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Small Business Support Group (2 Viewers)

PPP cash hit the bank this morning
Mine just hit within the last hour...ALLELUJAH!

Thanks to everyone in this topic for your helpful advice, especially @Chemical X @ericttspikes @E-Z Glider @Grahamburn all of whom have helped me navigate this process with the info they provided. If it weren't for this thread I wouldn't gotten this done. My now former banker, US Bank, failed me miserably and I wouldn't have known where to turn without the extremely useful links and info found here. The whole ordeal took 37 days to reach the finish line, with numerous setbacks, 3 different banks, and lots of stress but I'm here nonetheless. The relief in knowing I won't be letting down the people who depend on me is enormous. Be proud of these people @Joe Bryant , I have no doubt that you are.

 
Mine just hit within the last hour...ALLELUJAH!

Thanks to everyone in this topic for your helpful advice, especially @Chemical X @ericttspikes @E-Z Glider @Grahamburn all of whom have helped me navigate this process with the info they provided. If it weren't for this thread I wouldn't gotten this done. My now former banker, US Bank, failed me miserably and I wouldn't have known where to turn without the extremely useful links and info found here. The whole ordeal took 37 days to reach the finish line, with numerous setbacks, 3 different banks, and lots of stress but I'm here nonetheless. The relief in knowing I won't be letting down the people who depend on me is enormous. Be proud of these people @Joe Bryant , I have no doubt that you are.
which bank?

 
I initialed the PPP docs yesterday and money will supposedly hit my account in a few days. I'm self-employed and qualified for the PUA as well but now that the PPP came through, what happens? The SBA has issued no guidance about whether or not self-employed are eligible for both a PPP loan and PUA. All the website says is participation in the PPP program may affect your ability to receive unemployment benefits. Nothing on the state unemployment website mentions the PPP. What do I do? Am I correct to assume that if collecting PUA unemployment benefits that the payroll portion of the PPP loan will not be forgiven? So in essence the PPP loan will end up being a 2 year loan at 1%?

 
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Here's my question: If I'm getting self-employed PUA benefits and the PPP funds come through, if i then stop collecting PUA benefits for those 2 months that the PPP is supposed to cover and things aren't back to normal in 2 months, am i allowed to reopen my PUA claim? And if I do that will the payroll portion of the PPP loan be forgiven? Isn't the deal with the PPP that the payroll portion is forgiven as long as you retain your workers? If I go back to collecting PUA doesn't that mean I have not retained my workers (meaning myself)? Should I just continue to collect PUA and then pay back the PPP? Or reject the PPP money all together? No clue what to do.

 
Mine just hit within the last hour...ALLELUJAH!

Thanks to everyone in this topic for your helpful advice, especially @Chemical X @ericttspikes @E-Z Glider @Grahamburn all of whom have helped me navigate this process with the info they provided. If it weren't for this thread I wouldn't gotten this done. My now former banker, US Bank, failed me miserably and I wouldn't have known where to turn without the extremely useful links and info found here. The whole ordeal took 37 days to reach the finish line, with numerous setbacks, 3 different banks, and lots of stress but I'm here nonetheless. The relief in knowing I won't be letting down the people who depend on me is enormous. Be proud of these people @Joe Bryant , I have no doubt that you are.
:goodposting:  These are the types of threads that make the FFA awesome.

 
Here's my question: If I'm getting self-employed PUA benefits and the PPP funds come through, if i then stop collecting PUA benefits for those 2 months that the PPP is supposed to cover and things aren't back to normal in 2 months, am i allowed to reopen my PUA claim? And if I do that will the payroll portion of the PPP loan be forgiven? Isn't the deal with the PPP that the payroll portion is forgiven as long as you retain your workers? If I go back to collecting PUA doesn't that mean I have not retained my workers (meaning myself)? Should I just continue to collect PUA and then pay back the PPP? Or reject the PPP money all together? No clue what to do.
so, you are self employed.....you have no employees.  

read this, but PUA is UI and set by your state i think?  you may not be able to file for UI 2x in a short period of time.  if you have a loan coming, it might benefit you to hold off filing for UI until those funds run out.  remember, your loan was based on your monthly average payroll, actually your profit / 12.  so the loan should cover you for 10 weeks or so.  8 weeks is automatically forgiven.  maybe hold off filing UI for 2-3 months?

