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Pinner to get all of the carries w/ the 1st string (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jwvdcw
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Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for meHis 23/68 is proof I'm wrong and I humbly apologize for suggesting KJ is better than Pinner. Are you OK with that? Happy?
Hurons
Footballguy
You said " I'm not saying that pinner is an amazing talent"...but you said (at the start of this thread) "Watch and you'll see a stud in the making. "Correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't a stud at least have amazing talent? Or can a plyer with average talent be a stud?You flip flop more than....get off Pinner...he is a decent back up RB....Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
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If you read above, you'll see that I wrote that I saw the first two Lions games but missed the third. Therefore, when I saw Pinner getting the majority of the carries, I assumed that was because KJ got benched(he was playing horribly, while Pinner was playing better). I was wrong. I apologize for making that assumption.KJ outperformed Pinner before he hurt his ankle?Game 1: KJ- 15 for 36(2.4avg), Pinner-5 for 21(4.2avg)Game2: KJ- 12 for 57(4.8), Pinner-6 for 19(3.2)Game 3: KJ- 4 for 8(2.0), Pinner-6 for 16(2.7)Overall: KJ- 31 for 101(3.25), Pinner-17 for 56(3.29)And you're telling me to "check the stats"??? I love how bad I'm making some people look here! You're telling me that KJ played better and to check that stats! This is hilarious.
I've said all along that Pinner is a 15-20th ranked RB if getting playing time, which in my book is a stud. The point of this thread, actually was to give everyone the heads up that they may be able to get a 2nd-3rd round talent late in their drafts, but everyone just bashed me for it. How am I flip flopping?I have never ever said in any thread that Pinner will be top 10 or anything like that. I have said that about T Jones, however.You said " I'm not saying that pinner is an amazing talent"...but you said (at the start of this thread) "Watch and you'll see a stud in the making. "You flip flop more than....get off Pinner...he is a decent back up RB....Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
still waiting.............Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
Hurons
Footballguy
Burn your book if a top 20 RB is a studI've said all along that Pinner is a 15-20th ranked RB if getting playing time, which in my book is a stud. The point of this thread, actually was to give everyone the heads up that they may be able to get a 2nd-3rd round talent late in their drafts, but everyone just bashed me for it. How am I flip flopping?I have never ever said in any thread that Pinner will be top 10 or anything like that. I have said that about T Jones, however.You said " I'm not saying that pinner is an amazing talent"...but you said (at the start of this thread) "Watch and you'll see a stud in the making. "You flip flop more than....get off Pinner...he is a decent back up RB....Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
boonesfarm4me
Footballguy
with all this said this is the week to start pinner vs GBs horrible defense with roy williams probably not playing with his ankle issue. KJ is still ailing. I think pinner will have a great game this week. KJ seems like the better RB but Pinner now has his shot to show what he can do while KJ's hurt. Its way too soon to write off KJ b/c he really hasn't played this year. I'm hoping Pinner steps up b/c he's riding pine as my #3/4th RB.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Like one poster has already said, he outplayed him in the preseason. Even though Pinner led the SEC in rushing his senior year, Kevin Jones had a better college career. You can't take 1 game and make it into something special. I will say that your right about Pinner against Atl, but that isn't good enough reasoning that Pinner should start. It's not like Pinner set the woods on fire either. Against the same teams that KJ played against, Pinner is 17/56. Jones hasn't done any better with 31/101, but you can't scoff at KJ's performance against those teams when Pinner sucked against the same teams, and all you have to go on is 1 game against Atlanta where Pinner was 23/68. Who's to say KJ wouldn't have done better? I'm not saying he would have, but your statistics aren't robust enough to make the kind of statements you are making.Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
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Heres what I already said on that issue:" know we all have different definitions of the word 'stud', so I'd thought I'd clarify mine just so nobody else takes my statements out of context. In my opinion, anyone worth a 2nd round draft choice, which is where a RB in that ranking will go, is a stud...please don't debate this, as its simply a matter of semantics and I really don't feel like getting in a pointless argument over this issue). "I refuse to argue over semantics. If a 2nd-3rd round draft choice(where top 15-20 RBs go) isn't a stud to you, then fine. I can handle that. I'm really not going to argue this issue, as its totally a matter of semantics.Burn your book if a top 20 RB is a studI've said all along that Pinner is a 15-20th ranked RB if getting playing time, which in my book is a stud. The point of this thread, actually was to give everyone the heads up that they may be able to get a 2nd-3rd round talent late in their drafts, but everyone just bashed me for it. How am I flip flopping?I have never ever said in any thread that Pinner will be top 10 or anything like that. I have said that about T Jones, however.You said " I'm not saying that pinner is an amazing talent"...but you said (at the start of this thread) "Watch and you'll see a stud in the making. "You flip flop more than....get off Pinner...he is a decent back up RB....Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
Care to back that up?KJ before injury: 31 carries 101 yards = 3.26 ypc
Pinner in the SAME games: 17 carries 56 yards = 3.29 ypc
Since how they look is an objective objective opinion, let's see some numbers.
