Pinner to get all of the carries w/ the 1st string (1 Viewer)

[jwvdcw]

Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.

I think that you have the burden of proof here. Barring strong evidence to the contrary, the default position is that the higher drafted player chosen by his coaches as the starter is the better player. Until Pinner outperforms KJ I'll stick with that default position.To date, Pinner hasn't outperformed KJ. Based on games where they both got carries, Pinner's YPC and KJ's are virtually identical (3.29 for Pinner, 3.26 for KJ).

I've already given my argument many times. 1.Pinner did indeed outprode KJ in those games, albeit slightly. We can't really draw a big conclusion here, especially since Pinner barely got any touches. 2.But where we can compare is when KJ starts and gets a lot of carries and when Pinner starts and gets a lot of carries. In his one start, against the league's #1 defense, Pinner put up 15 fantasy points. KJ put up 5 fantasy points in his best game, which was against the league's #26 ranked rush defense.3.Heres another way to think about it: KJ has put up 8 yards and 0 TDs(0 fantasy points), 56 yards and 0 TDs(5 fantasy points), and 26 yards and 0 TDs(2 fantasy points). I think he also has like 3 fantasy points for receiving, but I'm not positive. Thats a total of 10 fantasy points in 3 starts. Pinner has 15 fantasy points(1 pt more for his 11 yards receiving) in his one start and that was against the #1 ranked defense.Is this absolute proof that Pinner is better? No of course not, its only 4 games. But does it show that Pinner has played better so far? Yes, it does.I believe that if you want to say that the guy with the worse stats is better then you have the burden of proof on who! Sometimes you could point out that your guy has had a tougher opponent- but here its the exact opposite as Pinner played the #1 rush defense. In short, I don't really see how you can make an argument for KJ.

 

[jwvdcw]

You people aruging for KJ are like the people saying that Big Ben is a better real life QB than Tom Brady. Just not true.

 

[jwvdcw]

Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.

I think that you have the burden of proof here. Barring strong evidence to the contrary, the default position is that the higher drafted player chosen by his coaches as the starter is the better player. Until Pinner outperforms KJ I'll stick with that default position.To date, Pinner hasn't outperformed KJ. Based on games where they both got carries, Pinner's YPC and KJ's are virtually identical (3.29 for Pinner, 3.26 for KJ).

I knew the particulars on the YPC and laughed when he made a point about it, but was too lazy to post it. I thought, what's the use.

I wasn't making a huge deal out of it.But the thing is, people like Hurons were actually saying that KJ had a higher YPC. Some people just have no clue what they're talking about. Thats why I had to bring it up.I will agree that they're very similar, and Pinner is only very very slightly better in that area.

 

[JohnnyU]

Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.

I think that you have the burden of proof here. Barring strong evidence to the contrary, the default position is that the higher drafted player chosen by his coaches as the starter is the better player. Until Pinner outperforms KJ I'll stick with that default position.To date, Pinner hasn't outperformed KJ. Based on games where they both got carries, Pinner's YPC and KJ's are virtually identical (3.29 for Pinner, 3.26 for KJ).

I've already given my argument many times. 1.Pinner did indeed outprode KJ in those games.2.In his one start, against the league's #1 defense, Pinner put up 15 fantasy points. KJ put up 5 fantasy points in his best game, which was against the league's #26 ranked rush defense.3.Heres another way to think about it: KJ has put up 8 yards and 0 TDs(0 fantasy points), 56 yards and 0 TDs(5 fantasy points), and 26 yards and 0 TDs(2 fantasy points). I think he also has like 3 fantasy points for receiving, but I'm not positive. Thats a total of 10 fantasy points in 3 starts. Pinner has 15 fantasy points(1 pt more for his 11 yards receiving) in his one start and that was against the #1 ranked defense.Is this absolute proof that Pinner is better? No of course not, its only 4 games. But does it show that Pinner has played better so far? Yes, it does.I believe that if you want to say that the guy with the worse stats is better then you have the burden of proof on who! Sometimes you could point out that your guy has had a tougher opponent- but here its the exact opposite as Pinner played the #1 rush defense. In short, I don't really see how you can make an argument for KJ.

Like you said, and I paraphrase, neither has done anything to write home to mamma about. It doesn't matter, because as soon as KJ is healthy, 'Tose goes to the pine. I'm sure KJ will appreciate 'Tose fetching him some Gatorade from time to time.

 

[ianfitzy]

So your comparing Artose Pinner to Tom Brady?Which would be roughly equivalent to comparing Pinner to Terrell Davis?I want what your smoking.

 

[Donnybrook]

Has anybody else notice this tread in Detroit RB carries? 15 out of Pinner’s 20 or so carries against Atlanta were up the middle. Jones carries are usually off guard or off tackle ie towards the outside. Not too surprising considering these are considered to be the respective strengths of each back. IMO, Jones will still get the bulk of the carries but Pinner may get more of the short yardage work.

 

[jwvdcw]

So your comparing Artose Pinner to Tom Brady?Which would be roughly equivalent to comparing Pinner to Terrell Davis?I want what your smoking.

No, not even remotely.I'm comparing the people in this arguement to that one. Thats all.

 

[Pigskin Fanatic]

So your comparing Artose Pinner to Tom Brady?Which would be roughly equivalent to comparing Pinner to Terrell Davis?I want what your smoking.

No more pissing in this thread unless you got something of substance to offer. That's not what he said. Read it again.

 

[jwvdcw]

Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.

I think that you have the burden of proof here. Barring strong evidence to the contrary, the default position is that the higher drafted player chosen by his coaches as the starter is the better player. Until Pinner outperforms KJ I'll stick with that default position.To date, Pinner hasn't outperformed KJ. Based on games where they both got carries, Pinner's YPC and KJ's are virtually identical (3.29 for Pinner, 3.26 for KJ).

I've already given my argument many times. 1.Pinner did indeed outprode KJ in those games.2.In his one start, against the league's #1 defense, Pinner put up 15 fantasy points. KJ put up 5 fantasy points in his best game, which was against the league's #26 ranked rush defense.3.Heres another way to think about it: KJ has put up 8 yards and 0 TDs(0 fantasy points), 56 yards and 0 TDs(5 fantasy points), and 26 yards and 0 TDs(2 fantasy points). I think he also has like 3 fantasy points for receiving, but I'm not positive. Thats a total of 10 fantasy points in 3 starts. Pinner has 15 fantasy points(1 pt more for his 11 yards receiving) in his one start and that was against the #1 ranked defense.Is this absolute proof that Pinner is better? No of course not, its only 4 games. But does it show that Pinner has played better so far? Yes, it does.I believe that if you want to say that the guy with the worse stats is better then you have the burden of proof on who! Sometimes you could point out that your guy has had a tougher opponent- but here its the exact opposite as Pinner played the #1 rush defense. In short, I don't really see how you can make an argument for KJ.

Like you said, and I paraphrase, neither has done anything to write home to mamma about. It doesn't matter, because as soon as KJ is healthy, 'Tose goes to the pine. I'm sure KJ will appreciate 'Tose fetching him some Gatorade from time to time.

I won't argue that the Detroit coaching staff will play KJ over Pinner. They used(wasted?) a high pick on him and want him to play. That doesn't change my opinion that Pinner is better.

 

[Evilgrin72]

OK, here's a fresh take. You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust. The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. Come on. Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards? Ridiculous. I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance. No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD. I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers. The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat. Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous. However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better. Time will tell. Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games. Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game. Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

 

[jwvdcw]

Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.

I think that you have the burden of proof here. Barring strong evidence to the contrary, the default position is that the higher drafted player chosen by his coaches as the starter is the better player. Until Pinner outperforms KJ I'll stick with that default position.To date, Pinner hasn't outperformed KJ. Based on games where they both got carries, Pinner's YPC and KJ's are virtually identical (3.29 for Pinner, 3.26 for KJ).

