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That is true, but Manning has always had a ton of talent on offense around him. You have to wonder what numbers guys like Elway and Favre could have put up had they had that kind of talent around them for their entire careers.
Reverse the situation, you're up by 4, time is running out and your opponent is driving at the halfway with a minute to go.Do you choose to send out the 2000s Colts D or the 80s 49ers?
Your right. That might have been interesting. I have always believed the WRs Favre has had were average at best. He made superstars out of players like Freeman. He has always made really good fantasy WRs as well. Now, Elway, I think had better offensive talent around him than Favre. Elway couldn't win one until they had a combo of a great defense with the best RB in the game at that time. For the most part, the stress of having everything resting on the QB had been relieved when Elway finally won his. Granted, he was past his prime but still a damn good QB. By the way, just for the record. I am not sure the Colts even get to the SB if NE doesn't knock off the Chargers, and defense wins championships unless your opponent's QB is named Grossman.
That is true, but Manning has always had a ton of talent on offense around him. You have to wonder what numbers guys like Elway and Favre could have put up had they had that kind of talent around them for their entire careers.
Wally thinks that QB's are the thing that matters most when it comes to titles. Look at the list of Super Bowl winners. 9 out of 10 times the team with the superior defense wins the super bowl. How can the opinion of ex Niners not be biased? You are a fool. You said Montana had a poor cast, I stated his D was number one in the league and yet I hear crickets on that one. If WALSH had coached another team, Montana would not be in this discussion. Do you think Aikman is better than Marino? Aikman played on perhaps the most talented overall squad of all time IMO. Is it Marino's fault that his team always put him in a poor position to win. Answer that one Wally.Defense means nothing ask Wally he will tell you.
You are completely missing the point here... You stated that Young was better than Joe, go back and look if you dont remember... I was refuting your assertion by telling you the feelings of the people who played with both of them, and everyone came to the conclusion that Joe was better, even though Young was great... There opinions should matter in this discusion shouldn't they??? How are they biased against Young??? You then stated that Walsh didnt think Joe was that good, only hard work made him good and the system and blah blah blah, and I am telling you that on several occassions Walsh stated that Joe was the best qb of all time and that he was an amazing athlete....None of this has anything to do with Defenses or how Joe compares to Peyton, that is a seperate argument... I was simply saying that your earlier email about Young being better than Joe and Walsh not thinking Joe was that good was completely baseless and complete conjecture...Wally thinks that QB's are the thing that matters most when it comes to titles. Look at the list of Super Bowl winners. 9 out of 10 times the team with the superior defense wins the super bowl.
How can the opinion of ex Niners not be biased? You are a fool. You said Montana had a poor cast, I stated his D was number one in the league and yet I hear crickets on that one.
If WALSH had coached another team, Montana would not be in this discussion. Do you think Aikman is better than Marino? Aikman played on perhaps the most talented overall squad of all time IMO. Is it Marino's fault that his team always put him in a poor position to win. Answer that one Wally.
He definitely carried them to the playoffs, I can't argue that but it seems to me that the leagues worst rushing defense picked it up a quite a bit once they were in the playoffs and became quite stout... Are we just going to pretend that didnt happen? The defense and the Colts rushing game had everything to do with them finally winning the big one...
The Young statement of mine is based on what they did in the same system. You can think Joe was better than Steve. I just have to say that Young put up much better numbers than Montana in the same system. This is a FACT and can no be refuted. The FACT that this reply is mostly about the Young Montana comparision instead of the matter at hand Peyton Montana is evidence of my ownage of you. Peyton playing with poor to average defenses at best has still not been addressed by you. The 49ers having 3 rookies Joe's first SB is your refute to be saying the 49ers allowed the fewest yards that year. But they weren't dominant. GET OWNED WALLY!!!You are completely missing the point here... You stated that Young was better than Joe, go back and look if you dont remember... I was refuting your assertion by telling you the feelings of the people who played with both of them, and everyone came to the conclusion that Joe was better, even though Young was great... There opinions should matter in this discusion shouldn't they??? How are they biased against Young??? You then stated that Walsh didnt think Joe was that good, only hard work made him good and the system and blah blah blah, and I am telling you that on several occassions Walsh stated that Joe was the best qb of all time and that he was an amazing athlete....None of this has anything to do with Defenses or how Joe compares to Peyton, that is a seperate argument... I was simply saying that your earlier email about Young being better than Joe and Walsh not thinking Joe was that good was completely baseless and complete conjecture...Wally thinks that QB's are the thing that matters most when it comes to titles. Look at the list of Super Bowl winners. 9 out of 10 times the team with the superior defense wins the super bowl.