I'm not trying to side with jwvdcw here. I just want someone to speak up who can back up KJ without the statement "he looks better" or "Pinner looks slower that molases". If you are an NFL scout or a coach, I may take those statement into consideration.
Hurons
Footballguy
give me a break...There are what 32 teams in the NFL and thus 32 starting RB's with a baseline of 16 being average Thus the 16th bset back, or a decent #2 is a stud? Talk all you want about semantics, but a average starting RB is not a stud no matter how you slice it.As far as giving people a "heads up" thanks for the wonderful insight on back up RB's. All back up RB's last late into the draft....Why didnt you tell us about Haynes, Taylor, or Lee...all who have every bit of upside as you buddy pinner. Let it go dude...its ok not to be right...we are not scouts.......even the scouts mess up..Heres what I already said on that issue:" know we all have different definitions of the word 'stud', so I'd thought I'd clarify mine just so nobody else takes my statements out of context. In my opinion, anyone worth a 2nd round draft choice, which is where a RB in that ranking will go, is a stud...please don't debate this, as its simply a matter of semantics and I really don't feel like getting in a pointless argument over this issue). "I refuse to argue over semantics. If a 2nd-3rd round draft choice(where top 15-20 RBs go) isn't a stud to you, then fine. I can handle that. I'm really not going to argue this issue, as its totally a matter of semantics.Burn your book if a top 20 RB is a studI've said all along that Pinner is a 15-20th ranked RB if getting playing time, which in my book is a stud. The point of this thread, actually was to give everyone the heads up that they may be able to get a 2nd-3rd round talent late in their drafts, but everyone just bashed me for it. How am I flip flopping?I have never ever said in any thread that Pinner will be top 10 or anything like that. I have said that about T Jones, however.You said " I'm not saying that pinner is an amazing talent"...but you said (at the start of this thread) "Watch and you'll see a stud in the making. "You flip flop more than....get off Pinner...he is a decent back up RB....Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
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Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
LOL, JonnyU, I hear your point loud and clear.
A fair argument. Thank you for actually making one instead of insulting me like many. I will give each of your statmens a reply:"Like one poster has already said, he outplayed him in the preseason and during the regular season minus game he missed due to injury. "This is incorrect. You even state the rush stats later on in your post- Pinner has a higher YPC! In the preseason, KJ barely played. I refuse to argue over preason though anyway, as I don't think it matters much. If you want to say that KJ outperformed Pinner in the regular season, fine....I"ll buy that, but I don't think it matters at all. Pinner has outperformed KJ in the regular season according to the stats in nearly every rushing area(yards, YPC, TDs)."Even though Pinner led the SEC in rushing his senior year, Kevin Jones had a better college career."First of all, this is very debatable. Second of all, Jones had a much much better supporting cast. Third of all, Jones played in a weaker league. Fourth of all, I don't care much about college, as Ron Dayne, Gino Torretta, and Demond Howard were all great college players. I will give you that KJ had a better college CAREER,as Pinner really didn't blossom until his senior year, but I will put Pinner's senior year up against any of KJ's college years. All in all, though, I don't think college matters much, so I'm not going to argue adamently here."You can't take 1 game and make it into something special."I'm not...I'm taking 4 games, although I will still admit thats a small sample size. I think it would be different if after a few games, I suddenly started jumping on the Pinner bandwagon(that would be too small a sample size). But when I already believe Pinner was better, and then he goes out and outperforms Jones in the first 4 games, that just re-enforces my belief." will say that your right about Pinner against Atl,"Thank you. I appriciate your willingness to be fair here."but that isn't good enough reasoning that Pinner should start. "No...but I think that coupled with KJ's terrible(thats right, terrible) start to the season should be. But I'm not the Detroit coaching staff, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did play KJ."It's not like Pinner set the woods on fire either. Against the same teams that KJ played against, Pinner is 17/56. Jones hasn't done any better with 31/101, but you can't scoff at KJ's performance against those teams when Pinner sucked against the same teams"Yes, I agree that Pinner didn't do much either. I believe that Pinner needs more of a featured role to really 'get into the game' and be a big