butcher boy
Footballguy
It's not that it's gospel, it's just that I'd agree with what an actual doctor says over what the coach says who has strategic reasons for wanting to give the more optimistic recovery timeframe.
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Ryan Mathews likely out until October (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dimenna
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massraider
Footballguy
You mention what the Chargers said, and other information you have seen. There is no other information. What information?The doctor said on average it takes 8.8 weeks. On average is on average. Two months seems pretty reasonable. The doctor doesn't have any less credibility because he is on TV. nfl.com is not ProFootballTalk, they don't have a history of sensationalism or anything like that. Suggesting that the doctor is making up some worst case numbers to increase web traffic is frankly an insult to anyone reading this thread. Norv said 4-6. Cool. There is a doctor saying it could easily be more. Without doing any further research, just dismissing the anyone's qualified opinion seems a bit silly to me.
NJ
Footballguy
And this doctor doesn't have a strategic reason for giving a more pessimistic timeframe? If he comes on and says Mathews could be out anywhere from 4 to 8 weeks, that's not news, it doesn't change anything and nobody would care and his mug wouldn't be all over NFL live and NFL.com. But if he comes on and says it takes 8 weeks for all clavicle injuries to heal, that doom and gloom report IS newsworthy. I assume the guy actually does have some knowledge and isn't a total quack. I assume he knows there are varying degrees of severity of clavicle injuries and the expected timeframes to heal are different. So to come on TV and say this injury takes 8 weeks to heal and he'll be out until October when he presumably doesn't even know the severity or specifics of the injury doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
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ponchsox
Footballguy
I think people are overreacting a little here. He could miss anywhere from 1-4 games, we don't know for sure. What makes him a pick after the 5th round if McFadden is a 1st rounder and can pretty much count on him missing at least a couple games at some point this season? Does it matter if it's the first few games or later in the season? Wouldn't it be worse if happened come playoff time?
VaTerp
Footballguy
1) I'm mostly going based on what the Chargers said. But I have seen other info and speculation from other people. That's good enough for me, doesnt have to be for you.2) "On average" needs to be taken in context because of all of the questions I mentioned.3) If you think that I'm suggesting that the doctor is "making up some worst case numbers to increase web traffic" then you need to re-read what I said. I didn't suggest that. And for you to say it's an insult to anyone is a ridiculous and silly comment. Mathews COULD miss up to 8 weeks and be out until October so it's not sensationalism for nfl.com to say that. But they know what they are doing when they run a headline that says Doctor: Mathews Likely Out until October when fantasy geeks are preparing for drafts. They know that's gonna get more hits than "Former NBA and MLB Team Doctor thinks Mathews timeline is closer to 8 weeks."
johnadams
Footballguy
Dr. whatshisname would probably be the first to say that 8.8 weeks is HIS best guess given that the average time is 8.8 weeks. Depending on the severity and the patient, healing can happen faster or slower than average. I haven't heard that Mathews needs surgery, which is an immediate sign that he would fall below the average (given that those who need surgery require longer recoveries, thus creating a longer average).
However, as a drafter, I'm going in skeptical of a 6 week timeframe. I'm going to draft as though he's missing at least four weeks. However, this still puts him in the round 5-6 range for me. In reality, unless I have an injury, the second line of RBs don't start until at least this point anyway, so I'm cool having a bench spot for someone I expect to be close to a workhorse back when he returns.
However, as a drafter, I'm going in skeptical of a 6 week timeframe. I'm going to draft as though he's missing at least four weeks. However, this still puts him in the round 5-6 range for me. In reality, unless I have an injury, the second line of RBs don't start until at least this point anyway, so I'm cool having a bench spot for someone I expect to be close to a workhorse back when he returns.
pantherclub
Footballguy
I thought he had surgery already and its been shown in teh past that Matthews is not one of those fast healer type dudes.
VaTerp
Footballguy
He did have surgery but it's already been discussed that no longer is an indication of the severity of the break.In terms of Mathews, not being a fast healer I know that's the consensus opinion and he has been banged up more than his share. But I asked a question earlier in this thread that still has not been answered. How can Mathews be so soft, injury prone, and unwilling to play through pain as many have suggested in this thread yet still have played in 14 of 16 games last year?
butcher boy
Footballguy
His reputation is that he takes himself out of games a heck of a lot more than usual, so he might play in 14 of 16 games, but does he play the whole game? I don't know how many times he's done this, but people who watched SD games last year commented on how he was always flagging for Tolbert to sub in. He also missed more than 2 games in 2010.
