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Superstar veterans are allowed to sit out preseason if they want. Do you really think that a rookie would endear himself to his teamates by sitting out preseason games due to fathom injuries? Do you think the coaches would allow this?I would buy your argument if KJ was a top 5 pick and the Lions had no rushing attack. But he was a bottom of the 1st round pick, so he'll have to come in and prove himself, and the Lions have Artose Pinner!
and the Falcons rush D is ranked #2...what do the Pats have to do with anything?We're suppose to eat crow because Pinner averaged just less than 3 ypc?oh, and the Pats rush D is ranked #15.
Sorry for the partial double post. It somehow posted the first line when i hit prview.
My bad. got my games mixed up. (this is what happens when you watch too many games on too little sleep)but still point remains, 2.95 ypc is not something to be ecstatic about.and the Falcons rush D is ranked #2...what do the Pats have to do with anything?We're suppose to eat crow because Pinner averaged just less than 3 ypc?
Sorry for the partial double post. It somehow posted the first line when i hit prview.
KJ's 3 starts this year:1. 26 yards, 0 TDs(opponent: Chicago, 18th ranked rush defense)2. 57 yards, 0 TDs(opponent: Houston, 26th ranked rush defense)3. 8 yards, 0 TDs(opponent: Philly, 6th ranked rush defense)Pinner's 1 start:68 yards, 1 TD(opponent: Atlanta, 1st ranked rush defense)link for rush defense stats: http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-...ar?sort_col_1=7So...............does everyone still think that KJ is the better back?
Lol...I didn't even make an argument! In order for you to attack my 'logic', I have to be using logic to make an argument. All I did was post their numbers and then ask who everyone thougth the better back was. How can you possibly argue with numbers? For the life of me, I can't understand this. The numbers speak for themselves!
So was it KJ's 8 yard day, his 26 yard day, or his 'breakout' 57 rush yards against one of the worst rush defenses in the league that has you thinking that hes so much better than Pinner.Guys....I realize that Pinner's numbers from yesterday aren't great. But you have to realize two things: 1.Detroit's o-line is marginal at best, especially at run blocking and 2.THE FALCONS ARE THE BEST RUSH DFENSE IN THE LEAGUEWhat did you expect? His numbers are very very respectable from yesterday, and it was easily more impressive than KJ, whom countless people swore would outproduce Pinner this year!
In a word...YES. The only difference was that Pinner scored a TD from the 2 yard line that took him three chances to punch in. Granted, he got it in, but Jones hasn't had that opportunity yet.To say that all need to eat crow seems to be a stretch. It sounds like the Griffin arguement after week one without the fabulous runs and 150+ yards and 3 tds. It's only one game and he averaged under 3 yards a carry! Like I said, he is a solid backup in the NFL who can come in and play. He doesn't have the talent of Jones who would have broke 1 or 2 of those runs for Tds in my opinion instead of being caught from behind.In fact, if anyone has to eat crow around here it's you. You predicted 150 total yards if I recall. What happened to that?
What is it with you and Artose Pinner? Aren't there other backs with more talent that you could be wasting your time on? Even if Pinner somehow becomes a serviceable back, do you realize how silly you look constantly pimping the same guy? It's unnatural to have that type of affection for 1 player.
Uh, no, I would guess he would not have. From KJ's games so far, no way he beats the Atlanta defense for much more than what Pinner got. You guys should pay closer attention to the fact that Pinner's accomplishment came against ATLANTA. Somebody name me a RB who has run for more than Pinner against Atlanta and included a TD. Answer: no one. Now someone argue against me that KJ is better than these backs: Foster, Barlow, Faulk, E.Smith. I'll concede the argument against Smith, but the other three against Atlanta? C'mon, stop this nonsense.jwvdcw, you should probably put that crow pie on hold though. San Diego won't be a push over either.
Jvwdcw is to Artose Pinner what George Jefferson is to William GreenWhat is it with you and Artose Pinner? Aren't there other backs with more talent that you could be wasting your time on? Even if Pinner somehow becomes a serviceable back, do you realize how silly you look constantly pimping the same guy? It's unnatural to have that type of affection for 1 player.
