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So much for the theory of the shutdown corner (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter enfuego
- Start date
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Is this where SSOG comes in and talks about how Champ was expecting safety help?
Chump and Dre "I just got blow" Bly are exposed now.
They are not worth all the hype that is for sure, actually they have been pretty below average this season. Pro bowl, I think not so far, but maybe I am just tick because I am a Bronco fan. I think we are along way off from being a playoff team, and I think it might get worst before it gets better. Culter's ok, but our D just checks out sometimes?
peace...
They are not worth all the hype that is for sure, actually they have been pretty below average this season. Pro bowl, I think not so far, but maybe I am just tick because I am a Bronco fan. I think we are along way off from being a playoff team, and I think it might get worst before it gets better. Culter's ok, but our D just checks out sometimes?
peace...
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
So under this theory, if someone wins the Powerball they should be dubbed the Powerball Guru and worshiped for their psychic abilities??Favre got off two great passes that were dead on the money on two great corners that went for big plays.
When you look at CB's they are judged on their body of work and not one play. Those were great passes by a great HOF QB playing in a big game.
Please tell me this is
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BusterTBronco
Footballguy
Not just owned. pwned!
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Regardless of their play tonight, they are still two of the premiere cornerbacks in the league.
Jennings said it best in the postgame inerview. Doesn't matter if you are the best the league has ever seen, or the worst in the NFL, football is a game of inches; and sometimes all you need is a one-inch step of an advantage, as Jennings had on that game-winner.
Jennings said it best in the postgame inerview. Doesn't matter if you are the best the league has ever seen, or the worst in the NFL, football is a game of inches; and sometimes all you need is a one-inch step of an advantage, as Jennings had on that game-winner.
enfuego
Footballguy
Not in the least...This Bronco fan had it right: LINK. You have your orange goggles on.So under this theory, if someone wins the Powerball they should be dubbed the Powerball Guru and worshiped for their psychic abilities??Favre got off two great passes that were dead on the money on two great corners that went for big plays.
When you look at CB's they are judged on their body of work and not one play. Those were great passes by a great HOF QB playing in a big game.
Please tell me this is
strong
Footballguy
There's never been a corner that could play man on man a whole game without getting burned at least a couple times.
Playing corner in the NFL is like a point guard playing defense in the NBA. The defender might slow him up a bit and even shut him down some, but the offensive player is at such an advantage...
Playing corner in the NFL is like a point guard playing defense in the NBA. The defender might slow him up a bit and even shut him down some, but the offensive player is at such an advantage...
prymetyme25
Footballguy
you can tell the guys that know football in here. Any so called "shutdown corner" will tell you that it really has more to do with the QB than the wr's. If you saw the passes I dare you to name any corner present or past that would have been able to make a play on those passes. The wr's didn't even run routes. The passes were perfect and couldn't have been thrown better even if there were no corners out there. THERE IS NO DEFENSE FOR THE PEFECT CONNECTION.
jonessed
Footballguy
Bailey was way out of position and Bly just got flat outran. They were nice throws, but Bailey and Bly screwed up.There are no more shutdown corners. The new rules favor the WRs too much. Bailey is still the best there is right now, but I'm not sold on Bly.
Johnny Ice
Footballguy
Does anyone remember Deion (before his bad toe days) getting torched deep as many times as Champ? I certainly don't.
MogusMaximus
Footballguy
Both were hobbled and playing on an island against Brett Favre. Both were also charged with run stopping duties, especially Bailey who had 7 tackles/6solo. You can't shut down your side of the field when you have to play LB as well.
prymetyme25
Footballguy
I agree about no more Shutdown corners. Bailey doesn't really back pedal and really relys on his recovery speed(which we all can agree is remarkable) so he can be subject to this type of play but lets be honest how many qb's in the league can actually make that throw. As for Bly, you have to admit he was there step for step with jennings but the throw created separation as Favre laid it out exactly 2 yards off on the out of bounds and over the outside shoulder. And I am by no means a Favre supporter but those throws were perfect.
jonessed
Footballguy
I don't think Bailey has the pure athletic ability Deion had.
