"Tell me about the last time you saw another man's sack." (1 Viewer)

[Kal El]

Those of us in here who identify ourselves as Christian really shouldn't be surprised by the reaction we get for daring to stand up for our beliefs. Granted, it takes courage to stand up for an unpopular viewpoint, but we were told several times by Jesus that the world would hate us for our beliefs and association with Jesus.

That being said, whether a person is straight, gay, or has this thing for toasters, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We're all loved by Him, and despite our efforts, nothing we do will make Him love us less.

ETA: Misspelled "despite."

Nobody is "standing up for your beliefs," my friend, and there's nothing courageous about it. They're anonymously posting on a message board that they disapprove of something other people do and feel. I don't know what that is, but it's sure as heck not courage.

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Why should we be demonizing anyone? The man has made his own choice, and it should be left at that, I feel. Why is someone's sexuality such a big deal in the first place? Hey everyone, I love women! See, nobody cares.

So you don't think it is courageous at all then, right?

I think that someone's sexuality is their own business. Frankly, it would have been more courageous if he had come out in the middle of his contract.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Here's a nice read that I think is applicable given the recent turn this thread has taken.

All this article does is reinforce the fact that anyone that doesn't offer nothing but congratulations with this is somehow an idiot, redneck, whatever...

I stopped reading right after the title.

 

[Eephus]

Those of us in here who identify ourselves as Christian really shouldn't be surprised by the reaction we get for daring to stand up for our beliefs. Granted, it takes courage to stand up for an unpopular viewpoint, but we were told several times by Jesus that the world would hate us for our beliefs and association with Jesus.

That being said, whether a person is straight, gay, or has this thing for toasters, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We're all loved by Him, and despite our efforts, nothing we do will make Him love us less.

ETA: Misspelled "despite."

Nobody is "standing up for your beliefs," my friend, and there's nothing courageous about it. They're anonymously posting on a message board that they disapprove of something other people do and feel. I don't know what that is, but it's sure as heck not courage.

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Why should we be demonizing anyone? The man has made his own choice, and it should be left at that, I feel. Why is someone's sexuality such a big deal in the first place? Hey everyone, I love women! See, nobody cares.

So you don't think it is courageous at all then, right?

I think that someone's sexuality is their own business. Frankly, it would have been more courageous if he had come out in the middle of his contract.

On the Grantland podcast, Collins' argument for not doing so was that it would distract from the team. He sounded sincere about that but I'm a bleeding heart.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Those of us in here who identify ourselves as Christian really shouldn't be surprised by the reaction we get for daring to stand up for our beliefs. Granted, it takes courage to stand up for an unpopular viewpoint, but we were told several times by Jesus that the world would hate us for our beliefs and association with Jesus.

That being said, whether a person is straight, gay, or has this thing for toasters, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We're all loved by Him, and despite our efforts, nothing we do will make Him love us less.

ETA: Misspelled "despite."

Nobody is "standing up for your beliefs," my friend, and there's nothing courageous about it. They're anonymously posting on a message board that they disapprove of something other people do and feel. I don't know what that is, but it's sure as heck not courage.

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Why should we be demonizing anyone? The man has made his own choice, and it should be left at that, I feel. Why is someone's sexuality such a big deal in the first place? Hey everyone, I love women! See, nobody cares.

So you don't think it is courageous at all then, right?

Correct. Not worth the hype it's getting for sure.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Here's a nice read that I think is applicable given the recent turn this thread has taken.

Yeah, that's the article you posted earlier (with a quote) that led to the discussion of "fighting back". Then that led to basically discussing to who started it all and then things went in 50 different directions.

Christians might say the Gays started it with their parades and push for marriage. Gays might say Christians started it with their inconsistent treatment of homosexuality compared to other sins.

To me, it really doesn't matter who started it. Both sides really need to do a better job of understanding each other.

Yeah I know I posted it before, I just thought it was funny how many people were behaving exactly the way people in this thread have been behaving for the last page or so. Except that Toad guy. He's just awesome.

I embrace faith for the most part. You and I have talked about other religious topics. I'm not religious, but I mostly admire those who are, and I enjoy discussing it with them. I've read plenty of arguments here and in many other places about the position of those religions that condemn homosexuality or homosexual acts or whatever. And I've never found a single redeeming word in any of it. I think the attitudes of religions that condemn homosexuality (all of them, not just Christianity) are a disgrace. I think they're literally shaming young people to death and they don't seem to be the slightest bit repentant or sorry about it. I think they've chosen one particular "sin" and taken that cause to the public while mostly not bothering to crusade or even mention most of the thousands of other sins named in their religious texts. If you want to help me better understand where these people are coming from, I'm all ears. I don't condemn those religions entirely, but I absolutely condemn their position on this issue.

 

[shader]

Those of us in here who identify ourselves as Christian really shouldn't be surprised by the reaction we get for daring to stand up for our beliefs. Granted, it takes courage to stand up for an unpopular viewpoint, but we were told several times by Jesus that the world would hate us for our beliefs and association with Jesus.

That being said, whether a person is straight, gay, or has this thing for toasters, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We're all loved by Him, and despite our efforts, nothing we do will make Him love us less.

ETA: Misspelled "despite."

Nobody is "standing up for your beliefs," my friend, and there's nothing courageous about it. They're anonymously posting on a message board that they disapprove of something other people do and feel. I don't know what that is, but it's sure as heck not courage.