producer. In his one start, he proved me right. Is that a fluke? Pehaps, but so far, so good."Pinner was 23/68. Who's to say KJ wouldn't have done better?"Anyone can say that, but if a guy rushes for 101 yards(average of 33) against 3 much worse run defenses, what would ever lead you to believe he will double that against the best rush defense in the league? Could it have happened? Sure. Likely? Not according to the stats.All in all, I'm not really conviced that KJ is better than Pinner.Like one poster has already said, he outplayed him in the preseason and during the regular season minus game he missed due to injury. Even though Pinner led the SEC in rushing his senior year, Kevin Jones had a better college career. You can't take 1 game and make it into something special. I will say that your right about Pinner against Atl, but that isn't good enough reasoning that Pinner should start. It's not like Pinner set the woods on fire either. Against the same teams that KJ played against, Pinner is 17/56. Jones hasn't done any better with 31/101, but you can't scoff at KJ's performance against those teams when Pinner sucked against the same teams, and all you have to go on is 1 game against Atlanta where Pinner was 23/68. Who's to say KJ wouldn't have done better? I'm not saying he would have, but your statistics aren't robust enough to make the kind of statements you are making.Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
Rayderr
Footballguy
Unfortunantly strict basic statistics are pretty much useless in the NFL as there are way too many variables.Case in point, yesterday in the Seattle/St. Louis gameShaun Alexander averaged 6.52 ypcMack Strong averaged 6.33 ypcDoes that mean Mack Strong is almost equal to Shaun Alexander?Let's go to Tampa.Pittman averaged 3.4 ypcMichael Clayton averaged 12 ypcDoes that mean they should move Clayton from WR to RB?
I said I'm done arguing about the definition of 'stud' and I stand by that.Fine. I agree with you.A top 15-20 back is not a stud. Therefore, Pinner, while I believe he would be top 15-20, would not be a 'stud' under my new definition. Happy now? Can we please get back to the real argument now, which is KJ vs Pinner?give me a break...There are what 32 teams in the NFL and thus 32 starting RB's with a baseline of 16 being average Thus the 16th bset back, or a decent #2 is a stud? Talk all you want about semantics, but a average starting RB is not a stud no matter how you slice it.As far as giving people a "heads up" thanks for the wonderful insight on back up RB's. All back up RB's last late into the draft....Why didnt you tell us about Haynes, Taylor, or Lee...all who have every bit of upside as you buddy pinner. Let it go dude...its ok not to be right...we are not scouts.......even the scouts mess up..Heres what I already said on that issue:" know we all have different definitions of the word 'stud', so I'd thought I'd clarify mine just so nobody else takes my statements out of context. In my opinion, anyone worth a 2nd round draft choice, which is where a RB in that ranking will go, is a stud...please don't debate this, as its simply a matter of semantics and I really don't feel like getting in a pointless argument over this issue). "I refuse to argue over semantics. If a 2nd-3rd round draft choice(where top 15-20 RBs go) isn't a stud to you, then fine. I can handle that. I'm really not going to argue this issue, as its totally a matter of semantics.Burn your book if a top 20 RB is a studI've said all along that Pinner is a 15-20th ranked RB if getting playing time, which in my book is a stud. The point of this thread, actually was to give everyone the heads up that they may be able to get a 2nd-3rd round talent late in their drafts, but everyone just bashed me for it. How am I flip flopping?I have never ever said in any thread that Pinner will be top 10 or anything like that. I have said that about T Jones, however.You said " I'm not saying that pinner is an amazing talent"...but you said (at the start of this thread) "Watch and you'll see a stud in the making. "You flip flop more than....get off Pinner...he is a decent back up RB....Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
JohnnyU, please remember that Pinner was also a great college player. He only dropped in the draft due to injury and personal concerns.And its not like tons of 'great' backs that came from teams with powerhouse offenses havn't flopped in the NFL. I happen to think that Jones was more a product of the system than a great back. I also think that Pinner is underrated and deserves the starting role.