https://bench.co/blog/operations/ppp-forgiveness-contractors-sole-props/

 
so, you are self employed.....you have no employees.  

read this, but PUA is UI and set by your state i think?  you may not be able to file for UI 2x in a short period of time.  if you have a loan coming, it might benefit you to hold off filing for UI until those funds run out.  remember, your loan was based on your monthly average payroll, actually your profit / 12.  so the loan should cover you for 10 weeks or so.  8 weeks is automatically forgiven.  maybe hold off filing UI for 2-3 months?

https://bench.co/blog/operations/ppp-forgiveness-contractors-sole-props/
I understand that part but I've already filed and gotten a few weeks of the PUA. I applied for the PPP at 3 different banks many weeks ago and there was no guarantee that I'd get the loan so like most other self-employed people I applied for the PUA. Now that the PPP has come through I'm not sure what the best thing to do is because the SBA hasn't issued any guidance. If I get the PPP money and stop getting PUA can I go back to PUA after the 8 weeks of PPP and still get the loan forgiven? My friend's accountant saying take both and likely scenario is the PPP isn't forgiven but at least I'd have some piece of mind knowing I can continue to collect PUA should this thing not turn around quickly. So worst case would be collect PUA and also get a low interest loan at the same time that i can pay back over the next 2 years.

 
This is what's currently being lobbied for....

•    Reconsider the SBA’s non-statutory requirement that 75 percent of PPP loan proceeds must be spent on retaining payroll. 
•    Provide a straightforward, easy-to-apply approach to loan forgiveness, such as developing a PPP loan-forgiveness calculator. 
•    Establish a presumption of compliance for all loans with an original balance of $1 million or less based on the borrower’s certification. 
The $1m threshold is higher than I was expecting/hearing. Would be nice though.

 
If anyone applied for the SBA EIDL loan, it looks like that process is moving again. I applied late March and other than receiving the grant mid April, I hadn't heard anything. I kind of thought it was a lost cause, however I finally received a portal invite yesterday which allowed me to accept my loan amount. The next step is receiving signing docs and funding. I'm not sure how long that will take or if funding will happen, but it was a nice surprise to finally see movement. I have a feeling processing PPP took priority over EIDL for several weeks. 

 
Got an email from my bank this morning stating my loan application has been processed and approved by the SBA.  Supposedly in the next few days I'm to get a Docusign closing package then I would be added to the disbursement list.  Hopefully I'm past the bottleneck part.
PPP cash hit the bank this morning
This ended up being our timeline too. PPP cash hit the bank today (a few days after doc signing). 
 

Huge relief and props to everyone here for all of the helpful info. We wouldn’t have been able to pull this off without the help from you here. 

 
This ended up being our timeline too. PPP cash hit the bank today (a few days after doc signing). 
 

Huge relief and props to everyone here for all of the helpful info. We wouldn’t have been able to pull this off without the help from you here. 
Does anyone have specific loan foregiveness guidelines from sba since I hear they are evolving? 

 
stlrams said:
Does anyone have specific loan foregiveness guidelines from sba since I hear they are evolving? 
I can share what our bank provided, but the “utilities” part seems to be open for interpretation from we’ve been able to find so far. 

 
stlrams said:
Does anyone have specific loan foregiveness guidelines from sba since I hear they are evolving? 
I have heard salary, benefits like 401K, rents, utilities.  But ours should be soaked up by two payrolls worth of salary and 401K match so I haven't studied the other.  Our bank has yet to tell me what documents they need from us to qualify for forgiveness.

 
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stlrams said:
Does anyone have specific loan foregiveness guidelines from sba since I hear they are evolving? 
From page 4 of this doc: https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/Interim-Final-Rule-Additional-Eligibility-Criteria-and-Requirements-for-Certain-Pledges-of-Loans.pdf

There's more to it, but this is the gist.

f. What amounts shall be eligible for forgiveness?