NJ
Footballguy
This is the exact opposite of everything that I have seen. He did have surgery, the day after the injury and the reason that athletes in contact sports often have surgery for the injury is because it helps stabilize the injury and promote a quicker recovery. As has been pointed out, Colston had surgery and was back in 3 weeks. On the flip side, AP had this injury in college, didn't have surgery and missed 7 weeks.
VaTerp
Footballguy
Yeah I know he missed 2 games last year and 4 games in 2010. So he's played 26 of 32 possible games as a pro. And I know he's had more than his share of injuries and ailments. But I still don't think that adds up to all of the things said about him. I watched my share of Chargers games the last 2 years and think the taking himself out bit is being overstated. But that doesnt really matter.At the end of the day, it's about the production. Missing 2 games last year and not being at 100% for several others, Mathews still finished 7th among RBs in total points in my league last year. It doesn't matter how many times he comes out of a game as long as he's productive.I'm still willing to bet on the guy being productive this year. Understandably, many others aren't. That's cool. All part of the fun of this game. We'll see.
RavenLunatic
Footballguy
Dr Jene doesn't seem very concerned with the injury if you read his latest take in his blog or in the RB Tiers article.
You just never know with any RB if they will get hurt but I think a chronic injury (Beanie/Jahvid) is alot more worrisome than a broken bone.
You just never know with any RB if they will get hurt but I think a chronic injury (Beanie/Jahvid) is alot more worrisome than a broken bone.
death of the cool
Footballguy
Frankly I don't think this changes anything...
If you were willing to draft Mathews after the injury, he is still going to be on your radar.
I can easily see him out until October, but I can also see back for game 2.
If you were willing to draft Mathews after the injury, he is still going to be on your radar.
I can easily see him out until October, but I can also see back for game 2.
ponchsox
Footballguy
Interesting how before the injury he was being viewed as the #4 RB off the board in most leagues and an easy first round pick. We don't even know how many games he will miss and people won't even touch him until after the 3rd round. Why is McFadden a 1st rounder if we know he's going to miss a least a couple of games?
pantherclub
Footballguy
because he doesnt have screws in his collarbone right nowInteresting how before the injury he was being viewed as the #4 RB off the board in most leagues and an easy first round pick. We don't even know how many games he will miss and people won't even touch him until after the 3rd round. Why is McFadden a 1st rounder if we know he's going to miss a least a couple of games?
Jene Bramel
Footballguy
The orthopedic surgeon referenced the 8.8 wk average recovery time but didn't apply that specifically to Mathews. His main point was that 6-8 weeks is likely a better estimate for this type of injury than 4-6. I posted a link to my post in the other Mathews thread, where I argued pretty much the same thing.
There's no gray area with Mathews for most, though. If you felt he was a fragile, high injury risk option before this, your feelings have been reinforced and he's probably undraftable with a 12-14 game season in front of him at best. If you liked his talent and situation, the loss of 2-4 early season weeks probably doesn't bother you as much.
What I saw and heard on Mathews last year suggested he'd become a more mature and tougher player than he was as a rookie. That's certainly debatable. If you're betting on Mathews, though, I wouldn't fear the 6-8 week estimate. The longer he sits -- theoretically, since we've no true idea of how severe the fracture was -- the less likely he is to re-injure his shoulder.
ETA: Here's the video clip if you want to see the brief discussion in its entirety. The headline and article left out what I'd bet the doc considered the most pertinent Mathews-specific comment.
There's no gray area with Mathews for most, though. If you felt he was a fragile, high injury risk option before this, your feelings have been reinforced and he's probably undraftable with a 12-14 game season in front of him at best. If you liked his talent and situation, the loss of 2-4 early season weeks probably doesn't bother you as much.
What I saw and heard on Mathews last year suggested he'd become a more mature and tougher player than he was as a rookie. That's certainly debatable. If you're betting on Mathews, though, I wouldn't fear the 6-8 week estimate. The longer he sits -- theoretically, since we've no true idea of how severe the fracture was -- the less likely he is to re-injure his shoulder.
ETA: Here's the video clip if you want to see the brief discussion in its entirety. The headline and article left out what I'd bet the doc considered the most pertinent Mathews-specific comment.