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Why should we be demonizing anyone? The man has made his own choice, and it should be left at that, I feel. Why is someone's sexuality such a big deal in the first place? Hey everyone, I love women! See, nobody cares.

So you don't think it is courageous at all then, right?

Courageous: Not deterred by danger or pain; brave

I personally don't think either side is showing much courage here. I'll reserve that for people who do things a little more important that letting the world know what their sexual preferences are, or people spouting off on facebook about the evil homosexuals.

 

[shader]

Here's a nice read that I think is applicable given the recent turn this thread has taken.

Yeah, that's the article you posted earlier (with a quote) that led to the discussion of "fighting back". Then that led to basically discussing to who started it all and then things went in 50 different directions.

Christians might say the Gays started it with their parades and push for marriage. Gays might say Christians started it with their inconsistent treatment of homosexuality compared to other sins.

To me, it really doesn't matter who started it. Both sides really need to do a better job of understanding each other.

Yeah I know I posted it before, I just thought it was funny how many people were behaving exactly the way people in this thread have been behaving for the last page or so. Except that Toad guy. He's just awesome.

I embrace faith for the most part. You and I have talked about other religious topics. I'm not religious, but I mostly admire those who are, and I enjoy discussing it with them. I've read plenty of arguments here and in many other places about homosexuality. And I've never found a single redeeming word in any of it. I think the attitude of religions that condemn homosexuality (all of them, not just Christianity) are a disgrace. I think they're literally shaming young people to death and they don't seem to be the slightest bit repentant or sorry about it. I think they've chosen one particular "sin" and taken that cause to the public while mostly not bothering to crusade or even mention most of the thousands of other sins named in their religious texts. If you want to help me better understand where these people are coming from, I'm all ears. I don't condemn those religions entirely, but I absolutely condemn their position on this issue.

If they are doing that, then they are wrong. If a religion is consistent, then there is nothing wrong with condemning homosexuality. As long, of course, as they condemn fornication, drunkenness, slander, etc.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Those of us in here who identify ourselves as Christian really shouldn't be surprised by the reaction we get for daring to stand up for our beliefs. Granted, it takes courage to stand up for an unpopular viewpoint, but we were told several times by Jesus that the world would hate us for our beliefs and association with Jesus.

That being said, whether a person is straight, gay, or has this thing for toasters, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We're all loved by Him, and despite our efforts, nothing we do will make Him love us less.

ETA: Misspelled "despite."

Not really a practicing Christian, but I agree with your post.

The problem I have from the left, though, is not that they attack Christianity every chance they get, it's that they don't go after Islam with the same ferocity when it's a thousand times worse as a religion.

Frankly, I think they don't have the balls. It's almost like the bully in the schoolyard - pick on the harmless ones because they are the easiest and won't fight back too much. You don't go after the guy who will chop your head off if you make fun of him because, after all, that would involve you putting some skin in the game.

People are voluntarily posting about their beliefs and their faith. They're bringing the conversation to the thread, not vice versa. The reason there's no comments about Muslims or other faiths here (there are a couple, but whatever) is that those people aren't posting here. If they were, I would happily point out that their faith's position on this issue is bigoted and wrong and that they really should question it.

I DO see your point about this thread. And I do believe that YOU would say something. However, I just don't see it that way from the left as a whole.

Yes, this thread got a bit sidetracked from the original post and this discussion is probably suited for another thread.

 

[Tom Skerritt]

Those of us in here who identify ourselves as Christian really shouldn't be surprised by the reaction we get for daring to stand up for our beliefs. Granted, it takes courage to stand up for an unpopular viewpoint, but we were told several times by Jesus that the world would hate us for our beliefs and association with Jesus.

That being said, whether a person is straight, gay, or has this thing for toasters, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We're all loved by Him, and despite our efforts, nothing we do will make Him love us less.

ETA: Misspelled "despite."

Nobody is "standing up for your beliefs," my friend, and there's nothing courageous about it. They're anonymously posting on a message board that they disapprove of something other people do and feel. I don't know what that is, but it's sure as heck not courage.

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearanceBy Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) – LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

“Congrats to Jason Collins,” Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that “some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet” supporting Collins. “So sad,” he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the church’s pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him “for not releasing the church name.”

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Those of us in here who identify ourselves as Christian really shouldn't be surprised by the reaction we get for daring to stand up for our beliefs. Granted, it takes courage to stand up for an unpopular viewpoint, but we were told several times by Jesus that the world would hate us for our beliefs and association with Jesus.

That being said, whether a person is straight, gay, or has this thing for toasters, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We're all loved by Him, and despite our efforts, nothing we do will make Him love us less.

ETA: Misspelled "despite."

Nobody is "standing up for your beliefs," my friend, and there's nothing courageous about it. They're anonymously posting on a message board that they disapprove of something other people do and feel. I don't know what that is, but it's sure as heck not courage.

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearanceBy Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) – LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

“Congrats to Jason Collins,” Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that “some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet” supporting Collins. “So sad,” he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the church’s pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him “for not releasing the church name.”

