kupcho1
Footballguy
You've got a much better memory than I do; I have no recollection of Welles' narration. Usually, narration is not a good sign (see: Barbie/Hellen Mirren).
In any case, I think this version has been outstanding.
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Shogun coming to TV (again) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
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In any case, I think this version has been outstanding.
brun
Footballguy
I don't remember the narration either.
I remember I liked the book better. I remember the book was big. That's about it. It was a long time ago.
I do like the current series very much though.
Moonlight
Footballguy
The occasional narration in the first was a device that assisted the audience in figuring out what was happening. The first version focused on playing out as a Stranger in a Strange Land theme and emphasized events playing out through Blackthornes eyes.
The current version provides more emphasis on the Japanese point of view.
Moonlight
Footballguy
Watched the third episode and realized that in comparison to the book and the 1980s version that Shogun has now become “woke”.
Lady Mariko has now become a bad *** warrior capable of fighting and disposing 3 or 4 samurai at a time. In the book and original series she was also very brave but did it in other ways that depended on her intelligence and sacrifice in service to her Lord.
Was disappointed that for some reason they decided to kill off Mariko’s husband Buntaro. The tension between her and her husband and later further heightened by Blackthorne’s intrusion influenced many of the later events.
Shogun was my favorite book for a long time and was very pleased on how the 1980 series captured its essence and stayed true to the story.
Lady Mariko has now become a bad *** warrior capable of fighting and disposing 3 or 4 samurai at a time. In the book and original series she was also very brave but did it in other ways that depended on her intelligence and sacrifice in service to her Lord.
Was disappointed that for some reason they decided to kill off Mariko’s husband Buntaro. The tension between her and her husband and later further heightened by Blackthorne’s intrusion influenced many of the later events.
Shogun was my favorite book for a long time and was very pleased on how the 1980 series captured its essence and stayed true to the story.
kupcho1
Footballguy
I don't recall seeing him die onscreen.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
He happened to fall behind as they left in the rowboats, and they couldn’t go back. The head nods implied he had served well and was about to die. They rowed on while he went back up the dock into a bunch of enemies, and the last we see he’s in the midst of them in the shadows of a building.
kupcho1
Footballguy
I could have sworn he entered the building.
If they wanted a real emotional impact, they'd have shown his death onscreen. They haven't been shy about showing guys getting gutted like a fish. I'm not a fan of fake-outs (if that's indeed what this was), but I think that's where we are headed.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Good point! Maybe he didn't die and will reappear at an inopportune time. Hmm...
AAABatteries
Footballguy
So, I started with subtitles off, turned it on and it had the dubbing too. Didn’t want that and turned it off but now all the dialogue is in English. Anybody have any idea how to “fix” this?
ETA - apparently it’s a YTTV issue. Recommendation is to watch it on Hulu which thankfully we have also.
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DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
He was facing overwhelming odds 15-20/1 and was retreating/ being forced into a street/alley by his opponents.
And the tension between him and blackthorn was great in the book.
Moe.
Footballguy
Just keep on walking and maybe he’ll go away
kupcho1
Footballguy
Yeah, lady assassin. As if.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Yes, this goes back to Star Wars 7-9. Now if female characters level up too quickly, it's proof of "woke", I guess.
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Never read the books. I'm a middle aged male who enjoyed Tom Cruise in Samurai. Enjoyed reading Art of War by Sun Tzu. Did not like Matt Damon in Great Wall.
Watched 1st two episodes. Right up my interest level. After thoroughly enjoying all the Netflix Narcos series Ive learned to be okay reading subtitles. Characters are solid. Storyline seems good. Obviously put some money into it because the production is great. Overall a nice early watch that has kept my interest. Solid.
On a side note. Netflix Marco Polo is a nice watch if you had interest in this. I enjoyed it way more then critics.
Watched 1st two episodes. Right up my interest level. After thoroughly enjoying all the Netflix Narcos series Ive learned to be okay reading subtitles. Characters are solid. Storyline seems good. Obviously put some money into it because the production is great. Overall a nice early watch that has kept my interest. Solid.
On a side note. Netflix Marco Polo is a nice watch if you had interest in this. I enjoyed it way more then critics.
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TennesseeJed
Footballguy
I don't think the sailor who was boiled died on screen either, but he is surely dead...
kupcho1
Footballguy
So you're saying we definitely won't see Buntaro again. OK.
need2know
Footballguy
Marco polo had some awesome fights.
My favorite was when despite being blind he was able to find his opponent in the pool.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
I'm not liking this as much as the original Shogun. The original moved at a better pace. Not faster. Just more meaningful and thoughful. Frankly I think Richard Chamberlain was so awesome in it that this new one had no chance with me. Yoko Shimada too. The whole village will be burned if you don't learn Japanese scene with her showed a side of feudal Japan that I'm not seeing in this version.
Agree on Marco Polo comments above It was better than this version of Shogun. Gonna keep watching, but It's not riveting.
Agree on Marco Polo comments above It was better than this version of Shogun. Gonna keep watching, but It's not riveting.