I predicted 150 total yards and a score or two.He got about 80 total yardsa and a score...I underestimated Atlanta's rush defense. They really are a great rush D.Bottom line is that I've said all along that Pinner is better than KJ. Its not only one game...its 4 games that Pinner has shown this.The only difference is the TD? Ummm no.....the difference is also that in one start against the #1 rush D, he rushed for more yards than KJ has in any of 3 starts including two against very poor rush defenses.
Thank you.'KJ would've broke a few long runs and had a better day' is the most ridiculous statement I've heard. Where do you get all of this KJ-hype from? Why? What has he proven? Why do you suddenly think that after performances of 8, 26, and 57 yards that KJ would suddenly do so much better against the best rush D in the league?
I love how you attack my logic,, and then when I point out that its just facts, you suddenly don't mention it anymore.As for my "Pinner love." I stand by all of my predictions. Going into this year, I was really sure of 3 things:-T jones as a top 10 RB barring injury-Pinner would outproduce KJ-Holt was overvalued.I'll argue all of these points with a lot of zeal...thats just how I am when I feel strongly about something.What is it with you and Artose Pinner? Aren't there other backs with more talent that you could be wasting your time on? Even if Pinner somehow becomes a serviceable back, do you realize how silly you look constantly pimping the same guy? It's unnatural to have that type of affection for 1 player.
Gosh its frusterating having to repeat myself so many times.....I'm not saying that Pinner's performance was amazing. I am saying that it was a very good performance against the top ranked rush defense. To get 14 or so fantasy points against the #1 rush defense is the mark of a stud back imo. Meanwhile, KJ has shown absolutely nothing at all against poor rush defenses.Yet you all act like I'm crazy for thinking Pinner is a very good back...what evidence does anyone have that KJ is a good back? Or even a marginal back for that matter?
One game against Atlanta and his paltry ypc doesn't tell us much about who is better. Kevin Jones has already had 1 TD called back and hasn't gotten the goal line carries yet. He also has 10 times the speed and talent as your "partner". Your 1 game avg against Atl is not that great of an example of anything. Again, your quick posting of anything Pinner does, or doesn't do is scaryI love how you attack my logic,, and then when I point out that its just facts, you suddenly don't mention it anymore.As for my "Pinner love." I stand by all of my predictions. Going into this year, I was really sure of 3 things:-T jones as a top 10 RB barring injury-Pinner would outproduce KJ-Holt was overvalued.I'll argue all of these points with a lot of zeal...thats just how I am when I feel strongly about something.What is it with you and Artose Pinner? Aren't there other backs with more talent that you could be wasting your time on? Even if Pinner somehow becomes a serviceable back, do you realize how silly you look constantly pimping the same guy? It's unnatural to have that type of affection for 1 player.
Ok, fine. Heres my viewpoint:All throughout preseason I stated that Pinner was the better RB. I was laughed at. People kept saying "Detroit loves KJ. They're not even playing him in preseason because they know hes so good." I adamently stuck by Pinner. In all of my Pinner threads, I DON'T REMEMBER ONE SINGLE PERSON AGREEING WITH ME THAT PINNER WOULD OUTPRODUCE KJ. I even got about 5 people wanting to bet me money that KJ would be better.Well, can we at least agree that Pinner has performed better SO FAR? Can we at least agree that many here were foolish to totally dismiss Pinner? Can we at least agree that I was not all that far off at all in stating that Pinner was the better back? The only reason I make such a big thing about one little game is because of how much I was attacked for even suggesting that Pinner would be better in the preseason.One game against Atlanta and his paltry ypc doesn't tell us much about who is better. Kevin Jones has already had 1 TD called back and hasn't gotten the goal line carries yet. He also has 10 times the speed and talent as your "partner". Your 1 game avg against Atl is not that great of an example of anything. Again, your quick posting of anything Pinner does, or doesn't do is scaryI love how you attack my logic,, and then when I point out that its just facts, you suddenly don't mention it anymore.As for my "Pinner love." I stand by all of my predictions. Going into this year, I was really sure of 3 things:-T jones as a top 10 RB barring injury-Pinner would outproduce KJ-Holt was overvalued.I'll argue all of these points with a lot of zeal...thats just how I am when I feel strongly about something.What is it with you and Artose Pinner? Aren't there other backs with more talent that you could be wasting your time on? Even if Pinner somehow becomes a serviceable back, do you realize how silly you look constantly pimping the same guy? It's unnatural to have that type of affection for 1 player.