I've already given my argument many times. 1.Pinner did indeed outprode KJ in those games.2.In his one start, against the league's #1 defense, Pinner put up 15 fantasy points. KJ put up 5 fantasy points in his best game, which was against the league's #26 ranked rush defense.3.Heres another way to think about it: KJ has put up 8 yards and 0 TDs(0 fantasy points), 56 yards and 0 TDs(5 fantasy points), and 26 yards and 0 TDs(2 fantasy points). I think he also has like 3 fantasy points for receiving, but I'm not positive. Thats a total of 10 fantasy points in 3 starts. Pinner has 15 fantasy points(1 pt more for his 11 yards receiving) in his one start and that was against the #1 ranked defense.Is this absolute proof that Pinner is better? No of course not, its only 4 games. But does it show that Pinner has played better so far? Yes, it does.I believe that if you want to say that the guy with the worse stats is better then you have the burden of proof on who! Sometimes you could point out that your guy has had a tougher opponent- but here its the exact opposite as Pinner played the #1 rush defense. In short, I don't really see how you can make an argument for KJ.

Like you said, and I paraphrase, neither has done anything to write home to mamma about. It doesn't matter, because as soon as KJ is healthy, 'Tose goes to the pine. I'm sure KJ will appreciate 'Tose fetching him some Gatorade from time to time.

Although, let me add that I do think 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense is indeed something to write home about. Nobody here seems to be taking the Atl defense into consideration. If my RB is playing the #1 rush D, I would be more than happy with 15 points.

 

[JohnnyU]

Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.

I think that you have the burden of proof here. Barring strong evidence to the contrary, the default position is that the higher drafted player chosen by his coaches as the starter is the better player. Until Pinner outperforms KJ I'll stick with that default position.To date, Pinner hasn't outperformed KJ. Based on games where they both got carries, Pinner's YPC and KJ's are virtually identical (3.29 for Pinner, 3.26 for KJ).

I've already given my argument many times. 1.Pinner did indeed outprode KJ in those games.2.In his one start, against the league's #1 defense, Pinner put up 15 fantasy points. KJ put up 5 fantasy points in his best game, which was against the league's #26 ranked rush defense.3.Heres another way to think about it: KJ has put up 8 yards and 0 TDs(0 fantasy points), 56 yards and 0 TDs(5 fantasy points), and 26 yards and 0 TDs(2 fantasy points). I think he also has like 3 fantasy points for receiving, but I'm not positive. Thats a total of 10 fantasy points in 3 starts. Pinner has 15 fantasy points(1 pt more for his 11 yards receiving) in his one start and that was against the #1 ranked defense.Is this absolute proof that Pinner is better? No of course not, its only 4 games. But does it show that Pinner has played better so far? Yes, it does.I believe that if you want to say that the guy with the worse stats is better then you have the burden of proof on who! Sometimes you could point out that your guy has had a tougher opponent- but here its the exact opposite as Pinner played the #1 rush defense. In short, I don't really see how you can make an argument for KJ.

Like you said, and I paraphrase, neither has done anything to write home to mamma about. It doesn't matter, because as soon as KJ is healthy, 'Tose goes to the pine. I'm sure KJ will appreciate 'Tose fetching him some Gatorade from time to time.

I won't argue that the Detroit coaching staff will play KJ over Pinner. They used(wasted?) a high pick on him and want him to play. That doesn't change my opinion that Pinner is better.

I wouldn't want to change your opinion

 

[Pigskin Fanatic]

Has anybody else notice this tread in Detroit RB carries? 15 out of Pinner’s 20 or so carries against Atlanta were up the middle. Jones carries are usually off guard or off tackle ie towards the outside. Not too surprising considering these are considered to be the respective strengths of each back. IMO, Jones will still get the bulk of the carries but Pinner may get more of the short yardage work.

I started a post about this earlier but got lost in something else. Pinner was an outside runner who was converted to a power runner in college. Here is a question for you Lions fans who watch the games:(a) What exactly is KJ's running style? From what I've read and heard he is definitely not a power runner and likes to bounce outside.(b) What kind of running plays do they call when KJ is in the game? Sweeps? Draws?Let's see if I can get some real answers from this thread.

 

[Hurons]

Look guys, lets stop arguing semantics and try to find a concrete statement to stand on. It doesnt matter how you classify Pinner, it matters how well he performs in relation to other backs in the league. Thats his value.So lets play a little devils advocate and suppose Pinner somehow wins the feature job, what is his total upside? Of the following backs, which would you start Pinner ahead of:1 RB 1 LaDainian Tomlinson SD/10 2350 2 RB 2 Priest Holmes KC/5 2300 3 RB 3 Ahman Green GB/9 2174 4 RB 4 Shaun Alexander Sea/4 2085 6 RB 5 Edgerrin James Ind/6 1918 7 RB 6 Chris Brown Ten/9 1841 8 RB 7 Clinton Portis Was/7 1768 10 RB 8 Curtis Martin NYJ/3 1634 11 RB 9 Brian Westbrook Phi/5 1572 12 RB 10 Thomas Jones Chi/5 1513 14 RB 11 Domanick Davis Hou/7 1404 15 RB 12 Tiki Barber NYG/6 1353 17 RB 13 Corey Dillon NE/3 1259 21 RB 14 Fred Taylor Jac/9 1097 22 RB 15 Jamal Lewis Bal/6 1062 23 RB 16 Rudi Johnson Cin/5 1028 24 RB 17 Marshall Faulk StL/8 996 27 RB 18 Deuce McAllister NO/8 906 28 RB 19 Kevan Barlow SF/7 878 30 RB 20 Warrick Dunn Atl/9 828 34 RB 21 Travis Henry Buf/3 759 36 RB 22 Lee Suggs Cle/8 732 37 RB 23 Quentin Griffin Den/10 719 40 RB 24 Duce Staley Pit/7 682 43 RB 25 Stephen Davis Car/3 648 45 RB 26 Michael Pittman TB/8 627 Personally given the choice the only RB i'd bench in favor of Pinner would be Griffin and possibly Barlow. Maybe Pittman, I havent been paying attention to him. That puts Pinner at RB23, at best. Knowing he'll be splitting carries again when KJ gets back knocks him back considerably. Thoughts?

I think the stupid Detroit coaching staff will continue to make this RBBC, so I wouldn't play Pinner over any of those guys if both are healthy.However, next week, KJ might be out. If so, I would play Pinner over 1/2 of those guys. If he can put up 14 FF points against the best rush D, he will put up at least 20 against the Packers imo. He'll be a nice fill in next week, but look to trade while his value is high, as if both are healthy, I don't think either will produce, until the coaching staff comes to their senses and sees that KJ is a bust.

Lets see what you have saidinner is a stud in the makingJones is a bustThe Detroit Lions (3-1) coaches are stupid.

add "I would rather have Pinner than Faulk" to the plethora of brilliant comments this joker has made!Please take your keyboard and throw it in the garbage....

Hurons, all you have done is made personal attacks and gotten stats wrong(ironically in the same post you tell me to 'check the stats' which totally hurts your credibility).Calling me a joker...petty personal attack. I'm not going to respond to that.You then told me that KJ has a higher YPC in the games him a Pinner played in and I should check my stats. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: So are you going to add anything at all to this thread? Please, stop the petty insults and provide me with some good analysis. I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong. Show me why. Prove to me that KJ has played better so far than Pinner.What is so absurd that I would want a guaranteed healthy and starting Pinner(that was the scernario I was given) over a huge injury concern like Faulk? I'd rather take the sure thing. Its not like Faulk has been great this year or anything.

Pinner is god.....check the stats on that...that is about as reliable as comparing the initial 2 games of the season....2 games in which the RB's stats were skewed by a lack of touches. Any astute fantasy owner, or math teacher, would never call either of these two player either a stud, or a bust, based on such a small sample of touches……although you somehow managed to reach that conclusion, based on the small sample of stats, before any seasoned owner has….Pinner is the first to get 20 carries and he lit it up alright.....his YPC was identical to his first few game....thus, so far, he is not getting better... I will bet the house that if both received 200 carries this year and both caught 25 passes, Jones would have a significantly higher yards per touch. I have no stats to back that up and I don’t care. I would rather have Jones than Pinner. The Lions would rather have Jones than Pinner (They already HAD Pinner and spent a high pick on Jones) and 99.9% (Skewed for JW wanting Pinner) of dynasty fantasy owners would rather have Jones than Pinner. You are a joker...you making a joke out of this topic and out of Pinner...not because Pinner doesn’t show promise, but because you LOVE the guy and will do anything and everything to show your blind ambition. You could be right in the long run...for even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut.Thats all I have to say about that.