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

 

[mad sweeney]

I love the "silly gays should just stay in the closet so I don't have to hear about it " and the "he didn't do it when he was most vulnerable and coukdve and even though he's the first unretired pro player to come out its no big deal" and the "nobody cares (except all the people who care and whose attotudes keep gays quiet) " and the "nobody gors after all the Muslims that post in here and the inly attack Christianity even though its the overwhelimung najority religion in the US and by far the most influential" crowd. Comedy gold. Sad, very sad, but very funny.

 

[joffer]

i'm convinced now LB is shtick

 

[TobiasFunke]

Those of us in here who identify ourselves as Christian really shouldn't be surprised by the reaction we get for daring to stand up for our beliefs. Granted, it takes courage to stand up for an unpopular viewpoint, but we were told several times by Jesus that the world would hate us for our beliefs and association with Jesus.

That being said, whether a person is straight, gay, or has this thing for toasters, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We're all loved by Him, and despite our efforts, nothing we do will make Him love us less.

ETA: Misspelled "despite."

Nobody is "standing up for your beliefs," my friend, and there's nothing courageous about it. They're anonymously posting on a message board that they disapprove of something other people do and feel. I don't know what that is, but it's sure as heck not courage.

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearanceBy Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) – LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

“Congrats to Jason Collins,” Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that “some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet” supporting Collins. “So sad,” he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the church’s pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him “for not releasing the church name.”

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

Don't ever change, Larry.

 

[mad sweeney]

Those of us in here who identify ourselves as Christian really shouldn't be surprised by the reaction we get for daring to stand up for our beliefs. Granted, it takes courage to stand up for an unpopular viewpoint, but we were told several times by Jesus that the world would hate us for our beliefs and association with Jesus.

That being said, whether a person is straight, gay, or has this thing for toasters, we are all equal in the eyes of God. We're all loved by Him, and despite our efforts, nothing we do will make Him love us less.

ETA: Misspelled "despite."

Nobody is "standing up for your beliefs," my friend, and there's nothing courageous about it. They're anonymously posting on a message board that they disapprove of something other people do and feel. I don't know what that is, but it's sure as heck not courage.

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearance

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

Congrats to Jason Collins, Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet supporting Collins. So sad, he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the churchs pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him for not releasing the church name.

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

 

[mad sweeney]

Well Larry, despite your repeated claims that Christians don't care and cover other sins more often , it seems this group does care. Enough that a guy who isn't even gay got banned (because he wasn't 100% condemning it no less). Are you going to tell me they've never had a drinker, adulterer, divorcee, gambler (or more appropriate to the analogy, someone who is friends with or publicly supports one who dies those things) speak at their church? Not a chance homie.

 

[larry_boy_44]

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearance

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

Congrats to Jason Collins, Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet supporting Collins. So sad, he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the churchs pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him for not releasing the church name.

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

You are aware that "speaking at the church" = preaching, right?

The dude wasn't just going to give a motivational talk, but to preach. That means that if the church has to be comfortable letting him on their platform in front of their congregation to speak on religious matters to the church with some kind of authority. Which means they need to feel that they agree on just about everything.

That's the disconnect you aren't getting. The church was probably already stretching to justify having him speak (for publicity sake) before he made that tweet. After? When members of the congregation started complaining? They just couldn't do it anymore.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Well Larry, despite your repeated claims that Christians don't care and cover other sins more often , it seems this group does care. Enough that a guy who isn't even gay not banned. Are you going to tell me they've never had a drinker, adulterer, divorcee, gambler (or more appropriate to the analogy, someone who is friends with or publicly supports one who dies those things) speak at their church? Not a chance homie.

see my last post, i already answered this.

And although I don't know for sure, I would say that they have not had someone who was unrepentant living in those sins speak in their church knowingly. Doesn't mean someone didn't hide their sin and lie to them, but I'd be surprised if they have had someone who is unrepentant of their sin (which, btw, is the key since we are all sinners) speak in their church.

 

[mad sweeney]

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearance

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

Congrats to Jason Collins, Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet supporting Collins. So sad, he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the churchs pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him for not releasing the church name.

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

You are aware that "speaking at the church" = preaching, right?

The dude wasn't just going to give a motivational talk, but to preach. That means that if the church has to be comfortable letting him on their platform in front of their congregation to speak on religious matters to the church with some kind of authority. Which means they need to feel that they agree on just about everything.

That's the disconnect you aren't getting. The church was probably already stretching to justify having him speak (for publicity sake) before he made that tweet. After? When members of the congregation started complaining? They just couldn't do it anymore.

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

 

[mad sweeney]

Well Larry, despite your repeated claims that Christians don't care and cover other sins more often , it seems this group does care. Enough that a guy who isn't even gay not banned. Are you going to tell me they've never had a drinker, adulterer, divorcee, gambler (or more appropriate to the analogy, someone who is friends with or publicly supports one who dies those things) speak at their church? Not a chance homie.

see my last post, i already answered this. And although I don't know for sure, I would say that they have not had someone who was unrepentant living in those sins speak in their church knowingly. Doesn't mean someone didn't hide their sin and lie to them, but I'd be surprised if they have had someone who is unrepentant of their sin (which, btw, is the key since we are all sinners) speak in their church.

Giant

 

[larry_boy_44]

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearance

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

Congrats to Jason Collins, Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet supporting Collins. So sad, he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the churchs pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him for not releasing the church name.

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

You are aware that "speaking at the church" = preaching, right?

The dude wasn't just going to give a motivational talk, but to preach. That means that if the church has to be comfortable letting him on their platform in front of their congregation to speak on religious matters to the church with some kind of authority. Which means they need to feel that they agree on just about everything.