The amount of loan forgiveness can be up to the full principal amount of the loan plus accrued interest. The actual amount of loan forgiveness will depend, in part, on the total amount spent over the covered period on:

i. Payroll costs including salary, wages, and tips, up to $100,000 of annualized pay per employee (for eight weeks, a maximum of $15,385 per individual), as well as covered benefits for employees (but not owners), including health care expenses, retirement contributions, and state taxes imposed on employee payroll paid by the employer (such as unemployment insurance premiums);

ii. owner compensation replacement, calculated based on 2019 net profit as described in Paragraph 1.b. above, with forgiveness of such amounts limited to eight weeks’ worth (8/52) of 2019 net profit, but excluding any qualified sick leave equivalent amount for which a credit is claimed under section 7002 of the Families First Coronavirus Response Act (FFCRA) (Pub. L. 116–127) or qualified family leave equivalent amount for which a credit is claimed under section 7004 of FFCRA;

iii. payments of interest on mortgage obligations on real or personal property incurred before February 15, 2020, to the extent they are deductible on Form 1040 Schedule C (business mortgage payments);

iv. rent payments on lease agreements in force before February 15, 2020, to the extent they are deductible on Form 1040 Schedule C (business rent payments); and

v. utility payments under service agreements dated before February 15, 2020 to the extent they are deductible on Form 1040 Schedule C (business utility payments). 

 
The company my wife works for cut about 1/3 of the workforce about 3 months ago. Those remaining (including her) got a 30% paycut. About a month ago, they received their small business support from the government, in whatever form they applied for (I'm not fully clear). 

They are using $0 of it towards payroll. Hiring back 0 workers and continuing with the 30% pay cut for everyone.

Can someone help me make sense of this using limited information? They have a chance to have payroll fully paid for and forgiven for months, and to hire back the fired workers, all paid by the government. Instead, it seems they are using their loan for other purposes (I haven't been on the calls but I don't think they've told the employees many of the details). What could they be doing/thinking?

Initial thought is that they're so close to closing and are deep in debt and with business down across the board (they are a print marketing company), they are using the loan to pay off other things, thinking that rather than having a fully staffed workforce sitting around without much work to do, they'll instead use the money to dig them out of other holes so they can stay afloat? It seems crazy to me that they would pass up all that essentially free $ to instead take it as a loan to be used for other purposes (and hence not forgiven).

Any other thoughts on why they would refuse the free $ they could use to fully pay for their workforce?

 
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The company my wife works for cut about 1/3 of the workforce about 3 months ago. Those remaining (including her) got a 30% paycut. About a month ago, they received their small business support from the government, in whatever form they applied for (I'm not fully clear). 

They are using $0 of it towards payroll. Hiring back 0 workers and continuing with the 30% pay cut for everyone.

Can someone help me make sense of this using limited information? They have a chance to have payroll fully paid for and forgiven for months, and to hire back the fired workers, all paid by the government. Instead, it seems they are using their loan for other purposes (I haven't been on the calls but I don't think they've told the employees many of the details). What could they be doing/thinking?

Initial thought is that they're so close to closing and are deep in debt and with business down across the board (they are a print marketing company), they are using the loan to pay off other things, thinking that rather than having a fully staffed workforce sitting around without much work to do, they'll instead use the money to dig them out of other holes so they can stay afloat? It seems crazy to me that they would pass up all that essentially free $ to instead take it as a loan to be used for other purposes (and hence not forgiven).

Any other thoughts on why they would refuse the free $ they could use to fully pay for their workforce?
That's so hard to answer without any real info.

The PPP is a 1% loan for 2years, but businesses can apply for forgiveness later.  So it's technically not free money from the onset.  They did need to attest to using the money for payroll, but I don't know what/how that's going to be enforced if they turned around and used the money to pay off debt.  

If they got the EIDL, then all bets are off on what they use the money for IIRC.

 
That's so hard to answer without any real info.

The PPP is a 1% loan for 2years, but businesses can apply for forgiveness later.  So it's technically not free money from the onset.  They did need to attest to using the money for payroll, but I don't know what/how that's going to be enforced if they turned around and used the money to pay off debt.  

If they got the EIDL, then all bets are off on what they use the money for IIRC.
Yeah, though I think it's safe to assume that they could have used that money to not only cover their current payroll for months, but also re-hire everyone they laid off and increase everyone's pay to 100%...all of which would have been fully paid for. Now that they've chosen not to do that, they turned hundreds of thousands in free $ into a 1% loan. So that makes me think they REALLY needed that money for some reason.