 

[jwvdcw]

OK, here's a fresh take. You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust. The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. Come on. Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards? Ridiculous. I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance. No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD. I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers. The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat. Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous. However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better. Time will tell. Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games. Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game. Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

 

[jwvdcw]

Ok.........................I'm going to give you an honest chance here to change my mind. I promise that I will listen to your argument and give it consideration. Give me your best argument. But make it fact based, without personal attacks, without merely talking about physical skills like 40 yard dash time while ignoring immesaruable stuff like reading your blocks and cutting back, and prove to me why KJ is better. I'm listening- I promise you that I will go over your argument point by point and honestly and carefully give you a chance here to change my mind.

I think that you have the burden of proof here. Barring strong evidence to the contrary, the default position is that the higher drafted player chosen by his coaches as the starter is the better player. Until Pinner outperforms KJ I'll stick with that default position.To date, Pinner hasn't outperformed KJ. Based on games where they both got carries, Pinner's YPC and KJ's are virtually identical (3.29 for Pinner, 3.26 for KJ).

I've already given my argument many times. 1.Pinner did indeed outprode KJ in those games.2.In his one start, against the league's #1 defense, Pinner put up 15 fantasy points. KJ put up 5 fantasy points in his best game, which was against the league's #26 ranked rush defense.3.Heres another way to think about it: KJ has put up 8 yards and 0 TDs(0 fantasy points), 56 yards and 0 TDs(5 fantasy points), and 26 yards and 0 TDs(2 fantasy points). I think he also has like 3 fantasy points for receiving, but I'm not positive. Thats a total of 10 fantasy points in 3 starts. Pinner has 15 fantasy points(1 pt more for his 11 yards receiving) in his one start and that was against the #1 ranked defense.Is this absolute proof that Pinner is better? No of course not, its only 4 games. But does it show that Pinner has played better so far? Yes, it does.I believe that if you want to say that the guy with the worse stats is better then you have the burden of proof on who! Sometimes you could point out that your guy has had a tougher opponent- but here its the exact opposite as Pinner played the #1 rush defense. In short, I don't really see how you can make an argument for KJ.

Like you said, and I paraphrase, neither has done anything to write home to mamma about. It doesn't matter, because as soon as KJ is healthy, 'Tose goes to the pine. I'm sure KJ will appreciate 'Tose fetching him some Gatorade from time to time.

I won't argue that the Detroit coaching staff will play KJ over Pinner. They used(wasted?) a high pick on him and want him to play. That doesn't change my opinion that Pinner is better.

I wouldn't want to change your opinion

I have no problem admitting I'm wrong and changing my opinion. If KJ got off to a great start and KJ rode the pine, I would have admitted I was wrong when someone bumped this thread. I can change my opinion.

 

[jwvdcw]

Look guys, lets stop arguing semantics and try to find a concrete statement to stand on. It doesnt matter how you classify Pinner, it matters how well he performs in relation to other backs in the league. Thats his value.So lets play a little devils advocate and suppose Pinner somehow wins the feature job, what is his total upside? Of the following backs, which would you start Pinner ahead of:1 RB 1 LaDainian Tomlinson SD/10 2350 2 RB 2 Priest Holmes KC/5 2300 3 RB 3 Ahman Green GB/9 2174 4 RB 4 Shaun Alexander Sea/4 2085 6 RB 5 Edgerrin James Ind/6 1918 7 RB 6 Chris Brown Ten/9 1841 8 RB 7 Clinton Portis Was/7 1768 10 RB 8 Curtis Martin NYJ/3 1634 11 RB 9 Brian Westbrook Phi/5 1572 12 RB 10 Thomas Jones Chi/5 1513 14 RB 11 Domanick Davis Hou/7 1404 15 RB 12 Tiki Barber NYG/6 1353 17 RB 13 Corey Dillon NE/3 1259 21 RB 14 Fred Taylor Jac/9 1097 22 RB 15 Jamal Lewis Bal/6 1062 23 RB 16 Rudi Johnson Cin/5 1028 24 RB 17 Marshall Faulk StL/8 996 27 RB 18 Deuce McAllister NO/8 906 28 RB 19 Kevan Barlow SF/7 878 30 RB 20 Warrick Dunn Atl/9 828 34 RB 21 Travis Henry Buf/3 759 36 RB 22 Lee Suggs Cle/8 732 37 RB 23 Quentin Griffin Den/10 719 40 RB 24 Duce Staley Pit/7 682 43 RB 25 Stephen Davis Car/3 648 45 RB 26 Michael Pittman TB/8 627 Personally given the choice the only RB i'd bench in favor of Pinner would be Griffin and possibly Barlow. Maybe Pittman, I havent been paying attention to him. That puts Pinner at RB23, at best. Knowing he'll be splitting carries again when KJ gets back knocks him back considerably. Thoughts?

I think the stupid Detroit coaching staff will continue to make this RBBC, so I wouldn't play Pinner over any of those guys if both are healthy.However, next week, KJ might be out. If so, I would play Pinner over 1/2 of those guys. If he can put up 14 FF points against the best rush D, he will put up at least 20 against the Packers imo. He'll be a nice fill in next week, but look to trade while his value is high, as if both are healthy, I don't think either will produce, until the coaching staff comes to their senses and sees that KJ is a bust.

Lets see what you have saidinner is a stud in the makingJones is a bustThe Detroit Lions (3-1) coaches are stupid.

add "I would rather have Pinner than Faulk" to the plethora of brilliant comments this joker has made!Please take your keyboard and throw it in the garbage....

Hurons, all you have done is made personal attacks and gotten stats wrong(ironically in the same post you tell me to 'check the stats' which totally hurts your credibility).Calling me a joker...petty personal attack. I'm not going to respond to that.You then told me that KJ has a higher YPC in the games him a Pinner played in and I should check my stats. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: So are you going to add anything at all to this thread? Please, stop the petty insults and provide me with some good analysis. I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong. Show me why. Prove to me that KJ has played better so far than Pinner.What is so absurd that I would want a guaranteed healthy and starting Pinner(that was the scernario I was given) over a huge injury concern like Faulk? I'd rather take the sure thing. Its not like Faulk has been great this year or anything.

Pinner is god.....check the stats on that...that is about as reliable as comparing the initial 2 games of the season....2 games in which the RB's stats were skewed by a lack of touches. Any astute fantasy owner, or math teacher, would never call either of these two player either a stud, or a bust, based on such a small sample of touches……although you somehow managed to reach that conclusion, based on the small sample of stats, before any seasoned owner has….Pinner is the first to get 20 carries and he lit it up alright.....his YPC was identical to his first few game....thus, so far, he is not getting better... I will bet the house that if both received 200 carries this year and both caught 25 passes, Jones would have a significantly higher yards per touch. I have no stats to back that up and I don’t care. I would rather have Jones than Pinner. The Lions would rather have Jones than Pinner (They already HAD Pinner and spent a high pick on Jones) and 99.9% (Skewed for JW wanting Pinner) of dynasty fantasy owners would rather have Jones than Pinner. You are a joker...you making a joke out of this topic and out of Pinner...not because Pinner doesn’t show promise, but because you LOVE the guy and will do anything and everything to show your blind ambition. You could be right in the long run...for even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut.Thats all I have to say about that.

