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So how can we actually defeat Trump in 2020? (2 Viewers)

da_budman said:
Hillary Clinton had high unfavorables well before Trump showed up.  Her actions  plus non stop Republican led investigations (most for nothing but political gain)  saw to that.  No chance...zero...that whowever the dems end up with as a candidate is as despised as Hillary was.  Getting down and dirty is the opposite of what the dems need to do.  Theres an old country saying that goes  never  wallow in the mud with a pig.....  you get dirty and the pig loves it.  It amazed me how much the republicans did that in the primaries last time around...and it played right into his hands.  
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There's room for both; particuarly if different messengers say different messages.  Nothing wrong with the Democratic POTUS candidates taking a higher road, Democratic Congressmen in safe districts mixing it up with him a bit and the Democratic media throwing haymakers below the belt.    

 
Has anyone passively suggested what the second amendment folks think about defeating Trump in 2020? 

"...nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is. I don't know."

Now, that's a bit out of context since he was talking about Clinton picking SC judges but still, one of his greatest hits.

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
If it's paid for by taxes, it's free the same way that free college would be free or that free anything provided by the government is free.
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Sure, but the question they raised their hands to, wasn't even about that.  It just said provide healthcare.  It never discussed the costs at all and the candidates have discussed it now as well. To continue to claim they are for free healthcare for illegals is not an honest statement at this point 

 
Everyone agrees the economy is due for an adjustment.  What happens if Trump loses and the economy crashes right after the election?  They will be screwed before they even start.  The market went up when he won, so I bet all his rich friends will tank it on purpose 

 
It’s not all on the Democrats. Concerned Republicans can push within the party to support a viable primary challenger. 

 
Punxsutawney Phil said:
Everyone agrees the economy is due for an adjustment.  What happens if Trump loses and the economy crashes right after the election?  They will be screwed before they even start.  The market went up when he won, so I bet all his rich friends will tank it on purpose 
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I’m not going to support extortion if that’s what you claim is going on.

 
From Scientific American

How to Convince Someone When Facts Fail: Why worldview threats undermine evidence

By Michael Shermer on January 1, 2017

Credit: Izhar Cohen

Have you ever noticed that when you present people with facts that are contrary to their deepest held beliefs they always change their minds? Me neither. In fact, people seem to double down on their beliefs in the teeth of overwhelming evidence against them. The reason is related to the worldview perceived to be under threat by the conflicting data.

Creationists, for example, dispute the evidence for evolution in fossils and DNA because they are concerned about secular forces encroaching on religious faith. Antivaxxers distrust big pharma and think that money corrupts medicine, which leads them to believe that vaccines cause autism despite the inconvenient truth that the one and only study claiming such a link was retracted and its lead author accused of fraud. The 9/11 truthers focus on minutiae like the melting point of steel in the World Trade Center buildings that caused their collapse because they think the government lies and conducts “false flag” operations to create a New World Order. Climate deniers study tree rings, ice cores and the ppm of greenhouse gases because they are passionate about freedom, especially that of markets and industries to operate unencumbered by restrictive government regulations. Obama birthers desperately dissected the president's long-form birth certificate in search of fraud because they believe that the nation's first African-American president is a socialist bent on destroying the country.

In these examples, proponents' deepest held worldviews were perceived to be threatened by skeptics, making facts the enemy to be slayed. This power of belief over evidence is the result of two factors: cognitive dissonance and the backfire effect. In the classic 1956 book When Prophecy Fails, psychologist Leon Festinger and his co-authors described what happened to a UFO cult when the mother ship failed to arrive at the appointed time. Instead of admitting error, “members of the group sought frantically to convince the world of their beliefs,” and they made “a series of desperate attempts to erase their rankling dissonance by making prediction after prediction in the hope that one would come true.” Festinger called this cognitive dissonance, or the uncomfortable tension that comes from holding two conflicting thoughts simultaneously.

In their 2007 book Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me), two social psychologists, Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson (a former student of Festinger), document thousands of experiments demonstrating how people spin-doctor facts to fit preconceived beliefs to reduce dissonance. Their metaphor of the “pyramid of choice” places two individuals side by side at the apex of the pyramid and shows how quickly they diverge and end up at the bottom opposite corners of the base as they each stake out a position to defend.

In a series of experiments by Dartmouth College professor Brendan Nyhan and University of Exeter professor Jason Reifler, the researchers identify a related factor they call the backfire effect “in which corrections actually increase misperceptions among the group in question.” Why? “Because it threatens their worldview or self-concept.” For example, subjects were given fake newspaper articles that confirmed widespread misconceptions, such as that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. When subjects were then given a corrective article that WMD were never found, liberals who opposed the war accepted the new article and rejected the old, whereas conservatives who supported the war did the opposite ... and more: they reported being even more convinced there were WMD after the correction, arguing that this only proved that Saddam Hussein hid or destroyed them. In fact, Nyhan and Reifler note, among many conservatives “the belief that Iraq possessed WMD immediately before the U.S. invasion persisted long after the Bush administration itself concluded otherwise.”