How can the opinion of ex Niners not be biased? You are a fool. You said Montana had a poor cast, I stated his D was number one in the league and yet I hear crickets on that one.
If WALSH had coached another team, Montana would not be in this discussion. Do you think Aikman is better than Marino? Aikman played on perhaps the most talented overall squad of all time IMO. Is it Marino's fault that his team always put him in a poor position to win. Answer that one Wally.
Well since our SuperBowl is during the season, Manning is the all time greatest FF QB of all time. Can't argue with that.
i have to disagree with favre having worse talent around him than elway. sterling sharpe was a great reciever in his day, unfortunealty his career was cut short. robert brooks wasnt too shabby either. dorsey levens , ahman green where pretty good backs too. elway was his teams offense, sure he had the 3 amigos , but big deal, elway played with marginal offensive talent around him with an average def. elway didnt lose those superbowls, its just the nfc teams were head and shoulders better than the afc during that time. but to keep on topic, to me peyton is better than elway and favre reguardless of the talent around him. to me , peyton mannings qb play in the afc championship game last year against the patriots , had to be the greatest qb performance ever. peyton didnt just have to lead his team one time in the final 2 minutes of a game , he did it almost everytime in the 2nd half against a pretty good team in the patriots.too me manning is up thier with montana. in my opinion, if manning wins 2 more superbowls and combined with his records he will have, he will become the best qb ever. though if brady happens to defeat manning led teams and wins a few more superbowls, the argument would switch to who is better brady or montana
The Young statement of mine is based on what they did in the same system. You can think Joe was better than Steve. I just have to say that Young put up much better numbers than Montana in the same system. This is a FACT and can no be refuted. The FACT that this reply is mostly about the Young Montana comparision instead of the matter at hand Peyton Montana is evidence of my ownage of you. Peyton playing with poor to average defenses at best has still not been addressed by you. The 49ers having 3 rookies Joe's first SB is your refute to be saying the 49ers allowed the fewest yards that year. But they weren't dominant. GET OWNED WALLY!!!You are completely missing the point here... You stated that Young was better than Joe, go back and look if you dont remember... I was refuting your assertion by telling you the feelings of the people who played with both of them, and everyone came to the conclusion that Joe was better, even though Young was great... There opinions should matter in this discusion shouldn't they??? How are they biased against Young??? You then stated that Walsh didnt think Joe was that good, only hard work made him good and the system and blah blah blah, and I am telling you that on several occassions Walsh stated that Joe was the best qb of all time and that he was an amazing athlete....None of this has anything to do with Defenses or how Joe compares to Peyton, that is a seperate argument... I was simply saying that your earlier email about Young being better than Joe and Walsh not thinking Joe was that good was completely baseless and complete conjecture...
How can the opinion of ex Niners not be biased? You are a fool. You said Montana had a poor cast, I stated his D was number one in the league and yet I hear crickets on that one.
If WALSH had coached another team, Montana would not be in this discussion. Do you think Aikman is better than Marino? Aikman played on perhaps the most talented overall squad of all time IMO. Is it Marino's fault that his team always put him in a poor position to win. Answer that one Wally.
I never brought up defenses, you did, I dont really care to discuss who had better defenses, it has no bearing on my argument and never did... You asking me this is as irrelevant as your buddy bringing up the "What defense would you rather have on the field if this situation was reversed" question... That question has nothing to do with what I asked... If my argument was Montana was better because he won more championships than Manning and then you said it's because he had better defenses than fine, but I never said that was why Montana was better... Don't try to make me defend arguments that I never brought up... If your big argument about who is better between Peyton and Joe depends on their defenses than good for you... Your debating skills need a lot of work... You have brought a water pistol to a gun fight.VERY
Agreed.
This is absolutely indisputable. He is without a doubt the greatest fantasy football QB of all time. He is already now and will be when he retires.
you people act like joe montana never laid an egg in his career. he didnt lead his team to victory against the giants in the 1990 championship game, with the 49ers being a better team. montana was great, made things look easy with the dink and dunk , but manning makes things easy without using the dink and dunk game of the west coast offense. manning is the reincarnation of dan marino but better.