Thanks for making a somewhat intelligent post instead of just personal attacks and wrong facts. Therefore, I'll give you a good reply:"Pinner is god.....check the stats on that...that is about as reliable as comparing the initial 2 games of the season....2 games in which the RB's stats were skewed by a lack of touches. "I really have no clue what you're trying to say here. Sorry."Any astute fantasy owner, or math teacher, would never call either of these two player either a stud, or a bust, based on such a small sample of touches……although you somehow managed to reach that conclusion, based on the small sample of stats, before any seasoned owner has…."No I didn't. I said before the preseason that Pinner was a stud in the making(meaning he'll one day be a top 15-20 RB...that day will come when he gets a full time role imo). I never based this upon his performance against Atlanta or his few touches in the earlier games."Pinner is the first to get 20 carries and he lit it up alright.....his YPC was identical to his first few game....thus, so far, he is not getting better... "This was also against the #1 rush defense, a point you're once again ignoring. He also had a TD, a point you are also ignoring. And Pinner's YPC, which he matched, was higher than KJs FYI."I will bet the house that if both received 200 carries this year and both caught 25 passes, Jones would have a significantly higher yards per touch. I have no stats to back that up and I don’t care. "Thanks for admitting that you have no stats to back that up. Theres a lot of that going on in this thread. I really have nothing to reply to this. Basically, you are saying "This is what I think. I have no stats to back it up, but I"m going to go on believing it, so don't try to sway me with actual stats." Well, then fine. I guess I can't change your opinion."I would rather have Jones than Pinner. The Lions would rather have Jones than Pinner (They already HAD Pinner and spent a high pick on Jones) and 99.9% (Skewed for JW wanting Pinner) of dynasty fantasy owners would rather have Jones than Pinner. "Fantasy owners only had KJ ranked higher because of the Lions liking him better. The two are not mutually exclusive. If the Lions liked Pinner better(which I'll believe they will start to do as he continues to produce), then FF owners will also like him better."You are a joker...you making a joke out of this topic and out of Pinner...not because Pinner doesn’t show promise, but because you LOVE the guy and will do anything and everything to show your blind ambition. You could be right in the long run...for even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut."What a big man to insult someone over the internet. Jeez, you just couldn't make a good solid post without insults, could you? I only made three major predictions on this board all offseason. They are: Torry Holt is overvalued, T Jones will be a top 10 RB and maybe even top 5, and Pinner will outproduce KJ. Looks like this squirrel is enjoying a nice feast right now.Torry Holt is overvaluedThomas Jones will be a top 10 RB

 

[Evilgrin72]

OK, here's a fresh take. You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust. The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. Come on. Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards? Ridiculous. I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance. No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD. I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers. The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat. Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous. However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better. Time will tell. Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games. Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game. Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

As far as I am concerned, it's a fact that you can't label someone a bust after 31 carries. It's a fact that 68 yards on 23 carries is SUBPAR. 2.97 ypc is below average. That's a fact. Thus, calling someone a stud in the making based on that is a bit premature, IN MY OPINION. That the Lions runnig game has SUCKED this year is a fact, not my opinion. It's a fact that calling Roethlisberger, who has played 3 games, a better QB than Brady, with 2 Super Bowl wins, is ludicrous. That is a fact. That Ben has the potential to be better is my opinion.It's also a fact that making predictions, waiting for something to happen, twisting numbers around in a futile attempt to prove your point, and patting yourself on the back before any of what you said has come to fruition makes you seem less than credible.

 

[jwvdcw]

OK, here's a fresh take.  You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust.  The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on.  Come on.  Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards?  Ridiculous.  I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance.  No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD.  I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers.  The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat.  Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous.  However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better.  Time will tell.  Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games.  Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game.  Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

As far as I am concerned, it's a fact that you can't label someone a bust after 31 carries. It's a fact that 68 yards on 23 carries is SUBPAR. 2.97 ypc is below average. That's a fact. Thus, calling someone a stud in the making based on that is a bit premature, IN MY OPINION. That the Lions runnig game has SUCKED this year is a fact, not my opinion. It's a fact that calling Roethlisberger, who has played 3 games, a better QB than Brady, with 2 Super Bowl wins, is ludicrous. That is a fact. That Ben has the potential to be better is my opinion.It's also a fact that making predictions, waiting for something to happen, twisting numbers around in a futile attempt to prove your point, and patting yourself on the back before any of what you said has come to fruition makes you seem less than credible.

Its a fact that 80 total yards and 1 TD against the #1 ranked rush defense is subpar?You can keep ignoring his receiving yards, touchdown, and opponent all you want...but until you acknowledge that, you're dealing with opinions becuase you're slanting the facts to fit your opinion. Thats like saying, "Culpepper was merely average yesterday, as he only had 30 rushing yards."

 

[jwvdcw]

OK, here's a fresh take.  You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust.  The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on.  Come on.  Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards?  Ridiculous.  I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance.  No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD.  I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers.  The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat.  Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous.  However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better.  Time will tell.  Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games.  Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game.  Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

As far as I am concerned, it's a fact that you can't label someone a bust after 31 carries. It's a fact that 68 yards on 23 carries is SUBPAR. 2.97 ypc is below average. That's a fact. Thus, calling someone a stud in the making based on that is a bit premature, IN MY OPINION. That the Lions runnig game has SUCKED this year is a fact, not my opinion. It's a fact that calling Roethlisberger, who has played 3 games, a better QB than Brady, with 2 Super Bowl wins, is ludicrous. That is a fact. That Ben has the potential to be better is my opinion.It's also a fact that making predictions, waiting for something to happen, twisting numbers around in a futile attempt to prove your point, and patting yourself on the back before any of what you said has come to fruition makes you seem less than credible.

also, me calling him a 'stud in the making' had absolutely nothing to do with this game. I made that statement during the preseason. I think one day he'll be a stud(please don't start the semantical arguement over the definition of 'stud again). If you want me to change my statement just to avoid this arguement I will: I think that when Pinner gets a full time role, he will clearly be worth a 2nd round draft pick.

 

[jwvdcw]

OK, here's a fresh take.  You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust.  The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on.  Come on.  Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards?  Ridiculous.  I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance.  No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD.  I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers.  The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat.  Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous.  However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better.  Time will tell.  Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games.  Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game.  Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

As far as I am concerned, it's a fact that you can't label someone a bust after 31 carries. It's a fact that 68 yards on 23 carries is SUBPAR. 2.97 ypc is below average. That's a fact. Thus, calling someone a stud in the making based on that is a bit premature, IN MY OPINION. That the Lions runnig game has SUCKED this year is a fact, not my opinion. It's a fact that calling Roethlisberger, who has played 3 games, a better QB than Brady, with 2 Super Bowl wins, is ludicrous. That is a fact. That Ben has the potential to be better is my opinion.It's also a fact that making predictions, waiting for something to happen, twisting numbers around in a futile attempt to prove your point, and patting yourself on the back before any of what you said has come to fruition makes you seem less than credible.

I'm 'twisting numbers'!!! Thats insane! This coming from the same guy who totally ignore his touchdown and receiving stats.What numbers have I twisted.Pinner has more rushing TDs, YPC, and rushing yards than KJ. What other rushing stat is there for me to look at? How am I twisting that?

 

[JohnnyU]

OK, here's a fresh take.  You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust.  The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on.  Come on.  Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards?  Ridiculous.  I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance.  No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD.  I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers.  The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat.  Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous.  However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better.  Time will tell.  Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games.  Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game.  Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

As far as I am concerned, it's a fact that you can't label someone a bust after 31 carries. It's a fact that 68 yards on 23 carries is SUBPAR. 2.97 ypc is below average. That's a fact. Thus, calling someone a stud in the making based on that is a bit premature, IN MY OPINION. That the Lions runnig game has SUCKED this year is a fact, not my opinion. It's a fact that calling Roethlisberger, who has played 3 games, a better QB than Brady, with 2 Super Bowl wins, is ludicrous. That is a fact. That Ben has the potential to be better is my opinion.It's also a fact that making predictions, waiting for something to happen, twisting numbers around in a futile attempt to prove your point, and patting yourself on the back before any of what you said has come to fruition makes you seem less than credible.

Its a fact that 80 total yards and 1 TD against the #1 ranked rush defense is subpar?You can keep ignoring his receiving yards, touchdown, and opponent all you want...but until you acknowledge that, you're dealing with opinions becuase you're slanting the facts to fit your opinion. Thats like saying, "Culpepper was merely average yesterday, as he only had 30 rushing yards."

I can't believe your making a big deal out of the ATL game. Hello? It wasn't that great. It was ok, considering ATL is a good rushing defense (so far and that may change). You may have been better served to wait a few games on a wait and see basis, rather than making the type of statements your making based on what we've seen so far. Just my opinion.