Can't think of any way in which this isn't a HUGE red flag that her company is heading under. If they preferred a loan over free $, they must be really in debt and haven't been able to negotiate with their creditors.

Start hiding PTO?

 
Yeah, though I think it's safe to assume that they could have used that money to not only cover their current payroll for months, but also re-hire everyone they laid off and increase everyone's pay to 100%...all of which would have been fully paid for. Now that they've chosen not to do that, they turned hundreds of thousands in free $ into a 1% loan. So that makes me think they REALLY needed that money for some reason.

Can't think of any way in which this isn't a HUGE red flag that her company is heading under. If they preferred a loan over free $, they must be really in debt and haven't been able to negotiate with their creditors.

Start hiding PTO?
They've decided to use it as a short term loan or hoping they can pocket it and then bury their heads in the sand.  I wouldn't be surprised if ownership is planning on filing for bankruptcy and then closing the doors.  I've heard of similar situations where the money hits the business account and then is immediately being moved elsewhere so the bank can't deduct anything electronically after the fact.  

 
There's definitely some shady stuff going on if they aren't immediately bringing their people back and paying them. 
I would have to be under serious pressure to consider taking, say, a $500,000 1% loan rather than taking $500,000 in free payroll money that I don't need to pay back.

 
Yeah, though I think it's safe to assume that they could have used that money to not only cover their current payroll for months, but also re-hire everyone they laid off and increase everyone's pay to 100%...all of which would have been fully paid for. Now that they've chosen not to do that, they turned hundreds of thousands in free $ into a 1% loan. So that makes me think they REALLY needed that money for some reason.

Can't think of any way in which this isn't a HUGE red flag that her company is heading under. If they preferred a loan over free $, they must be really in debt and haven't been able to negotiate with their creditors.

Start hiding PTO?
You're positive they took the PPP and not some other assistance like the EIDL?  I am not defending them, but it seems like you're making a lot of assumptions and falling down unnecessary rabbit holes.  The only "free money" is the PPP, but even then it's not free until they apply for forgiveness.  The forgiveness for the PPP applies to the money spent on payroll + mortgage + utilities for the next 8 weeks from the date the funds are deposited.  It'd help them for 2 months, max (granted that's a huge deal for most employees).

If they took the EIDL, it could've been advantageous to do it because of the friendly terms.  They may have decided to use that money to keep the lights on.  :shrug:  

 
They've decided to use it as a short term loan or hoping they can pocket it and then bury their heads in the sand.  I wouldn't be surprised if ownership is planning on filing for bankruptcy and then closing the doors.  I've heard of similar situations where the money hits the business account and then is immediately being moved elsewhere so the bank can't deduct anything electronically after the fact.  
there is a giant "summer camp" company out here in CA, that did just that.  with millions.

 
You're positive they took the PPP and not some other assistance like the EIDL?  I am not defending them, but it seems like you're making a lot of assumptions and falling down unnecessary rabbit holes.  The only "free money" is the PPP, but even then it's not free until they apply for forgiveness.  The forgiveness for the PPP applies to the money spent on payroll + mortgage + utilities for the next 8 weeks from the date the funds are deposited.  It'd help them for 2 months, max (granted that's a huge deal for most employees).

If they took the EIDL, it could've been advantageous to do it because of the friendly terms.  They may have decided to use that money to keep the lights on.  :shrug:  
Admittedly, I don't have many details (they aren't sharing much), but what I know is that they turned down the option to take the forgivable money that would cover 100% of payroll (8 weeks) like you mentioned. Instead of the forgiveable/free $ for payroll, they took the option to receive a loan that is not forgiveable. 

I mean if someone offered to give you a free ("forgiveable") $500,000 house, or you could otherwise choose a $500,000 1% loan (that you have to pay back) that you could use for any other purposes, you'd need to be VERY hard up for cash to take the latter, no?

 
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Admittedly, I don't have many details (they aren't sharing much), but what I know is that they turned down the option to take the forgivable money that would cover 100% of payroll (8 weeks) like you mentioned. Instead of the forgiveable/free $ for payroll, they took the option to receive a loan that is not forgiveable. 

