Super Bowl LVII ****Kansas City vs Philadelphia**** KC 38...PHI 35 Chiefs are World Champions!!! (3 Viewers)

[Hot Sauce Guy]

It's textbook holding as JuJu is coming out of his break. It wasn't called, and JuJu freaked out after the play because he knew it was. It was a more blatant and impactful tug than what happened late.

The link you shared literally calls it a “missed DPI”

It’s not remotely holding.

Still, I find it to be a weird argument that since Bradberry got away with one penalty earlier in the game he should have gotten away with another later on.

That's not the argument.

Its not about Bradberry getting away with it earlier. It's that everyone had gotten away with it the entire game unless you believe no one held or committed pass interference beforehand except for one WR. No defenders were called for holding and no offensive linemen were either. And then, on one play, they decided to call it.

Then again, maybe everyone on both teams played a perfectfly clean game for 58 minutes lol.

You allege that “everyone” had been “getting away with” penalties all game, which is why the holding call was particularly egregious.

I’m sorry, but the lack of evidence does not constitute evidence.

If you could show me a montage of players “getting away” with penalties “for 58 mins”, then perhaps we can entertain this further. Until then….

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

The PI call was right even if it did seem heavy handed at the time. Regardless, the game was won/lost on those Corn Dog fake jet sweeps. Philly got fooled not once but twice. Also one question I had is could Bradberry have knocked McKinnon into the end zone before he slid on that final run? Defenses probably don't ever practice for that situation but instead of avoiding the tackle what if he carried him or knocked him forward into the end zone? Is that legal? Bradberry was close enough to do it.

We were talking about that in the game topic.

I was saying they shoulda let the chiefs score, and the very next play McKinnon smartly fell down.

A few asked if they Eagles defenders could have tackled him into the end zone for the TD.

I believe the answer is that they could have tackled him across the line but they can’t pull him across

Yes understood a defender can't pull him across but could #24 have pushed him from behind before he slid? McKinnon made it way too close.

As long as he wasn’t down, sure. Players tackle players for positive yards all the time.

 

[Jayrod]

That's not the argument.

Its not about Bradberry getting away with it earlier. It's that everyone had gotten away with it the entire game unless you believe no one held or committed pass interference beforehand except for one WR. No defenders were called for holding and no offensive linemen were either. And then, on one play, they decided to call it.

Then again, maybe everyone on both teams played a perfectfly clean game for 58 minutes lol.

This narrative keeps getting pushed with zero evidence and people are just supposed to accept it as fact, but I've officiated small college games where there just is very little to call. Believe it or not, players actually can block without holding and can cover WR's without committing penalties the overwhelming majority of the time. And in the NFL they are the best in the world, so they know the lines they can't cross. That's why Bradberry admits he fouled.

As far as Ive heard, there was 1 no-call pointed out which went against the Chiefs. Other than that, it was a very cleanly played game.

 

[Steelers4Life]

That's not the argument.

Its not about Bradberry getting away with it earlier. It's that everyone had gotten away with it the entire game unless you believe no one held or committed pass interference beforehand except for one WR. No defenders were called for holding and no offensive linemen were either. And then, on one play, they decided to call it.

Then again, maybe everyone on both teams played a perfectfly clean game for 58 minutes lol.

This narrative keeps getting pushed with zero evidence and people are just supposed to accept it as fact, but I've officiated small college games where there just is very little to call. Believe it or not, players actually can block without holding and can cover WR's without committing penalties the overwhelming majority of the time. And in the NFL they are the best in the world, so they know the lines they can't cross. That's why Bradberry admits he fouled.

As far as Ive heard, there was 1 no-call pointed out which went against the Chiefs. Other than that, it was a very cleanly played game.

As I've said, if someone wants to believe that nobody committed those penalties for 58 minutes before Bradberry, fair enough. Id say that most people don't, which is where the narrative comes from. Itd take a much smarter and more tech savvy person than me to go back and put together a lost of any that could be seen on TV, and a lot isn't even visible.

Its common to believe that penalties can be called on a majority of plays in an NFL game if they strictly enforce the letter of the law. DBs using their hands illegally, offensive linemen bending the rules by grabbing and letting go quickly. Clearly you don't believe that, which is OK.

Im dont like or hate either team. Im just one of many, many football fans/media personalities/former players who feel cheated by missing what should've been one helluva finish.

 

[jhib]

And that's the point exactly. If the refs could call OPI, DPI, or holding on 75% of the plays as you say, ask yourself why they made 0 holding calls, 0 DPI calls, and 1 OPI call in the entire game before that play. It wasn't an isolated miss. It was an approach to not call grabbing and stuff that regularly happens on every play.

They changed the approach they had taken for 58 minutes and made a call that ended the Super Bowl. Disappointing, but whatever.

I think most teams average less that one defensive hold per game, so it is difficult to tell how tightly they are calling it. In fact, I think they average less than 1 defensive holding call per game between the 2 teams. So I am not sure how they establish what they are calling and what they are letting go on an individual game. I would think they would get the feel about what is allowed over the entire season.

Stats for 2022

Defensive Holding - 2022 - View by Teams

All defensive holding penalties that happened in the 2022 season, viewed by teams.

www.nflpenalties.com

Thanks for this. I would have guessed that calls per game for defensive holding and pass interference were significantly higher than what they actually were. And from a lot of arguments I'm reading today, I don't think I'm the only one.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

That's not the argument.

Its not about Bradberry getting away with it earlier. It's that everyone had gotten away with it the entire game unless you believe no one held or committed pass interference beforehand except for one WR. No defenders were called for holding and no offensive linemen were either. And then, on one play, they decided to call it.