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Spin
Footballguy
I've read the book at least three times, and I'm really enjoying the show so far. I was however very disappointed in a change they made to a scene I was looking forward to in Episode 2. I get it, TV adaptations have to tweak the script, shuffle around characters, play with the sequence of events, and so on. That's all part of the game. But what they shouldn't do is mess with the stuff that's at the very heart of the book, the stuff that really matters to the story.
In the book, there's this powerful moment when Toranaga meets Blackthorne. Toranaga says, “There are no ‘mitigating circumstances’ when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord.” And then Blackthorne fires back with, “Unless you win.” That exchange is gold. It shows why Blackthorne and Toranaga click. It's about how Toranaga, even though he's from this super strict Japanese society, is always ready to throw the rulebook out the window when necessary. He gets that history is penned by those who come out on top, and that power is what makes the rules.
But in the show? They water it down to Toranaga saying, "You have too many enemies. You cannot win," and Blackthorne replying, "unless I win." I mean, come on! Why? Why strip away the brilliance of their original exchange?
I'm just baffled and a bit annoyed, to be honest. Lol, I just don't see the point of making that change.
In the book, there's this powerful moment when Toranaga meets Blackthorne. Toranaga says, “There are no ‘mitigating circumstances’ when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord.” And then Blackthorne fires back with, “Unless you win.” That exchange is gold. It shows why Blackthorne and Toranaga click. It's about how Toranaga, even though he's from this super strict Japanese society, is always ready to throw the rulebook out the window when necessary. He gets that history is penned by those who come out on top, and that power is what makes the rules.
But in the show? They water it down to Toranaga saying, "You have too many enemies. You cannot win," and Blackthorne replying, "unless I win." I mean, come on! Why? Why strip away the brilliance of their original exchange?
I'm just baffled and a bit annoyed, to be honest. Lol, I just don't see the point of making that change.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Netflix's Marco Polo series was great - except for the Marco Polo character.
IrishTwinkie
Footballguy
Spin
Footballguy
The show airs live on Tuesday night on cable and I believe Hulu, but if you're streaming via the FX or ABC app, it's available on Wednesday. There are currently 4 episodes out.
Spin
Footballguy
I really enjoyed episode 4. The actress playing Fuji is absolutely perfect, and she killed that episode. Her facial expressions while watching Blackthorne eat that soup were hilarious. And the scene with her pointing the gun at Omi was ::chef's kiss:: . I'm definitely using "Milk-dribbling ****-smear" the next time I'm talking trash while throwing darts. Watching Mariko spin what Blackthorne says is also great. The ending was great, shockingly extremely violent, which makes sense considering the Director of this episode also worked on "The Boys".
I think they're handling the Blackthrone/Mariko relationship really well. They've done a good job throughout the first 4 episodes showing the growing respect between the two. And I think the moment before they're ambushed in the woods is a great example of that just watching them just walk together and talk about nonsense while smiling and learning more. They do seem to be giving more to Mariko, in the sense that she seems to solve everything. (It's been a while since I've read the books, but I remember Toranaga being the one to meet with Fuji, and it was Blackthorne himself who came up with the idea to give the guns to Fuji)
I'm more convinced than ever that Buntaro is not dead. There are some great scenes between him and Blackthorne that would be a shame to leave out, especially the "arrows in the post" scene.
I think they're handling the Blackthrone/Mariko relationship really well. They've done a good job throughout the first 4 episodes showing the growing respect between the two. And I think the moment before they're ambushed in the woods is a great example of that just watching them just walk together and talk about nonsense while smiling and learning more. They do seem to be giving more to Mariko, in the sense that she seems to solve everything. (It's been a while since I've read the books, but I remember Toranaga being the one to meet with Fuji, and it was Blackthorne himself who came up with the idea to give the guns to Fuji)
I'm more convinced than ever that Buntaro is not dead. There are some great scenes between him and Blackthorne that would be a shame to leave out, especially the "arrows in the post" scene.
SWC
Bromigo
marco polo was amazing but i remember when they cancelled it i was looking all around for season three and couldnt find it anywhere take that to the bank brohans
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Thanks. But I wish I didn't know this to be honest just due to my sleep needs on weeknights these days in my old age.
Spin
Footballguy
What's the consensus on this thread with respect to the book? I really don't want to start another "Book Only" type thread, but if individuals want to keep this purely to the show and what's been shown so far, I'm okay with that and will refrain from mentioning book type plots (which may or may not make their way into the show).
Moonlight
Footballguy
Agree. Shogun is one of the very few books I have read twice. This series version has unnecessarily watered down or altered some of the essence that made the book great. The cannon scene wasn’t in the book. Putting it in kept the bloodshed count high but also resulted in chopping the length of other character exchanges that provided insights into the culture and differences between the two worlds.
This version has great production values but the 1980 series did more with less. Also the previous Mariko was a favorite.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
One vote in favor of posting whatever you want to post in here. I’ve not read the book and probably never will but remember my dad loved it and remember gathering around our television to watch the Richard Chamberlin show back in the day. It was a big event for us similar to Roots.
