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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (5 Viewers)

MAC_32 said:
I think that's encouraging - the feeling good despite the high HR part. All I am trying to convey is that while you typically consume a lot of water during your runs that perhaps you needed to consume so much yesterday because of those higher effort runs in the days prior. If you run easier in the lead-up to your next higher quality efforts while you'll still likely need substantially more fluids than a normal human being perhaps you'll need less than in that particular effort.
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:lmao:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Thanks, everyone. I'm going to increase salt intake during the week even more, keep it easy, and let's see how next week goes.

Hopefully everyone has enjoyed this version of SaltTalk. Don't forget to tune in next week.

Btw, I'll review the couple hydration packs I tried in case anyone is interested.

 
gianmarco said:
When I go and run 5ish miles, even at a slow pace, in these current conditions, I'll drop 4-5 pounds easily at the end of the run.  I'd be happy to take some before and after weight pics to share.  I've been doing that pretty regularly to try and get a feel for exactly how much I'm losing and how much to take in. 

Believe me, I'm jealous of the vast majority of you that can get by without drinking much.  And I never used to carry any water on any runs until recently.  There is no doubt at this point that my HR climbs considerably as I get dehydrated.  I'm thirsty.  My mouth gets completely dry by the end, even on shorter runs.  I've run with the 11oz bottles in my flip belt (that's what I used before i just got this hydration pack a couple weeks ago) and that can help get me to the end of a 6-7 mile run.  In the past, when I've had a couple longer runs where I only hydrated at the car stops every few miles, I'll feel awful getting to the car, drink a good bit, and then after 5-10 minutes feel 1000x better with HR improvement.  And I would do that by drinking at least 20-30oz when I stopped. 

I'm telling you, it's awful.  There's just no good way around it at this point.  I can't carry enough to really keep up as things are.  The 2.5L pack is heavy and, while trying it out last week on shorter runs to make sure it would be good for my longer run, I think I learned that it can impact my runs just carrying it.  I struggled almost every run last week until the day I went out without it.  And it wasn't from drinking it because I was wearing it to get a feel for it and make sure it didn't rub/chafe, etc.  But if I don't bring water, then after a few miles, I'm toast. 

Unfortunately, getting out really early isn't an option when I don't get home until 7:30am 3x/week.  And keeping all runs under 6 miles isn't an option either while training. 
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I’d try some 4mi runs with a GU before and a GU at mile 2. Just see what happens and how you feel. I would be willing to bet you will feel less thirsty. 

 
gianmarco said:
We've been consciously adding more salt to our food.  I do most of the cooking and already use a good bit in general.  We've been seeking out salty food (our Ramen intake over the last 2 weeks has increased dramatically!!).  That's also why I'm trying out these salt tabs in addition to that. 

Also, just to clarify, even when we bumped up our volume during the winter for our base building, none of this was an issue.   I actually ran more from Dec-March than I am now with significantly more double digit runs.  I never carried water.  I never felt dehydrated.  Diet the same then as it is now.  My wife, doing these same runs as me (and more) in these same conditions does just fine with her 11oz bottle in her flipbelt.

This is 100% related to my sweating and how much I'm losing in each run with the heat/humidity.
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Lionel Sanders likes to eat 2 ramen noodles as his pre-race meal. That’s like 100% of daily intake. 

justbsayin ;)

 
gianmarco said:
SteelCurtain said:
Have you ever tried Nuun electrolyte tablets in your water?
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That's what I was looking into yesterday when I decided I needed to try something.  I had it between that and the SaltStick capsules.  I opted for the latter as I can just pop a capsule and drink with water and don't have to worry about mixing anything.

If those don't work or help, I'll try Nuun next.

The crazy thing is I never have cramping and my sweat is crystal clear.  So I don't THINK I'm losing excessive sodium and really do think my intake is more than sufficient, but I don't know what else to consider. 
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Fwiw, here's the Lava Salts I used and was very happy with as a cramping, Queen Elizabeth pancake face sweater.

 
Ok, so I just did a little experiment/demonstration. Mostly to recover and follow @MAC_32's advice to keep it really easy. 

Just finished 4 miles at a very slow pace (11:02). Kept my HR around 140 the whole time. It would climb on any elevation, then drop on declines, but stayed within 138-142 for most of the run and finished with AHR 140. While it's hot, the sun is completely down and wasn't that bad at all. 

I ate a bunch of salt today, even more than recently. Drank plenty. Ate plenty throughout the day, last meal about 4 hours before heading out. Felt good.