If corrective facts only make matters worse, what can we do to convince people of the error of their beliefs? From my experience,

1 keep emotions out of the exchange,

2 discuss, don't attack (no ad hominem and no ad Hitlerum),

3 listen carefully and try to articulate the other position accurately,

4 show respect,

5 acknowledge that you understand why someone might hold that opinion, and

6 try to show how changing facts does not necessarily mean changing worldviews.

These strategies may not always work to change people's minds, but now that the nation has just been put through a political fact-check wringer, they may help reduce unnecessary divisiveness.

Scientific American Allsides

 
Can someone please post a link describing the healthcare plans that will be free for illegal immigrants? I’m curious if it’s anything like my bc/bs plan I’m on through my wife’s work.

 
dozer said:
Can someone please post a link describing the healthcare plans that will be free for illegal immigrants? I’m curious if it’s anything like my bc/bs plan I’m on through my wife’s work.
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Gold plan. Includes full dental, braces, root canals etc. Zero deductible. Pretty sweet. 

 
Widbil83 said:
Right after I saw this I texted my Democrat buddy who couldn’t watch live and his response was “you’re so full of #### they did not.”  :lmao:  

Now imagine a middle of the road “moderate” voters reaction to this video.
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Moderates understand even what primary time is about (going left) and even they see that nobody said free healthcare for illegals.  Just as they see none of them are actually for open borders.  Middle of the road moderates know not to fall for the Trump lies and the right win propaganda about such things.

 
Widbil83 said:
Right after I saw this I texted my Democrat buddy who couldn’t watch live and his response was “you’re so full of #### they did not.”  :lmao:  

Now imagine a middle of the road “moderate” voters reaction to this video.
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Saying you’re going to give healthcare to undocumented immigrants is very unpopular with the American public. But the Democrats are not going to lose the election over this. There is not a single person out there who is going to say, “well damn I was going to vote Democrat but now that they want to give illegals healthcare I’ve gotta go with Trump instead.” It’s a laughable idea (which may be the reason for your emoticon?) 

On the other hand, supporting Medicare for All may very well cause some independents to choose Trump. 

 
timschochet said:
Saying you’re going to give healthcare to undocumented immigrants is very unpopular with the American public. But the Democrats are not going to lose the election over this. There is not a single person out there who is going to say, “well damn I was going to vote Democrat but now that they want to give illegals healthcare I’ve gotta go with Trump instead.” It’s a laughable idea (which may be the reason for your emoticon?) 

On the other hand, supporting Medicare for All may very well cause some independents to choose Trump. 
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I hope that Trump supporters are the equivalent of internet tough guy.  That if they were given the choice of giving a man/woman/child life saving medical treatment OR letting them die they would choose the former.  Of course many of these same people think if you haven't saved enough, and are an American, too bad if you die.  You should have saved your money like me.

 
To answer the question in the OP the democrat nominee should promise to repeal social security and medicare because that's just how anti-socialism they are.

 
lazyike said:
I actually disagree......if President Trump wasn't so unpresidential, dishonest and a cyber bully etc I think his approval rating would be in the 50+ percent range. I think there are going to be millions of "anyone but Trump voters" in 2020 ranging from conservatives to progressives based on his abrasive personality.
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that's a thought yes ... however, with the USA 50-50 on conservative/liberal and/or Democrat/Republican ..... the POTUS will forever be hated with rare exceptions. Bush and GW were good people, Carter was, Reagan was etc ... people hated them with high disapproval ratings. Obama was actually presidential, but his policies liberal and people hated him for it

 
sho nuff said:
Moderates understand even what primary time is about (going left) and even they see that nobody said free healthcare for illegals.  Just as they see none of them are actually for open borders.  Middle of the road moderates know not to fall for the Trump lies and the right win propaganda about such things.
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The video doesn’t lie, we all saw the hands go up.  Middle of the road voters will watch it and be stunned how far this party has sank.

 
Widbil83 said:
The video doesn’t lie, we all saw the hands go up.  Middle of the road voters will watch it and be stunned how far this party has sank.
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You keep saying that and I keep asking for where they said free...and never get an actual answer.  Yes, people can see the video and actual moderates wont react like you do.

They won’t fall for the dishonest propaganda.

