ragincajun
Footballguy
Another option in all seriousness is to call some oil rig companies. They can dig holes pretty fast however I am not sure of the logisitics of shipping equipment etc.
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Thailand cave rescue (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter jamny
- Start date
ragincajun
Footballguy
Nothing against the Thai seals but I would be curious if the US Seals can help in anyway.
Doug B
Footballguy
I wonder if it is possible to implement a two-pronged approach to further reducing the amount of rainwater entering the cave. Water is already pumped out, but rainfall seems to be pretty much replacing the pump-out at a steady pace. Therefore, might the following help:
a) Shelter the cave opening from rainfall. Thinking circus-tent or Metrodome-roof technology. Along with that ...
b) Build a temporary berm around the cave entrance so that rainfall that runs off the overhead shelter does not run back into the cave. The water pumps would drain to an area outside of the berm so that water pumped out stays out.
The idea would be to give the water pumps enough time to lower the water level back to where it was two weeks ago when the team first entered the cave. This would only have to be maintained long enough for the water pumps to get ahead of the rain and then for the team to make their exit.
A shallow canal ( to a natural stream, say) could also be dug outside of the berm to give pumped-out water a channel down which to flow away. That would depend on the local topography.
I am also unsure of how large a shelter would be needed to effectively block rainwater from entering the cave. Something big enough to cover, say, a basketball court? Or more like something that would cover a track-and-field stadium (much larger than a football field)? Or even bigger? Multiple coverings could be used ... even if there is seepage between coverings, it might be sufficient to substantially slow the cave's intake of water if a complete rainfall shield is not feasible.
a) Shelter the cave opening from rainfall. Thinking circus-tent or Metrodome-roof technology. Along with that ...
b) Build a temporary berm around the cave entrance so that rainfall that runs off the overhead shelter does not run back into the cave. The water pumps would drain to an area outside of the berm so that water pumped out stays out.
The idea would be to give the water pumps enough time to lower the water level back to where it was two weeks ago when the team first entered the cave. This would only have to be maintained long enough for the water pumps to get ahead of the rain and then for the team to make their exit.
A shallow canal ( to a natural stream, say) could also be dug outside of the berm to give pumped-out water a channel down which to flow away. That would depend on the local topography.
I am also unsure of how large a shelter would be needed to effectively block rainwater from entering the cave. Something big enough to cover, say, a basketball court? Or more like something that would cover a track-and-field stadium (much larger than a football field)? Or even bigger? Multiple coverings could be used ... even if there is seepage between coverings, it might be sufficient to substantially slow the cave's intake of water if a complete rainfall shield is not feasible.
Doug B
Footballguy
There are many dive experts on the scene aside from the Thai Seals. Not sure if any US Seals are there or not, but if so ... fresh divers are always welcome, I am sure.
I wonder how many "sorties" each diver is making, and how often? From the cave entrance to the soccer team and back is an 11-hour round trip of swimming, climbing, and crawling.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Sounds like there are lots of other inlets for water...I don't think blocking off the entrance is going to help.
Minor thing, but I wonder if they can bring rigid storm sewer drain pipe into the tighter sections to make those at least more regularly shaped to swim through. Probably too many bends and tight corners for that to be feasible.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I've heard that Stamper Oil would be the people to go to on this.....those guys have pretty much drilled in every environment on the planet.
El Floppo
Footballguy
They were chased further into the cave by rising water and trapped. They walked, didn't swim.
Doug B
Footballguy
I've not read or heard anyone say this ... but boring through that much rock into an open underground cavity always risks collapsing that cavity. I believe they are trying like heck to avoid having to drill anything. Might be a desperation tactic down the road, though.
Doug B
Footballguy
Yeah, there are many topographical considerations. Ground seepage, water table issues, etc. Maybe even if there are many inlets, blocking off or covering some of the bigger ones? Even if the water coming in could be reduced 50%, that might help the water pumps get ahead.
Again, though, I don't know the layout of the ground and water over there.