Then again, maybe everyone on both teams played a perfectfly clean game for 58 minutes lol.

This narrative keeps getting pushed with zero evidence and people are just supposed to accept it as fact, but I've officiated small college games where there just is very little to call. Believe it or not, players actually can block without holding and can cover WR's without committing penalties the overwhelming majority of the time. And in the NFL they are the best in the world, so they know the lines they can't cross. That's why Bradberry admits he fouled.

As far as Ive heard, there was 1 no-call pointed out which went against the Chiefs. Other than that, it was a very cleanly played game.

And the one no-call was and obvious miss by the officials. It wasn't a borderline 'let them play' non-call. Maybe the official got blocked out or had a really bad angle on the play, but I guarantee that if he had a good view on the first half PI, the flag would have been thrown 10 out of 10 times.

 

[jhib]

It's textbook holding as JuJu is coming out of his break. It wasn't called, and JuJu freaked out after the play because he knew it was. It was a more blatant and impactful tug than what happened late.

The link you shared literally calls it a “missed DPI”

It’s not remotely holding.

Still, I find it to be a weird argument that since Bradberry got away with one penalty earlier in the game he should have gotten away with another later on.

That's not the argument.

Its not about Bradberry getting away with it earlier. It's that everyone had gotten away with it the entire game unless you believe no one held or committed pass interference beforehand except for one WR. No defenders were called for holding and no offensive linemen were either. And then, on one play, they decided to call it.

Then again, maybe everyone on both teams played a perfectfly clean game for 58 minutes lol.

Yeah, I knew that wasn't the real argument so it wasn't fair to present it that way, but it sounds like it when the only other missed DH/DPI call mentioned is the other Bradberry one.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

That's not the argument.

Its not about Bradberry getting away with it earlier. It's that everyone had gotten away with it the entire game unless you believe no one held or committed pass interference beforehand except for one WR. No defenders were called for holding and no offensive linemen were either. And then, on one play, they decided to call it.

Then again, maybe everyone on both teams played a perfectfly clean game for 58 minutes lol.

This narrative keeps getting pushed with zero evidence and people are just supposed to accept it as fact, but I've officiated small college games where there just is very little to call. Believe it or not, players actually can block without holding and can cover WR's without committing penalties the overwhelming majority of the time. And in the NFL they are the best in the world, so they know the lines they can't cross. That's why Bradberry admits he fouled.

As far as Ive heard, there was 1 no-call pointed out which went against the Chiefs. Other than that, it was a very cleanly played game.

As I've said, if someone wants to believe that nobody committed those penalties for 58 minutes before Bradberry, fair enough. Id say that most people don't, which is where the narrative comes from. Itd take a much smarter and more tech savvy person than me to go back and put together a lost of any that could be seen on TV, and a lot isn't even visible.

Its common to believe that penalties can be called on a majority of plays in an NFL game if they strictly enforce the letter of the law. DBs using their hands illegally, offensive linemen bending the rules by grabbing and letting go quickly. Clearly you don't believe that, which is OK.

Im dont like or hate either team. Im just one of many, many football fans/media personalities/former players who feel cheated by missing what should've been one helluva finish.

Based on nothing but spurious folklore. A tired cliche that “you can call holding on any play” probably muttered by Collinsworth as a time-filler on a random call.

I feel bad for you. I thoroughly enjoyed the game. It was highly competitive and the Chiefs pulled out a huge come from behind gutty win. Mahomes with the bad ankle and all.

Sorry you didn’t to see get that last drive. Perhaps if Bradberry hadn’t committed that holding penalty we would have all seen some fireworks by the Eagles.

 

[jhib]

If there's basically just one defensive holding call made per game, at what point of the game is it too late to call one (because you didn't call any others earlier)?

 

[BobbyLayne]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

Where did Andy get his celebratory burger from? What was Pat's wait like at Space Mountain? Did Willie Gay get teased a lot in High School for his last name? Did that make him stronger?

That play the Chiefs used to get Toney and Skyy Moore so wide open was called "Corn Dog" in the playbook.

those fake jet sweeps were brilliant
they definitely dipped the CBs in ketchup and mustard on those

Check out this Week 4 play Jax v Phi

not the same exact play as the Toney but very similar - Jamal Agnew short motion behind the split end, reverses it, Eagles DBs are confused and it’s wide open

Pederson is an Andy protégé, lot of common plays/scheme/terminology, I’m sure they found this one & said “hey let’s put this one in the RZ package”

then they throw in the wrinkle it’s an RPO & have the motion presnap so Patrick can know right away if it’s there or if should he hand off

different play on the opposite side next possession (no run option) but same short motion/reverse it concept, Eagles DB were again totally confused, just like they were back in Week 4

 

[BobbyLayne]

full credit where credit is due

J.T. O'Sullivan (YT The QB School) breaks down the scheme on the Toney TD - Ted Nguyen of The Athletic found the Jags play

 

[BobbyLayne]

WRT the final play - much more interesting than if it's a hold is the scheme

here's an article from Oct 2020 from the aforementioned Ted Nguyen. It's behind a paywall and I couldn't find it at archive,ph so here is the relevant portion:

Spoiler

The whip route and the creative ways teams are utilizing it

By Ted Nguyen
Oct 27, 2020

---

The whip route is one that most of us have tried to run when we played backyard football. When that crafty corner on the other side, kept playing you 3-4 steps inside because you’ve been killing him on in-breaking routes, you tell your quarterback, “I’m going to fake inside and then break back outside” and it probably worked! That’s essentially all a whip route is, even in more organized levels of football.