That's the disconnect you aren't getting. The church was probably already stretching to justify having him speak (for publicity sake) before he made that tweet. After? When members of the congregation started complaining? They just couldn't do it anymore.

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

No, its the same. Having an idea what church it is (its in my area), I would say that if they had a speaker coming who a few weeks before he spoke congratulated someone via twitter for having a bunch of premarital sex or stealing a bunch of money, they'd cancel his event, too.

The thing is, you don't have any idea what they'd do. You know nothing about them other than them cancelling Butler's speaking engagement and you just automatically assume the absolute worst about them. Why? I mean, they're a church, outside of a small number of exceptions that more prove my point, churches do good for their communities. So why are you assuming the worst about this one?

 

[Kal El]

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearance

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

Congrats to Jason Collins, Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet supporting Collins. So sad, he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the churchs pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him for not releasing the church name.

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

You are aware that "speaking at the church" = preaching, right?

The dude wasn't just going to give a motivational talk, but to preach. That means that if the church has to be comfortable letting him on their platform in front of their congregation to speak on religious matters to the church with some kind of authority. Which means they need to feel that they agree on just about everything.

That's the disconnect you aren't getting. The church was probably already stretching to justify having him speak (for publicity sake) before he made that tweet. After? When members of the congregation started complaining? They just couldn't do it anymore.

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

 

[mad sweeney]

How about addressing your gigantic hyperbole above where you claimed this church was being unfairly blasted for not being 100% congratulatory. That phrase doesn't apply at even a subatomic level, but yet you use it as 'proof' that poor Christians are persecuted.

 

[mad sweeney]

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearance

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

Congrats to Jason Collins, Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet supporting Collins. So sad, he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the churchs pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him for not releasing the church name.

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

You are aware that "speaking at the church" = preaching, right?

The dude wasn't just going to give a motivational talk, but to preach. That means that if the church has to be comfortable letting him on their platform in front of their congregation to speak on religious matters to the church with some kind of authority. Which means they need to feel that they agree on just about everything.

That's the disconnect you aren't getting. The church was probably already stretching to justify having him speak (for publicity sake) before he made that tweet. After? When members of the congregation started complaining? They just couldn't do it anymore.

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

That's the whole point. That this particular sin is the one that gets the most vehement and volumous rejection as a sin when the other supposedly equal sins are shrugged off

 

[Kal El]

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearance

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

Congrats to Jason Collins, Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet supporting Collins. So sad, he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the churchs pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him for not releasing the church name.

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

You are aware that "speaking at the church" = preaching, right?

The dude wasn't just going to give a motivational talk, but to preach. That means that if the church has to be comfortable letting him on their platform in front of their congregation to speak on religious matters to the church with some kind of authority. Which means they need to feel that they agree on just about everything.

That's the disconnect you aren't getting. The church was probably already stretching to justify having him speak (for publicity sake) before he made that tweet. After? When members of the congregation started complaining? They just couldn't do it anymore.

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

That's the whole point. That this particular sin is the one that gets the most vehement and volumous rejection as a sin when the other supposedly equal sins are shrugged off

I can't speak for other churches, since I don't attend, but at the church I go to here in FL, everyone's welcome, no matter what. We're all broken people, but if we ask for it, we'll be forgiven for any wrongs we've done. We're not perfect, but the best we can do is love people, which is what we try to do.

 

[matuski]

Gotta love the Christians painting themselves in the role of victim/persecuted.

 

[Yenrub]

Well Larry, despite your repeated claims that Christians don't care and cover other sins more often , it seems this group does care. Enough that a guy who isn't even gay not banned. Are you going to tell me they've never had a drinker, adulterer, divorcee, gambler (or more appropriate to the analogy, someone who is friends with or publicly supports one who dies those things) speak at their church? Not a chance homie.

see my last post, i already answered this.

And although I don't know for sure, I would say that they have not had someone who was unrepentant living in those sins speak in their church knowingly. Doesn't mean someone didn't hide their sin and lie to them, but I'd be surprised if they have had someone who is unrepentant of their sin (which, btw, is the key since we are all sinners) speak in their church.

What was Butler's sin?

 

[larry_boy_44]

By "real courage" do you mean coming out as gay after your career is over and you need something to keep it going? To me, real courage would have been coming out when you're just getting into the league, or even at the height of your career. He's got nothing to lose now, so where is the "courage"?

The "courage" is because he's daring to tell the truth about his sexuality, because all of those bible-thumping backwoods Christians will hate him for it, so we should show that we're more civilized than those rednecks, and accept him for who he is. At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the media.

Really?

Where exactly have you seen that reaction other than from, say, Westbero Baptist?

All I've seen is an endless stream of congratulations and an instant demonizing of anyone who dares say anything that isn't 100% congratulatory.

Ex-NFL player's support for gay NBA player apparently costs him church appearance

By Dan Merica, CNN

Washington (CNN) LeRoy Butler, a former safety for the Green Bay Packers, is one of many professional athletes to tweet support for Jason Collins, the NBA player who came out as gay this week.

Congrats to Jason Collins, Butler tweeted April 29, the day Collins came out in a Sports Illustrated cover story.

But Butler says the four-word tweet cost him a speaking appearance at a Wisconsin church.

