - No need
PHI - No need
NYG - A potential need in a couple of years.
WAS - Cousins has played well. Should resign him.
MIN - Bradford isn't the answer. Bridgewater might not play again. No first round pick in 17.
CHIC - Has a need.
DET - No need.
GB - No need.
CAR - No need.
NO - Much like NYG. Future need.
TB - No need.
ATL - No need.
STL - No need....but Goff isn't tied to the incoming HC. But they don't have much to trade with.
SF - Has a need.
ARI - Borderline need. Not as desperate as SF/CHI....not as secure as NO/NYG
SEA - No need.
NEP - Potential need in a couple of years.
NYJ - Has a need. Don't think the Pats will trade him within the division.
MIA - No need.
BUF - Same as ST. L
BAL - No need.
CIN - No need.
PIT - No need.
CLE - Need.
JAX- Same as ST.L
TEN - No Need.
INDY - No Need.
HOU - Need.
KC - Not desparate. Future Need/Upgrade
DEN - Need.
SD - NYG/ARZ/NO situation
OAK No need.
DAL - No need
PHI - No need
NYG - A potential need in a couple of years.
WAS - Cousins has played well. Should resign him.
MIN - Bradford isn't the answer. Bridgewater might not play again. No first round pick in 17.
CHIC - Has a need.
DET - No need.
GB - No need.
CAR - No need.
NO - Much like NYG. Future need.
TB - No need.
ATL - No need.
STL - No need....but Goff isn't tied to the incoming HC. But they don't have much to trade with.
SF - Has a need.
ARI - Borderline need. Not as desperate as SF/CHI....not as secure as NO/NYG
SEA - No need.
NEP - Potential need in a couple of years.
NYJ - Has a need. Don't think the Pats will trade him within the division.
MIA - No need.
BUF - Same as ST. L
BAL - No need.
CIN - No need.
PIT - No need.
CLE - Need.
JAX- Same as ST.L
TEN - No Need.
INDY - No Need.
HOU - Need.
KC - Not desparate. Future Need/Upgrade
DEN - Need.
SD - NYG/ARZ/NO situation
OAK No need.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Never really understood this argument. What has any rookie done to deserve being worth a 1st round pick?
Thunderlips
Footballguy
It's been the way of the NFL for as long as I can remember. Picks are worth exponentially more than players....even players who have performed at a fairly high level. You do realize that don't you?
Last six games of 2014 (including their playoff loss to the Colts): 120/201 (60%), 1380 yards, 6 TDs, 6 INTs, 1 fumble lost. He fell off a cliff.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
What do you want? I'm not a GM. I don't know why they feel that way. They just do. Nevermind the idea that an amateur HAS to be picked first because, you know......it's the amateur draft. They've alleviated somewhat the concept of a amateur rookie coming in and making mad money with the slotting system, thus putting more emphasis on value in regards to established players.Excellent answer
And to criticize my answer to your question without answering the original question isn't very conducive to legit conversation....so I ask again. What has JG done to deserve being a first round draft pick?
ETA: I'm sure if there were a situation where veteran FAs were eligible to go back into the draft....there wouldn't always be a rookie at the top of the amateur draft...but since it's the amateur draft......there's always going to be rookies in it.
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Donnybrook
Footballguy
I think Chicago should make that trade.
rockaction
Footballguy
My brother explained this to me. The structure of rookie contracts makes 1st round picks much more valuable. If you trade a first for Garoppolo, you have to extend him about a year later at starting QB money. That's why a first and a fourth is such a reach for this guy. You're giving up a cost-controlled impact starter (presumably) for an unproven QB that's only started three games in the NFL. The only reason teams will do this is that quarterbacking is so valuable that the cost control might be outweighed by the potential to have a franchise QB, something a lot of teams would beg for.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
It's not like the Bears have a history of trading Kyle Orton, two 1st's, and a 3rd for Jay Cutler to Josh McDaniels or anything.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Ugh. had a long reply written and lost it so to summarize.rockaction said:
I dont agree with some of the reasoning here, but I do agree the qb position is so valuable it forces teams to reach sometimes.
1. u dont have to extend Jimmah if u trade for him and can in effect get him on a 1 yr try and buy.
2. even if u have to franchise him in yr 2 u still get him for less money than u would guarantee a high first.