I mean if someone offered to give you a free ("forgiveable") $500,000 house, or you could otherwise choose a $500,000 1% loan (that you have to pay back) that you could use for any other purposes, you'd need to be VERY hard up for cash to take the latter, no?
The PPP is very specific in what aspects of it are forgivable.    If they took a straight loan then they have no intention of bringing employees back or increasing rates of pay back to pre-covid levels. 

 
The PPP is very specific in what aspects of it are forgivable.    If they took a straight loan then they have no intention of bringing employees back or increasing rates of pay back to pre-covid levels. 
Yes, I understand. That's why I'm saying that by choosing not to use the money for "free" payroll, they gave up a massive , massive benefit. And I can't imagine why they would do that unless they're in dire straits. 

 
It's only a massive benefit if you expect business to get back fairly close to pre-covid levels.  Sounds like they were already in trouble and used the pandemic to lay their people off and get out of debt. 

 
Or you're jumping to some extremely massive conclusions about something you clearly have very few, if any even, details about.

 
Or you're jumping to some extremely massive conclusions about something you clearly have very few, if any even, details about.
Sometimes we must draw conclusions on which we base our actions when the details are few and far between. 

"Hundreds of thousands in free money? Nah, we would rather take a loan that we need to pay back in full" ...yeah, nothing wrong here at all.

 
Yes, I understand. That's why I'm saying that by choosing not to use the money for "free" payroll, they gave up a massive , massive benefit. And I can't imagine why they would do that unless they're in dire straits. 
Not all industries are affected equally. If a business had to essentially shut down and they arent able to truly open again until there is a vaccine (there are a lot of these), the PPP may have been a temporary band-aid that wasn't really worth it. What good is 8 weeks of payroll if business sucked for the month before that and doesnt look like it will be any better for the rest of the year? I seriously doubt there are any business owners out there that are getting filthy rich off of this right now while purposely gouging their employees.

 
It's only a massive benefit if you expect business to get back fairly close to pre-covid levels.  Sounds like they were already in trouble and used the pandemic to lay their people off and get out of debt. 
Good point. But since they're still on the hook for payroll (albeit half the size), and business is still slow, I assume they'll be back in the same level of debt shortly. Seems crazy not to want to shrug off the payroll burden and have someone else pay your employees for a couple months while you throw any and all profits at the debt.

Can't help but wonder if something very shady is going on behind the scenes. Would really help to quell speculation if they shared some details with employees rather than just saying "yeah, you know that PPP that most companies are using to pay employees with free money? Yeah, we decided we didn't want that, so just continue working at a 30% discount!"

 
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Good point. But since they're still on the hook for payroll (albeit half the size), and business is still slow, I assume they'll be back in the same level of debt shortly. Seems crazy not to want to shrug off the payroll burden and have someone else pay your employees for a couple months while you throw any and all profits at the debt.

Can't help but wonder if something very shady is going on behind the scenes.
The PPP is based on past payrolls.  The business is required to keep their employees and pay them at their normal rates.  If your wife's business took the PPP and didn't bring their people back or restore their pay they'd owe all of that money back.  They realize they're already in a dying industry and business is slow.  The PPP would only be a band-aid for them. 

 
I'm worried about the same thing.  I furloughed my employees on 3/20.  We received PPP funds on 4/23.  Returned to work at almost 100% employment on 5/1.  A few people are taking FMLA through the FFCRA and I had one resign.  As of today we're doing about 25% of our normal business.  Once the funds run out I may be laying people off or reducing pay across the board if we don't bounce back quickly.

 
Good point. But since they're still on the hook for payroll (albeit half the size), and business is still slow, I assume they'll be back in the same level of debt shortly. Seems crazy not to want to shrug off the payroll burden and have someone else pay your employees for a couple months while you throw any and all profits at the debt.