El Floppo
Footballguy
An article posted up thread meantioned that the kids have been hearing outside noises- dogs barking, roosters. I wonder if they or any of the rescuers have explored further into the cave they're trapped in to see if there are any viable outlets (viable in terms of teams working from inside and outside to make something work- I doubt there's an easy exit these kids somehow missed)
El Floppo
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
There are thought to be some natural vertical "shafts" in the rock. Think "cracks" where I wrote "shafts" ... there won't be nice, neat holes. There's been some surveying to see if they can find anything big enough to be of use.
dgreen
Footballguy
Yeah, that's all I can think of too. Don't mining companies add support beams to keep things from collapsing? Or maybe dig deeper in the ditches where there is already water? No idea how, but that could be a way to lower the water.
belljr
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
yeah- figured cracks/fissures/small vents- big enough to carry sound, not big enough (and straight shot enough) to carry light. I had heard they were surveying from the outside- my original questions was- I wonder if there's been any surveying from the inside? leave a team of engineers/seals in there a couple days and let them do some really searching. the kids and coach would've been doing it in the dark up until now- no way they're finding anything unless it's completely obvious.
Doug B
Footballguy
Thinking about it some more:
Depending on the local topography, it might be sufficient to build a properly-configured berm around the cave entrance and whatever major inlets are identified. No overhead rain shelters required. This idea really only make sense if there's a lot of local high land that is shunting water into the cave, though. If local conditions were such, blocking that shunting could help the pumps get ahead.
...
It seems apparent that saving these boys will require a skin-of-the-teeth procedure. If the kids dive and climb out, they won't turn these kids into dive experts -- they'll get the kids just barely good enough to get out. If they lower the cave's water level, they won't drain it bone dry -- they'll get it down to about where it was a few weeks back. If they dig a shaft down to the cavity, it won't be big enough for a comfy elevator ride -- it will be an 18-inch borehole just big enough for a person-holding capsule to shimmy through.
what an odd suggestion.Not sure what they could do differently. People can, and have, gotten to the kids. That is not the problem. The problem is getting kids who cant swim well to be able to traverse the cave system under water - where in parts it was too narrow for the divers to wear their tanks...
I believe they have a plan in place to help the kids along, when they are healthy - but there is still a substantial risk in areas where the kids will have to squeeze through solo. I imagine the solution will include using a guide rope in those areas, and maybe even pulling the kids through - but its still risky, and not any safer with other divers.
PS - and there are Australian rescue divers on site, if it makes you feel better
El Floppo
Footballguy
fwiw- if you look at video of the other rescuers surveying the area on top of the caves- it's cliffy, mountainous AND jungle. I haven't seen any clear and easy areas they could set up berms and do the work you're talking about. but hopefully those exist.
in chile- granted, totally different terrain- they bored down and also created a custom elevator for the survivors to lift them up. if it goes this route, I'd assume something similar here.
I have a feeling their best bet will be leading the kids back through the cave somehow... they just have to create as fool-proof a method as possible to minimize any chance of losing anybody in that type of rescue.
El Floppo
Footballguy
those are the areas where I was thinking of using a rigid storm sewer pipe/cason type of setup- minimize the chance of the kids or guide-system getting caught up on anything.
Not sure what they could do differently. People can, and have, gotten to the kids. That is not the problem. The problem is getting kids who cant swim well to be able to traverse the cave system under water - where in parts it was too narrow for the divers to wear their tanks...
I believe they have a plan in place to help the kids along, when they are healthy - but there is still a substantial risk in areas where the kids will have to squeeze through solo. I imagine the solution will include using a guide rope in those areas, and maybe even pulling the kids through - but its still risky, and not any safer with other divers.
PS - and there are Australian rescue divers on site, if it makes you feel better
but again, it's likely not feasible to get those kind ofthings that far into the caves.
Doug B
Footballguy
Temporary berms can be built with sandbags or similar materials if necessary. Much more labor-intensive without heavy machinery dong the berm-building, but possible.