I weighed myself immediately before running and then immediately after getting home. No clothes for either (for @gruecd).

EXACTLY 3 pounds lost after just 4 miles (44 minutes).

And that's without it being really bad conditions and running faster.

My mouth was parched almost 3 miles in. The last mile felt uncomfortable despite it being mostly downhill and running it slowly.

That means I'm losing 4 pounds/hr. 

And that's consistent with yesterday. I drank 4L, or roughly 135oz.  That's about 8 pounds of fluid (16 oz = 1lb). I was down 7 pounds yesterday. At 4 pounds of sweat per hour at a super slow pace and no sun tonight, easily had to be 5 pounds/hr with sun, carrying a pack, and running faster with AHR almost 20 beats higher. That's 15 pounds of loss after 3 hours. 

I don't think 4x7oz is going to cut it.

 
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gianmarco said:
Ok, so I just did a little experiment/demonstration. Mostly to recover and follow @MAC_32's advice to keep it really easy. 

Just finished 4 miles at a very slow pace (11:02). Kept my HR around 140 the whole time. It would climb on any elevation, then drop on declines, but stayed within 138-142 for most of the run and finished with AHR 140. While it's hot, the sun is completely down and wasn't that bad at all. 

I ate a bunch of salt today, even more than recently. Drank plenty. Ate plenty throughout the day, last meal about 4 hours before heading out. Felt good.

I weighed myself immediately before running and then immediately after getting home. No clothes for either (for @gruecd).

EXACTLY 3 pounds lost after just 4 miles (44 minutes).

And that's without it being really bad conditions and running faster.

My mouth was parched almost 3 miles in. The last mile felt uncomfortable despite it being mostly downhill and running it slowly.

That means I'm losing 4 pounds/hr. 

And that's consistent with yesterday. I drank 4L, or roughly 135oz.  That's about 8 pounds of fluid (16 oz = 1lb). I was down 7 pounds yesterday. At 4 pounds of sweat per hour at a super slow pace and no sun tonight, easily had to be 5 pounds/hr with sun, carrying a pack, and running faster with AHR almost 20 beats higher. That's 15 pounds of loss after 3 hours. 

I don't think 4x7oz is going to cut it.
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Think there are some fluid replacement maths in the Hansons book if you’ve got it handy.  I don’t weigh myself regularly so I don’t know what I gain / lose on a run.  Is there some guidance that you are losing ‘too much’?

 
bushdocda said:
Think there are some fluid replacement maths in the Hansons book if you’ve got it handy.  I don’t weigh myself regularly so I don’t know what I gain / lose on a run.  Is there some guidance that you are losing ‘too much’?
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Yeah, I've looked at that already.  Here's one sweat calculator. 

Here's another.

Based on those numbers, I sweat about 2L/hr.  Average seems to be 0.8-1.4L/hr. 

This has a neat chart about what's normal.  Surprisingly, while I'm definitely at the top end, there are others that are far worse. 

But this article was a good read, for me.  Especially the example at the end.

The best data I have for a champion sweater is a male triathlete that weighs around 185 pounds. He recently completed a 90-minute run at a very aerobic pace of 10 minutes per mile at a temperature range of 84 to 92 degrees Fahrenheit with 70 percent humidity. He consumed fluid containing electrolytes, water and some electrolyte tablets during the run. His fluid consumption rate was 2.84 liters (96 oz.) per hour. He still lost weight.

This particular athlete has tested and retested himself to determine his sweat rate and to determine how much fluid he can comfortably absorb. When he runs on a hot day, even when he is acclimated to the heat, he routinely sweats at a rate of 3.6 liters (121.7 oz.) per hour. He routinely consumes 2.84 liters (96 oz.) per hour. Even consuming fluids at a relatively high rate, he loses 26 oz. of fluid or about 1.7 pounds per hour. Up to about 3.7 pounds (roughly 2 percent of his body weight), the weight loss has minimal affect on his performance.

Now, I don't know how he's taking 100oz/hr from a practical standpoint, but apparently that's just what some people have to do.  I'm just over half his sweat rate.  So, taking 50-60oz/hr seems reasonable to try and keep up.  Which is about what I did for my long run and why I felt pretty good.  I just need to suck it up, carry the pack, and have a way to refill it at the car every few miles like I've done. 