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Look, neither back has really done anything yet. What's worse is that you are basing your entire argument on the Atl game in which Pinner DIDN'T LOOK GOOD !!! Remember, Pinner sucked the same against the same "worse defenses" you mentioned.A fair argument. Thank you for actually making one instead of insulting me like many. I will give each of your statmens a reply:"Like one poster has already said, he outplayed him in the preseason and during the regular season minus game he missed due to injury. "This is incorrect. You even state the rush stats later on in your post- Pinner has a higher YPC! In the preseason, KJ barely played. I refuse to argue over preason though anyway, as I don't think it matters much. If you want to say that KJ outperformed Pinner in the regular season, fine....I"ll buy that, but I don't think it matters at all. Pinner has outperformed KJ in the regular season according to the stats in nearly every rushing area(yards, YPC, TDs)."Even though Pinner led the SEC in rushing his senior year, Kevin Jones had a better college career."First of all, this is very debatable. Second of all, Jones had a much much better supporting cast. Third of all, Jones played in a weaker league. Fourth of all, I don't care much about college, as Ron Dayne, Gino Torretta, and Demond Howard were all great college players. I will give you that KJ had a better college CAREER,as Pinner really didn't blossom until his senior year, but I will put Pinner's senior year up against any of KJ's college years. All in all, though, I don't think college matters much, so I'm not going to argue adamently here."You can't take 1 game and make it into something special."I'm not...I'm taking 4 games, although I will still admit thats a small sample size. I think it would be different if after a few games, I suddenly started jumping on the Pinner bandwagon(that would be too small a sample size). But when I already believe Pinner was better, and then he goes out and outperforms Jones in the first 4 games, that just re-enforces my belief." will say that your right about Pinner against Atl,"Thank you. I appriciate your willingness to be fair here."but that isn't good enough reasoning that Pinner should start. "No...but I think that coupled with KJ's terrible(thats right, terrible) start to the season should be. But I'm not the Detroit coaching staff, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did play KJ."It's not like Pinner set the woods on fire either. Against the same teams that KJ played against, Pinner is 17/56. Jones hasn't done any better with 31/101, but you can't scoff at KJ's performance against those teams when Pinner sucked against the same teams"Yes, I agree that Pinner didn't do much either. I believe that Pinner needs more of a featured role to really 'get into the game' and be a big producer. In his one start, he proved me right. Is that a fluke? Pehaps, but so far, so good."Pinner was 23/68. Who's to say KJ wouldn't have done better?"Anyone can say that, but if a guy rushes for 101 yards(average of 33) against 3 much worse run defenses, what would ever lead you to believe he will double that against the best rush defense in the league? Could it have happened? Sure. Likely? Not according to the stats.All in all, I'm not really conviced that KJ is better than Pinner.Like one poster has already said, he outplayed him in the preseason and during the regular season minus game he missed due to injury. Even though Pinner led the SEC in rushing his senior year, Kevin Jones had a better college career. You can't take 1 game and make it into something special. I will say that your right about Pinner against Atl, but that isn't good enough reasoning that Pinner should start. It's not like Pinner set the woods on fire either. Against the same teams that KJ played against, Pinner is 17/56. Jones hasn't done any better with 31/101, but you can't scoff at KJ's performance against those teams when Pinner sucked against the same teams, and all you have to go on is 1 game against Atlanta where Pinner was 23/68. Who's to say KJ wouldn't have done better? I'm not saying he would have, but your statistics aren't robust enough to make the kind of statements you are making.Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
Hurons
Footballguy
When you started this thread with a statement.The statement was "Pinner a stud in the making"that was the topic.....Now it's Pinner is better than Jones? Which is it Mr jWKerry?I said I'm done arguing about the definition of 'stud' and I stand by that.Fine. I agree with you.A top 15-20 back is not a stud. Therefore, Pinner, while I believe he would be top 15-20, would not be a 'stud' under my new definition. Happy now? Can we please get back to the real argument now, which is KJ vs Pinner?give me a break...There are what 32 teams in the NFL and thus 32 starting RB's with a baseline of 16 being average Thus the 16th bset back, or a decent #2 is a stud? Talk all you want about semantics, but a average starting RB is not a stud no matter how you slice it.As far as giving people a "heads up" thanks for the wonderful insight on back up RB's. All back up RB's last late into the draft....Why didnt you tell us about Haynes, Taylor, or Lee...all who have every bit of upside as you buddy pinner. Let it go dude...its ok not to be right...we are not scouts.......even the scouts mess up..Heres what I