He was scheduled to speak at the church (whose name he has not revealed) about bullying and his new book, "The LeRoy Butler Story: From Wheelchair to the Lambeau Leap."

However, Butler announced the trouble in a series of tweets on Wednesday and Thursday.

Butler later tweeted that some parents went to the church and complained about my tweet supporting Collins. So sad, he wrote on the social networking site.

In an interview with the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Butler said he pointed out to the churchs pastor that the apparent attempt to cancel his speech was an example of the type of bullying he planned to discuss with the congregation.

Butler recently tweeted that the church apologized for the incident and thanked him for not releasing the church name.

Butler played 11 years, from 1990 to 2001, with the Packers and helped them win a Super Bowl in 1997. He was a four-time All-Pro selection, the highest honor for a year of work in the NFL, and is credited with inventing the Lambeau Leap, the iconic touchdown celebration in which a Packer leaps into the Lambeau Field stands to celebrate with fans.

Since retiring, Butler has been active in the community, and his Facebook page chronicles appearances and speeches he has given to churches in the area.

hey look!

Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this.

Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

You are aware that "speaking at the church" = preaching, right?

The dude wasn't just going to give a motivational talk, but to preach. That means that if the church has to be comfortable letting him on their platform in front of their congregation to speak on religious matters to the church with some kind of authority. Which means they need to feel that they agree on just about everything.

That's the disconnect you aren't getting. The church was probably already stretching to justify having him speak (for publicity sake) before he made that tweet. After? When members of the congregation started complaining? They just couldn't do it anymore.

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

Letting someone in the door is not the same as letting someone speak from your pulpit.

surely you don't think those are the same thing.

 

[larry_boy_44]

hey look! Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this. Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

You are aware that "speaking at the church" = preaching, right? The dude wasn't just going to give a motivational talk, but to preach. That means that if the church has to be comfortable letting him on their platform in front of their congregation to speak on religious matters to the church with some kind of authority. Which means they need to feel that they agree on just about everything. That's the disconnect you aren't getting. The church was probably already stretching to justify having him speak (for publicity sake) before he made that tweet. After? When members of the congregation started complaining? They just couldn't do it anymore.

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

That's the whole point. That this particular sin is the one that gets the most vehement and volumous rejection as a sin when the other supposedly equal sins are shrugged off

I can't speak for other churches, since I don't attend, but at the church I go to here in FL, everyone's welcome, no matter what. We're all broken people, but if we ask for it, we'll be forgiven for any wrongs we've done. We're not perfect, but the best we can do is love people, which is what we try to do.

That's how my church is, too.

But we aren't talking about the church telling LeRoy Butler whether he is allowed to attend a service or not. We're talking about the church paying him $8,500 to be the speaker for a service they are holding. Totally different things.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Well Larry, despite your repeated claims that Christians don't care and cover other sins more often , it seems this group does care. Enough that a guy who isn't even gay not banned. Are you going to tell me they've never had a drinker, adulterer, divorcee, gambler (or more appropriate to the analogy, someone who is friends with or publicly supports one who dies those things) speak at their church? Not a chance homie.

see my last post, i already answered this.

And although I don't know for sure, I would say that they have not had someone who was unrepentant living in those sins speak in their church knowingly. Doesn't mean someone didn't hide their sin and lie to them, but I'd be surprised if they have had someone who is unrepentant of their sin (which, btw, is the key since we are all sinners) speak in their church.

What was Butler's sin?

its not a sin so much as they feel that he is not theologically compatible with the church as, from his tweet, it sure sounds like he doesn't believe that homosexuality is a sin (which they would view as him denying the Bible as the source of our doctrines).

Remember, he was to be speaking in a service. Its not like he was having an autograph signing at the church or something.

 

[Kal El]

Letting someone in the door is not the same as letting someone speak from your pulpit.

surely you don't think those are the same thing.

Yes, I know, but the concept can still apply to speakers. How often do we hear of ministers being caught in all sorts of scandals, and those are just the ones we know of.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Does a person under privilege of practicing a type of religion have the right to speak out against Collins simply because it is unacceptable according to their interpretation or however it is written in the bible about homosexuality?

You all never quit, just gang up on whoever doesn't agree with your feelings which is exactly what you all arguing about ironically with LB. Keep fighting LB, I disagree with a lot of your personal beliefs as you do mine undoubtedly but I have a respect level/line for you that I don't cross. I think you ask some fair questions but it falls mostly on deaf ears.

 

[mad sweeney]

hey look! Its a church being demonized for not being completely congratulatory about this. Isn't that exactly what I said was happening? Anyone who dares not be like "YAY!! JASON COLLINS IS MY HERO!!" is made to look awful.

They weren't even partially congratulatory. They were the exact opposite. The epitomized the exact reason why gays have to scream and fight to be heard and why they keep quiet because people so condemn their lifestyle that they'll be excluded from normal life.

You are aware that "speaking at the church" = preaching, right? The dude wasn't just going to give a motivational talk, but to preach. That means that if the church has to be comfortable letting him on their platform in front of their congregation to speak on religious matters to the church with some kind of authority. Which means they need to feel that they agree on just about everything. That's the disconnect you aren't getting. The church was probably already stretching to justify having him speak (for publicity sake) before he made that tweet. After? When members of the congregation started complaining? They just couldn't do it anymore.

