Grahamburn
Footballguy
I agree with the Ravens. I agree with Lamar. If I'm the Ravens I'm franchising him and/or trading him. If I'm Lamar I'm asking for the Watson deal or really close to it and I'm not playing on a tag. Both sides can be right.
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QB Lamar Jackson, BAL (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter massraider
- Start date
I agree with the Ravens. I agree with Lamar. If I'm the Ravens I'm franchising him and/or trading him. If I'm Lamar I'm asking for the Watson deal or really close to it and I'm not playing on a tag. Both sides can be right.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Adam Thompson
@BookiesAdam
Lamar Jackson 2023 Team Odds, via
@bookies
Atlanta Falcons +300
Carolina Panthers +450
Las Vegas Raiders +500
Baltimore Ravens +550
New York Jets +750
Chicago Bears +750
Miami Dolphins +1200
The Field +650
Grahamburn
Footballguy
I think you have to factor in the ability to pay him the contract he wants. I know the Bucs can't. Don't think the Giants or Niners can either.
If I'm the Lions I'm really happy where my franchise is at the moment, and don't want to touch a player like this.
Redskins feel like a perfect fit. So does a team like Atlanta.
LawFitz
Footballguy
I listed those teams more as an illustration of how the Ravens would be foolish to use the non-exclusive tag, as they could easily end up with nothing more than a late 1st rounder this year and if LJax and his new team perform, just one more late 1st in 2024. Seems like they could do a lot better than that if they shop him around for actual trades.
Tau837
Footballguy
Reasons I don't think the Ravens should give Jackson a $50M+ APY contract that is fully or mostly guaranteed:
- While he is one of the best QBs in the league, he is not one of the best passing QBs in the league. Much of his value is tied to him being the best running QB in the NFL. It is reasonable to believe his running effectiveness will decline more rapidly than his passing effectiveness, and that could definitely happen during the span of his next contract.
- His MVP season was remarkable, but that was in 2019. In 3 seasons since then, he has not played as well. If his expected level of play is his 2019 level of play, then he deserves a top of market contract. If his expected level of play is more like his aggregate play in 2020-2022, he doesn't.
- He has been injured in each of the past two seasons, which raises a concern about future durability/availability, especially given that he runs a lot, which can expose him to more/different kinds of hits than most QBs.
- Personally, I think Cleveland made a mistake with Watson's contract, and I don't think a well run franchise like Baltimore should make a similar mistake.
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Reason #4 is the biggest one I think. The last 20 years of Browns teams vs Ravens teams isn't because of luck. The Ravens don't seem like they are going to do something just because another team did, especially when that team was the Browns.
I'd be shocked if the Panthers made a move like that, not with a new HC, and cap issues.
Falcons and Raiders both make a ton of sense, though I'm not sure I'd wanna give up much more than just their top-8 picks. Really like Atlanta, as they have the 2nd most cap space in the NFL, and that division is super winnable with Brady gone. Hell, the Falcons likely would have won the division last year, with even mediocre QB play, that running game was humming.
Bears would just be throwing money away. No way they'd trade for Lamar. More likely to go QB at #1, and even more likely to do nothing.
-OZ-
Footballguy
I might be delusional but I’d bet against the Panthers here. Reich as OC is enough reason for me to go after a QB like Carr, Jimmy, etc or take my chances in the draft.
Lamar fits the falcons offense very well imo.
So you're sticking with what you said, that the new standard is anything other than a championship meaning you are a failure and it is all on you regardless of what you are surrounded by? Seriously? No one has even alluded to that, you can't be serious.
massraider
Footballguy
I have no idea or reason to believe the Panthers are in play for him, but:
I was listening to the Athletic football podcast, and they had the Panthers guy on. The new owner, Tepper, basically has told the front office/coaches he wants to win, and isn't afraid of bold moves. He threw some money around for the all-star coaching staff, and if you were looking for an owner to fully guarantee a deal, it might be the new owner who has Eff you money, and isn't scared of Jones and Kraft.