Did you miss the interview where Manning said there were "protection issues". That right there is a chump excuse. And he DID say it, even if your head was in the sand at the time.
Call me crazy but it could have had something to do with Jim Burt knocking the hell out of him... Pretty tough to lead a team to the superbowl when you dont know what your name is...
sorry, but Im not giving the guy props for a one yard sneak. lets try and move on beyond the ridiculous at this point. Ive already had to stomach hearing that Steve Young was better than Joe Montana.
terry bradshaw did in the superbowl against the cowboys when he was slammed on his head. hey joe is god,right? i am sure thier will be an excuse everytime he failed
Look, when you get a chance go back and look again at the highlights of that old play known as 'the catch'. We've all seen it a thousand times. The San Fran D was on the sidelines by the way while that was happening. But watch Joe Montana rolling out to the sideline, avoiding that Doomsday D, grace under pressure, and make that unbelievably brillinat pass, and just ask yourself one thing.....could Peyton Manning have made that play? Its a pretty simple answer. And its just a small part of the reason Joe Montana is the greatest QB of all time. Manning has the feet of a duck, and that, as much as that Indy D, is the reason he has only one ring. cleaned up.Sultan of Smut said:
so leading a team to the one yard line means nothing, a meaningless one yd sneak, but if it was a one passing td it would mean something? does 349 yds passing mean anything, or is that trivial too?
give it a rest. I dont see you bringing up the 7 picks he had opposite the 3....oops...4 TDs he had...2 by the way that were returned for TDs.
Nice link. Interesting.
why should i, you have brought it up numerous times already, hey, its common knowledge manning has had more downs than ups in the playoffs, but you are so up montanas butt, that you can't acknowledge the fact that mannings qb play in the afc champship game was pretty damn great in the 2nd half when it really counted. and barring injury, peyton manning will rewrite the record books, and to many will be considered the greatest qb ever.
While we're at it, let's also say that each QB has to balance a glass of water on their head the entire time- without it falling off or spilling a single drop- and they have have to do it blindfolded, while being chased by a herd of wild elephants that have Great White sharks strapped to their backs, just trampling and eating everything in sight. Who ya gonna take then? Montana? Yeah, that's what I thought.
Again, talk to me about the SEVEN INTs....2 returned for TDs....in 4 playoff games last year. There's just no defending it. Im keeping this simple as a Montana to Manning thing. Montana played in 4 Superbowls and never threw an INT. I acknowledge the great performance in the 2nd half of the New England game. But defining someone as the best ever requires some very critical thinking.
actually, i would take elway in his prime. too me elway was the best 2 minute qb ever. i am sure i will get bashed because someone will take offense to that,
Well, being a lifelong Seattle fan, my teams always lose, so I gotta frame this as who would I NOT want to start a drive against my team's defense with two minutes left if they had a lead. Montana would be scary, but I 'd actually say Elway. For some reason, I don't think of Manning as a quarterback making his name for himself from those situations. I picture him on the sidelines wearing a trendy baseball cap looking at the scoreboard around that time.
listen, i am not saying peyton manning is better than montana. if you read my earlier post, i said, if manning wins 2 more superbowls and thats a big if, he will probably be considered the greatest qb ever, because 3 superbowls and all the qbs records will be a good sell as being considered the greatest qb
so then hypthetically, what IF Brady wins 2 more Superbowls? greatest ever? Brady is 30. And he's probably going to win atleast one more ring. But we just cant factor in possible championships. If Manning wins 2 titles, well, without throwing SEVEN picks during those runs, then Im sure some will then consider him the greatest ever. Let's let him win a couple of more titles though before we really compare him to Joe Montana. Because right now, its really not much of an arguement.