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

That's the whole point. That this particular sin is the one that gets the most vehement and volumous rejection as a sin when the other supposedly equal sins are shrugged off

I can't speak for other churches, since I don't attend, but at the church I go to here in FL, everyone's welcome, no matter what. We're all broken people, but if we ask for it, we'll be forgiven for any wrongs we've done. We're not perfect, but the best we can do is love people, which is what we try to do.

That's how my church is, too. But we aren't talking about the church telling LeRoy Butler whether he is allowed to attend a service or not. We're talking about the church paying him $8,500 to be the speaker for a service they are holding. Totally different things.

You mean to preach, right? The congregation didn't want him because he supported a gay. The brass agreed with them enough to cancel it. That's the opposite if what you're saying Christians are like.

 

[larry_boy_44]

Letting someone in the door is not the same as letting someone speak from your pulpit.

surely you don't think those are the same thing.

Yes, I know, but the concept can still apply to speakers. How often do we hear of ministers being caught in all sorts of scandals, and those are just the ones we know of.

I agree it applies on some level. But they didn't tell Butler he couldn't attend or be at their church's functions. Only that they felt he wasn't a person they felt comfortable speaking from their pulpit at this time.

The key thing is being repentant. But that doesn't directly apply to Butler as the issue isn't whether he has repented or not, but whether he believes that something the church sees as Biblical direction is true or not. They believe the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, from Butler's tweet they believe he does not think that. So they aren't comfortable with someone who has that different of an understanding of what the Bible says than they do speaking.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Funny, if Butler denounced Collins and told him how morally corrupt he was, the church would have greeted him with open arms and a fistful of cash. Religion

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I can't speak for other churches, since I don't attend, but at the church I go to here in FL, everyone's welcome, no matter what. We're all broken people, but if we ask for it, we'll be forgiven for any wrongs we've done. We're not perfect, but the best we can do is love people, which is what we try to do.

That's how my church is, too.

But we aren't talking about the church telling LeRoy Butler whether he is allowed to attend a service or not. We're talking about the church paying him $8,500 to be the speaker for a service they are holding. Totally different things.

And I'm going to ask you this. Put this other stuff to the side with the others in here. Do you think that when LeRoy Butler is booted form a speaking engagement, what does that say about the church? They can exercise their right but then they go further and humiliate him with the whole pray for forgiveness. You thought enough of him to pay him almost $10k to come in speak. I think that church is going to miss out on a great night where they might have learned something and now they look like fools. Is that the message that Christians want to send out there to a society that is already kind of skeptical of anything from Christian faith based organizations?

Thanks LB

 

[larry_boy_44]

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

That's the whole point. That this particular sin is the one that gets the most vehement and volumous rejection as a sin when the other supposedly equal sins are shrugged off

I can't speak for other churches, since I don't attend, but at the church I go to here in FL, everyone's welcome, no matter what. We're all broken people, but if we ask for it, we'll be forgiven for any wrongs we've done. We're not perfect, but the best we can do is love people, which is what we try to do.

That's how my church is, too. But we aren't talking about the church telling LeRoy Butler whether he is allowed to attend a service or not. We're talking about the church paying him $8,500 to be the speaker for a service they are holding. Totally different things.

You mean to preach, right? The congregation didn't want him because he supported a gay. The brass agreed with them enough to cancel it. That's the opposite if what you're saying Christians are like.

I realize that this isn't apparent to you because you aren't a Christian, but preaching is a BIG DEAL. The assumption is when my pastor stands behind that pulpit he is giving us a message inspired by God Himself. Same with any other preacher (including myself).

To let someone behind your pulpit when you KNOW they don't believe as you do is just something that church's don't do. So, yes, when Butler did something that shows that his belief's do not line up with the church's beliefs, they chose not to have him speak.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Funny, if Butler denounced Collins and told him how morally corrupt he was, the church would have greeted him with open arms and a fistful of cash. Religion

Not all churches would do that CC. It's a great post, you obviously have the Christopher Hitchens approach down to a science and I'm a fan too of his work but I also like to weigh the other side as well.

Let me ask you CC, if religion were to evaporate or one day there was 100% proof that when we die we go nowhere, what do you think some of these folks would do if they didn't have religion? For some of these folks, it's all that keeps them form picking up a weapon and start shooting. Some of these folks have had horrible lives, they live for the afterworld, these people would lose their minds. So while I agree with the general hostility you have towards religion it also serves a major purpose and in many ways being able to realize that everyone else might have the wool being pulled over their eyes meanwhile I can still live my life free of most religious things...it's good internet chow but do you really ant to turn everyone into an atheist? I'm afraid we would have anarchy and a lot of people would get hurt.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

That's the whole point. That this particular sin is the one that gets the most vehement and volumous rejection as a sin when the other supposedly equal sins are shrugged off

I can't speak for other churches, since I don't attend, but at the church I go to here in FL, everyone's welcome, no matter what. We're all broken people, but if we ask for it, we'll be forgiven for any wrongs we've done. We're not perfect, but the best we can do is love people, which is what we try to do.

That's how my church is, too. But we aren't talking about the church telling LeRoy Butler whether he is allowed to attend a service or not. We're talking about the church paying him $8,500 to be the speaker for a service they are holding. Totally different things.

You mean to preach, right? The congregation didn't want him because he supported a gay. The brass agreed with them enough to cancel it. That's the opposite if what you're saying Christians are like.