A whip route first threatens a corner’s inside and in third-and-medium to short-yardage situations, the inside is where corners are most wary of getting beat. Getting beat by an easy in-breaking route gets defensive backs yelled at on the sideline. The whip is a route normally used for slot receivers but there are many creative ways to utilize it for outside receivers as well.

The big takeaway here, besides explaining the basic inside route-return whip route, is pretty much everyone runs this as stem then sit down at the break point if uncovered, or break to the sideline if matched. You run parallel to the LOS and do not drift upfield to give the QB a better angle.

What JTO points out is Reid throws in a twist to the whip route no one else uses, which is the WR converts the route to a wheel on the reverse. Because Kelce is on a post (the other TE outside him is on a buttonhook) there's a huge open area for McKinnon to drift toward. Bradberry knows he is in trouble bc he's got no help.

Superior red zone scheme leads to the hold & the flag.

 

[Godsbrother]

Weird that people feel cheated by a legitimate holding play being called a penalty.

What a bizzaro world we live in.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

As I've said, if someone wants to believe that nobody committed those penalties for 58 minutes before Bradberry, fair enough

If some one wants to believe the refs purposely let every holding call go before in the game and waited to call one in the last two minutes to screw the Eagles, fair enough.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Weird that people feel cheated by a legitimate holding play being called a penalty.

What a bizzaro world we live in.

People just love to complain.

 

[Insein]

At least everyone here is more calm and rational about it than this dude.

at least that dude didn't have to watch the pathetic attempt at a hail mary to end the game.

I feel like not enough people are talking about that 40 yard wobbly duck. Is that really the farthest Hurts can throw?

It clearly slipped out of his hand. He has thrown further all year.

 

[ChiefD]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

Where did Andy get his celebratory burger from? What was Pat's wait like at Space Mountain? Did Willie Gay get teased a lot in High School for his last name? Did that make him stronger?

That play the Chiefs used to get Toney and Skyy Moore so wide open was called "Corn Dog" in the playbook.

those fake jet sweeps were brilliant
they definitely dipped the CBs in ketchup and mustard on those

Check out this Week 4 play Jax v Phi

not the same exact play as the Toney but very similar - Jamal Agnew short motion behind the split end, reverses it, Eagles DBs are confused and it’s wide open

Pederson is an Andy protégé, lot of common plays/scheme/terminology, I’m sure they found this one & said “hey let’s put this one in the RZ package”

then they throw in the wrinkle it’s an RPO & have the motion presnap so Patrick can know right away if it’s there or if should he hand off

different play on the opposite side next possession (no run option) but same short motion/reverse it concept, Eagles DB were again totally confused, just like they were back in Week 4

Yep, exactly. Saw that on a highlights show right after the Super Bowl. Great example on how these coaches use film to win games.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

baby photos of Travis and Jason.

They're from NE Ohio explaining BOTH wearing Bernie Kosar jerseys.
----------
Bernie Kosar
@BernieKosarQB
May the best Bernie Kosar Jersey wearing Kelce win #UMatter http://Kosar19.Com ⁦
@tkelce
⁩ ⁦
@JasonKelce
⁩ ⁦
@BernieKosarShow
⁩ Go #Cleveland
======
Picture

 

[The Kerminator]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

Where did Andy get his celebratory burger from? What was Pat's wait like at Space Mountain? Did Willie Gay get teased a lot in High School for his last name? Did that make him stronger?

That play the Chiefs used to get Toney and Skyy Moore so wide open was called "Corn Dog" in the playbook.

those fake jet sweeps were brilliant
they definitely dipped the CBs in ketchup and mustard on those

Check out this Week 4 play Jax v Phi

not the same exact play as the Toney but very similar - Jamal Agnew short motion behind the split end, reverses it, Eagles DBs are confused and it’s wide open

Pederson is an Andy protégé, lot of common plays/scheme/terminology, I’m sure they found this one & said “hey let’s put this one in the RZ package”

then they throw in the wrinkle it’s an RPO & have the motion presnap so Patrick can know right away if it’s there or if should he hand off

different play on the opposite side next possession (no run option) but same short motion/reverse it concept, Eagles DB were again totally confused, just like they were back in Week 4

Just an excellent example of good coaching and use of film study. Even more ironic that both Pederson and Reid are former Eagle head coaches

 

[Ghost Rider]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

Where did Andy get his celebratory burger from? What was Pat's wait like at Space Mountain? Did Willie Gay get teased a lot in High School for his last name? Did that make him stronger?

That play the Chiefs used to get Toney and Skyy Moore so wide open was called "Corn Dog" in the playbook.

those fake jet sweeps were brilliant
they definitely dipped the CBs in ketchup and mustard on those

Check out this Week 4 play Jax v Phi

not the same exact play as the Toney but very similar - Jamal Agnew short motion behind the split end, reverses it, Eagles DBs are confused and it’s wide open

Pederson is an Andy protégé, lot of common plays/scheme/terminology, I’m sure they found this one & said “hey let’s put this one in the RZ package”

then they throw in the wrinkle it’s an RPO & have the motion presnap so Patrick can know right away if it’s there or if should he hand off

different play on the opposite side next possession (no run option) but same short motion/reverse it concept, Eagles DB were again totally confused, just like they were back in Week 4

Just an excellent example of good coaching and use of film study. Even more ironic that both Pederson and Reid are former Eagle head coaches

Agreed. Acho on FS1's Speak yesterday broke down both the Toney and Moore TDs from Sunday and showed how the Chiefs motion and design totally fooled the Eagles defense, which is why both guys were wide open in space for easy catch and scores. This is why I say you cannot underestimate the importance of coaching. Yes, Mahomes is awesome, but having Andy Reid as a head coach is a benefit that every other QB in the league does not have.