Manning has better receivers than Montana did also, imo. Sure, Rice was the greatest, but John Taylor wasn't Reggie Wayne. Montana also won two without Rice.
exactly, that was what my original post was about. thier is no argument at the moment, montana trumps manning whether he has the passing records or not, manning needs more rings to prove he was a pressure winning qb. one ring and one great afc champ performance isnt enough. now if brady wins 2 more and beats manning led teams i think brady will end up trumping montana by beating the great peyton.
and having more rings
Did it ever occur to you that maybe Manning makes Wayne, Harrison, and formally Stokely look pretty good? Favre and Elway had plenty of talent around them. Terrell Davis and Rod Smith in his prime come to mind. Favre had Ahman Green in his prime, and Sterling Sharpe was pretty good. I'm sure I'm missing many, but this whole idea about Manning and his talent is crazy talk.That is true, but Manning has always had a ton of talent on offense around him. You have to wonder what numbers guys like Elway and Favre could have put up had they had that kind of talent around them for their entire careers.
Elway was pretty bad early in his career and how bad did he suck in the Super Bowls before he got Terrell Davis,? Plus he was already old to boot before he won one.
Manning absolutely makes those guys look better. Its reciprocal.....neither would be quite as great without the other. But, I wouldnt exactly call it 'crazy talk'. Rod Smith was a nice player. Always an overachiever. But never even drafted, and never considered to be one of the best. TD was obviously underrated coming out of college because of the migraines and clearly should have been drafted higher, but a very late draft pick nevertheless. Manning has had a 1st round LT, 3 1st round WRs, a 1st round TE, and 2 1st round RBs. That's alot invested in an O. Man, that is crazy talk.Did it ever occur to you that maybe Manning makes Wayne, Harrison, and formally Stokely look pretty good? Favre and Elway had plenty of talent around them. Terrell Davis and Rod Smith in his prime come to mind. Favre had Ahman Green in his prime, and Sterling Sharpe was pretty good. I'm sure I'm missing many, but this whole idea about Manning and his talent is crazy talk.That is true, but Manning has always had a ton of talent on offense around him. You have to wonder what numbers guys like Elway and Favre could have put up had they had that kind of talent around them for their entire careers.
Rod Smith and Terrell Davis were elite players at their position. I don't give a damn what what round they were drafted in, or whether one was undrafted.Manning absolutely makes those guys look better. Its reciprocal.....neither would be quite as great without the other. But, I wouldnt exactly call it 'crazy talk'. Rod Smith was a nice player. Always an overachiever. But never even drafted, and never considered to be one of the best. TD was obviously underrated coming out of college because of the migraines and clearly should have been drafted higher, but a very late draft pick nevertheless. Manning has had a 1st round LT, 3 1st round WRs, a 1st round TE, and 2 1st round RBs. That's alot invested in an O. Man, that is crazy talk.Did it ever occur to you that maybe Manning makes Wayne, Harrison, and formally Stokely look pretty good? Favre and Elway had plenty of talent around them. Terrell Davis and Rod Smith in his prime come to mind. Favre had Ahman Green in his prime, and Sterling Sharpe was pretty good. I'm sure I'm missing many, but this whole idea about Manning and his talent is crazy talk.That is true, but Manning has always had a ton of talent on offense around him. You have to wonder what numbers guys like Elway and Favre could have put up had they had that kind of talent around them for their entire careers.
lets by realistic here, by far manning has played with better offensive talent than elway ever had.its not even a close argument ,hell manning started his career with marshall fault at rbRod Smith and Terrell Davis were elite players at their position. I don't give a damn what what round they were drafted in, or whether one was undrafted.Manning absolutely makes those guys look better. Its reciprocal.....neither would be quite as great without the other. But, I wouldnt exactly call it 'crazy talk'. Rod Smith was a nice player. Always an overachiever. But never even drafted, and never considered to be one of the best. TD was obviously underrated coming out of college because of the migraines and clearly should have been drafted higher, but a very late draft pick nevertheless. Manning has had a 1st round LT, 3 1st round WRs, a 1st round TE, and 2 1st round RBs. That's alot invested in an O. Man, that is crazy talk.Did it ever occur to you that maybe Manning makes Wayne, Harrison, and formally Stokely look pretty good? Favre and Elway had plenty of talent around them. Terrell Davis and Rod Smith in his prime come to mind. Favre had Ahman Green in his prime, and Sterling Sharpe was pretty good. I'm sure I'm missing many, but this whole idea about Manning and his talent is crazy talk.That is true, but Manning has always had a ton of talent on offense around him. You have to wonder what numbers guys like Elway and Favre could have put up had they had that kind of talent around them for their entire careers.