And thinking more about it, if I was Frank Reich, I am not sure a good-enough QB would be on my wish list,
Dude basically got fired because the Colts kept going with band-aid QBs. One of them was his guy, I know, but nonetheless.
-OZ-
Footballguy
I hear that, but Lamar just doesn’t seem to play Reich’s style. But then, he never had a LamarI have no idea or reason to believe the Panthers are in play for him, but:
I was listening to the Athletic football podcast, and they had the Panthers guy on. The new owner, Tepper, basically has told the front office/coaches he wants to win, and isn't afraid of bold moves. He threw some money around for the all-star coaching staff, and if you were looking for an owner to fully guarantee a deal, it might be the new owner who has Eff you money, and isn't scared of Jones and Kraft.
And thinking more about it, if I was Frank Reich, I am not sure a good-enough QB would be on my wish list,
Dude basically got fired because the Colts kept going with band-aid QBs. One of them was his guy, I know, but nonetheless.
I agree that Reich likely doesn't want a "good enough" QB, I just think Carolina is a lot more likely to turn to the draft, than a trade or a FA. I'm not really buying them for Carr either.I have no idea or reason to believe the Panthers are in play for him, but:
I was listening to the Athletic football podcast, and they had the Panthers guy on. The new owner, Tepper, basically has told the front office/coaches he wants to win, and isn't afraid of bold moves. He threw some money around for the all-star coaching staff, and if you were looking for an owner to fully guarantee a deal, it might be the new owner who has Eff you money, and isn't scared of Jones and Kraft.
And thinking more about it, if I was Frank Reich, I am not sure a good-enough QB would be on my wish list,
Dude basically got fired because the Colts kept going with band-aid QBs. One of them was his guy, I know, but nonetheless.
I think both are valid.
Watching those playoff games, Lamar's limitations become evident. When a good team decides to remove him from the game, they can.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Ravens Rank Last in Strength Coaching, Average Overall in NFLPA Survey
a grade of F- is alarming for the team's strength coaches,...
--------------
@Kwen_C
Baltimore having terrible strength and conditioning coaches def explains why they have had so many players get injured
Carl Davis Jr.@Trenchwork94
I was def a victim of the strength coaches. Two Labrums and multiple pec strains twitter.com/CordellWoodlan…
-----------------------------------------
LINK to screenshot of more tweets
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massraider
Footballguy
Seems like only yesterday the Ravens were letting it known they thought Lamar should be playing through his injury, and people were quite comfortable letting the accusation of faking an injury hang out there.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Jamison Hensley
@jamisonhensley
Calais Campbell: Lamar Jackson wants to get a deal done with the Ravens.
The deadline for the franchise tag is Tuesday.
Full story here: >>> LINK
------------------------------
... Baltimore would have to place the franchise tag on Jackson by Tuesday at 4 p.m. ET to keep him from becoming an unrestricted free agent...
@jamisonhensley
Calais Campbell: Lamar Jackson wants to get a deal done with the Ravens.
The deadline for the franchise tag is Tuesday.
Full story here: >>> LINK
------------------------------
... Baltimore would have to place the franchise tag on Jackson by Tuesday at 4 p.m. ET to keep him from becoming an unrestricted free agent...
TartanLion
Footballguy
Going back to Lamar’s playoff record..
You can never look at these kind of records and make a sweeping statement without going into all the details of each game and situation. Lions fans that hated Stafford used to beat him with a stick of never won a playoff game, not good enough to win a playoff game…
Young Stafford surrounded by mostly **** and Calvin on road to Brees Saints
Stafford on road to Cowboys, very close game with questionable referee decisions
Stafford on road to Seahawks with a finger injury and a team that had lost steam in last few weeks of season.
YET, taken in isolation people would have you believe that he wasn’t as good a QB as Brock Osweiler who won a playoff game for the Texans at home to a Carr-less Raiders.