Salt tablets come in today and I'm going to try using those throughout the day as well as during the longer runs and see how it works.  I'll try it on some shorter runs to see how I tolerate them but I'm sure it'll be fine.

 
gianmarco said:
That's what I was looking into yesterday when I decided I needed to try something.  I had it between that and the SaltStick capsules.  I opted for the latter as I can just pop a capsule and drink with water and don't have to worry about mixing anything.

If those don't work or help, I'll try Nuun next.

The crazy thing is I never have cramping and my sweat is crystal clear.  So I don't THINK I'm losing excessive sodium and really do think my intake is more than sufficient, but I don't know what else to consider. 
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Sometimes it can manifest as muscle soreness, not as cramping.  Could also be lethargy, headaches, etc.  Id get on the salt simply to see what happens.  Min 2 weeks would be my thoughts.

 
gianmarco said:
Yeah, I've looked at that already.  Here's one sweat calculator. 

Here's another.

Based on those numbers, I sweat about 2L/hr.  Average seems to be 0.8-1.4L/hr. 

This has a neat chart about what's normal.  Surprisingly, while I'm definitely at the top end, there are others that are far worse. 

But this article was a good read, for me.  Especially the example at the end.

The best data I have for a champion sweater is a male triathlete that weighs around 185 pounds. He recently completed a 90-minute run at a very aerobic pace of 10 minutes per mile at a temperature range of 84 to 92 degrees Fahrenheit with 70 percent humidity. He consumed fluid containing electrolytes, water and some electrolyte tablets during the run. His fluid consumption rate was 2.84 liters (96 oz.) per hour. He still lost weight.

This particular athlete has tested and retested himself to determine his sweat rate and to determine how much fluid he can comfortably absorb. When he runs on a hot day, even when he is acclimated to the heat, he routinely sweats at a rate of 3.6 liters (121.7 oz.) per hour. He routinely consumes 2.84 liters (96 oz.) per hour. Even consuming fluids at a relatively high rate, he loses 26 oz. of fluid or about 1.7 pounds per hour. Up to about 3.7 pounds (roughly 2 percent of his body weight), the weight loss has minimal affect on his performance.

Now, I don't know how he's taking 100oz/hr from a practical standpoint, but apparently that's just what some people have to do.  I'm just over half his sweat rate.  So, taking 50-60oz/hr seems reasonable to try and keep up.  Which is about what I did for my long run and why I felt pretty good.  I just need to suck it up, carry the pack, and have a way to refill it at the car every few miles like I've done. 

Salt tablets come in today and I'm going to try using those throughout the day as well as during the longer runs and see how it works.  I'll try it on some shorter runs to see how I tolerate them but I'm sure it'll be fine.
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Thanks for the links. So you’re pissing in bottles and doing science?  Marathon training is serious. 

 
Ok, would be curious what you guys think would be best.

Just received the latest update on the Jack and Jill race in Washington.  They are still trying to move it to the end of August and waiting to get clearance from the local government.  They still feel good about the chances but obvious nothing is set.  It would likely take place Aug 29th.  We should hear by the end of the week.

Our backup option is the Fargo marathon which is taking place and is also on Aug 29th.  I've emailed the race director and he says it won't sell out and very little chance it would cancel at this point but obviously can't be guaranteed.  I have until Aug 10th to sign up for this.

The last option is to defer our J&J Washington option to Jack and Jill Boise, ID race which is also taking place on Sept 13th.  We could do this at no cost. 

Here's the info:

--J&J Washington is ideal:  2000' ft drop over the course.  Starts just over 2000 ft and goes down close to sea level.   Avg start temp 57-60

--Fargo marathon:  Pancake flat but no descent.  Avg start temp 56.

--J&J Idaho:  4000' ft drop and it starts at 6753 ft.  Also, I think it drops through 15 miles then flat for the end.  Avg start temp 54.

That last option makes me worried with the elevation.  I also worry that the steeper decline could potentially trash our quads and eliminate the benefit of the downhill.

What would you choose at this point?  I understand I'll add an asterisk to our time unless we run Fargo due to the downhill shticky route.

 
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gianmarco said:
What would you choose at this point?  I understand I'll add an asterisk to our time unless we run Fargo due to the downhill shticky route.
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Hahah, FWIW I chose Houston as my first marathon (instead of PHX/Mesa) because the former was flat and the latter was net downhill.  

So naturally my vote would be for Fargo.

I share your concerns about Idaho being too steep.  

Will hang up and listen.

 
gianmarco said:
Ok, would be curious what you guys think would be best.