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Insein
Footballguy
Why is he even in the league anymore? Guy needs to just hang it up already.late round flier as a lottery ticket
Run It Up
Footballguy
Well, because he isnt guaranteed to miss those games yet (unlike mathews) is probably the smaller point. The bigger being that he is more talented than Mathews.Interesting how before the injury he was being viewed as the #4 RB off the board in most leagues and an easy first round pick. We don't even know how many games he will miss and people won't even touch him until after the 3rd round. Why is McFadden a 1st rounder if we know he's going to miss a least a couple of games?
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wtf does toughness have to do with how quickly a bone heals?
RUSF18
Footballguy
My doctor's friend said 4 weeks.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
This guy may end up becoming Ryan's doctor after all.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Meanwhile, Mathews isn't backing off his previous prediction:
people saying he will be out til week 9 and they might take him on a flyer in round 10 or round 14 are simply bad fantasy owners. you can't think like that and be a decent fantasy owner. this guy missed 2 games last year and was in a timeshare with Tolbert and finished #7 RB. this year there is no Tolbert and he is still saying he won't miss any games and appears in better shape and even better motivated. if lots of drafters are letting him slide into the mid-2nd round or later as it seems most on this website are there is insane value to be had. I've never seen more people miss the boat with such shallow and poor thinking than writing off Mathews due to an injury that it's still yet to be determined how long he will be out on.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Not to mention that I'm confident enough in my drafting ability to be firmly in contention whenever he gets back. Then it's gravy.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Good fantasy owners lol.
Maybe they're confident enough in their drafting ability that they know Mathews won't be effective when coming back and they can win by picking players that aren't so injury prone and whom don't already have a significant injury that won't have enough time to heal completely, which could result in a re-injuring of that specific injury or an aggravation that would make the player ineffective; but maybe...just maybe.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
cstu
Footballguy
A little different that having Ray Lewis come at him with enough force to
I'm tired of the Mathews owners or the Mathews drafters who keep saying "Colston came back in 2 weeks" and deriding people for even insinuating that he could be out 6+ weeks even when they also say it's possible that he'll be back the 1st week of regular season. What we say isn't going to change when he comes back at full strength, so stop getting butt hurt. But completely ignoring the chance that he might not come back until October is ridiculous.
Perhaps, but I'll take the doctor's word more than Mathews', and I'm a Mathews fan.
GMacsTiedUpInMyBasemment
Footballguy
I am a surgeon myself, and generally I'd agree with this point. In this case, though, it's reasonable to think that he'll be back somewhere in the middle. This doc has never seen his films, never examined him and was not there at the time of fixation. The study he quoted has an average of 8.8 weeks until return, but what's the standard deviation? Were just as many guys back in 6 as were back in 11? There's so much variability in all patients, and it is no different when dealing with elite athletes. I'm guessing (guessing) he'll be out six and will miss two games. Honestly, though, my guess is only as good as Jene's or the doc from the articles in that it is only a guess. Unless I heard it from his own team doc or his surgeon, that's the best info I got.
its not pointless. it means that as soon as the bone heals, he should be able to step in and be effective. he wont need to spend so much time to get his fitness back and work off the rust.
buck naked
Footballguy
Good post, doc. Thanks!
Tau837
Footballguy
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Healing time varies based on age, health, complexity and location of the break as well as the bone displacement. For adults, a minimum of 2-6 weeks of sling immobilization is normally employed to allow initial bone and soft tissue healing, teenagers require slightly less, children can often achieve the same level in two weeks. During this period, patients may remove the sling to practice passive pendulum Range of Motion (ROM) exercises to reduce atrophy in the elbow and shoulder, but they are minimized to 15-20 degrees off vertical. Depending on the severity of fracture a person can begin to use the arm if comfortable with movement and no pain results. The final result is to be able to have full range of motion with no pain, therefore, if any pain exists it is best to allow for more recovery time. Depending on severity of the fracture, athletes involved in contact sports may need a longer period of rest to heal to avoid re-fracturing bone. A person should be able to return unrestricted to any sports or work by 3 months after the injury
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavicle_fracture#Prognosis
Surgery
Surgery may be required for a fractured collarbone if the bone has broken through your skin, if it is severely out of place or if the bone has broken into several pieces. Broken collarbone surgery usually includes placing fixation devices — plates, screws or rods — to maintain proper position of your bone during healing. Complications are rare, but can include infection and lack of bone healing.
Clavicle fractures should heal completely within 12 weeks, but the pain usually subsides within a few weeks. Often patients are back to full activities before 12 weeks has passed, especially with younger patients.
When can I return to my sport or activity?
