Ghost Rider
Footballguy
No problem.
Also, I think it is worth noting that while Simms was the starting QB for most of the '90 season when Parcells won his 2nd title, Jeff Hostetler was the QB in the playoffs and Super Bowl.Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
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Shanahan vs. Belichick (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter thesurfshop19
- Start date
Also, I think it is worth noting that while Simms was the starting QB for most of the '90 season when Parcells won his 2nd title, Jeff Hostetler was the QB in the playoffs and Super Bowl.
moleculo
Footballguy
Knowing what we know now, does tonights game change anyones opinions? I say Shannahan won the coaching matchup this evening - the all-out blitzes seemed to get to Brady - I thought this was evident on the Pat's first posession when Brady was shaking his fist at Lynch. The pats did cover with the screens/slants, but I think these blitzes were the reason Brady was a little off the rest of the night.
On the other side of the ball - I really liked the Broncos game plan. stick to the running game and attack the DB's with height mismatch (Samuel @ 5'10", Lelie @ 6'3"). This opened up the bootleg in the second half, which is the ultimate objective of the Bronco offense.
Sure, the fumbles helped, but you can't argue the game would be significantly different if they didn't happen.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I thought both guys coached a great game. Shanahan had a great plan on defense, which was pretty much knock the stuffing out of Brady and when the running game wasn't working on offense, he had some nice passing plays to open things up. And his play-calling on Denver's 2nd-to-last drive to kill much of the clock was masterful. I think his play-call on the 4th and short play in the first half was a poor one, but other than that, I think he did a great job. Belichick did a great job with getting his defense to stop the run. The offense struggled early, but was making some big plays with long passes and screens against the blitzes in the second half. It isn't Belichick's fault that his players fumbled three times and that Brady made some poor decisions.
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Gotta take my medicine. Yes, the Broncos won, but save for 2 plays, the Pats thoroughly outplayed the Broncos. In reality, outside ol the outcome, the game went as I saw it. Brady thres the ball all over. His pick was HUGE though. The Broncos were unable to establish an effective run game, and the NE secondary held up. I did say the only way the Broncos win is Plummer being huge. I was wrong. NE gave the game away. Three plays defined the game. The phantom pass interference call. It wasn't. to say you should overcome that is nonsense. Second and 10 at the 40, when you've been unable to move the ball is a whole lot different than first and goal at the one. Pats got screwed. Brady's pick to Bailey. Even after that, Watson makes a good play to force a fumble, that should have gone back to the Pats on a touchback, but hey, Brady shouldn't have thrown that ball that flat. He had the receiver. If he put's the ball up high, over the receivers shoulder, Bailey has no play. Bad Brady. Browns fumble. Again, the Broncos have the ball on the doorstep. So, on 2 of the plays the Pats really gave the game away. On the third. the refs get an assist. The Pats still could have held, and didn't. But in the end, there is no way anybody could come away from this saying Shanny outcoached Belichick. Poor play on two plays, and a bad call, gave shanny the win. The rest of the game was dominated by the Pats, much of it by scheme.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
Well I don't like Shanahan at all, but he coached the game well. Saw a lot of bad decisions early from both sides:Belichick taking a holding penalty when Denver failed to convert on a 3rd and 10ish. Backed up the Broncos and the Broncos converted on 3rd and long. Belichick should have forced the field goal attempt there. 
Shanahan going for the touchdown on 4th and goal at the 1, should have taken the points. There were some other mistakes I saw, but cannot recall them at this time. For myself, it appeared the Patriots out-played the Broncos, but then that just gives even more credit to Shanahan for the Broncos still winning. Not a lot of mistakes by the Broncos, the capitalized on opportunities and limited the opportunities they gave the Patriots.
Shanahan going for the touchdown on 4th and goal at the 1, should have taken the points. There were some other mistakes I saw, but cannot recall them at this time. For myself, it appeared the Patriots out-played the Broncos, but then that just gives even more credit to Shanahan for the Broncos still winning. Not a lot of mistakes by the Broncos, the capitalized on opportunities and limited the opportunities they gave the Patriots.We saw Shanahan sacrifice the post Elway era by leveraging the cap to build a SB team for Elway. We have seen Belichick buld a team that has been no worst than 9-7 since his first year at 5-11. We have seen him retool every year, and they're built to be right in contention again next year. Has BB done it without Brady? No, but Shanahan had Elway in the same time frame that BB has had Brady (3-6 years), and no rings. He only got them late. And think about what you're comparing. A coach 'developing' the #1 pick in the draft into a 2x champion, and a coach developing a 6th rounder into a 3x champion. Shanahan won his title when his coaching staff was intact for 5 years. He was able to keep his O coordinator, but with turnover on the D side, they struggled. BB had his for 5 years, and had 3 rings. Lost them, and still is in contention. Right now, I say because of his expertise on both sides of the ball, BB is the better coach. But, I also agree that this discussion will likely take many a turn over the next 10 years, and possibly 20.