 

[ChiefD]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

Where did Andy get his celebratory burger from? What was Pat's wait like at Space Mountain? Did Willie Gay get teased a lot in High School for his last name? Did that make him stronger?

That play the Chiefs used to get Toney and Skyy Moore so wide open was called "Corn Dog" in the playbook.

those fake jet sweeps were brilliant
they definitely dipped the CBs in ketchup and mustard on those

Check out this Week 4 play Jax v Phi

not the same exact play as the Toney but very similar - Jamal Agnew short motion behind the split end, reverses it, Eagles DBs are confused and it’s wide open

Pederson is an Andy protégé, lot of common plays/scheme/terminology, I’m sure they found this one & said “hey let’s put this one in the RZ package”

then they throw in the wrinkle it’s an RPO & have the motion presnap so Patrick can know right away if it’s there or if should he hand off

different play on the opposite side next possession (no run option) but same short motion/reverse it concept, Eagles DB were again totally confused, just like they were back in Week 4

Just an excellent example of good coaching and use of film study. Even more ironic that both Pederson and Reid are former Eagle head coaches

Agreed. Acho on FS1's Speak yesterday broke down both the Toney and Moore TDs from Sunday and showed how the Chiefs motion and design totally fooled the Eagles defense, which is why both guys were wide open in space for easy catch and scores. This is why I say you cannot underestimate the importance of coaching. Yes, Mahomes is awesome, but having Andy Reid as a head coach is a benefit that every other QB in the league does not have.

I was watching NFL Network last night and they were explaining that Reid ran those exact same plays out of that exact formation earlier in the game but had Toney complete his motion through the formation so the Eagles would follow him through. Reid was setting up that play for later in the game.

Amazing.

 

[modogg]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

Where did Andy get his celebratory burger from? What was Pat's wait like at Space Mountain? Did Willie Gay get teased a lot in High School for his last name? Did that make him stronger?

That play the Chiefs used to get Toney and Skyy Moore so wide open was called "Corn Dog" in the playbook.

those fake jet sweeps were brilliant
they definitely dipped the CBs in ketchup and mustard on those

Check out this Week 4 play Jax v Phi

not the same exact play as the Toney but very similar - Jamal Agnew short motion behind the split end, reverses it, Eagles DBs are confused and it’s wide open

Pederson is an Andy protégé, lot of common plays/scheme/terminology, I’m sure they found this one & said “hey let’s put this one in the RZ package”

then they throw in the wrinkle it’s an RPO & have the motion presnap so Patrick can know right away if it’s there or if should he hand off

different play on the opposite side next possession (no run option) but same short motion/reverse it concept, Eagles DB were again totally confused, just like they were back in Week 4

Just an excellent example of good coaching and use of film study. Even more ironic that both Pederson and Reid are former Eagle head coaches

Agreed. Acho on FS1's Speak yesterday broke down both the Toney and Moore TDs from Sunday and showed how the Chiefs motion and design totally fooled the Eagles defense, which is why both guys were wide open in space for easy catch and scores. This is why I say you cannot underestimate the importance of coaching. Yes, Mahomes is awesome, but having Andy Reid as a head coach is a benefit that every other QB in the league does not have.

I was watching NFL Network last night and they were explaining that Reid ran those exact same plays out of that exact formation earlier in the game but had Toney complete his motion through the formation so the Eagles would follow him through. Reid was setting up that play for later in the game.

Amazing.

i would call it depressing . I am glad Reid has continued to grow and improve from his days in Philly, i think too many coaches have too much of an ego to do that

 

[The Kerminator]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

Where did Andy get his celebratory burger from? What was Pat's wait like at Space Mountain? Did Willie Gay get teased a lot in High School for his last name? Did that make him stronger?

That play the Chiefs used to get Toney and Skyy Moore so wide open was called "Corn Dog" in the playbook.

those fake jet sweeps were brilliant
they definitely dipped the CBs in ketchup and mustard on those

Check out this Week 4 play Jax v Phi

not the same exact play as the Toney but very similar - Jamal Agnew short motion behind the split end, reverses it, Eagles DBs are confused and it’s wide open

Pederson is an Andy protégé, lot of common plays/scheme/terminology, I’m sure they found this one & said “hey let’s put this one in the RZ package”

then they throw in the wrinkle it’s an RPO & have the motion presnap so Patrick can know right away if it’s there or if should he hand off

different play on the opposite side next possession (no run option) but same short motion/reverse it concept, Eagles DB were again totally confused, just like they were back in Week 4

Just an excellent example of good coaching and use of film study. Even more ironic that both Pederson and Reid are former Eagle head coaches

Agreed. Acho on FS1's Speak yesterday broke down both the Toney and Moore TDs from Sunday and showed how the Chiefs motion and design totally fooled the Eagles defense, which is why both guys were wide open in space for easy catch and scores. This is why I say you cannot underestimate the importance of coaching. Yes, Mahomes is awesome, but having Andy Reid as a head coach is a benefit that every other QB in the league does not have.

I guess the question needs to be asked as well how do the Philadelphia coaches not adjust to that after the Jacksonville game?

 

[ChiefD]

I guess the question needs to be asked as well how do the Philadelphia coaches not adjust to that after the Jacksonville game?

Good question.