already said on that issue:" know we all have different definitions of the word 'stud', so I'd thought I'd clarify mine just so nobody else takes my statements out of context. In my opinion, anyone worth a 2nd round draft choice, which is where a RB in that ranking will go, is a stud...please don't debate this, as its simply a matter of semantics and I really don't feel like getting in a pointless argument over this issue). "I refuse to argue over semantics. If a 2nd-3rd round draft choice(where top 15-20 RBs go) isn't a stud to you, then fine. I can handle that. I'm really not going to argue this issue, as its totally a matter of semantics.Burn your book if a top 20 RB is a studI've said all along that Pinner is a 15-20th ranked RB if getting playing time, which in my book is a stud. The point of this thread, actually was to give everyone the heads up that they may be able to get a 2nd-3rd round talent late in their drafts, but everyone just bashed me for it. How am I flip flopping?I have never ever said in any thread that Pinner will be top 10 or anything like that. I have said that about T Jones, however.You said " I'm not saying that pinner is an amazing talent"...but you said (at the start of this thread) "Watch and you'll see a stud in the making. "You flip flop more than....get off Pinner...he is a decent back up RB....Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
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Lol at comparing a WR's reverse to a RB. Most all WRs will average over 5 YPC only because they are so rare that they surprise the defense.Concerning Strong and Alexander...no, we shouldn't overract to one game. But if Strong had a higher YPC than Alexander in games they both played and then when Alexander gets hurt, Strong puts up more yards and TDs than Alexander has ever put up in one game....then yes, I'd consider playing Strong.
I don't think 80 total yards and a TD against the #1 rush defense is bad, though!You really think thats bad? How many RBs in the league do you think get those numbers(14 FF points) against the best rush defense in the league on a consistent basis?KJ has looked horrible. Pinner has looked a little better, but its a lot better when you consider how good of a defense he was playing.I don't think you're taking the Atl defense into consideration here.I will agree with you that neither has proven a whole lot yet.Look, neither back has really done anything yet. What's worse is that you are basing your entire argument on the Atl game in which Pinner DIDN'T LOOK GOOD !!! Remember, Pinner sucked the same against the same "worse defenses" you mentioned.A fair argument. Thank you for actually making one instead of insulting me like many. I will give each of your statmens a reply:"Like one poster has already said, he outplayed him in the preseason and during the regular season minus game he missed due to injury. "This is incorrect. You even state the rush stats later on in your post- Pinner has a higher YPC! In the preseason, KJ barely played. I refuse to argue over preason though anyway, as I don't think it matters much. If you want to say that KJ outperformed Pinner in the regular season, fine....I"ll buy that, but I don't think it matters at all. Pinner has outperformed KJ in the regular season according to the stats in nearly every rushing area(yards, YPC, TDs)."Even though Pinner led the SEC in rushing his senior year, Kevin Jones had a better college career."First of all, this is very debatable. Second of all, Jones had a much much better supporting cast. Third of all, Jones played in a weaker league. Fourth of all, I don't care much about college, as Ron Dayne, Gino Torretta, and Demond Howard were all great college players. I will give you that KJ had a better college CAREER,as Pinner really didn't blossom until his senior year, but I will put Pinner's senior year up against any of KJ's college years. All in all, though, I don't think college matters much, so I'm not going to argue adamently here."You can't take 1 game and make it into something special."I'm not...I'm taking 4 games, although I will still admit thats a small sample size. I think it would be different if after a few games, I suddenly started jumping on the Pinner bandwagon(that would be too small a sample size). But when I already believe Pinner was better, and then he goes out and outperforms Jones in the first 4 games, that just re-enforces my belief." will say that your right about Pinner against Atl,"Thank you. I appriciate your willingness to be fair here."but that isn't good enough reasoning that Pinner should start. "No...but I think that coupled with KJ's terrible(thats right, terrible) start to the season should be. But I'm not the Detroit coaching staff, and I wouldn't be surprised if they did play KJ."It's not like Pinner set the woods on fire either. Against the same teams that KJ played against, Pinner is 17/56. Jones hasn't done any better with 31/101, but you can't scoff at KJ's performance against those teams