SWC
Bromigo
i feel for you guys who loved this book and dont like the deviations but you have to realize that for most of us we dont know the book inside and out and just like this show for what it is a great show with a great plotline and amazing cinematography take that to the bank bromigos
Spin
Footballguy
They did focus a lot on the cannon in this episode, whereas in the book it was guns. I found it interesting that they changed it from guns to cannons, opting to go with "we know about guns" route. In the books, the guns were made a much bigger deal. The Taiko had banned all peasants from owning guns quite a bit before the story began, so most of the Samurai hadn't really seen them used in a regulated manner, and Toranaga knew the muskets could essentially only be used once. Because once they opened that can of worms, everyone would abandon their swords and move to gun regiments.
In the books, Jozen witnesses a "mock battle" between ~500 musketeers and 2000 samurai with swords where the musketeers easily defeat the samurai, and then he immediately demands all muskets be returned to Ishido. Naga then slaughters Jozen and his men and it is quite a bit _more_ brutal than in the show.
Nebara Jozen had shown it. He had died badly, weeping with fear, begging for mercy, the killing slow and cruel. He had been allowed to run, then bayoneted carefully amidst laughter, then forced to run again, and hamstrung. Then he had been allowed to crawl away, then gutted slowly while he screamed, his blood dribbling with the phlegm, then left to die. ... The heads were collected. Later Jozen shrieked into life again. His frantic hands tried helplessly to remake his belly. They left him to the dogs that had come up from the village.
The end result is ultimately the same, Omi gets Naga to do what he wants (killing Jozen and his men), and it's done in a pretty brutal manner. I'm going to only guess that the change from focus on muskets to cannons is a result of the practicality of filming a 2500+ person scene for a mock battle, which exists to show just how much of an advantage guns are over swords. Moving to the canons here allows for the brutality of the killing of Jozen and his men to remain, while still displaying the raw power and advantage that this new power that Toranaga now holds.
Agree, for sure. There are certain scenes I was hoping for and couldn't wait to see, that were absent, and I get it, it's a 1200-page book. There was a very crucial scene between Blackthrone, Omi, and Yabu that was omitted which I'm _hoping_ they pushed it to episode 5 which was absolutely huge for Blackthorne's character of accepting his fate and essentially being truly reborn as Anjin-san. It was also big for the way in which the others began to view him, especially Mariko.
Spin
Footballguy
I will preface this with the thought that I find the show amazing. I rarely find adaptions as enjoyable as the source material with exceptions for like, the early seasons of GoT or the Expanse, come to mind. I can appreciate that it is much harder to translate from book to show, due to many reasons such as a lack of inner monologue, etc. However, some showrunners seem to truly understand the source material and are able to translate it without losing a lot of the importance of the character exchanges or development that are key to the story. For instance, I feel like a lot of Blackthorne's character arc (from what has been shown in the first 4 episodes) has been severely hampered.
One of the early struggles for Blackthorne comes down to Yabu giving him an ultimatum: he has 6 months to accomplish training the musket regiment as well as become fluent in Japanese (in the book Blackthorne is already fluent in English, Portuguese, Dutch, and I believe some Latin?) or Yabu is going to kill everyone in the entire fishing village and burn it down. We get to learn about some of Blackthorne's past under Drake, and the brutality for which Drake cut his path to glory. You can tell that Blackthorne is deep down, a decent man who values life. Having the weight of his success being the deciding factor of whether or not a bunch of innocent people live or die, is a burden that is too much, and drives Blackthorne to attempt Seppuku. This entire exchange completely changes the way that Yabu, Omi, Mariko and even Blackthorne himself. This is the pivotal moment in the book where he has a distinct change of personality, begins to embrace the Japanese culture, accepts his fate, and becomes a hybrid of both worlds.
Now, we're only 4 episodes in, and maybe they'll find ways to sneak parts of it in, it's just that this version of Blackthorne just doesn't resonate the same as the "Bookthorne", and maybe that ends up being ok.
bagger
Footballguy
Or is he….
kupcho1
Footballguy
Ah, you've nailed it. "Suave" suits Chamberlain precisely and is why I never thought he was good in the role.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I watched the first ep last night and it took nearly 2 hours to get through it with the buffering and Hulu crashes. What a craptastic app. Show was good but I was pissed.
El Floppo
Footballguy
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Never read the book. Hell. Haven't read an actual book in a decade. Ha ha
Finished episode 4. I'm definitely in. Gets even better once u start to recognize and understand who everyone is. Solid start to a series.
Finished episode 4. I'm definitely in. Gets even better once u start to recognize and understand who everyone is. Solid start to a series.
belljr
Footballguy
I have no issue with book chat my whole issues with the GoT book nerds in the TV thread was they would spoil stuff we had no clue about and it was frustrating
Spin
Footballguy
It was Mariko (the interpreter), she's trying to keep it hidden.
FarFromHome
Footballguy
Was the interpreter. I literally had to rewind and stare at her face. They kept it dark.
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