I know from reading a lot of stuff about the Chiefs over the years is that Reid's offense is really complicated to pick up. That's why it's so hard for rookie receivers to really contribute a whole lot. They are required to learn routes on top of routes. From what I understand Reid uses a lot of base formations but each receiver has several different routes they have to know coming out of those formations.

And every receiver needs to learn the route tree from every position in that formation. Which is why they line up guys all over the place. Kelce may be in the slot and a running back out wide. Or they may line Ju-Ju on one side one time but the next time they line him in the slot on the other side of the formation.

So basically they can take any receiver on the roster and line them up anywhere and they have to know the responsibility of that position on each formation.

 

[Amused to Death]

I know it's officially the off season now, and that this is a fantasy football geek site for us nerds who like to hyper analyze everything, but can somebody in the NFL have a personal scandal, or something soon, please? I am officially over "phantom hold gate", and would like to hear about anything else.

Where did Andy get his celebratory burger from? What was Pat's wait like at Space Mountain? Did Willie Gay get teased a lot in High School for his last name? Did that make him stronger?

That play the Chiefs used to get Toney and Skyy Moore so wide open was called "Corn Dog" in the playbook.

those fake jet sweeps were brilliant
they definitely dipped the CBs in ketchup and mustard on those

Check out this Week 4 play Jax v Phi

not the same exact play as the Toney but very similar - Jamal Agnew short motion behind the split end, reverses it, Eagles DBs are confused and it’s wide open

Pederson is an Andy protégé, lot of common plays/scheme/terminology, I’m sure they found this one & said “hey let’s put this one in the RZ package”

then they throw in the wrinkle it’s an RPO & have the motion presnap so Patrick can know right away if it’s there or if should he hand off

different play on the opposite side next possession (no run option) but same short motion/reverse it concept, Eagles DB were again totally confused, just like they were back in Week 4

Just an excellent example of good coaching and use of film study. Even more ironic that both Pederson and Reid are former Eagle head coaches

Agreed. Acho on FS1's Speak yesterday broke down both the Toney and Moore TDs from Sunday and showed how the Chiefs motion and design totally fooled the Eagles defense, which is why both guys were wide open in space for easy catch and scores. This is why I say you cannot underestimate the importance of coaching. Yes, Mahomes is awesome, but having Andy Reid as a head coach is a benefit that every other QB in the league does not have.

I guess the question needs to be asked as well how do the Philadelphia coaches not adjust to that after the Jacksonville game?

Because the Eagles DC came up small and Eagles fans are hoping he gets the Arizona job.

 

[brettdj]

I know college and NFL officiating have some differences, but I think keys and basic philosophies are very similar. Here is my understanding of the officiating of the defensive holding play.

Each of 5 officials are assigned an eligible receiver/back prior to the snap based on the formation. Widest receiver on each side is the deep wing's key (FJ/SJ) and then from there assigned to the short wings (LJ/DJ) and back judge depending on strong side or balanced keys (back judge shades to LJ side with LJ taking a back). If they read pass, they stay with their key to observe any potential holding or OPI action or anything bigger (facemask, unnecessary roughness, etc.). Once the play develops and some eligibles cross, the officials can/will switch keys or go to more of a zone coverage philosophy (like of the LJ key goes deep up the middle or the BJ key stays short in the flat). All of that takes a lot of pregame discussion, film review and communication during games to keep straight and organized.

Once the ball is thrown, typically anyone near the target area immediately should look at the intended receiver and covering defenders to watch for pass interference either way and then to help with catch/no catch determination.

I say all of that to say that the DH was one guy's call as none of the other officials would have (or should have) been looking there at that time. It was the deep wing's key (who was stationary at the goal line when they snap from the 15 yl) and he would have just stared at Smith-Shuster and Bradberry two the entire play where he would have seen the restriction and the jersey pull, looked to find the football (still in Mahomes hand in the pocket). He then immediately decided to throw the flag. Note the flag throw is already started while the ball is in the air which means he committed to it right before the pass was thrown. This decision was made in about a second and based on years of experience and film study and discussions with other officials and officiating trainers. While it was a quick judgement and reactionary call, it wasn't done in a vacuum and it wasn't this officials first DH call of the season or career. He saw the play, felt it met his threshold for material restriction and the rest of the play met the criteria for a defensive hold, so he threw the flag.

This is a great explanation. This is how the NFL officials teach the NCAA officials. I believe the possible DPI that was missed earlier, may have been missed because one official moved to zone before the other picked up Smith-Shuster. Unless the covering official thought SS slipped, highly probable on this field.

 

[TampaMike19]

You gotta force some more punts man. Those second half scoring drives are brutal for the defensive morale, offensive rhythm, and overall morale

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Weird that people feel cheated by a legitimate holding play being called a penalty.

What a bizzaro world we live in.

To each his own I guess, I think it is odd not to feel cheated by the way the game ended. Being satisfied with such a great game ending on a questionable call seems odd. I don't like either team, but since one of them had to win I was rooting for KC all the way. Would have liked to see a great game like that play out, rather than the lame last 2 minutes. Was it a penalty, yep, could juju have caught that ball, nope, no effing way imho. Others see it differently and that's fine, reasonable minds can disagree.

 

[jhib]

It's textbook holding as JuJu is coming out of his break. It wasn't called, and JuJu freaked out after the play because he knew it was. It was a more blatant and impactful tug than what happened late.

The link you shared literally calls it a “missed DPI”

It’s not remotely holding.

The funny thing is, I remember seeing another nearby WR on that same play obviously being held by the jersey as he ran down the field. Now I can't find a replay with that in view since the focus is on Bradberry/JuJu.
Still, I find it to be a weird argument that since Bradberry got away with one penalty earlier in the game he should have gotten away with another later on.