3. your not giving up a cost controlled starter, u r giving up a "potential" cost controlled starter. The real sweet spot is late 1st thru second for draft picks (likely potential vs guaranteed money) so yes if u can get your qb there u r living large, but it is much more hit or miss at that point. Conversely if u take a qb top 10 u have to guarantee a lot more money so imho Jimmahs potential and value right there at end of 1st makes a lot of sense compared to players u can draft there.
Not saying i feel Jimmah is all that and a bag of chips I am not convinced, but i do think he has shown enuf (2nd rd pick, looked good in limited action etc) to warrant late first paxton lynch type value. Looking at draft order, If im clev or bears i think giving the 33 & 65 or 36 and 67 for him would be in consideration.
We shall see...
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
I dont want the Browns to trade for JG, but if they want to, I would really hope that having to sign him to an actual deal rather than a rookie deal would not impact their decision.
I mean, they gotta be like 100 million under the cap for 2017.
I mean, they gotta be like 100 million under the cap for 2017.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Most teams have a difficult time developing one qb into a legit starter. Ravens might have the best recent past with Ty, Flacco and Derek Anderson.Boston said:
There's zero chance the Rams trade for a qb right now. (Literally zero for STL, which you mention 3 times, but hey who cares about LA anyway? )Thunderlips said:
FUBAR
Footballguy
One would think if they wanted jimmy they would have discussed it when they acquired Collins. We don't know if they did (could he have even been traded on the IR?) But the path might already be set.
If you look at the 2 games he started, he performed very well.Thunderlips said:
AZ - 24-33 for 264 yards and 1 TD, 4-12 rushing yards; QB rating of 106.1
MIA - 18-26 for 232 yards and 3 TDs; QB rating of 135.4 (this is before getting injured in late in the 2nd quarter)
Beyond the stats though, he passed the eyeball test. First game against a good defense (fresh out of the gate, no injuries per se), he lead them to a victory. Against Miami, who always plays NE tough, I thought he felt a lot more comfortable, building off of his performance vs. AZ.
Do these two games warrant a 1st? Not necessarily. However, the 1st round pick would be for his performance in these games and, most importantly, his potential.
Boston
Footballguy
The other thing (and this has zero to do with the Pats and far from breaking news) is teams do foolish things when it comes to QBs...whether it is giving up a ton of picks for a rookie or a veteran like Bradford, giving out stupid contracts (Brock is just the latest in this category) or rolling the dice on QBs with limited experience (Brock again) teams get desperate when it comes to this position and will take gambles they may not otherwise do...a GM and/or Coach knows his job security is paper thin if they don't have a legit QB so some will roll the dice with this position if they have no other choice because it's getting real difficult to overcome subpar QB play in today's NFL and you may lose your job anyways...and as they always say...you only need one team to like you...
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Be a very talented rookie. what an odd statement. Are you advocating that no team should make a 1st round pick?ghostguy123 said:
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
rockaction said:
Your brother is pretty astute. Here's what he left out: The NFL now has a book on Garoppolo's play at the NFL level. TC, PS, and some regular season film to study as well as potentially head to head work. A franchise QB would leap off the film and a few teams would be killing themselves to throw a good enough offer at NE. A 1st and a 4th would be a no-brainer. Look at what teams surrender for the 1.01/1.02
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
massraider
Footballguy
He apparently doesn't have any potential either. Jimmy has potential. That's what your trading for.
I wonder if Kizer or Watson, or Tribusky have potential.
massraider
Footballguy
The other way you know this is a manufactured story is the timing.
Week 16 of the regular season. That's when all the hot trade talk goes down, is it? People are getting into specifics like a 1st and a 4th, 3 months before a trade can happen?
Sounds about right.
Week 16 of the regular season. That's when all the hot trade talk goes down, is it? People are getting into specifics like a 1st and a 4th, 3 months before a trade can happen?
Sounds about right.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It seems pretty clear that the 1st and 4th round price tag was pure speculation/a guess by Schefter as to what the Pats could get on the market.
Dedfin
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Spike
Footballguy
I happened to be listening to that sports radio station live when Schefter said this. It was Schefter who initiated it and the Boston announcers on the radio station were surprised Schefter thought it would be so high. Once he said it, they ran with it.
But this is NOT a "**** Boston" move. It came from Schefter.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Watching hard knocks was painful. Case keenum's wife had a better understanding of the Rams playbook than Goff. The kid is an actual moron. Hope he gets over it.