when Pinner sucked against the same teams"Yes, I agree that Pinner didn't do much either. I believe that Pinner needs more of a featured role to really 'get into the game' and be a big producer. In his one start, he proved me right. Is that a fluke? Pehaps, but so far, so good."Pinner was 23/68. Who's to say KJ wouldn't have done better?"Anyone can say that, but if a guy rushes for 101 yards(average of 33) against 3 much worse run defenses, what would ever lead you to believe he will double that against the best rush defense in the league? Could it have happened? Sure. Likely? Not according to the stats.All in all, I'm not really conviced that KJ is better than Pinner.Like one poster has already said, he outplayed him in the preseason and during the regular season minus game he missed due to injury. Even though Pinner led the SEC in rushing his senior year, Kevin Jones had a better college career. You can't take 1 game and make it into something special. I will say that your right about Pinner against Atl, but that isn't good enough reasoning that Pinner should start. It's not like Pinner set the woods on fire either. Against the same teams that KJ played against, Pinner is 17/56. Jones hasn't done any better with 31/101, but you can't scoff at KJ's performance against those teams when Pinner sucked against the same teams, and all you have to go on is 1 game against Atlanta where Pinner was 23/68. Who's to say KJ wouldn't have done better? I'm not saying he would have, but your statistics aren't robust enough to make the kind of statements you are making.Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
My statement was that Pinner is a stud in the making.You didn't agree with my definition of stud.So I changed my statement to avoid a silly, meaningless debate of the definition of the word 'stud'.When you started this thread with a statement.The statement was "Pinner a stud in the making"that was the topic.....Now it's Pinner is better than Jones? Which is it Mr jWKerry?I said I'm done arguing about the definition of 'stud' and I stand by that.Fine. I agree with you.A top 15-20 back is not a stud. Therefore, Pinner, while I believe he would be top 15-20, would not be a 'stud' under my new definition. Happy now? Can we please get back to the real argument now, which is KJ vs Pinner?give me a break...There are what 32 teams in the NFL and thus 32 starting RB's with a baseline of 16 being average Thus the 16th bset back, or a decent #2 is a stud? Talk all you want about semantics, but a average starting RB is not a stud no matter how you slice it.As far as giving people a "heads up" thanks for the wonderful insight on back up RB's. All back up RB's last late into the draft....Why didnt you tell us about Haynes, Taylor, or Lee...all who have every bit of upside as you buddy pinner. Let it go dude...its ok not to be right...we are not scouts.......even the scouts mess up..Heres what I already said on that issue:" know we all have different definitions of the word 'stud', so I'd thought I'd clarify mine just so nobody else takes my statements out of context. In my opinion, anyone worth a 2nd round draft choice, which is where a RB in that ranking will go, is a stud...please don't debate this, as its simply a matter of semantics and I really don't feel like getting in a pointless argument over this issue). "I refuse to argue over semantics. If a 2nd-3rd round draft choice(where top 15-20 RBs go) isn't a stud to you, then fine. I can handle that. I'm really not going to argue this issue, as its totally a matter of semantics.Burn your book if a top 20 RB is a studI've said all along that Pinner is a 15-20th ranked RB if getting playing time, which in my book is a stud. The point of this thread, actually was to give everyone the heads up that they may be able to get a 2nd-3rd round talent late in their drafts, but everyone just bashed me for it. How am I flip flopping?I have never ever said in any thread that Pinner will be top 10 or anything like that. I have said that about T Jones, however.You said " I'm not saying that pinner is an amazing talent"...but you said (at the start of this thread) "Watch and you'll see a stud in the making. "You flip flop more than....get off Pinner...he is a decent back up RB....Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
Absolutely right Rayderr. I wasn't implying that at all. But again, how do you compare two players without the stats? As much as this thread is being ridiculed due to jwvdcw's enthusiasm for Pinner, at least his arguments thus far has been "stud in the making". I do not share the level of this enthusiasm, but th fact remains that Pinner, whether he is a better athlete/runner or not, has outperformed Kevin Jones during the season. Convince me that this is not true with facts, not opinions.
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
:rotflmao:FINALLY !!! YOU say something I agree with !!!
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
Finally, a breath of fresh air...