 
My advice to the liberals as an independent 

1.  Stop using the word “socialism”

2.  Stop thinking of new ways to spend taxpayer money(free college)

3.  Attack healthcare by cutting costs, not by declaring “healthcare is a right “

4.  Apologize for Russian investigation and move on to something that matters 

5.  Distance the party from AOC and other wackjob taqueria waitresses with zero meaningful real life experiences 

6. Understand that most Americans are not pleased with our current unbridled immigration policy

7.  Stay away from supporting career politician candidates that are more interested in their careers than the American middle class 

of course, the Democrats are incapable of most of these....just answering the question posed in the title.   :shrug:

 
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TripItUp said:
My advice to the liberals as an independent 

5.  Distance the party from AOC and other wackjob taqueria waitresses with zero meaningful real life experiences 
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Link to AOC working as a wackjob taqueria waitress?  I thought she had worked as a bartender.

 
timschochet said:
Saying you’re going to give healthcare to undocumented immigrants is very unpopular with the American public. But the Democrats are not going to lose the election over this. There is not a single person out there who is going to say, “well damn I was going to vote Democrat but now that they want to give illegals healthcare I’ve gotta go with Trump instead.” It’s a laughable idea (which may be the reason for your emoticon?) 
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People working and paying a healthcare premium every month beg to differ

 
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timschochet said:
GROOT said:
Tim i think you are underestimating the middle class
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Underestimating then? By thinking that they are too smart to vote on what is essentially a minor issue? 
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Tim, millions of people voted for Trump because Hillary once used a private email server. Many of those same people will vote for a man who uses an unsecure phone and leaks confidential information to our geopolitical foes.

 
[scooter] said:
Tim, millions of people voted for Trump because Hillary once used a private email server. Many of those same people will vote for a man who uses an unsecure phone and leaks confidential information to our geopolitical foes.
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Right, but those folks were going to vote for him anyhow. 

 
Just an observation - the media and even some Dems and even the four Congresswomen engaging in using the language 'the squad' are just falling into Trump's branding. It's something he's been doing since the beginning, creating a false foundation and then opponents or critics engaging in that conversation in the ground assumptions that he has created. 

These are four individual women, they are not a 'squad'.

 
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And age of the candidate has nothing to do with it.

If the argument is that Trump is incompetent, then have a candidate who has accomplished things.

If the argument is Trump is unethical, then have a candidate who has led a trustworthy career.

If the argument is Trump cannot comprehend or enunciate basic issues, have someone who can do just that.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Just an observation - the media and even some Dems and even the four Congresswomen engaging in using the language 'the squad' are just falling into Trump's branding. It's something he's been doing since the beginning, creating a false foundation and then opponents or critics engaging in that conversation in the ground assumptions that he has created. 

these are four individual women, they are not a 'squad'.
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The Media is helping Trump's reelection efforts immensely. Every time they interview THE SQUAD or AOC makes some random statement and they feature it front and center on their sites, it just gives Trump ammo and drives Moderates away. Pelosi is doing all she can trying to keep these four from being the face of the party because she knows it hurts 2020, but these ladies haven't met a camera they didn't like and they are making her job impossible. 

Right now CNN has a headline with the word Squad in it. They really believe this is a winning strategy. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Just an observation - the media and even some Dems and even the four Congresswomen engaging in using the language 'the squad' are just falling into Trump's branding. It's something he's been doing since the beginning, creating a false foundation and then opponents or critics engaging in that conversation in the ground assumptions that he has created. 

These are four individual women, they are not a 'squad'.
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/17/the-squad-name-origins-aoc-ilhan-omar-ayanna-pressley-rashida-tlaib

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/17/the-squad-name-origins-aoc-ilhan-omar-ayanna-pressley-rashida-tlaib
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Four progressive democrats known as “the Squad” have revealed the source of their fierce moniker – they gave it to themselves at a photo shoot.

“Someone said, ‘Oh you should do a hashtag or something #squadgoals’ and then it morphed into whole other thing,” Congress member Ayanna Pressleytold CBS This Morning on Wednesday.
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Thanks, I honestly don't know - did this predate Trump's use of the term?

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
I’m not sure I agree with the main thrust of this argument, but it’s a worthwhile perspective to consider:

https://twitter.com/timjacobwise/status/1152930670093787141

It’s by someone who worked against the David Duke political campaigns of the 1990s, and lessons from that experience that may apply to opposing Trump in 2020.
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It's been a while since I said it but I've said it often - these conversations with normal Republicans conservatives about what Trump is doing is very reminiscent of Duke in his campaigns here.

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
I’m not sure I agree with the main thrust of this argument, but it’s a worthwhile perspective to consider:

https://twitter.com/timjacobwise/status/1152930670093787141

It’s by someone who worked against the David Duke political campaigns of the 1990s, and lessons from that experience that may apply to opposing Trump in 2020.
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This was a good read. I agree with a lot of it although I think there are ways to attack Trump's race-baiting without crying "Racist!" from every mountain top.

This is the part that stuck out for me: "What the left never understands is: we need to stop approaching elections like the god####ed debate team, and start approaching it like the right does, like the cheerleading squad...

The right knows psychology and we know public policy and sociology...great. The latter does not win elections..."

 
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