Then he moves to the Rams and, you know, wins a few playoff games in a row
Playoff records are about the QB but about so much more than just the QB
You can never look at these kind of records and make a sweeping statement without going into all the details of each game and situation. Lions fans that hated Stafford used to beat him with a stick of never won a playoff game, not good enough to win a playoff game…
Young Stafford surrounded by mostly **** and Calvin on road to Brees Saints
Stafford on road to Cowboys, very close game with questionable referee decisions
Stafford on road to Seahawks with a finger injury and a team that had lost steam in last few weeks of season.
YET, taken in isolation people would have you believe that he wasn’t as good a QB as Brock Osweiler who won a playoff game for the Texans at home to a Carr-less Raiders.
Then he moves to the Rams and, you know, wins a few playoff games in a row
Playoff records are about the QB but about so much more than just the QB
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osubuckeyeman
Footballguy
My question is will there be bad blood remaining after a deal is done? Will the Ravens or Lamar feel differently about one another? I think they will tag him with the exclusive tag which buys them time but I can not see this relationship getting better even after a deal is done. I think the Ravens need to seriously consider other options that are available right now before they are not available. When the first QB domino falls the others should also start falling quickly. Or the Ravens need to just get the deal done and bury their feelings. Just get it done or move on. The question for me at this point is which is better? I have been in the Lamar camp but as this continues maybe it is better that there is a split. A lot of times "Divorce" is the correct option. The trade compensation will not be any higher than right now. Once the QB free agents start signing the trade compensation changes. NOW is the time to make a move if you are going to.
"Wins are not a QB stat."
massraider
Footballguy
In his first six NFL seasons, Taysom Hill has made $32.77 million.
In his first five NFL seasons, Lamar Jackson has made $32.77 million
In his first five NFL seasons, Lamar Jackson has made $32.77 million
Boston
Footballguy
Obviously...Hill can play two positions.
Hu-Tang Clan
Footballguy
Three positions actually.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Yeah. Feels like their Defense gets decimated yearly. The RB also seems more inured than usual.
The fact that strength and conditioning coaches, and the connection to a concern about injury - is relevant to your QB... pretty much lays out the concern perfectly. No other DE/DT's critique in this area will ever be associated with the team's QB.
The guy simply is a freak athlete playing QB. When the freak becomes less freakish (inevitable by age or injury)... he becomes a liability.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
While this is true, there is a big difference between the Lions and Ravens franchises.
Let's ignore record and focus on just his play: do you think Lamar has performed well in the playoffs so far?
This is the right play
metoo
Footballguy
I read most of these comments and I think Baltimore has lost its way. I look at the issues with their S&C and it's an issue. You have a wr calling out the coaching staff, The QB not getting paid. This looks like a bad season.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Used to ASSUME the same thing a long time ago with a big athletic scrambling QB who was a threat with his gun and wheels. He was terrifying but very early in his career he blew out his knees so I figured he would begin a downward spiral since he wouldn't be the terrifying duel threat that he was his first two years in the league.
Wrong.
People don't realize that an uber athletic QB who gets injured isn't automatically cooked. There is a long history and history that teaches us not to ASSUME anything when it comes to players.
---------------------------
John Elway Played Entire Career Without ACL With Griffin's knee injury dominating headlines, we take a look back at Shanahan's past with John Elway's injuries.
...Today, surgical procedures often can repair torn ligaments. But when John hurt his knee [in high school], there was little doctors could do. In 1978, a torn ACL was a career-ending injury for most athletes. But John wasn't like most athletes.
...In 1985, Elway had microscopic surgery on his knee. The part that stands out here?
Picture
John Elway — Denver Broncos Super-Bowl Winning Quarterback & General Manager - Knee Replacement
...Something you might not know: Elway had to have a knee replacement in 2007, after playing his entire career with almost no ACL left in his knee. Even though the original knee was in bad shape, he never had ACL reconstruction surgery, opting instead to continue playing through pain and discomfort.