Look guys, lets stop arguing semantics and try to find a concrete statement to stand on. It doesnt matter how you classify Pinner, it matters how well he performs in relation to other backs in the league. Thats his value.So lets play a little devils advocate and suppose Pinner somehow wins the feature job, what is his total upside? Of the following backs, which would you start Pinner ahead of:1 RB 1 LaDainian Tomlinson SD/10 2350 2 RB 2 Priest Holmes KC/5 2300 3 RB 3 Ahman Green GB/9 2174 4 RB 4 Shaun Alexander Sea/4 2085 6 RB 5 Edgerrin James Ind/6 1918 7 RB 6 Chris Brown Ten/9 1841 8 RB 7 Clinton Portis Was/7 1768 10 RB 8 Curtis Martin NYJ/3 1634 11 RB 9 Brian Westbrook Phi/5 1572 12 RB 10 Thomas Jones Chi/5 1513 14 RB 11 Domanick Davis Hou/7 1404 15 RB 12 Tiki Barber NYG/6 1353 17 RB 13 Corey Dillon NE/3 1259 21 RB 14 Fred Taylor Jac/9 1097 22 RB 15 Jamal Lewis Bal/6 1062 23 RB 16 Rudi Johnson Cin/5 1028 24 RB 17 Marshall Faulk StL/8 996 27 RB 18 Deuce McAllister NO/8 906 28 RB 19 Kevan Barlow SF/7 878 30 RB 20 Warrick Dunn Atl/9 828 34 RB 21 Travis Henry Buf/3 759 36 RB 22 Lee Suggs Cle/8 732 37 RB 23 Quentin Griffin Den/10 719 40 RB 24 Duce Staley Pit/7 682 43 RB 25 Stephen Davis Car/3 648 45 RB 26 Michael Pittman TB/8 627 Personally given the choice the only RB i'd bench in favor of Pinner would be Griffin and possibly Barlow. Maybe Pittman, I havent been paying attention to him. That puts Pinner at RB23, at best. Knowing he'll be splitting carries again when KJ gets back knocks him back considerably. Thoughts?
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Facts:1.I said Pinner was better than KJ in the preseaon2.Almost everyone agreed with me.3.Pinner has a higher YPC than KJ in games they've both played.4.Pinner has more TDs5.Pinner has more yards6.Pinner put up the only performance that could actually be useful for a FF team and he did it against the #1 rush defense in the league.
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
I agree with this post but...this is getting nowhere...jw has been arguing for Pinner since the summer when Jones outperformed him there. He argued for him in the spot duty he got where he had less ypc in the 1st three games than Jones and said Pinner was outperforming him...Like one poster has already said, he outplayed him in the preseason. Even though Pinner led the SEC in rushing his senior year, Kevin Jones had a better college career. You can't take 1 game and make it into something special. I will say that your right about Pinner against Atl, but that isn't good enough reasoning that Pinner should start. It's not like Pinner set the woods on fire either. Against the same teams that KJ played against, Pinner is 17/56. Jones hasn't done any better with 31/101, but you can't scoff at KJ's performance against those teams when Pinner sucked against the same teams, and all you have to go on is 1 game against Atlanta where Pinner was 23/68. Who's to say KJ wouldn't have done better? I'm not saying he would have, but your statistics aren't robust enough to make the kind of statements you are making.Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
I think the stupid Detroit coaching staff will continue to make this RBBC, so I wouldn't play Pinner over any of those guys if both are healthy.However, next week, KJ might be out. If so, I would play Pinner over 1/2 of those guys. If he can put up 14 FF points against the best rush D, he will put up at least 20 against the Packers imo. He'll be a nice fill in next week, but look to trade while his value is high, as if both are healthy, I don't think either will produce, until the coaching staff comes to their senses and sees that KJ is a bust.
ILoveMyLions
Footballguy
Good argument.