This clip has what I was talking about with Maddux (#29) in view with Valdez-Scantling's (#11) jersey in hand. It actually isn't as bad as I had originally thought, as it doesn't look as if it restricted a move as much as the Bradberry hold. But it still seems like what would have been another legit call on the same play.

imgur.com

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

imgur.com

 

[GoBirds]

Weird that people feel cheated by a legitimate holding play being called a penalty.

What a bizzaro world we live in.

To each his own I guess, I think it is odd not to feel cheated by the way that ended. Being satisfied with such a great game ending on a questionable call seems odd. I don't like either team, but since one of them had to win I was rooting for KC all the way. Would have liked to see a great game like that play out, rather than the lame last 2 minutes. Was it a penalty, yep, could juju have caught that ball, nope, no effing way imho. Others see it differently and that's fine, reasonable minds can disagree.

Agreed. I’ve never heard so many in favor of ticky tacky penalties suddenly getting called only in the last couple minutes of a game but they clearly are ready to die on that hill as it seems like a broken record in here.

That play goes uncalled many time, who wouldn’t want to see an exciting finish?

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Weird that people feel cheated by a legitimate holding play being called a penalty.

What a bizzaro world we live in.

To each his own I guess, I think it is odd not to feel cheated by the way that ended. Being satisfied with such a great game ending on a questionable call seems odd. I don't like either team, but since one of them had to win I was rooting for KC all the way. Would have liked to see a great game like that play out, rather than the lame last 2 minutes. Was it a penalty, yep, could juju have caught that ball, nope, no effing way imho. Others see it differently and that's fine, reasonable minds can disagree.

If no hold had occurred and Juju had a full yard and a half on the defender going to an open area, do you think Mahomes throws the ball away?

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Weird that people feel cheated by a legitimate holding play being called a penalty.

What a bizzaro world we live in.

To each his own I guess, I think it is odd not to feel cheated by the way that ended. Being satisfied with such a great game ending on a questionable call seems odd. I don't like either team, but since one of them had to win I was rooting for KC all the way. Would have liked to see a great game like that play out, rather than the lame last 2 minutes. Was it a penalty, yep, could juju have caught that ball, nope, no effing way imho. Others see it differently and that's fine, reasonable minds can disagree.

Agreed. I’ve never heard so many in favor of ticky tacky penalties suddenly getting called only in the last couple minutes of a game but they clearly are ready to die on that hill as it seems like a broken record in here.

That play goes uncalled many time, who wouldn’t want to see an exciting finish?

I think most people would have preferred it not to be called, but understand the ref's decision. I think people have an issue when fans come in here and say it was the worse call in SB history. It was a little ticky tacky, but also justified. There have been so much worse calls and non-calls. The 3rd down non-call PI in the first half was way more disappointing then the defensive hold at the end of the game.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Weird that people feel cheated by a legitimate holding play being called a penalty.

What a bizzaro world we live in.

To each his own I guess, I think it is odd not to feel cheated by the way that ended. Being satisfied with such a great game ending on a questionable call seems odd. I don't like either team, but since one of them had to win I was rooting for KC all the way. Would have liked to see a great game like that play out, rather than the lame last 2 minutes. Was it a penalty, yep, could juju have caught that ball, nope, no effing way imho. Others see it differently and that's fine, reasonable minds can disagree.

If no hold had occurred and Juju had a full yard and a half on the defender going to an open area, do you think Mahomes throws the ball away?

Don't think anyone knows for sure where Mahomes puts the ball.

Do you think the outcome of the game was decided on that play?

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Weird that people feel cheated by a legitimate holding play being called a penalty.

What a bizzaro world we live in.

To each his own I guess, I think it is odd not to feel cheated by the way that ended. Being satisfied with such a great game ending on a questionable call seems odd. I don't like either team, but since one of them had to win I was rooting for KC all the way. Would have liked to see a great game like that play out, rather than the lame last 2 minutes. Was it a penalty, yep, could juju have caught that ball, nope, no effing way imho. Others see it differently and that's fine, reasonable minds can disagree.

Agreed. I’ve never heard so many in favor of ticky tacky penalties suddenly getting called only in the last couple minutes of a game but they clearly are ready to die on that hill as it seems like a broken record in here.

That play goes uncalled many time, who wouldn’t want to see an exciting finish?

I think most people would have preferred it not to be called, but understand the ref's decision. I think people have an issue when fans come in here and say it was the worse call in SB history. It was a little ticky tacky, but also justified. There have been so much worse calls and non-calls. The 3rd down non-call PI in the first half was way more disappointing then the defensive hold at the end of the game.

Agreed, I am not one of "the worst sb calls guys" and haven't read any prior pages. Just responding to the one post and think it is weird to diss those of us who would have preferred the flag stay in the pocket so we could see how it plays out.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

At least everyone here is more calm and rational about it than this dude.

at least that dude didn't have to watch the pathetic attempt at a hail mary to end the game.

I feel like not enough people are talking about that 40 yard wobbly duck. Is that really the farthest Hurts can throw?

It clearly slipped out of his hand. He has thrown further all year.

Yeah, someone posted that he stepped on Kelce’s foot & video confirms.

 

[modogg]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Just responding to the one post and think it is weird to diss those of us who would have preferred the flag stay in the pocket so we could see how it plays out.

1st off, no one is “dissing” anyone. People can respectfully disagree about things. So far that’s what I’ve seen in here.