You're absolutely right that considerations of terrain and water flow will constrain any potential rain-blocking efforts. Whether those constraints can be worked within or somehow overcome, we shall see.
El Floppo
Footballguy
ragincajun
Footballguy
It was not a knock on the Thai. Doug explained it More eloquently than I could. More as a relief team that could assist with manpower due to their training.
Not sure what they could do differently. People can, and have, gotten to the kids. That is not the problem. The problem is getting kids who cant swim well to be able to traverse the cave system under water - where in parts it was too narrow for the divers to wear their tanks...
I believe they have a plan in place to help the kids along, when they are healthy - but there is still a substantial risk in areas where the kids will have to squeeze through solo. I imagine the solution will include using a guide rope in those areas, and maybe even pulling the kids through - but its still risky, and not any safer with other divers.
PS - and there are Australian rescue divers on site, if it makes you feel better
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El Floppo
Footballguy
yeah- I have a sense of differnt types of berms. take a look at images of what the people are dealing with on the outside/top of the cave.. that's why I'm not high on this method doing enough. they'd have to strip the entire jungle and foliage to expose all the possible inlets- otherwise, they are sure to miss most of them. seems like better resources to be used elsewhere... even though I like the idea- just doesn't seem feasible.
ragincajun
Footballguy
I think ground penetrating radar would be the best bet to see if there are any additional routes that could be taken.
belljr
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
In advance of the coming heavy rain, they have already blocked two inlets (scroll to bottom of article).
I am hoping two things:
a) that the two inlets blocked make a measurable difference, and thus helps to improve the water-pumping efforts, and
b) that more inlets can be found, and that blocking them can help enough to give the pumps a fighting chance.
comfortably numb
Footballguy
Hope all goes well
This has been an amaizng story that still seems to have a very high percentage of things going catastrophically wrong.
This has been an amaizng story that still seems to have a very high percentage of things going catastrophically wrong.
ragincajun
Footballguy
Water berms can possibly be setup much faster if they can get water into the berms once stationed.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Wow I haven't paid enough attention to this story but this is terrifying. The stress levels must be off the charts.
ragincajun
Footballguy
Let me clarify that thy make water bladders that are used as berms. They work great but filling them may pose an issue.
Ned
Footballguy
Nick Vermeil
Footballguy
What about some sort of air tight pod they can put each kid in and drag them out?
Johnny Rock
Footballguy
Even very experienced divers with rescue training experience and multiple zero-visibility dives say they wouldn’t make those dives. Now imagine these age 11-16 year old kids who cannot even swim.
I don’t see them swimming out. Too many risks. Panic attacks, vertigo, nausea, free diving in spots without a tank, length of the route, etc.
I don’t see them swimming out. Too many risks. Panic attacks, vertigo, nausea, free diving in spots without a tank, length of the route, etc.
Redwes25
Footballguy
From what I have heard/seen it gets so tight that I am not sure that is realistic as it is very hard to fit through at all let alone the added space for a pod.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
Nick Vermeil
Footballguy
Certainly a secondary concern at this point, but this coach is screwed if they get out of there.
Doug B
Footballguy
Someone on another board mentioned the NASA-developed Personal Rescue Enclosure (PRE). They were developed to use in the event that shuttle crew members ever needed to be evacuated from one shuttle to another in space (remember, shuttle crew did not wear spacesuits). I believe the PRE never got out of the prototype and testing stage, and I don't believe they were ever actually deployed on a shuttle mission.
The PREs held roughly one hour of oxygen for one adult. The boys trapped in the cave would probably need, bare minimum, six hours of oxygen to make the transit. Also, the PRE shown in the link would be too big to pass through (at least) one part of the cave.
Still, it might be possible to resurrect that technology and make a longer, tapered, tube-shaped rescue capsule that could maybe hold more oxygen. The tight squeezes would still be very difficult to navigate, however. There is even a section of the cave that is essentially a vertical hairpin turn -- it would be very hard, and potentially unsafe, to pull or drag an enclosed person through.