Can't help but wonder if something very shady is going on behind the scenes. Would really help to quell speculation if they shared some details with employees rather than just saying "yeah, you know that PPP that most companies are using to pay employees with free money? Yeah, we decided we didn't want that, so just continue working at a 30% discount!"
NO NO NO.  You literally have no insight other than "they took out some government loan" and "aren't paying their employees full wages."  You don't even know if it's the PPP loan for crying out loud.  It's all baseless speculation by you about the company doing something "shady."    The received a loan and are "using $0 of it for payroll" is simply not true if your wife and others are getting paid.    That's payroll paid, and amounts which are forgiven, if paid to employees within this 8 week period.   Sure, there may be a reduction in the amount forgiven if they've reduced FTE counts from the loan calculation period but there's plenty of reasons to make these decisions that aren't fraudulent or even borderline shady. 

Also, maybe their payroll base during the loan calculation period was 30%, 50%, or 80% of what it is now and it isn't possible to pay all employees right now in full and have that entire amount forgiven?  Maybe they've laid off some and are selectively choosing which high value employees to pay at 100%, while paying others a reduced 70% wage because of that?  Maybe they're projecting to have a reduced amount forgiven due to any number of financial or tax reasons and give the balance back?  Maybe they're waiting for final and formal guidance to be released by the SBA (supposedly today?) relating to some of the uncertainties in order to make a determination on how to best maximize the loan amount over these last 1-7 weeks?    There's a ton of reasons why they may be dealing with this how they are. 

So please just stop already.   Sure, there are likely to be some companies that take this money, don't pay employees, pocket the cash, and then try to shut down operations and file for bankruptcy (good luck to them on avoiding IRS and other implications).  But for everyone one of those, there are 1,000 others trying to navigate a #### storm that nobody imagined possible, trying to take care of 10s or 1000s of employees, and making sure that their company can navigate a crisis to stay afloat and not send those 10s or 1000s to the unemployment line. 

 
The PPP is based on past payrolls.  The business is required to keep their employees and pay them at their normal rates.  If your wife's business took the PPP and didn't bring their people back or restore their pay they'd owe all of that money back.  They realize they're already in a dying industry and business is slow.  The PPP would only be a band-aid for them. 
This isn't true.  Just to be clear. 

 
Admittedly, I don't have many details (they aren't sharing much), but what I know is that they turned down the option to take the forgivable money that would cover 100% of payroll (8 weeks) like you mentioned. Instead of the forgiveable/free $ for payroll, they took the option to receive a loan that is not forgiveable. 

I mean if someone offered to give you a free ("forgiveable") $500,000 house, or you could otherwise choose a $500,000 1% loan (that you have to pay back) that you could use for any other purposes, you'd need to be VERY hard up for cash to take the latter, no?
there is no option.....

 
Holy S!!  People couldn’t fill out PPP Apps correctly, yes....i’m still calling them to fix, how are they gonna fill this out correctly?  S Storm is a coming.....also, don’t guess about what a company is doing....many companies pay employees with a 1099 as a contractor and may not have as high a payroll as one may think.  not you, just posters in general.

 
After a 6 week shut down, I reopened the store two weeks ago ...despite our governor extending the "shelter at home" order another 2 weeks.

I thought things would be slow with folks hiding from the virus. Boy was I wrong.

We hit the ground running and it's been pretty steady since. 

I installed Plexiglas at the 3 counter stations. Masks are required by customers and we wear ours when a customer is in the store.

95% of customers are cooperating. Of the couple customers that didn't have a mask, older gents that I would think would be most at risk. Weird.

Wiping down door handles and counter tops every few hours. The new normal I suppose. For the next several months anyway.

Seems folks have money to spend and are willing to do so. We just need to get out from under the rock the government has us hiding under. 

 
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I'm worried about the same thing.  I furloughed my employees on 3/20.  We received PPP funds on 4/23.  Returned to work at almost 100% employment on 5/1.  A few people are taking FMLA through the FFCRA and I had one resign.  As of today we're doing about 25% of our normal business.  Once the funds run out I may be laying people off or reducing pay across the board if we don't bounce back quickly.
Same here. There is going to be a nice spike in the unemployment numbers starting July 1. 

 
Anyone know the answer to this question: Can self-employed people who received a PPP loan collect UI/PUA benefits as long as they don't apply for PPP loan forgiveness? Can I use the (maximum) 25% allocated for rent/utilities and not apply for forgiveness for the payroll portion? I called the SBA this morning for guidance and they told me to contact my lender who couldn't give me an answer. Honestly thinking about just returning my PPP loan. Not sure what to do.

 

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