Just received the latest update on the Jack and Jill race in Washington.  They are still trying to move it to the end of August and waiting to get clearance from the local government.  They still feel good about the chances but obvious nothing is set.  It would likely take place Aug 29th.  We should hear by the end of the week.

Our backup option is the Fargo marathon which is taking place and is also on Aug 29th.  I've emailed the race director and he says it won't sell out and very little chance it would cancel at this point but obviously can't be guaranteed.  I have until Aug 10th to sign up for this.

The last option is to defer our J&J Washington option to Jack and Jill Boise, ID race which is also taking place on Sept 13th.  We could do this at no cost. 

Here's the info:

--J&J Washington is ideal:  2000' ft drop over the course.  Starts just over 2000 ft and goes down close to sea level.   Avg start temp 57-60

--Fargo marathon:  Pancake flat but no descent.  Avg start temp 56.

--J&J Idaho:  4000' ft drop and it starts at 6753 ft.  Also, I think it drops through 15 miles then flat for the end.  Avg start temp 54.

That last option makes me worried with the elevation.  I also worry that the steeper decline could potentially trash our quads and eliminate the benefit of the downhill.

What would you choose at this point?  I understand I'll add an asterisk to our time unless we run Fargo due to the downhill shticky route.
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How much water will be available at the aid stations?

 
gianmarco said:
Ok, would be curious what you guys think would be best.

Just received the latest update on the Jack and Jill race in Washington.  They are still trying to move it to the end of August and waiting to get clearance from the local government.  They still feel good about the chances but obvious nothing is set.  It would likely take place Aug 29th.  We should hear by the end of the week.

Our backup option is the Fargo marathon which is taking place and is also on Aug 29th.  I've emailed the race director and he says it won't sell out and very little chance it would cancel at this point but obviously can't be guaranteed.  I have until Aug 10th to sign up for this.

The last option is to defer our J&J Washington option to Jack and Jill Boise, ID race which is also taking place on Sept 13th.  We could do this at no cost. 

Here's the info:

--J&J Washington is ideal:  2000' ft drop over the course.  Starts just over 2000 ft and goes down close to sea level.   Avg start temp 57-60

--Fargo marathon:  Pancake flat but no descent.  Avg start temp 56.

--J&J Idaho:  4000' ft drop and it starts at 6753 ft.  Also, I think it drops through 15 miles then flat for the end.  Avg start temp 54.

That last option makes me worried with the elevation.  I also worry that the steeper decline could potentially trash our quads and eliminate the benefit of the downhill.

What would you choose at this point?  I understand I'll add an asterisk to our time unless we run Fargo due to the downhill shticky route.
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No asterisk. I honestly believe the Idaho course would be tougher than all of them. 

 
gianmarco said:
Ok, would be curious what you guys think would be best.

Just received the latest update on the Jack and Jill race in Washington.  They are still trying to move it to the end of August and waiting to get clearance from the local government.  They still feel good about the chances but obvious nothing is set.  It would likely take place Aug 29th.  We should hear by the end of the week.

Our backup option is the Fargo marathon which is taking place and is also on Aug 29th.  I've emailed the race director and he says it won't sell out and very little chance it would cancel at this point but obviously can't be guaranteed.  I have until Aug 10th to sign up for this.

The last option is to defer our J&J Washington option to Jack and Jill Boise, ID race which is also taking place on Sept 13th.  We could do this at no cost. 

Here's the info:

--J&J Washington is ideal:  2000' ft drop over the course.  Starts just over 2000 ft and goes down close to sea level.   Avg start temp 57-60

--Fargo marathon:  Pancake flat but no descent.  Avg start temp 56.

--J&J Idaho:  4000' ft drop and it starts at 6753 ft.  Also, I think it drops through 15 miles then flat for the end.  Avg start temp 54.

That last option makes me worried with the elevation.  I also worry that the steeper decline could potentially trash our quads and eliminate the benefit of the downhill.

What would you choose at this point?  I understand I'll add an asterisk to our time unless we run Fargo due to the downhill shticky route.
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Any travel pros/cons between the options?Easier in/out, stay after for a few days, etc??  

 
bushdocda said:
Any travel pros/cons between the options?Easier in/out, stay after for a few days, etc??  
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Not really, AFAIK. We have to fly to any of them and stay in a hotel. Logistically, none of them seem complicated. 

And #1 goal for this race is a BQ for the Mrs. 