 

[Rayderr]

KJ before injury: 31 carries 101 yards = 3.26 ypc

Pinner in the SAME games: 17 carries 56 yards = 3.29 ypc

Unfortunantly strict basic statistics are pretty much useless in the NFL as there are way too many variables.Case in point, yesterday in the Seattle/St. Louis game

Shaun Alexander averaged 6.52 ypc

Mack Strong averaged 6.33 ypc

Does that mean Mack Strong is almost equal to Shaun Alexander?

Let's go to Tampa.

Pittman averaged 3.4 ypc

Michael Clayton averaged 12 ypc

Does that mean they should move Clayton from WR to RB?

Absolutely right Rayderr. I wasn't implying that at all. But again, how do you compare two players without the stats? As much as this thread is being ridiculed due to jwvdcw's enthusiasm for Pinner, at least his arguments thus far has been "stud in the making". I do not share the level of this enthusiasm, but th fact remains that Pinner, whether he is a better athlete/runner or not, has outperformed Kevin Jones during the season. Convince me that this is not true with facts, not opinions.

But as stated statistics do not equal reality because all fo the statistics are flawed because there is no control group. This is why coaches and scouts get the big bucks. They have to look beyond simple stats on a piece of paper. Those people spend 80+ hours a week studying every little minute detail of not only the player in question, but of the other 21 players on the field.

To the best of my knowledge no one here has done that. Let alone done that and be good enough to warrant a job with an NFL team.

So the coaching and scouting staff's opinions matter far more than what anyone could offer up here. So argue yourself into your blue in the face. the simple fact is we have less than 1% of the info of what coaches and scouts have.

If, after Jones is 100%, Pinner is still the starter, then I would concede that Pinner is the better back for that team. (not necessarily overall, because as we've seen countless times, some players flourish in certain systems then fail miserably at others) But until then, I think you have to stick with the experts opinion that Jones is the better back.

 

[JohnnyU]

If, after Jones is 100%, Pinner is still the starter, then I would concede that Pinner is the better back for that team. (not necessarily overall, because as we've seen countless times, some players flourish in certain systems then fail miserably at others) But until then, I think you have to stick with the experts opinion that Jones is the better back.

Sounds reasonable. Who am I to argue with NFL coaches on talent?

 

[Evilgrin72]

I am not ignoring his receiving yards or his touchdown. He had 12 yards receiving. That's really something to honk your horn about ? WOW ! As far as the TD goes, I already explained my take on that. If he had ripped off a 23-yard run, then fine. If he had pounded the ball all the way down the field and was rewarded with a TD, then fine.That drive started at the 2 YARD LINE !!!! And it still took him 3 tries to get the ball into the end zone ! You could have had any RB in the league in there and he would have gotten that TD, that one goes to the defense, not to Pinner. He was lucky there, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean he had a great game. You're using that to lump into his fantasy points scored to show he had a great game. He didn't, he lucked out. A better indicator of future performance is how he ran OVERALL. And yes, no matter how you slice it, a day with 23 carries averaging UNDER 3.0 ypc is subpar. That's a FACT. His whopping twelve receiving yards and his cheapie touchdown do not mean he had a great day. It means he had a pretty lousy day which was rescued for him by the Lions defense.Edited to add : By your rationale, Jerome Bettis days of 3 carries for -1 yard and 2 TDs makes him a STUD because he chalked up 12 fantasy points and not just the beneficiary of the work done by Duce Staley and the passing game to put him in position for those scores.

 

[JohnnyU]

Edited to add : By your rationale, Jerome Bettis days of 3 carries for -1 yard and 2 TDs makes him a STUD because he chalked up 12 fantasy points and not just the beneficiary of the work done by Duce Staley and the passing game to put him in position for those scores.

Actually, it was 3 rushes for 1 yd and 3 TD's, but I see you point.

 

[ILoveMyLions]

Jones outplayed pinner before he hurt his ankle...check the stats and check the tape//

Care to back that up?KJ before injury: 31 carries 101 yards = 3.26 ypc

Pinner in the SAME games: 17 carries 56 yards = 3.29 ypc

Since how they look is an objective objective opinion, let's see some numbers.

I'm not trying to side with jwvdcw here. I just want someone to speak up who can back up KJ without the statement "he looks better" or "Pinner looks slower that molases". If you are an NFL scout or a coach, I may take those statement into consideration.

ILoveMyLions, here you go. Did you not see this?

First of all, some of us work and have lives. I can't check this every 5 mintutes like some of you.And to throw it back in your face JW, through the first two games:

Jones - 93 yards rushing on 27 carries, 47 yards receiving on 2 catches

Pinner - 40 yards on 11 carries, 12 yards on 2 catches

Who was more productive at that point? This was my arguement. Neither was stellar, granted. But you have made Pinner's production out to be awesome while Jones is only in there because he was the first round pick. The after the catch abilty is there for Jones if you saw the game at Chicago, but you probably didn't...

 

[ILoveMyLions]

Why are you so damn high on Pinner? Is this just a little gig your playing to get attention? Pinner is a good backup RB but not starting material.

He's related I think...it has to be...

 

[ILoveMyLions]

OK, here's a fresh take. You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust. The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. Come on. Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards? Ridiculous. I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance. No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD. I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers. The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat. Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous. However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better. Time will tell. Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games. Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game. Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

You don't listen to anyone so why bother debating this any further...

 

[cjack]

OK, here's a fresh take.  You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust.  The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on.  Come on.  Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards?  Ridiculous.  I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance.  No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD.  I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers.  The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat.  Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous.  However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better.  Time will tell.  Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games.  Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game.  Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

As far as I am concerned, it's a fact that you can't label someone a bust after 31 carries. It's a fact that 68 yards on 23 carries is SUBPAR. 2.97 ypc is below average. That's a fact. Thus, calling someone a stud in the making based on that is a bit premature, IN MY OPINION. That the Lions runnig game has SUCKED this year is a fact, not my opinion. It's a fact that calling Roethlisberger, who has played 3 games, a better QB than Brady, with 2 Super Bowl wins, is ludicrous. That is a fact. That Ben has the potential to be better is my opinion.It's also a fact that making predictions, waiting for something to happen, twisting numbers around in a futile attempt to prove your point, and patting yourself on the back before any of what you said has come to fruition makes you seem less than credible.

Its a fact that 80 total yards and 1 TD against the #1 ranked rush defense is subpar?You can keep ignoring his receiving yards, touchdown, and opponent all you want...but until you acknowledge that, you're dealing with opinions becuase you're slanting the facts to fit your opinion. Thats like saying, "Culpepper was merely average yesterday, as he only had 30 rushing yards."

You want to hang your hat on the 'fact' that Pinner did what he did against Atlanta's number 1 ranked rush defense.I don't know that I would put much stock in that this early in the season. So far, they've had the pleasure of facing:San Fran, St. Louis, Carolina and Arizona.I don't know if that's a great test against the rushing D.I hesitated to even post in this thread (unfortunately, I didn't hesitate long enough), but it's still too early to look for people to say they're right or wrong on Pinner or K. Jones. Detroit wasn't able to establish a running game early in the season. I think teams are starting to respect their passing game more, and that may open up the run some, but K. Jones hasn't been around to benefit from that. Maybe K. Jones won't put up superior numbers to Pinner this year, but I wouldn't stake that claim right now.I would love to see K. Jones gets 23 carries in one game to get a read on him. So far, he hasn't carried the ball enough in one game to get a true feel. If you only took Jamal's first 15 carries or so from last night, he didn't look so hot, but when you continue to feed him for 30+ total (or whatever), he gets into a better rhythm.Come back in a few more weeks and check in.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Edited to add : By your rationale, Jerome Bettis days of 3 carries for -1 yard and 2 TDs makes him a STUD because he chalked up 12 fantasy points and not just the beneficiary of the work done by Duce Staley and the passing game to put him in position for those scores.

Actually, it was 3 rushes for 1 yd and 3 TD's, but I see you point.