I realize that this isn't apparent to you because you aren't a Christian, but preaching is a BIG DEAL. The assumption is when my pastor stands behind that pulpit he is giving us a message inspired by God Himself. Same with any other preacher (including myself).

To let someone behind your pulpit when you KNOW they don't believe as you do is just something that church's don't do. So, yes, when Butler did something that shows that his belief's do not line up with the church's beliefs, they chose not to have him speak.

So you believe god speaks to people?

 

[larry_boy_44]

Funny, if Butler denounced Collins and told him how morally corrupt he was, the church would have greeted him with open arms and a fistful of cash. Religion

No, it depends on how he did something like that. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be fans of him tweeting "Jason Collins is morally corrupt and an awful human being, I'm looking forward to the day he burns in hell" because that's, quite frankly awful.

But if he would have said something like "@JasonCollins I hope you make it through whatever journey life has for you, and in the end find the love we all seek in the arms of the Father above. I disagree with your life choice, but I love and will be praying for you.", yeah, they'd probably have loved that.

 

[timschochet]

This thread is illuminating in that it demonstrates the dilemma that religious Christianity finds itself in these days. Christianity has, historically, been the basis for much of American morality. Yet here we are with a subject matter in which the majority of Americans increasingly have formed an opinion, based on morality, which is opposite of what Christianity teaches.

Most of us who are in favor of gay rights have reached that conclusion based on common sense and reason: we know gays are equal to everyone else and thus should have the same rights as everyone else, particularly the right to marry each other. Yet religious Christians are taught to ignore their common sense if it conflicts with what is explicitly written in Scripture. How they resolve this contradiction may ultimately have an impact on the influence of Christianity for the future.

 

[TobiasFunke]

You guys arguing with Larry on this one are ignoring the far more basic and hilarious point that he thinks the article "demonizes" a church. Even though the article doesn't name the church, or even its denomination, or include a single word describing the church that could possibly be described as remotely negative, let alone "demonizing."

When that is his starting point, how can you possibly engage him in serious discussion? You're not going to get anywhere. All you can do is laugh.

 

[Please See Mine]

no way Dan Merica is a real name.

Also love the MaxThreshold/Toad interplay.

 

[SWC]

Funny, if Butler denounced Collins and told him how morally corrupt he was, the church would have greeted him with open arms and a fistful of cash. Religion

Not all churches would do that CC. It's a great post, you obviously have the Christopher Hitchens approach down to a science and I'm a fan too of his work but I also like to weigh the other side as well.

Let me ask you CC, if religion were to evaporate or one day there was 100% proof that when we die we go nowhere, what do you think some of these folks would do if they didn't have religion? For some of these folks, it's all that keeps them form picking up a weapon and start shooting. Some of these folks have had horrible lives, they live for the afterworld, these people would lose their minds. So while I agree with the general hostility you have towards religion it also serves a major purpose and in many ways being able to realize that everyone else might have the wool being pulled over their eyes meanwhile I can still live my life free of most religious things...it's good internet chow but do you really ant to turn everyone into an atheist? I'm afraid we would have anarchy and a lot of people would get hurt.

they would probably go yell at people at walgreens just kidding brohan i agree with you that we should not be bigots to gay people so you i are on the same side on this one brohan so lets take it to the tolerance bank

 

[timschochet]

You guys arguing with Larry on this one are ignoring the far more basic and hilarious point that he thinks the article "demonizes" a church. Even though the article doesn't name the church, or even its denomination, or include a single word describing the church that could possibly be described as remotely negative, let alone "demonizing."

When that is his starting point, how can you possibly engage him in serious discussion? You're not going to get anywhere. All you can do is laugh.

There are, apparently, millions of Americans who share Larry's essential views on this issue.

 

[larry_boy_44]

I can't speak for other churches, since I don't attend, but at the church I go to here in FL, everyone's welcome, no matter what. We're all broken people, but if we ask for it, we'll be forgiven for any wrongs we've done. We're not perfect, but the best we can do is love people, which is what we try to do.

That's how my church is, too.

But we aren't talking about the church telling LeRoy Butler whether he is allowed to attend a service or not. We're talking about the church paying him $8,500 to be the speaker for a service they are holding. Totally different things.

And I'm going to ask you this. Put this other stuff to the side with the others in here. Do you think that when LeRoy Butler is booted form a speaking engagement, what does that say about the church? They can exercise their right but then they go further and humiliate him with the whole pray for forgiveness. You thought enough of him to pay him almost $10k to come in speak. I think that church is going to miss out on a great night where they might have learned something and now they look like fools. Is that the message that Christians want to send out there to a society that is already kind of skeptical of anything from Christian faith based organizations?

Thanks LB

Here's the thing, we don't know what the church actually said. Did they actually send Butler that? How exactly did the church say it?

Butler didn't even name the church (neither did any of the news media) and the church hasn't come forward. All we know is Butler's angry tweets, that's it.

If they actually said that, I would say that they were wrong in saying that and should have done it in a better way.

But I understand why they wouldn't want him to speak. Like I said, I doubt my church would let him speak in the first place (at least at a church service) because of his beliefs and they likely differ from ours. I even understand how this issue could change things.