Return to full participation should be avoided until your clavicle fracture has healed and you can perform all skills and other requirements of your sport without pain. To return earlier is to invite further injury, making subsequent fractures more likely. This is especially true when the sport involves heavy contact, such as in football, hockey, or rugby.
Generally, the athlete who wishes to return to a contact sport should expect to be out of action for 6 to 12 weeks. Again, the time to return to full activity depends on the dedication toward your rehabilitation program.
Remember: the goal of rehabilitation is to return you to your sport or activity as soon as is safely possible. If you return too soon you may worsen your injury, which could lead to permanent damage. Everyone recovers from injury at a different rate. Return to your activity is determined by how soon your clavicle fracture recovers, not by how many days or weeks it has been since your injury occurred
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavicle_fracture#Prognosis
Surgery
Surgery may be required for a fractured collarbone if the bone has broken through your skin, if it is severely out of place or if the bone has broken into several pieces. Broken collarbone surgery usually includes placing fixation devices — plates, screws or rods — to maintain proper position of your bone during healing. Complications are rare, but can include infection and lack of bone healing.
Clavicle fractures should heal completely within 12 weeks, but the pain usually subsides within a few weeks. Often patients are back to full activities before 12 weeks has passed, especially with younger patients.
When can I return to my sport or activity?
Return to full participation should be avoided until your clavicle fracture has healed and you can perform all skills and other requirements of your sport without pain. To return earlier is to invite further injury, making subsequent fractures more likely. This is especially true when the sport involves heavy contact, such as in football, hockey, or rugby.
Generally, the athlete who wishes to return to a contact sport should expect to be out of action for 6 to 12 weeks. Again, the time to return to full activity depends on the dedication toward your rehabilitation program.
Remember: the goal of rehabilitation is to return you to your sport or activity as soon as is safely possible. If you return too soon you may worsen your injury, which could lead to permanent damage. Everyone recovers from injury at a different rate. Return to your activity is determined by how soon your clavicle fracture recovers, not by how many days or weeks it has been since your injury occurred
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Not to argue that point, but look at Jason Campbell last year, had half a season to recover and never got up off the mat. Clavicles are tricky. I agree with the armchair doc that Mathews is probably out till October, but broken clavicles are bad news no matter what the position in question is.
Warpig
Footballguy
I own this delicate butterfly in 3 of my leagues. Common sense tells me he should be out at least 6 weeks and then maybe be eased back in.
My wife is a physical therapist and I just sent a text to her asking her for her professional opinion on how long an athlete should be out with this type of injury. She has treated professional athletes in the past and should know. I'll update this post when I hear back from her.
My wife is a physical therapist and I just sent a text to her asking her for her professional opinion on how long an athlete should be out with this type of injury. She has treated professional athletes in the past and should know. I'll update this post when I hear back from her.
GMacsTiedUpInMyBasemment
Footballguy
I'd caution people from deriving any meaningful medical insight on this case from wikipedia. As has been stated on this board before (I think), the paradigm is shifting on the treatment of clavicular fractures to a more aggressive, operative approach. The exact location and orientation of the fracture line on the bone is likely the crucial piece of info here that we don't have. This is what makes speculation somewhat difficult and even experts like the doctor from the nfl.com article, are using averages. I have been unable to find the article he quotes, though he states it in the plural as though there are multiple. I find it hard to imagine that there is one (much less more than one) adequately powered study of NFL players after clavicle fractures. It is even less likely that any such study would compare the treatment arms of operative v non-operative management. A quick search on pubmed yielded very little in the way of good data on return to action for high level athletes after clavicle fracture. Most of the studies are on specific types of fractures and their outcomes (ie midclavicular/midshaft, comminuted, displaced, etc)There is a recent case study:
Clavicular Fracture in a Collegiate Football Player: A Case Report of Rapid Return to Play
Sarah B. Rabe, MS, LAT, ATC and Gretchen D. Oliver, PhD, LAT, ATC
J Athl Train. 2011 Jan-Feb; 46(1): 107–111.
doi: 10.4085/1062-6050-46.1.107
In this case, the football player was back to playing in five weeks. Obviously, this seems the exception rather than the rule or it wouldn't merit being published as a case report.
Again, neither I nor anyone else knows the specifics of the fracture, so the guesses are nothing more. The guy in the nfl.com article is certainly an expert, but I'm not sure of the studies he's quoting and I personally don't believe the article changes anything regarding his timetable for return.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I googled earlier on a friends doctors computer and found that Mathews had an Adamantium infusion around the said breakage and that he will be ready for week 1 - just FYI
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