MogusMaximus
Footballguy
As a Bronco fan I'd agree. Deion still is the most athletic corner to play the game, ever. Better overall football player? Bailey hands down in my book, he is an excellent tackler.
duaneok66
Footballguy
you draft a corner to cover . . .
MogusMaximus
Footballguy
So when the QB takes the snap and immediately throws a quick lateral to the wide out....
enfuego
Footballguy
....go on....
bcr8f
Footballguy
Oh yeah. It's all a mirage. Those 3 MVP's are too.Yeah, and that Jennings/Jones duo might be among the game's elite, too.
MogusMaximus
Footballguy
haha.My point is there are quite a few corners who become a liability because they lack the ability to tackle well. Look at Bly, he sucks at tackling. If you watch Bailey, as soon as he sniffs a run he shoots toward the ball. He has had to step up this roll as a tackler due to our poor LB play, especially Webster's. Deion also sucked at tackling. There is more to playing corner in most schemes than pure coverage.
RavensUNFL
Footballguy
I dislike Champ as much as the next guy, but mainly because of how unrealistic his hype is (Not his fault really) and of course being a Raiders fan doesn't help his cause. But I have no problem giving a great player props, just take it down a notch and stop trying to prove how he is never burnt or no one throws on him or any of that other crap every non bronco fans knows is crap. Also, just because he is burnt, don't reach for the injury card please, if he is healthy enough to play, he has no excuse and knowing the type of player Champ is, he would say the same thing.
The only time Favre tried Deion he picked it for a TD. If Deion was playing on JJ last night, Favre wouldn't have even of looked at that side of the field. End of story.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
Sometimes I wonder whether Champ would have Deion cover skills if he had the Deion mandate where he wouldn't have to be a factor in run defense. I feel like Champ's gotten beaten -- at least this season -- when his eyes are in the backfield during play action since the front 7 can't stop the run.
At any rate, he may not be a "true shutdown" corner but he's still a pleasure to watch. He was the player most responsible for Denver hanging in there early last year as the offense struggled, and he turned around the 2005 season vs. the Chargers when it looked like Denver was headed for a 4-12 season. Honestly, you could probably make an argument for someone else as the best corner in the league, but Champ's still fun to watch. 
How often does Champ get torched deep? Are you basing this off of one play against Green Bay and memories or him playing in the snow against Jerry Porter or on MNF against Chad Johnson three years ago? Champ Bailey allowed the lower YPA against last season than any CB had in the past 4 or 5 years (at least), and he didn't give up a TD all year. I certainly recall Deion getting torched deep more than THAT, even with the rules stacked in his favor like they were back then. Champ gets burned deep sometimes, yes, but people are forgetting about significant portions of Sanders' career if they think that he didn't get burned deep just as much as Champ has over the past 2 and a half years.Also, remember that a CB's performance is always inextricably linked to his pass rush. No CB in history could consistently cover for 5 seconds. *EVER*. You could put Night Train in his prime on Greg Jennings, let him play under the old-school rules, and give him Ronnie Lott helping over top, and Jennings could still get open eventually.As for Bly, I don't think ANYONE ever suggested that he was anything remotely close to a shutdown CB. He's the biggest riverboat gambler in the league. He's going to get absolutely ABUSED on some plays by some pretty mediocre WRs because he takes a lot of chances. He's also going to make a lot of spectacular plays, too. So far in his career, his spectacular plays have more than offset his colossal blunders.
Not if you play a 2-deep zone. In that case, if you don't have CBs you can count on in run support, all the coverage abilities in the world won't matter one bit, because teams will never throw the ball. Why would they, when they could just run a series of screens, sweeps, and tosses to consistently get 6 yards at a time?
There have been seasons I didn't think this was true. Granted I was down on the Lions those years and "everything" went wrong for them but even still I'm not so sure Lions fans would disagree with me here.