For the last time: Pinner had a higher YPC than Jones in the first 3 games! I have posted this several time(along with the stats) as has Pigskin! Gosh its frusterating to post something multiple times and still have someone overlook what you're saying.PINNER HAD A HIGHER YPC THAN JONES IN THE FIRST THREE GAMES!!!!!!!I agree with this post but...this is getting nowhere...jw has been arguing for Pinner since the summer when Jones outperformed him there. He argued for him in the spot duty he got where he had less ypc in the 1st three games than Jones and said Pinner was outperforming him...Like one poster has already said, he outplayed him in the preseason. Even though Pinner led the SEC in rushing his senior year, Kevin Jones had a better college career. You can't take 1 game and make it into something special. I will say that your right about Pinner against Atl, but that isn't good enough reasoning that Pinner should start. It's not like Pinner set the woods on fire either. Against the same teams that KJ played against, Pinner is 17/56. Jones hasn't done any better with 31/101, but you can't scoff at KJ's performance against those teams when Pinner sucked against the same teams, and all you have to go on is 1 game against Atlanta where Pinner was 23/68. Who's to say KJ wouldn't have done better? I'm not saying he would have, but your statistics aren't robust enough to make the kind of statements you are making.Why the eyerolls?Is 68 yards against the best rush defense in the leauge not better than 57 yards against the #26 ranked rush defense?I'M NOT SAYING THAT PINNER IS AN AMAZING TALENT THAT IS GOING TO PUT UP 100+ YARDS AND MULTIPLE TDS EVERY WEEK. I'M JUST SAYING THAT HES BETTER THAN KJ AND THAT IF THE COACHING STAFF WOULD REALIZE THAT AND PLAY HIM, HE'D BE A TOP 15-20 RB.You keep avoiding the issue. In the past you acccuse me of not really believing what I'm typing. Before that many people were throwing out wild speculatory statements like "Well even though KJ did much worse when he played, I think he would've rushed for more than Pinner yesterday." Now you're being sarcastic and rolling your eyes.HOW ABOUT WE STOP ALL OF THE SARCASM, PERSONAL ACCUSATIONS, AND WILD SPECULATION. Explain to me why you think KJ is better?Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.The floor is all yours(or anyone else who wants to try)...and I promise to go into reading your argument with as open mind as I can have.Ok, your right. That Atlanta game did it for me
Oh ok, sorry. I'd put him 15-20 with an upside of 10 if Harrington conitnues to improve.I think that if Pinner got all of the carries, he would produce more than all of these guys on your list:34 RB 21 Travis Henry Buf/3 759 36 RB 22 Lee Suggs Cle/8 732 37 RB 23 Quentin Griffin Den/10 719 40 RB 24 Duce Staley Pit/7 682 43 RB 25 Stephen Davis Car/3 648 45 RB 26 Michael Pittman TB/8 627 28 RB 19 Kevan Barlow SF/7 87823 RB 16 Rudi Johnson Cin/5 1028 24 RB 17 Marshall Faulk StL/8 996 (will get injured eventually, so I'd rather have Pinner)14 RB 11 Domanick Davis Hou/7 1404 11 RB 9 Brian Westbrook Phi/5 1572 8 RB 7 Clinton Portis Was/7 1768
I
ianfitzy
Guest
Why are you so damn high on Pinner? Is this just a little gig your playing to get attention? Pinner is a good backup RB but not starting material.
-Pinner is a stud in the making- This all depends upon the definition of stud. My definition is that any 2nd/3rd round pick is a stud, so I'd say a top 20 RB is a stud. If you don't believe this, then obviously you can modify my statment to fit your definition of stud.-KJ is a bust- I stand by this statement. Prove me wrong.-The Detroit coaching staff is stupid. I was clearly just speaking about their decision to start KJ over Pinner, but I obviously don't think I'm smarter than them. Just as people critisize Mike Martz but they probably don't think that they could do a better job coaching the Rams. Perhaps I overstated here, as I'm just a little frusterated by their stubborness in playing KJ. I can admit that I was wrong to say that though. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong.Lets see what you have saidinner is a stud in the makingJones is a bustThe Detroit Lions (3-1) coaches are stupid.
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
I think that you have the burden of proof here. Barring strong evidence to the contrary, the default position is that the higher drafted player chosen by his coaches as the starter is the better player. Until Pinner outperforms KJ I'll stick with that default position.To date, Pinner hasn't outperformed KJ. Based on games where they both got carries, Pinner's YPC and KJ's are virtually identical (3.29 for Pinner, 3.26 for KJ).
supa mann
Footballguy
I should have drank the Pinner kool-aid this week and listened to some of his pimps. Forced to start either Pinner, Griffin or Wells........I decided to go with the hot hand (Wells). Also helping me to make my decision was the email update stating Wells should see a significant number of carries....DOH.
Hurons, all you have done is made personal attacks and gotten stats wrong(ironically in the same post you tell me to 'check the stats' which totally hurts your credibility).Calling me a joker...petty personal attack. I'm not going to respond to that.You then told me that KJ has a higher YPC in the games him a Pinner played in and I should check my stats. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: So are you going to add anything at all to this thread? Please, stop the petty insults and provide me with some good analysis. I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong. Show me why. Prove to me that KJ has played better so far than Pinner.What is so absurd that I would want a guaranteed healthy and starting Pinner(that was the scernario I was given) over a huge injury concern like Faulk? I'd rather take the sure thing. Its not like Faulk has been great this year or anything.add "I would rather have Pinner than Faulk" to the plethora of brilliant comments this joker has made!Please take your keyboard and throw it in the garbage....Lets see what you have said
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