I still think J&J Washington presents the best bet for that which is why I'm still waiting to see if it's on before deciding but open to the other 2. 

 
gianmarco said:
Ok, would be curious what you guys think would be best.

Just received the latest update on the Jack and Jill race in Washington.  They are still trying to move it to the end of August and waiting to get clearance from the local government.  They still feel good about the chances but obvious nothing is set.  It would likely take place Aug 29th.  We should hear by the end of the week.

Our backup option is the Fargo marathon which is taking place and is also on Aug 29th.  I've emailed the race director and he says it won't sell out and very little chance it would cancel at this point but obviously can't be guaranteed.  I have until Aug 10th to sign up for this.

The last option is to defer our J&J Washington option to Jack and Jill Boise, ID race which is also taking place on Sept 13th.  We could do this at no cost. 

Here's the info:

--J&J Washington is ideal:  2000' ft drop over the course.  Starts just over 2000 ft and goes down close to sea level.   Avg start temp 57-60

--Fargo marathon:  Pancake flat but no descent.  Avg start temp 56.

--J&J Idaho:  4000' ft drop and it starts at 6753 ft.  Also, I think it drops through 15 miles then flat for the end.  Avg start temp 54.

That last option makes me worried with the elevation.  I also worry that the steeper decline could potentially trash our quads and eliminate the benefit of the downhill.

What would you choose at this point?  I understand I'll add an asterisk to our time unless we run Fargo due to the downhill shticky route.
Click to expand...
Wait on J&J-W, and pivot (said in Ross Geller voice) to Fargo if necessary.

 
What happened with the 1-mile thing last month?  Did I miss anything else other than gianmarco consuming 58 gallons of water per run?

It’s funny, over the past month of FBG suspension I didn’t miss anything other than this thread.  

 
Alex P Keaton said:
What happened with the 1-mile thing last month?  Did I miss anything else other than gianmarco consuming 58 gallons of water per run?

It’s funny, over the past month of FBG suspension I didn’t miss anything other than this thread.  
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You get suspended for an entire month, and the first thing you do when you get back is make fun of someone? You trying for 2 months? Leave @gianmarco alone before @gruecd catches wind of it. Welcome back!

 
gruecd said:
Wait on J&J-W, and pivot (said in Ross Geller voice) to Fargo if necessary.
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^ this. Hopefully in the next month it can become more clear and as you'll need to know what date to taper for. But still far enough out to be flexible!

 
I asked before, but does anybody else have problems with their phone/watch/whatever losing the plot when there's obstructions overhead? when I ran in more wooded areas in MD, the pace would go wonky. I have a section here under an elevated highway- same.

I am running with my google pixel 3a in my hand, with strava. 

I checked strava on my laptop to see what kind of pace I was doing for my 1/2 mile pickups and it was all over the place. pretty sure I was around 6:45, although strava is giving me a 3:03 and a pr. according to my phone and strava, I ran some sub 3ish-min/m segments today... unlikely.

 
El Floppo said:
I asked before, but does anybody else have problems with their phone/watch/whatever losing the plot when there's obstructions overhead? when I ran in more wooded areas in MD, the pace would go wonky. I have a section here under an elevated highway- same.

I am running with my google pixel 3a in my hand, with strava. 

I checked strava on my laptop to see what kind of pace I was doing for my 1/2 mile pickups and it was all over the place. pretty sure I was around 6:45, although strava is giving me a 3:03 and a pr. according to my phone and strava, I ran some sub 3ish-min/m segments today... unlikely.
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I have same issue as I usually run in the city with buildings being close together and such. When I go under bridges the Garmin doesn't know what to do and sometimes it feels like it's just guessing a direction that I went until it can pick up a signal again. 

Don't think I've ever had this issue in the woods though. What planet are these trees from?

 
El Floppo said:
I asked before, but does anybody else have problems with their phone/watch/whatever losing the plot when there's obstructions overhead? when I ran in more wooded areas in MD, the pace would go wonky. I have a section here under an elevated highway- same.

I am running with my google pixel 3a in my hand, with strava. 

I checked strava on my laptop to see what kind of pace I was doing for my 1/2 mile pickups and it was all over the place. pretty sure I was around 6:45, although strava is giving me a 3:03 and a pr. according to my phone and strava, I ran some sub 3ish-min/m segments today... unlikely.
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Yes, happens with my watch. Not uncommon with tall buildings. But for me, there's a wooded section in the park I've been running where paces are way off. I'm sure the tree cover just interferes with satellite connection.

 
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