moleculo
Footballguy
I don't think I agree with much of the above. Shannahan (as a HC) had Elway for 1995-1998 - a four year span which netted two superbowls. After Elway retired the team went 6-10. This was not due to a salary cap pruge as was implied, nor was it due to turmoil on the defensive coaching ranks (most Bronco fans believe Greg Robinson of the SB era was one of the worst defensive cordinators we have had...ever).I believe it had more to do with A) starting a rookie QB who was mediocre at best (although he did start ahead of Brady in college). and B) Terell Davis blowing out his knee early on in the season and C) the departure of Steve Atwater. In fact, the 6-10 team in 1999 and the 14-2 team n 1998 had very similar rosters - 9 returning defensive starters and 9 returning starters on offense. After that season, the Broncos went 11-5, 8-8, 9-7, etc...
Also - for the record, Shanahan won his first championship in his 3rd year with the team, not the fifth.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
While I agree that was a bad call, to say the Broncos had been unable to move the ball is incorrect. Two of Denver's three previous drives consisted of a long drive that resulted in Denver turning the ball over on downs inside the 5 and another drive that was looking good until Samuel made a fantastic interception on a Plummer throw. So, there is no way of knowing if Denver would have scored anyway had that PI not been called.
How can you say the Pats dominated the game?? The Broncos had Brady dumbfounded when it counted in Denver side of the field. Did the Pats move the ball down the field...YES.. but could they finish it offwith a TD...NOPE. So the Broncos schemed enough to win the game. No team dominated this game despite the score. And on the Baily's Interception/fumble? just call it the payback for the "Tuck Rule" against the Raiders which could of gone either way. The Patriots have got calls like those all thru the Pats Super Bowl runs. To me it was also just as close to see if Baily had a hold of the ball when it crossed the Goal line. There is no proof that the ball crossed before or after.
And as for as the "phantom pass interference call" there was contact after 5 yards. And it could of gone either way. The Pats Defender was "leaning" into Lelie and Lelie was trying to push off.
Guess you can say that why it pays to get the homefield to get some of the calls.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
I need some more defense of this statement - while I agree that there is no way Shannie outcoached Belichek, there is also no way you could look at this game and say the Pats "thoroughly outplayed" the Broncos.Broncs had more first downs than the Pats - they had a more balanced offensive attack - 6 rush first downs, 9 pass first downs versus Pats' 3 rush 12 pass first downs. The Broncos had the ability to run more rushing plays, which gave them the edge in time of possession.The Broncos' defense was stellar - they gave up a lot of yards to Brady, but had the timely plays on defense, gave up only one TD, and forced a FG instead of a TD - something noone seems to have been able to do the last two months.While it was the combination of the Pats shooting themselves in the foot that decided the game, the Broncos played very well - and I can't see how they were "thoroughly outplayed"
SSOG
Moderator
Brown fumbled as a result of Belichick's poor call (went for an all-out block, which meant Brown had to sprint 50 yards downfield, get set, find the ball, and get underneath it all in a matter of maybe 4 seconds). That fumble falls on Belichick's shoulders as much as Browns. Also, how can a team that turns the ball over FIVE TIMES be said to have outplayed the opposition. Denver finished +4 in TO differential.Also, the play SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN RULED A TOUCHBACK. The rules are that the call on the field can only be overturned if there's incontrovertible evidence... and there wasn't. You might think there was, but there wasn't. I've seen pictures of the fumble from perfect angles to tell that show that the ball went out of bounds BEFORE THE PYLON. It was ridiculously close, but how could there be incontrovertible evidence that the ball went through the end zone when the best camera angle I've seen shows that it was out of bounds first?
This comes off as a sore-loser reply, much like Matt Leinart and his whole "Oh, well, the better team lost today" whine after the Championship. I remember after 2001 when Patriot fans were insistant that the winning team was always the better team, shouting down all of the Rams fans with their "better team lost" mentality. And now here are the Patriots, doing it all over again. Guess what- the Broncos were favored by 3.5 by Vegas. The game wasn't an upset. The better team didn't lose.
So I guess part of Belicheck's brilliance was having Brady throw the ball into empty space or into the dirt more than to his own receivers.NE had no answer to the pressure that the Broncos put on Brady - none. They created turnovers, bad throws, & false starts. Except for a couple plays, of course since you want to isolate plays, that went for long gainers (but not scores) in the passing game.Shanahan's Donkeys punched Belicheck's Pats square in the mouth, and the answer was 5 coughed up balls & a NE loss. That's good coaching.