I've seen most of every Lions (and VT) game, and I think Jones is the better runner, period. Stats don't really factor into it. By your reasoning Tomlinson's backup Chatman is a stud, after all he badly outproduced LT and against a tough Jax D. Jones hasn't produced yet, but simply put Pinner isn't the answer---and maybe Jones isn't either, but he has a way bigger upside than Artose IMO. Like I said before, Bryson looked liked the better back yesterday vs. a tough run D. I would imagine even Kevin Jones could equal Pinner's 2.9 ypc by falling down on every carry.
Would we even be talking about this if Jones wasn't hurt? That is like saying "I told you Mewelde Moore was the best back on Minn". Pinner is only on the field because Jones is hurt. Now if Jones gets healthy and Pinner is the man in Detroit, crow from the rooftops. I don't see it.Ok, fine. Heres my viewpoint:All throughout preseason I stated that Pinner was the better RB. I was laughed at. People kept saying "Detroit loves KJ. They're not even playing him in preseason because they know hes so good." I adamently stuck by Pinner. In all of my Pinner threads, I DON'T REMEMBER ONE SINGLE PERSON AGREEING WITH ME THAT PINNER WOULD OUTPRODUCE KJ. I even got about 5 people wanting to bet me money that KJ would be better.Well, can we at least agree that Pinner has performed better SO FAR? Can we at least agree that many here were foolish to totally dismiss Pinner? Can we at least agree that I was not all that far off at all in stating that Pinner was the better back? The only reason I make such a big thing about one little game is because of how much I was attacked for even suggesting that Pinner would be better in the preseason.One game against Atlanta and his paltry ypc doesn't tell us much about who is better. Kevin Jones has already had 1 TD called back and hasn't gotten the goal line carries yet. He also has 10 times the speed and talent as your "partner". Your 1 game avg against Atl is not that great of an example of anything. Again, your quick posting of anything Pinner does, or doesn't do is scaryI love how you attack my logic,, and then when I point out that its just facts, you suddenly don't mention it anymore.As for my "Pinner love." I stand by all of my predictions. Going into this year, I was really sure of 3 things:-T jones as a top 10 RB barring injury-Pinner would outproduce KJ-Holt was overvalued.I'll argue all of these points with a lot of zeal...thats just how I am when I feel strongly about something.What is it with you and Artose Pinner? Aren't there other backs with more talent that you could be wasting your time on? Even if Pinner somehow becomes a serviceable back, do you realize how silly you look constantly pimping the same guy? It's unnatural to have that type of affection for 1 player.
So you're a VT homer, huh?Look, if you read some more of my preseason threads, you'll see that I never said Pinner had better speed/power or was a better natural runner than KJ. However, I alwasy maintained that Pinner had better technique, vision, patience, and all those intangiable that the coaches love.Your LT2/Chattman comparison is way off. First off all, LT2 would have to have not run for over 100 yards all year(as KJ has not topped 68 rush yards all year). Secondly, the jury would still have to be out on LT2, which it is not as we know he is a star.
Did you watch the whole game? Or did you read the stats on ESPN? Did you see the holes that were there for both Bryson and Pinner in that game? Or did you see the highlights on Sportscenter? I am guessing that you didn't see the game because anyone who did saw the holes that the line opened up for the first time all year. They overpowered the defensive front on run blocking but got beat with their speed to the outside several times. All I am saying is that Jones would have broken two of those runs where Pinner got caught from behind. It's my opinion. Pinner IS an average back who can contribute. But you have to admit, going on your logic, then Bryson is the better back because he had a better day yesterday with less carries? Stats aren't everything...
Talk about ridiculous! Like your hype of Pinner hasn't been the most overexagerrated estimation since day one! You didn't even know what round he was drafted in. Just look up his profile on ESPN and it will tell you.Jones had proven enough to be a first round pick and win the starting job over Pinner. Remember that. You keep talking about him like he is the unquestioned starter and everyone is ignoring Pinner, the next great back for the Lions! Move over Barry, because here comes Harold Pinner??? Yeah, that's what the announcers called him yesterday because they didn't know who he was..gimme a break...