That said, and to the quoted part, I think it’s even more weird that some of you would prefer an official literally turn a blind eye to a penalty that occurred right in front of them in a crucial part of the game, because it’s a close and late situation - as though penalties shouldn’t be called in those situations because [reasons].

Heck, I’d prefer the flags stay in the pocket every time my team was about to lose because of a poor choice by a defender that drew a flag, but then football would lose all credibility and we’d all stop watching.

If it’s a penalty in the 1st 2 mins of the game, it’s a penalty in the last 2 mins. It would be an outrage had the ref not called it. That doesn’t make anyone a fan of ticky tacky penalties. It makes one a fan of the NFL having integrity.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Legit beef with the field. It’s crazy that there was no pass rush by either team all game.

Killed my under. Murdered it.

NFL loves them some high scoring games.

 

[modogg]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Legit beef with the field. It’s crazy that there was no pass rush by either team all game.

Killed my under. Murdered it.

NFL loves them some high scoring games.

it really is crazy. I mean you look across the entire world at all the rugby and soccer fields out there, and this is the product they have for the most important game of the season? just makes no sense how they can let this happen, like they just throw $800,000 around and no one really monitors or checks it out?

 

[efactor]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Legit beef with the field. It’s crazy that there was no pass rush by either team all game.

Killed my under. Murdered it.

NFL loves them some high scoring games.

it really is crazy. I mean you look across the entire world at all the rugby and soccer fields out there, and this is the product they have for the most important game of the season? just makes no sense how they can let this happen, like they just throw $800,000 around and no one really monitors or checks it out?

Hard to believe the NFL wasn't aware of the field conditions and how it would impact the game. They are aware of every detail but nobody thought to monitor the playing field?

Call me cynical on that. They wanted a high scoring game and they got it.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Just responding to the one post and think it is weird to diss those of us who would have preferred the flag stay in the pocket so we could see how it plays out.

1st off, no one is “dissing” anyone. People can respectfully disagree about things. So far that’s what I’ve seen in here.

That said, and to the quoted part, I think it’s even more weird that some of you would prefer an official literally turn a blind eye to a penalty that occurred right in front of them in a crucial part of the game, because it’s a close and late situation - as though penalties shouldn’t be called in those situations because [reasons].

Heck, I’d prefer the flags stay in the pocket every time my team was about to lose because of a poor choice by a defender that drew a flag, but then football would lose all credibility and we’d all stop watching.

If it’s a penalty in the 1st 2 mins of the game, it’s a penalty in the last 2 mins. It would be an outrage has the ref not called it. That doesn’t make anyone a fan of ticky tacky penalties. It makes one a fan of the NFL having integrity.

IMHO, labelling opposing opinions as weird and coming from a bizzarro world is a bit of a diss and if you don't agree that's fine (won't call u weird or bizarre

We can agree to disagree, many of us feel that time and situation should be and in fact often is considered and those outcomes tend to be the best.

All good man!

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Legit beef with the field. It’s crazy that there was no pass rush by either team all game.

Killed my under. Murdered it.

NFL loves them some high scoring games.

it really is crazy. I mean you look across the entire world at all the rugby and soccer fields out there, and this is the product they have for the most important game of the season? just makes no sense how they can let this happen, like they just throw $800,000 around and no one really monitors or checks it out?

Hard to believe the NFL wasn't aware of the field conditions and how it would impact the game. They are aware of every detail but nobody thought to monitor the playing field?

Call me cynical on that. They wanted a high scoring game and they got it.

Of any conspiracy theory, I'm actually on board with this one.

I do not believe the NFL rigs games, I do not believe games are scripted, but I absolutely believe the NFL wanted fireworks. It's the only explanation for that field. Watching videos of Chiefs & Eagles elite DL members looking like they're tryina rush the passer on ice skates is something else.

THIS is something people should be outraged by.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Twice TD scorers couldn't even stand up on their first try because they were slipping.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

IMHO, labelling opposing opinions as weird and living in a bizzarro is a bit of a diss and if you don't agree that's fine (won't call u weird or bizarre

I said "weird" because you did.

 

[Amused to Death]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Legit beef with the field. It’s crazy that there was no pass rush by either team all game.

Killed my under. Murdered it.

NFL loves them some high scoring games.

it really is crazy. I mean you look across the entire world at all the rugby and soccer fields out there, and this is the product they have for the most important game of the season? just makes no sense how they can let this happen, like they just throw $800,000 around and no one really monitors or checks it out?

Hard to believe the NFL wasn't aware of the field conditions and how it would impact the game. They are aware of every detail but nobody thought to monitor the playing field?

Call me cynical on that. They wanted a high scoring game and they got it.

Weird. Going into the game, one of the Eagles' advantages was supposed to be their pass rush from the front 4.

The head groundskeeper was from the KC organization, correct?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Legit beef with the field. It’s crazy that there was no pass rush by either team all game.

Killed my under. Murdered it.

NFL loves them some high scoring games.

it really is crazy. I mean you look across the entire world at all the rugby and soccer fields out there, and this is the product they have for the most important game of the season? just makes no sense how they can let this happen, like they just throw $800,000 around and no one really monitors or checks it out?

Hard to believe the NFL wasn't aware of the field conditions and how it would impact the game. They are aware of every detail but nobody thought to monitor the playing field?

Call me cynical on that. They wanted a high scoring game and they got it.

Weird. Going into the game, one of the Eagles' advantages was supposed to be their pass rush from the front 4.

The head groundskeeper was from the KC organization, correct?

I bet the under because 1. Eagles pass rush/secondary, and 2. KC's underrated pass rush & secondary.

Both teams were effected by it, so the bolded is a bit too conspiratorial for my tastes.