Even then... no CB in the entire league saw more 1-on-1 coverage against opposing #1 WRs than Bly did with the Lions. He might have gotten burned a ton, but he got less help than any other CB, and he faced tougher opposition than any other CB. 2005 was pretty horrible, but I think he'd just stopped caring by that point because the Lions were so bad. 2006 was actually a pretty solid year for him- according to Football Outsiders, Detroit ranked 7th in the NFL against opposing #1s, dead last against opposing #2s, 31st against numbers 3-5, and 29th against opposing TEs.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Shutdown Corner.I do not think it means what you think it means. Champ's really good in the run game, though. I'll give him that.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Best corner in the league <> Shutdown CornerHTH
Okay, so shutdown corner means you don't get beat deep? I bet Deion Sanders wishes he was a shutdown CB, then.
Aeneas probably was comparable re vs #1 without help.He's one of my underdog sorta faves. With regards to him, people used to say the rest of the D stinks you'd have to be crazy to throw his way. I can see that but stat-wise that still comes across as a pretty top corner.Back to Bly, I don't think the lack of quality on Detroit's D has been all that dis-similar to Arizona's or maye even St. Louis(a little bit) back when Aeneas was real good.Not the thread but....Re Broncos and Champ, as I said back in the spring....your boys are sorely missing Al Wilson's intangibles. Maybe stat-wise he was replaced but results aren't the same without him IMO. They should have seen this coming and tried to bring him in as a coach.SSOG said:
Just because a player is a good leader on the field doesn't mean he'll be a good coach. I think there's a big reason why you don't see many of those "intangible leader" types go into coaching- it's not because they don't want to be around the game, it's because leading the defense while on the field and leading the defense while on the sidelines are two DRASTICALLY different skillsets. Wilson can't correct the way people line up from the sidelines, and I don't think a coach can really exhort his teammates in that "once more into the breach" sort of way. They could have kept Wilson around as a coach, but (a) Wilson isn't ready to admit that his career is over yet, and (b) I don't think Wilson would be a very good coach at all.
Please, get with the times. Champ hasn't "routinely" gotten beat deep since 2004. You don't allow the lowest YPA against in the past 5 years by routinely getting beaten deep.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
True. He has had two pretty solid years.
Two... dare I say it... shutdown years.
Tau837
Footballguy
Missed this thread until this morning. It turned out quite predictably. My thoughts:
1. Both Bly and Bailey are overrated.
2. Bailey is arguably the best corner in the NFL today, but that says as much about the quality of the field as it does about Bailey.
3. In the abstract (i.e., not in a particular defensive scheme), cover skills are more important than tackling for a corner.
4. In a particular scheme (e.g., cover two), tackling for a corner can be very important. Champ is a very good tackler for a corner, so he is a great corner for this scheme.
5. Sanders is the best CB of the modern era. (Not sure how to compare him to older greats like Lane).
1. Both Bly and Bailey are overrated.
2. Bailey is arguably the best corner in the NFL today, but that says as much about the quality of the field as it does about Bailey.
3. In the abstract (i.e., not in a particular defensive scheme), cover skills are more important than tackling for a corner.
4. In a particular scheme (e.g., cover two), tackling for a corner can be very important. Champ is a very good tackler for a corner, so he is a great corner for this scheme.
5. Sanders is the best CB of the modern era. (Not sure how to compare him to older greats like Lane).
Anyone who has played football or knows football knows this to be true. A perfect pass cannot be defended.
Hahaha.... "you keep using that word..."Pretty funny!!cobalt_27 said:
I think we're going to have a very different opinion of Bailey in retrospect. A large part of the reason why people think Bailey is overrated is because, prior to 2005, he *WAS* overrated. It's impossible to overrate how good Bailey was last year, though- that was arguably the best season any CB has ever had in the history of football (at the least, in the modern era- like you said, hard to compare to past eras), and the fact that it came against the toughest anti-CB rules in the history of the sport makes it that much more impressive. If you look at his career from 2000-2004, then yeah, he was overrated, and the fact that he's the best is a testament to the field as much as it's a testament to Bailey. If you look at 2005-2006, then Bailey is an uberstud who couldn't possibly be overrated. How history views him is in large part going to be determined by where he goes from here.
Tau837
Footballguy
Agree that we have different opinions of Bailey, as of now. We've had this conversation before.
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