Better still. 18 fantasy points !! STUD !!!Also, let's stop touting the Falcons as the NFLs #1 rush defense based on the numbers to now. Maybe they haven't played a lot of top-notch running teams yet. Wait until we get past week 4 before coronating them as the league's best run D. It's a misleading stat, but it serves to make jwvdcw's point look SEXIER !

 

[Hurons]

What we know about Pinner based on 79 carries

79 223 31.9 2.8 1 12 77 11.0 6.4

not a big sample, but a decent indicator

What we know about Jones:

31 101 33.7 3.3 0 2 47 15.7 23.5

A significantly smaller sample.

See....based on the stats Jones is better...... there you go...happy now....we showed STATS.....give me a break....wait I'm sorry...Pinner is better because he has 1 TD in his short, but stellar career.

I'll bet my mortgage that after 79 carries, Jones will have a better YPC than 3.3, let alone 2.8

.....Pinner sure showed moves and quickness on those 12 rec he has....

Stats rule all......they prove you ARE right....even if the sample is extremely small..

JW all three of your "predictions" are right. Sorry for doubting you...sorry for "Ignoring" the STATS! All this time I thought you were a joker....I thought you were the Court Jester just trying to make us laugh...

Pinner may turn into something, but to say he is a stud and Kevin jones is a bust based on a small sample is ludicrous.

 

[Evilgrin72]

What we know about Pinner based on 79 carries

79 223 31.9 2.8 1 12 77 11.0 6.4

not a big sample, but a decent indicator

What we know about Jones:

31 101 33.7 3.3 0 2 47 15.7 23.5

A significantly smaller sample.

See....based on the stats Jones is better...... there you go...happy now....we showed STATS.....give me a break....wait I'm sorry...Pinner is better because he has 1 TD in his short, but stellar career.

I'll bet my mortgage that after 79 carries, Jones will have a better YPC than 3.3, let alone 2.8

.....Pinner sure showed moves and quickness on those 12 rec he has....

Stats rule all......they prove you ARE right....even if the sample is extremely small..

JW all three of your "predictions" are right. Sorry for doubting you...sorry for "Ignoring" the STATS! All this time I thought you were a joker....I thought you were the Court Jester just trying to make us laugh...

Pinner may turn into something, but to say he is a stud and Kevin jones is a bust based on a small sample is ludicrous.

Yeah, but Pinner got that touchdown. He pounded the ball all the way down the field from the Atlanta 2 into the endzone. Just look at his numbers from that drive alone :Carries : 3

Yards : 2

TDs : 1

YPC : 0.67

You're trying to tell me that bust Kevin Jones would have been able to punch it in like that ???? FOOLS !!!

 

[JohnnyU]

What we know about Pinner based on 79 carries

79 223 31.9 2.8 1 12 77 11.0 6.4

not a big sample, but a decent indicator

What we know about Jones:

31 101 33.7 3.3 0 2 47 15.7 23.5

A significantly smaller sample.

See....based on the stats Jones is better...... there you go...happy now....we showed STATS.....give me a break....wait I'm sorry...Pinner is better because he has 1 TD in his short, but stellar career.

I'll bet my mortgage that after 79 carries, Jones will have a better YPC than 3.3, let alone 2.8

.....Pinner sure showed moves and quickness on those 12 rec he has....

Stats rule all......they prove you ARE right....even if the sample is extremely small..

JW all three of your "predictions" are right. Sorry for doubting you...sorry for "Ignoring" the STATS! All this time I thought you were a joker....I thought you were the Court Jester just trying to make us laugh...

Pinner may turn into something, but to say he is a stud and Kevin jones is a bust based on a small sample is ludicrous.

Yeah, but Pinner got that touchdown. He pounded the ball all the way down the field from the Atlanta 2 into the endzone. Just look at his numbers from that drive alone :Carries : 3

Yards : 2

TDs : 1

YPC : 0.67

You're trying to tell me that bust Kevin Jones would have been able to punch it in like that ???? FOOLS !!!

Kevin Jones has 1 TD called back due to penalty

 

[Evilgrin72]

What we know about Pinner based on 79 carries

79 223 31.9 2.8 1  12 77 11.0 6.4

not a big sample, but a decent indicator

What we know about Jones:

31 101 33.7 3.3 0  2 47 15.7 23.5

A significantly smaller sample.

See....based on the stats Jones is better...... there you go...happy now....we showed STATS.....give me a break....wait I'm sorry...Pinner is better because he has 1 TD in his short, but stellar career.

I'll bet my mortgage that after 79 carries, Jones will have a better YPC than 3.3, let alone 2.8

.....Pinner sure showed moves and quickness on those 12 rec he has....

Stats rule all......they prove you ARE right....even if the sample is extremely small..

JW  all three of your "predictions" are right. Sorry for doubting you...sorry for "Ignoring" the STATS! All this time I thought you were a joker....I thought you were the Court Jester just trying to make us laugh...

Pinner may turn into something, but to say he is a stud and Kevin jones is a bust based on a small sample is ludicrous.

Yeah, but Pinner got that touchdown. He pounded the ball all the way down the field from the Atlanta 2 into the endzone. Just look at his numbers from that drive alone :Carries : 3

Yards : 2

TDs : 1

YPC : 0.67

You're trying to tell me that bust Kevin Jones would have been able to punch it in like that ???? FOOLS !!!

Kevin Jones has 1 TD called back due to penalty

See, there you have it. A true STUD doesn't get TDs called back due to penalties. The lineman know better than to hold when a guy like Pinner is in the game. You don't need to hold when you have a tailback capable of tearing off repeated runs of 2 and 3 yards.

 

[jwvdcw]

OK, here's a fresh take.  You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust.  The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on.  Come on.  Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards?  Ridiculous.  I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance.  No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD.  I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers.  The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat.  Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous.  However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better.  Time will tell.  Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games.  Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game.  Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

As far as I am concerned, it's a fact that you can't label someone a bust after 31 carries. It's a fact that 68 yards on 23 carries is SUBPAR. 2.97 ypc is below average. That's a fact. Thus, calling someone a stud in the making based on that is a bit premature, IN MY OPINION. That the Lions runnig game has SUCKED this year is a fact, not my opinion. It's a fact that calling Roethlisberger, who has played 3 games, a better QB than Brady, with 2 Super Bowl wins, is ludicrous. That is a fact. That Ben has the potential to be better is my opinion.It's also a fact that making predictions, waiting for something to happen, twisting numbers around in a futile attempt to prove your point, and patting yourself on the back before any of what you said has come to fruition makes you seem less than credible.

Its a fact that 80 total yards and 1 TD against the #1 ranked rush defense is subpar?You can keep ignoring his receiving yards, touchdown, and opponent all you want...but until you acknowledge that, you're dealing with opinions becuase you're slanting the facts to fit your opinion. Thats like saying, "Culpepper was merely average yesterday, as he only had 30 rushing yards."

I can't believe your making a big deal out of the ATL game. Hello? It wasn't that great. It was ok, considering ATL is a good rushing defense (so far and that may change). You may have been better served to wait a few games on a wait and see basis, rather than making the type of statements your making based on what we've seen so far. Just my opinion.

I'm not making a 'big deal' out of the game...I"m simply saying that you all are way off base in calling it a subpar performance. It was a very good performance. Was it great? No. Does it prove hes better than KJ? No. But it was a very good performance considering the defense he was up against. I can't see how you all can possibly call it subpar or poor.

 

[jwvdcw]

KJ before injury: 31 carries 101 yards = 3.26 ypc

Pinner in the SAME games: 17 carries 56 yards = 3.29 ypc

Unfortunantly strict basic statistics are pretty much useless in the NFL as there are way too many variables.Case in point, yesterday in the Seattle/St. Louis game

Shaun Alexander averaged 6.52 ypc

Mack Strong averaged 6.33 ypc

Does that mean Mack Strong is almost equal to Shaun Alexander?

Let's go to Tampa.

Pittman averaged 3.4 ypc

Michael Clayton averaged 12 ypc

Does that mean they should move Clayton from WR to RB?