Although Elway is sometimes cited as an example of what an athlete can do with no ACL, that was a different era-- it wasn't a good idea at the time, and it's something we don't recommend anyone doing in this day and age...
-----------------------------------
I remember I ASSUMED when I heard Elway blew out his knee that he'd never be the same, he wasn't the same duel threat but he still was able to hobble out a few calculated scrambles and adjusted his overall game having his best seasons completely without his ACL.
I don't assume Lamar Jackson is a liability because he is 'less freaky' of an athlete. Nah, not at all.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
My friend, Bob Sacamano, he said John Elway heard a clicking in his knee 45 years ago and was fine so Lamar Jackson should be too.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Good post and I would like to add...when the Ravens put the full on franchise tag where he can't go anywhere, Jackson has months and months to sign that franchise tag
I want to stress this...Lamar Jackson IS NOT holding out when he takes the entire summer off with a new OC coming in the door and waits until 3 days prior to kickoff Week 1
That is completely acceptable and you need to swallow it when you feel righteous the Ravens are doing right by forcing Jackson to reject their below market offers.
I think Jackson is mostly done with the Ravens unless they back the truck up and even then the two sides might need some counseling in order to move forward.
Arizona talked a big game and it boiled down to some VCR Tape watching by Murray or they wouldn't sign off.
Of course Murray told them he would watch film, doesn't seem like he did this season
massraider
Footballguy
Choosing the non-exclusive tag is an interesting play if everyone is correct that he won't get a fully guaranteed deal. Then the Ravens can let him see what is out there, and when he finds out no one will do that, he can sign a reasonable deal with BAL.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Correct
-Or he could choose to take the Jets $300M fully guaranteed deal in exchange for 2 future 1st rd picks, Jets won't hesitate to ship them
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
From CBS...
The Ravens aren't going to doubt what Jackson brings to the organization, as they are 45-16 in his 61 starts since Jackson entered the league in 2018. They average 28.0 points per game when Jackson is on the field compared to 20.0 when Jackson misses games. Jackson is one of six players in NFL history to reach 100-plus passing touchdowns and 4,000-plus rushing yards in a career, and the fastest to reach the mark by 31 games. The Ravens are averaging 184.8 rushing yards per game with Jackson as a starter in his career -- the most by any starting quarterback since the 1970 merger.
The Ravens aren't going to doubt what Jackson brings to the organization, as they are 45-16 in his 61 starts since Jackson entered the league in 2018. They average 28.0 points per game when Jackson is on the field compared to 20.0 when Jackson misses games. Jackson is one of six players in NFL history to reach 100-plus passing touchdowns and 4,000-plus rushing yards in a career, and the fastest to reach the mark by 31 games. The Ravens are averaging 184.8 rushing yards per game with Jackson as a starter in his career -- the most by any starting quarterback since the 1970 merger.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Maybe, maybe not.
---------------------------
With the Atlanta Falcons cutting Marcus Mariota, the Lamar Jackson coming to the Dirty South rumors are out in full force.
...Releasing Marcus Mariota creates another $12M for the Falcons in cap space.
Atlanta is now armed with close to $65M in cap space in 2023, second most in the NFL. https://t.co/pABH78K8oR
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
After the last game of the season.
-------------------------------------------------
Lamar Jackson appears to send Ravens message in cryptic Instagram post
January 16, 2023
... Jackson appeared to send a message to the Baltimore team that refused to give him a five-year, fully guaranteed contract last offseason.
“When you have something good, you don’t play with it,” a message posted to Jackson’s Instagram Story read. “You don’t take chances losing it. You don’t neglect it. When you have something good, you pour into it. You appreciate it. Because when you take care of something good, that good thing takes care of you too.”
... Jackson, 26, also removed his profile picture on Instagram. His Twitter photo includes a snap of him in his Ravens uniform...
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
First QB extension is Geno Smith. What has been reported.
-- Sigmund Bloom@SigmundBloom
I’m glad he got paid but mid level QB salaries continue to be out of whack
>>> Why Geno Smith’s contract extension with the Seahawks is a win-win
... 32-year-old Pro Bowl quarterback ... three-year deal worth up to $105 million...