But if Butler's portrayal of the events is accurate, I would say the church should have told him differently and responded to him differently.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

I have no desire to get involved in this debate, just want to state that the world would be a better place if there were more people like Tasker in it. I would have difficulty arguing with such narrow minded people without losing my cool, but Steve is a class act all around.

I honestly can't get through one of Larry's posts.

Seems like it'd be awesome to be out and have a twin brother who is straight, you can really allocate potential secks partners efficiently. "Hey, thanks...but go see my brother..."

 

[mad sweeney]

Letting someone in the door is not the same as letting someone speak from your pulpit. surely you don't think those are the same thing.

Yes, I know, but the concept can still apply to speakers. How often do we hear of ministers being caught in all sorts of scandals, and those are just the ones we know of.

I agree it applies on some level. But they didn't tell Butler he couldn't attend or be at their church's functions. Only that they felt he wasn't a person they felt comfortable speaking from their pulpit at this time. The key thing is being repentant. But that doesn't directly apply to Butler as the issue isn't whether he has repented or not, but whether he believes that something the church sees as Biblical direction is true or not. They believe the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, from Butler's tweet they believe he does not think that. So they aren't comfortable with someone who has that different of an understanding of what the Bible says than they do speaking.

You mean that specific sin, not general Biblical principals. It's an unalterable fact, since we are born sinners, that the congregation is spoken to by repeat and unrepentant sinners and those sinners have friends that have supported them in public. But it's this sin that gets you kicked out.

 

[Kal El]

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

That's the whole point. That this particular sin is the one that gets the most vehement and volumous rejection as a sin when the other supposedly equal sins are shrugged off

I can't speak for other churches, since I don't attend, but at the church I go to here in FL, everyone's welcome, no matter what. We're all broken people, but if we ask for it, we'll be forgiven for any wrongs we've done. We're not perfect, but the best we can do is love people, which is what we try to do.

That's how my church is, too. But we aren't talking about the church telling LeRoy Butler whether he is allowed to attend a service or not. We're talking about the church paying him $8,500 to be the speaker for a service they are holding. Totally different things.

You mean to preach, right? The congregation didn't want him because he supported a gay. The brass agreed with them enough to cancel it. That's the opposite if what you're saying Christians are like.

I realize that this isn't apparent to you because you aren't a Christian, but preaching is a BIG DEAL. The assumption is when my pastor stands behind that pulpit he is giving us a message inspired by God Himself. Same with any other preacher (including myself).

To let someone behind your pulpit when you KNOW they don't believe as you do is just something that church's don't do. So, yes, when Butler did something that shows that his belief's do not line up with the church's beliefs, they chose not to have him speak.

So you believe god speaks to people?

I believe He does.

 

[SWC]

This thread is illuminating in that it demonstrates the dilemma that religious Christianity finds itself in these days. Christianity has, historically, been the basis for much of American morality. Yet here we are with a subject matter in which the majority of Americans increasingly have formed an opinion, based on morality, which is opposite of what Christianity teaches.

Most of us who are in favor of gay rights have reached that conclusion based on common sense and reason: we know gays are equal to everyone else and thus should have the same rights as everyone else, particularly the right to marry each other. Yet religious Christians are taught to ignore their common sense if it conflicts with what is explicitly written in Scripture. How they resolve this contradiction may ultimately have an impact on the influence of Christianity for the future.

tim no it is not that religious christians are taught to hate gays or ignore common sense morality in fact i have never heard my priests even mention the topic even if rome has some stance on it what i think happens more often than not is that there are small numbers of folks like larry apparently who go to websites that pull small sections out of the bible and twist them around then get real mouthy about it on line and everywhere else but in the end i think that most mainstream christians see that we have a pretty bad batting average when it comes to using the bible to tgry and condemn certain groups and do not believe that the good book should be used that way because the word is not hate the word is love but hey there are folks like westboro baptist church out there and guys like larry boy around here so what do i know anyways but i think they are a minority not a majority bam brohans

 

[larry_boy_44]

I get it Lsrry. Seems like those Christians there in the congregation cared a lot more than you're telling us they do. Plus how many other sinners do they exclude? My guess is its inverse to the number they exclude for not condemning this one sin.

If churches kept out everyone who sinned, there'd be no churches.

That's the whole point. That this particular sin is the one that gets the most vehement and volumous rejection as a sin when the other supposedly equal sins are shrugged off

I can't speak for other churches, since I don't attend, but at the church I go to here in FL, everyone's welcome, no matter what. We're all broken people, but if we ask for it, we'll be forgiven for any wrongs we've done. We're not perfect, but the best we can do is love people, which is what we try to do.

That's how my church is, too. But we aren't talking about the church telling LeRoy Butler whether he is allowed to attend a service or not. We're talking about the church paying him $8,500 to be the speaker for a service they are holding. Totally different things.

You mean to preach, right? The congregation didn't want him because he supported a gay. The brass agreed with them enough to cancel it. That's the opposite if what you're saying Christians are like.

I realize that this isn't apparent to you because you aren't a Christian, but preaching is a BIG DEAL. The assumption is when my pastor stands behind that pulpit he is giving us a message inspired by God Himself. Same with any other preacher (including myself).

To let someone behind your pulpit when you KNOW they don't believe as you do is just something that church's don't do. So, yes, when Butler did something that shows that his belief's do not line up with the church's beliefs, they chose not to have him speak.

So you believe god speaks to people?

No doubt about it.