Absolutely right Rayderr. I wasn't implying that at all. But again, how do you compare two players without the stats? As much as this thread is being ridiculed due to jwvdcw's enthusiasm for Pinner, at least his arguments thus far has been "stud in the making". I do not share the level of this enthusiasm, but th fact remains that Pinner, whether he is a better athlete/runner or not, has outperformed Kevin Jones during the season. Convince me that this is not true with facts, not opinions.

But as stated statistics do not equal reality because all fo the statistics are flawed because there is no control group. This is why coaches and scouts get the big bucks. They have to look beyond simple stats on a piece of paper. Those people spend 80+ hours a week studying every little minute detail of not only the player in question, but of the other 21 players on the field.

To the best of my knowledge no one here has done that. Let alone done that and be good enough to warrant a job with an NFL team.

So the coaching and scouting staff's opinions matter far more than what anyone could offer up here. So argue yourself into your blue in the face. the simple fact is we have less than 1% of the info of what coaches and scouts have.

If, after Jones is 100%, Pinner is still the starter, then I would concede that Pinner is the better back for that team. (not necessarily overall, because as we've seen countless times, some players flourish in certain systems then fail miserably at others) But until then, I think you have to stick with the experts opinion that Jones is the better back.

To say that we should just blindly follow what the coaches think is foolish imo. They spend a high draft pick on KJ so they're gonna use him, similar to how the Ravens are forcing Boeller into the starting job. I guess by your same logic, Kyle Boeller is a better QB than any of the FAs that were available(Warner, Collins, Garcia, Brunell) because the Ravens coaching staff chose to stick with him instead of pursuing one of them? Or I guess Carson Palmer is better(right now) than Kitna according to that logic? NFL coaches are stubborn sometimes- they force their high draft picks into action a lot. I don't think this is a true indictation of what they're doing.

But even if the Lion's staff does see a lot more in KJ, that still wouldn't disprove me.....because my whole point all along was that while KJ has more speed and strength, Pinner does stuff that can't be seen at first(little things like follow his blocks well and wait for the play to develop and run hard inside) that isn't seen right away, but lets him end up with solid stats because all of those little things equal results on the field.

I wouldn't be surprised if KJ got the starting job back either. But as Pinner continues to outproduce him, we may be in for a change.

 

[jwvdcw]

I am not ignoring his receiving yards or his touchdown. He had 12 yards receiving. That's really something to honk your horn about ? WOW ! As far as the TD goes, I already explained my take on that. If he had ripped off a 23-yard run, then fine. If he had pounded the ball all the way down the field and was rewarded with a TD, then fine.That drive started at the 2 YARD LINE !!!! And it still took him 3 tries to get the ball into the end zone ! You could have had any RB in the league in there and he would have gotten that TD, that one goes to the defense, not to Pinner. He was lucky there, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean he had a great game. You're using that to lump into his fantasy points scored to show he had a great game. He didn't, he lucked out. A better indicator of future performance is how he ran OVERALL. And yes, no matter how you slice it, a day with 23 carries averaging UNDER 3.0 ypc is subpar. That's a FACT. His whopping twelve receiving yards and his cheapie touchdown do not mean he had a great day. It means he had a pretty lousy day which was rescued for him by the Lions defense.Edited to add : By your rationale, Jerome Bettis days of 3 carries for -1 yard and 2 TDs makes him a STUD because he chalked up 12 fantasy points and not just the beneficiary of the work done by Duce Staley and the passing game to put him in position for those scores.

Pinner is the tough inside runner. KJ often runs outside, which can result in big plays but is not good for short yardage. Do you really want to argue over who the better short yardage runner is???? Then how can you discount Pinner's short yardage TD when that is his very strength??!!!!And even if we do discount it(which is silly imo), then he still put up more rushing yards against the #1 defense than KJ has ever put up in one game. Add in the rec yards and the TD, and you have a good performance.And no, I don't think any back would get that TD. I think that there are some good overall RBs that are not good short yardage RBs. Moreover, some teams wouldn't trust their RB to rely solely upon him in short yardage.

 

[Evilgrin72]

I'm not making a 'big deal' out of the game...I"m simply saying that you all are way off base in calling it a subpar performance. It was a very good performance. Was it great? No. Does it prove hes better than KJ? No. But it was a very good performance considering the defense he was up against. I can't see how you all can possibly call it subpar or poor.

Fair enough. I have to consider 68 yards as a relatively poor performance. I'm not saying the guy stinks, but I certainly wouldn't call him a stud, I certainly wouldn't call Jones a bust, and I certainly wouldn't say it proves Pinner is better. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.... but that's what the forums are for !

 

[jwvdcw]

Jones outplayed pinner before he hurt his ankle...check the stats and check the tape//

Care to back that up?KJ before injury: 31 carries 101 yards = 3.26 ypc

Pinner in the SAME games: 17 carries 56 yards = 3.29 ypc

Since how they look is an objective objective opinion, let's see some numbers.

I'm not trying to side with jwvdcw here. I just want someone to speak up who can back up KJ without the statement "he looks better" or "Pinner looks slower that molases". If you are an NFL scout or a coach, I may take those statement into consideration.

ILoveMyLions, here you go. Did you not see this?

First of all, some of us work and have lives. I can't check this every 5 mintutes like some of you.And to throw it back in your face JW, through the first two games:

Jones - 93 yards rushing on 27 carries, 47 yards receiving on 2 catches

Pinner - 40 yards on 11 carries, 12 yards on 2 catches

Who was more productive at that point? This was my arguement. Neither was stellar, granted. But you have made Pinner's production out to be awesome while Jones is only in there because he was the first round pick. The after the catch abilty is there for Jones if you saw the game at Chicago, but you probably didn't...

Thats fine if you can't check 'every 5 minutes like me.' I have no problem with that. But don't argue adamently for one side if you don't have the facts or havn't at least read my previous posts. I understand you have work, but its kind of frusterating for me to have to repeat myself. Sorry if I came across rude. I didn't mean to be like that- we're just having a good debate, nothing personal.

 

[JohnnyU]

I wouldn't be surprised if KJ got the starting job back either. But as Pinner continues to outproduce him, we may be in for a change.

It's funny how you word things. You make it sound like there could be a change based up on Pinner's performance compared to KJ's, when in reality, there about the same. Too damn funny

 

[jwvdcw]

OK, here's a fresh take.  You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust.  The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on.  Come on.  Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards?  Ridiculous.  I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance.  No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD.  I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers.  The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat.  Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous.  However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better.  Time will tell.  Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games.  Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game.  Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

You don't listen to anyone so why bother debating this any further...

I think I've clearly been trying to give everyone a chance to change my mind. Read through the thread! I'm seriously trying to have my mind changed, but nobody can do it so far.

 

[jwvdcw]

OK, here's a fresh take.  You want facts, here are some facts.1) It is WAY too early to call Kevin Jones a bust.  The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on.  Come on.  Let him heal and we'll all see what's up.2) Artose Pinner is a stud in the making based on 23 carries for 68 yards?  Ridiculous.  I don't give a rat's rump about his 1-yard TD - that's happenstance.  No matter which RB is in a game, Harrington can hit Roy Williams for 50 yards to the opposing 1-yard line and whoever they put in is going to get that TD.  I don't see anything to suggest that Pinner is going to be a stud - 3 ypc doesn't impress me.3) It looks to me, a neutral observer, like whoever you stick in behind Detroit's O-line is going to put up crap numbers.  The Lions can't run the football, and if there are no holes, you can put anyone back there and they won't do squat.  Both Pinner and Jones suck, have sucked, and will suck behind that unit.4) I'm not sure who said Roethlisberger is a better real-life QB than Tom Brady, but that is ludicrous.  However, he has the POTENTIAL to be even better.  Time will tell.  Unlike some here, I am not ready to label a player after 3 games.  Let's all take a step back here.5) Finally, stop trying to jock your predictions based on the events of one friggin' game.  Wait until the end of the season and then see if Pinner has outproduced Jones, if Holt was overvalued (this I agree with you on,) and if T. Jones finishes as a top-10 back.