I thought it was a complete joke and I'm shocked to see he was serious. Pinner is a servicable back, but if he was so great why did the Lions trade up to get him in the first round? Also, Pinner got the starting job by default because of KJ's injury, not by earning. If you've really watched both play I don't see how you can say what you are saying unless you are
Pinner has done a good job in his first start. Why argue with that? It's ridiculous for you and JonnyU to be so definitive that KJ would have had better stats than what Pinner got. You two seem to believe that KJ would have walked throught those "holes" and danced into the end zone. Bryson? Give me a break. You guys are making a god out of KJ just the way jwvdcw is making a god out of Pinner. KJ has done absolutely nothing to live up to this hype yet. I have not seen KJ play yet, only on very limited highlight films on espn, so I'll take your word for it that he has more talent than Pinner does. Luckily I was in Vegas this past weekend and was able to watch the Detroit game, which is usually not played here in the West coast. In the end it's like somone else said earlier, this is just like all the Q Griffin threads after week 1. We'll see how Pinner produces going forward.
Yeah, I'm the one that said that earlier about Griffin. And Pinner had no where near the game that Griffin had that first week. If you have seen both Pinner and Jones play, you see why Jones won the job. That's all I'm saying. Pinner is average and can do the job. He is a poor man's James Stewart but that doesn't fit the offense as the feature back. KJ has the talent and speed to be an elite back in this league. Will he? Time will tell as with any prospect but clearly Jones has the higher ceiling...
Yes I did watch a lot of the game(I was flipping between a bunch of games though so not all of it).Thats such a cop out...oh so the same line that was mediocre against poor rush defenses earlier, now all of a sudden is the reason for Pinner's success agianst the league's best rushing defense. I'm willing to wait a few more weeks for Pinner to prove himself before I say its definite, but at least you have to admit that Pinner has outperformed KJ so far and hes played a much tougher rush defense.
My statement in many other threads was(and I quote): "Thomas Jones will be a top 10 RB next year and maybe evne top 5".Thanks for taking that way out of context.I love how you do that. "Top 5" magically becomes "Top 10" "Watch a stud in the making" transforms into "I don't think he'll do all that well for this game" Have you considered a career in politics?You're right because the top 10 RBs always stay the same from year to year
KJ has proven enough to be a 1st round pick? Ohhhh no! Theres some accomplishment. What has he proven in the NFL? Nothing.And don't tell me that KJ beat out Pinner in preseason. The coaching staff gave him the job...KJ barely even played in the preseason.
I'm not disputing that the Lion's coaching staff seems to favor KJ. They did trade up to get him, and they appear determined to play him, even though Pinner is playing better.I thought it was a complete joke and I'm shocked to see he was serious. Pinner is a servicable back, but if he was so great why did the Lions trade up to get him in the first round? Also, Pinner got the starting job by default because of KJ's injury, not by earning. If you've really watched both play I don't see how you can say what you are saying unless you are
great great post.Can people realize that I'm not saying Pinner is a top 5 back or anything that ridiculous though. I do think that he is a stud back though that is better than KJ.People get caught up in speed and strength. They fail to realize intangiables and 'football smarts.'
I have watched 2 of the 3 games in which KJ played. Please explain to me what you're seeing that I'm not.He had something like 14 carries for 26 yards in his debut, then had 57 yards against one of hte worst rush Ds in the leauge, then had 8 yards....I saw both of the first two games....What on earth are you seeing that I"m not?With Pinner, on the other hand, I see a back without the measureables, but one who has succeeded on every level in his career and who gets the tough yards against tough opponents. I don't buy this "Well the Detroit line just suddenly played a lot better" crap.
Then prove me wrong!Bottom line is this: I stuck out my neck in the preseason by going against pretty much everyone. KJ was a 3rd round draft choice, while Pinner went undrafted in many leagues.
I have yet to see anything out of either suggesting they are anything close to a stud. Either one has played well enough to be a mediocre RB2, although Jones has not had a game to himself yet (and quite possibly wont get one with Mooch, barring injury). With the injuries to the Lions passing game, I can only think defenses will be able to further key on the running game. Doesnt look good. A stud back (LT2, Lewis) would be able to overcome such problems to some extent and produce decent-good numbers. Neither one of these guys is good enough to do that at this point in their careers.
I think the opposite. The cream rises to the top in the NFL and players that have every mental and personality aspect you could ever want in a player get their doors blown off by the elite physical specimens that have 'it'. You might earn yourself a niche with some superior physical trait like blazing speed (Bennett) or leg strength (Bettis) but superior 'football smarts' isnt going to do it.