Something like this could be part of the puzzle in the end, though. The Chilean miners in 2010 were extracted via rigid capsule. The challenges are very different here with the way the cave is set up, but maybe the best of all ideas can be brought to bear in whatever eventual solution is found.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Wonder if it would be in any way possible to seal the cave entrance up while running an air supply through the seal and then pumping all of the water out.
Doug B
Footballguy
No one really wants to say this out loud at the scene ... but I suspect you're right. I think they're either going to (a) get the drainage problem closer to solved and basically get the kids out the way they came in, or else (b) get them out on foot in October. -- or sooner with a weather luck-out.
The Chilean miners were underground for just over two months (8/5-10/13/2010). Three more months underground for the soccer team would be most unpleasant, but survivable -- it might be the best shot in the end.
Doug B
Footballguy
Taking El Floppo's suggestion, I've looked at a few maps and surveys of the cave complex (nothing special, just what various news sites are posting). Counter to my own intuition, water doesn't get into the cave through the entrance. In fact, the first few hundred meters of the cave are dry and can be walked just fine. The divers have their base camp well inside the cave.
Anyway, with the entrance being a relative "dry zone", it's clear that the passages are taking water from elsewhere. El Floppo suggested inlets on the sides of the cave structure -- and from what I can tell, he is correct. So far, two of these inlets have been blocked (the Huai Nam Dan and Huai Makok streams). Hopefully, they can find more and seal it off as well as possible. I highly doubt it would be possible to find every single source of flooding and seal them off, though -- with great luck, maybe getting the major inlets will make enough of a difference.
There could also be issues with ground water seepage, water table rising, underground streams in the cave system, and so on.
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GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Clearly I should have actually read an article first since that's exactly what they are attempting. What a horrific situation and insane engineering challenge.
Nick Vermeil
Footballguy
Because he was the adult in charge who led a group of 12 year old kids into an inescapable cave of death? Maybe I'm being extreme?
Doug B
Footballguy
Two links I've found useful today:
Thai cave rescue: Boys and coach not yet well enough to attempt escape (CNN) - harrowing images of the inside of the cage, and a good horizontal map of the cave passage.
Thai rescuers race to drain water from cave before rain (UK's Guardian News video, 1:15) - explores the multi-faceted plan of attack in getting the team rescued. The surface above the cave is being surveyed, presumably to see if boring through the rock from above is feasible. There is also extensive ongoing surveying of the surrounding terrain.
EDIT: just realized that Henry Ford linked the CNN article back on the previous page. Seriously, though ... it is the best catch-up read I've seen today.
Thai cave rescue: Boys and coach not yet well enough to attempt escape (CNN) - harrowing images of the inside of the cage, and a good horizontal map of the cave passage.
Thai rescuers race to drain water from cave before rain (UK's Guardian News video, 1:15) - explores the multi-faceted plan of attack in getting the team rescued. The surface above the cave is being surveyed, presumably to see if boring through the rock from above is feasible. There is also extensive ongoing surveying of the surrounding terrain.
EDIT: just realized that Henry Ford linked the CNN article back on the previous page. Seriously, though ... it is the best catch-up read I've seen today.
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Doug B
Footballguy
These two links are also good for getting the lay of the land. El Floppo's is especially good because it shows an overhead layout and can be cross-referenced with the horizontal maps shown at the other links.
Short Corner
Footballguy
ragincajun
Footballguy
Bell I am glad you mentioned the flex seal. I was thinking it....
In all seriousness it looks like they need to do whatever they can to make the cave as habitable as possible for a possible 4 month duration with the hope of getting them out sooner.
In all seriousness it looks like they need to do whatever they can to make the cave as habitable as possible for a possible 4 month duration with the hope of getting them out sooner.
Doug B
Footballguy
Someone on another board reported that a stream had been diverted to reduce the amount water entering the cave. Looking for a link, though.
EDIT: It's legit -- UK's Sky News, July 4th:
EDIT: It's legit -- UK's Sky News, July 4th:
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