 

[efactor]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Legit beef with the field. It’s crazy that there was no pass rush by either team all game.

Killed my under. Murdered it.

NFL loves them some high scoring games.

it really is crazy. I mean you look across the entire world at all the rugby and soccer fields out there, and this is the product they have for the most important game of the season? just makes no sense how they can let this happen, like they just throw $800,000 around and no one really monitors or checks it out?

Hard to believe the NFL wasn't aware of the field conditions and how it would impact the game. They are aware of every detail but nobody thought to monitor the playing field?

Call me cynical on that. They wanted a high scoring game and they got it.

Of any conspiracy theory, I'm actually on board with this one.

I do not believe the NFL rigs games, I do not believe games are scripted, but I absolutely believe the NFL wanted fireworks. It's the only explanation for that field. Watching videos of Chiefs & Eagles elite DL members looking like they're tryina rush the passer on ice skates is something else.

THIS is something people should be outraged by.

I don't believe in "rigged and scripted" either but I definitely believe preference given to teams that are more "marketable" in the eyes of the NFL. No way Philly gets that same holding call at the end of the game. Mahomes has been in 3 super bowls. Against SF and Philly, calls went KCs way. Against TB and Tom Brady, they didn't. Not a coincidence. Brady was still the NFLs boy.

For people that host super bowl parties, where a lot of uneducated fans are in attendence, the "preferred team" is the one with the hyped players. Unfortunately, I am forced to invite several couples to Super Bowl that don't watch much football. ALL of them wanted KC to win because of Mahomes. One guy even wore a Mahomes jersey although he didn't know a football from a breast before he got married because he had never held either (thanks Al Bundy). Non football fans spend money too. Those people are the same people that actually watch the crappy halftime shows while the rest of us are hanging outside, BSing over a beer or cocktail). Horrible to watch a game with people like that. The worst.

Sports have been "rigged" IMO. The NBA in particular. Lakers vs Kings in 2002 was no doubt, especially game 6. I was a huge Lakers fan at the time before I totally stopped watching the NBA and even I knew how bad it looked. Of course if the Kings had made their free throws, they still would have won, but that's beside the point. NBA wanted the Lakers to win and the crooked referee, Tim Donaghy confirmed that. Of course it was swept under the rug and forgotten about. The guy was a crook, but he wasn't wrong.

Anyway, field was bad for a reason.

 

[Amused to Death]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Legit beef with the field. It’s crazy that there was no pass rush by either team all game.

Killed my under. Murdered it.

NFL loves them some high scoring games.

it really is crazy. I mean you look across the entire world at all the rugby and soccer fields out there, and this is the product they have for the most important game of the season? just makes no sense how they can let this happen, like they just throw $800,000 around and no one really monitors or checks it out?

Hard to believe the NFL wasn't aware of the field conditions and how it would impact the game. They are aware of every detail but nobody thought to monitor the playing field?

Call me cynical on that. They wanted a high scoring game and they got it.

Weird. Going into the game, one of the Eagles' advantages was supposed to be their pass rush from the front 4.

The head groundskeeper was from the KC organization, correct?

I bet the under because 1. Eagles pass rush/secondary, and 2. KC's underrated pass rush & secondary.

Both teams were effected by it, so the bolded is a bit too conspiratorial for my tastes.

Apparently he's been in charge of the turf for the SB for a long time. But yes, I thought it was strange they'd let the head groundskeeper from one of the participating teams do it. If for no other reason than to remove the conflict of interest.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Lakers vs Kings in 2002 was no doubt, especially game 6.

Ah yes - the "tackle" with no whistle.

My dad stopped watching basketball for a long time after that - until the full scandal broke & the NBA cleaned up the refereeing. They still miss way too many travels, but it's better.

As for the NFL favoring some teams, I'm not with you on that at all.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

ugh, this field. i have really got to watching these guys (Ahman Green and Mike Wahle from the Packers). good thoughts on the games, and this field is simply inexcusable:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Legit beef with the field. It’s crazy that there was no pass rush by either team all game.

Killed my under. Murdered it.

NFL loves them some high scoring games.

it really is crazy. I mean you look across the entire world at all the rugby and soccer fields out there, and this is the product they have for the most important game of the season? just makes no sense how they can let this happen, like they just throw $800,000 around and no one really monitors or checks it out?

Hard to believe the NFL wasn't aware of the field conditions and how it would impact the game. They are aware of every detail but nobody thought to monitor the playing field?

Call me cynical on that. They wanted a high scoring game and they got it.

Weird. Going into the game, one of the Eagles' advantages was supposed to be their pass rush from the front 4.

The head groundskeeper was from the KC organization, correct?

I bet the under because 1. Eagles pass rush/secondary, and 2. KC's underrated pass rush & secondary.

Both teams were effected by it, so the bolded is a bit too conspiratorial for my tastes.

Apparently he's been in charge of the turf for the SB for a long time. But yes, I thought it was strange they'd let the head groundskeeper from one of the participating teams do it. If for no other reason than to remove the conflict of interest.

Just googled this - "the sodfather" is a 94 year old dude who does indeed work for the Chiefs.

Groundskeeper, 94, for every Super Bowl field prepares for his last

Toma began working on the fields for Super Bowl I in 1967. He revealed that they had a budget of just $500 but that figure has risen with recent turfs costing around $750,000 with a team of 30.

www.dailymail.co.uk

This was his last job before retirement. That's a crazy factoid. Still - both teams played on it, and both teams struggled with it. I think it's more an AZ thing, because the Chefs were complaining about the turf in their last trip there.