1.That is an opinion. You have an opinion about how long it takes to call someone a bust. That is an opinion...although I agree with it.2.That is also an opinion(or rather, a disagreement with my opinion). 80 total yards against the #1 rush defense is not bad. Please explain to me how that is so terrible!3. That is also an opinion. And I disagree. I think that if the Lions RB can put up 15 fantasy points against the #1 rush defense, then they should be able to put up more against a worse defense. And btw, 15 FF points per week is solid #2 RB material.4. Once again, it is your OPINION that is ludicrous. I agree with your OPINION.5.Its more fun to do it this way. I stick my neck out there, and sometimes I get a lot of flack for it. I also brag when I'm right even if its early. I make for interesting discussion and fun. Why should I have to stop doing this? If you really don't like it(which I can easily see why some wouldn't) then simply avoid the thread.You said, "You want facts, here are some facts." Well let me pick every fact out of your post:The guy has 31 NFL carries to go on. 23 carries for 68 yardsTime will tellThats hardly a bunch of facts.

As far as I am concerned, it's a fact that you can't label someone a bust after 31 carries. It's a fact that 68 yards on 23 carries is SUBPAR. 2.97 ypc is below average. That's a fact. Thus, calling someone a stud in the making based on that is a bit premature, IN MY OPINION. That the Lions runnig game has SUCKED this year is a fact, not my opinion. It's a fact that calling Roethlisberger, who has played 3 games, a better QB than Brady, with 2 Super Bowl wins, is ludicrous. That is a fact. That Ben has the potential to be better is my opinion.It's also a fact that making predictions, waiting for something to happen, twisting numbers around in a futile attempt to prove your point, and patting yourself on the back before any of what you said has come to fruition makes you seem less than credible.

Its a fact that 80 total yards and 1 TD against the #1 ranked rush defense is subpar?You can keep ignoring his receiving yards, touchdown, and opponent all you want...but until you acknowledge that, you're dealing with opinions becuase you're slanting the facts to fit your opinion. Thats like saying, "Culpepper was merely average yesterday, as he only had 30 rushing yards."

You want to hang your hat on the 'fact' that Pinner did what he did against Atlanta's number 1 ranked rush defense.I don't know that I would put much stock in that this early in the season. So far, they've had the pleasure of facing:San Fran, St. Louis, Carolina and Arizona.I don't know if that's a great test against the rushing D.I hesitated to even post in this thread (unfortunately, I didn't hesitate long enough), but it's still too early to look for people to say they're right or wrong on Pinner or K. Jones. Detroit wasn't able to establish a running game early in the season. I think teams are starting to respect their passing game more, and that may open up the run some, but K. Jones hasn't been around to benefit from that. Maybe K. Jones won't put up superior numbers to Pinner this year, but I wouldn't stake that claim right now.I would love to see K. Jones gets 23 carries in one game to get a read on him. So far, he hasn't carried the ball enough in one game to get a true feel. If you only took Jamal's first 15 carries or so from last night, he didn't look so hot, but when you continue to feed him for 30+ total (or whatever), he gets into a better rhythm.Come back in a few more weeks and check in.

SF: But wasn't Barlow supposed to be a stud? ST L: The Faulk/Jakcson combo still is a force imo. No easy game here.Car: good o line. Davis was out(I think), but Foster isn't bad at all.Ariz: Nothing great(I won't try to make it out to be), but E Smith has been playing decently, especially considering that they're usually behind and abandoning the run.

 

[jwvdcw]

What we know about Pinner based on 79 carries

79 223 31.9 2.8 1 12 77 11.0 6.4

not a big sample, but a decent indicator

What we know about Jones:

31 101 33.7 3.3 0 2 47 15.7 23.5

A significantly smaller sample.

See....based on the stats Jones is better...... there you go...happy now....we showed STATS.....give me a break....wait I'm sorry...Pinner is better because he has 1 TD in his short, but stellar career.

I'll bet my mortgage that after 79 carries, Jones will have a better YPC than 3.3, let alone 2.8

.....Pinner sure showed moves and quickness on those 12 rec he has....

Stats rule all......they prove you ARE right....even if the sample is extremely small..

JW all three of your "predictions" are right. Sorry for doubting you...sorry for "Ignoring" the STATS! All this time I thought you were a joker....I thought you were the Court Jester just trying to make us laugh...

Pinner may turn into something, but to say he is a stud and Kevin jones is a bust based on a small sample is ludicrous.

Yeah, but Pinner got that touchdown. He pounded the ball all the way down the field from the Atlanta 2 into the endzone. Just look at his numbers from that drive alone :Carries : 3

Yards : 2

TDs : 1

YPC : 0.67

You're trying to tell me that bust Kevin Jones would have been able to punch it in like that ???? FOOLS !!!

I think its no secret that KJ's biggest weakness is short yardage situations. He often bounces runs to the outside, which results in loss of yards.

 

[jwvdcw]

What we know about Pinner based on 79 carries

79 223 31.9 2.8 1   12 77 11.0 6.4

not a big sample, but a decent indicator

What we know about Jones:

31 101 33.7 3.3 0   2 47 15.7 23.5

A significantly smaller sample.

See....based on the stats Jones is better...... there you go...happy now....we showed STATS.....give me a break....wait I'm sorry...Pinner is better because he has 1 TD in his short, but stellar career.

I'll bet my mortgage that after 79 carries, Jones will have a better YPC than 3.3, let alone 2.8

.....Pinner sure showed moves and quickness on those 12 rec he has....

Stats rule all......they prove you ARE right....even if the sample is extremely small..

JW  all three of your "predictions" are right. Sorry for doubting you...sorry for "Ignoring" the STATS! All this time I thought you were a joker....I thought you were the Court Jester just trying to make us laugh...

Pinner may turn into something, but to say he is a stud and Kevin jones is a bust based on a small sample is ludicrous.

Yeah, but Pinner got that touchdown. He pounded the ball all the way down the field from the Atlanta 2 into the endzone. Just look at his numbers from that drive alone :Carries : 3

Yards : 2

TDs : 1

YPC : 0.67

You're trying to tell me that bust Kevin Jones would have been able to punch it in like that ???? FOOLS !!!

Kevin Jones has 1 TD called back due to penalty

See, there you have it. A true STUD doesn't get TDs called back due to penalties. The lineman know better than to hold when a guy like Pinner is in the game. You don't need to hold when you have a tailback capable of tearing off repeated runs of 2 and 3 yards.

Come on...if his lineman holded to open a hole that sprung him, then that wouldn't have been a TD without the holding. You can't count that! Lets get real.

 

[jwvdcw]

I'm not making a 'big deal' out of the game...I"m simply saying that you all are way off base in calling it a subpar performance. It was a very good performance. Was it great? No. Does it prove hes better than KJ? No. But it was a very good performance considering the defense he was up against. I can't see how you all can possibly call it subpar or poor.

Fair enough. I have to consider 68 yards as a relatively poor performance. I'm not saying the guy stinks, but I certainly wouldn't call him a stud, I certainly wouldn't call Jones a bust, and I certainly wouldn't say it proves Pinner is better. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.... but that's what the forums are for !

I agree with you.

 

[jwvdcw]

I wouldn't be surprised if KJ got the starting job back either. But as Pinner continues to outproduce him, we may be in for a change.

It's funny how you word things. You make it sound like there could be a change based up on Pinner's performance compared to KJ's, when in reality, there about the same. Too damn funny

Its a small sample, but not all that close imo. Pinner put up more fantasy points in one start against the top ranked defense than KJ has put up COMBINED in all of his games. Thats close?

 

[JohnnyU]

Looks like jwvdcw needs his daily Pinner fix.

 

[jwvdcw]

Looks like jwvdcw needs his daily Pinner fix.

Just wanted to reply to the posts I hadn't seen yet. I guess we'll have to wait until after next Sunday(when Pinner goes off) to bring this up again.

 

[JohnnyU]

Looks like jwvdcw needs his daily Pinner fix. 

Just wanted to reply to the posts I hadn't seen yet. I guess we'll have to wait until after next Sunday(when Pinner goes off) to bring this up again.

Against that defense if he doesn't go off, maybe they should try Avon Cobourne again Just kidding about Cobourne (is he still on the team? maybe practice squad?). I meant to say Bryson, lol