-- QB contract extensions from last year. Reposted info:
== Mathew Stafford 34 years old March 8. W/L 89/101/1 Rams: Four years, $160 million ($130 million guaranteed) W/L 150/79/1
Kirk Cousins 34 years old March 13. ikings: One year, $35 million (fully guaranteed) W/L 74/66/2
Aaron Rodgers 39 years old March 15. Packers: Three years, $150.8 million ($101.5 million guaranteed) W/L
Deshaun Watson 27 years old W/L 31/29 March 30. Deshaun Watson, Cleveland Browns: Five years, $230 million (fully guaranteed)
-- Contracts signed AFTER Watson --
Derek Carr 31 years old April 13. Las Vegas Raiders: Three years, $121.5 million (guaranteed pending) W/L 63/79
Kyler Murray 25 years old June 21st. W/L 25/31/1 Kyler Murray gets monster $230.5 million contract $160 million guaranteed.
The trend shows top QB contracts have and will continue to increase faster than fans realize.
... I don't expect Lamar to ask for anything less than Kyler's $160 and I suspect Burrow will eclipse that guarantee when he signs his extension and if that gets done before Jackson then I expect Jackson to look for Joe Burrow money and whatever Joe is able to land for his guarantee.
==
ADD: Ex-Raider Derek Carr agrees to 4-year contract with Saints - Carr's deal could be worth up to $150 million.
-- Anyone agree that these contracts got pushed at the last minute because teams anticipate Lamar's deal prod these mid-tear QB extensions done before LJ.
-- Sigmund Bloom@SigmundBloom
I’m glad he got paid but mid level QB salaries continue to be out of whack
>>> Why Geno Smith’s contract extension with the Seahawks is a win-win
... 32-year-old Pro Bowl quarterback ... three-year deal worth up to $105 million...
-- QB contract extensions from last year. Reposted info:
== Mathew Stafford 34 years old March 8. W/L 89/101/1 Rams: Four years, $160 million ($130 million guaranteed) W/L 150/79/1
Kirk Cousins 34 years old March 13. ikings: One year, $35 million (fully guaranteed) W/L 74/66/2
Aaron Rodgers 39 years old March 15. Packers: Three years, $150.8 million ($101.5 million guaranteed) W/L
Deshaun Watson 27 years old W/L 31/29 March 30. Deshaun Watson, Cleveland Browns: Five years, $230 million (fully guaranteed)
-- Contracts signed AFTER Watson --
Derek Carr 31 years old April 13. Las Vegas Raiders: Three years, $121.5 million (guaranteed pending) W/L 63/79
Kyler Murray 25 years old June 21st. W/L 25/31/1 Kyler Murray gets monster $230.5 million contract $160 million guaranteed.
The trend shows top QB contracts have and will continue to increase faster than fans realize.
... I don't expect Lamar to ask for anything less than Kyler's $160 and I suspect Burrow will eclipse that guarantee when he signs his extension and if that gets done before Jackson then I expect Jackson to look for Joe Burrow money and whatever Joe is able to land for his guarantee.
==
ADD: Ex-Raider Derek Carr agrees to 4-year contract with Saints - Carr's deal could be worth up to $150 million.
-- Anyone agree that these contracts got pushed at the last minute because teams anticipate Lamar's deal prod these mid-tear QB extensions done before LJ.
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And special teams!
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Be funny if they didn't tag him
The Big Donkey
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Ok so explain. Does this mean teams can offer Lamar a contract, and if he accepts the team pays what, one 1st? Two 1sts?
Seems it would put teams who pick much later in play.
Seems it would put teams who pick much later in play.
2 firsts
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Maybe Atlanta - that's the team I'd expect to sign him. Not sure they'll go full guarantee but may offer enough where he'd accept.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
So when is the deadline for a decision here? Is there a cutoff date where he can accept an offer from another team?
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