omally
Footballguy
Hopefully the organization doesn't have that type of knee jerk reaction. Do you think the Vikings HC will be fired today? How about Coughlin? Shanahan?
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****The 2019 Carolina Panthers Thread**** We Rhule At Losing (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter BassNBrew
- Start date
pantherclub
Footballguy
0-2. No teams in the past 4 years have started 0-2 and made the playoffs.
pantherclub
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
Only idiots fire coaches once the season begins. I have been watching football a long time I have never seen a coaching change mid-season amount to much. I do agree that they need to be a lot more aggressive. They should have played for the first not the field goal. But the reality it this team was up 6 points on a rookie QB with no timeouts and 80 yards to go. All the D had to do was keep them out of the end zone. That's it. And I am tired of hearing it shouldn't have come to this or that. Bull####. It comes to this or that in game after game and good teams find a way to win. The much vaunted front 7 needs to take a close look in the mirror this morning. And the turnstile that passes for the right side of the line is a huge problem I don't see enough people talking about. 4.5 sacks allowed is no way to win games. I also saw BnB ragging Cam. That is so silly. His stats are fine. Maybe the D should step up on occasion.
simey
Footballguy
I very much doubt Chip Kelly would have been interested in Carolina over Philadelphia. For one Philadelphia is a bigger market, but more than anything Kelly wanted some control over personnel, and Philadelphia gave him the final word over the 53-man roster. Only four other head coaches in the league have this authority, and those are Bill Belichick, Mike Tomlin, Mike Shanahan, and Peter Carroll.
had 3 2nd and longs within Buf's 25 in the 4th quarter
had another 3rd and goal on the 5 that would of clinched
all were running plays and/or draws
That is spineless losing football in today's NFL. That mindset perpetuates throughout the team. No one else to point to but the coaching staff IMO.
Jayrok
Footballguy
+1. This is not a bad group of football players. Good teams control those situations and run out the clock. Just like SEA did last weekend. Good teams require good players and good coaching.
The defense played well, and that was a tough interference call on Luke on the interception. Even if it was holding it would only be 5 yards. Pass interference was a killer. But it's the little things that kill this team. Davis blowing up the receiver who would have caught a couple yards completion... in the middle of the field. Instead of knocking the ball loose for an incomplete pass, why not let him catch it and then tackle him in bounds? Several seconds would have went off the clock with the WRs all down field. Instead, it was essentially another timeout for Manuel, who was just throwing ding/dunk passes across the middle, with no timeouts.
NCCommish
Footballguy
No they didn't. They should have been guarding the sidelines and leaving the middle open with cover over the top. Let them throw to the middle all day and down the receiver. They didn't do that. Now that may be on the coordinator. That may be on the fact that we lost 3 starters in the defensive backfield. But whatever it was that was the problem on the final drive.
Jayrok
Footballguy
Sure they did. You are describing the last drive. Yeah, they didn't play well on that drive, but did for most of the game. That's what I was saying, there was no defensive formation to try and prevent them from getting out of bounds on the last drive.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
No they aren't...
Manuel thru 2 games - 45 of 66, 446 yds, 3 tds, 1 int, 7 for 36 rush
Cam thru 2 games - 37 of 61, 354 yds, 3 tds, 1 int, 9 for 53 rush
Manual is averaging 6.8 yds per attempt, Cam 5.8. If Manual is dink and dump, how do you describe Cam?
I realize fantasy stats aren't real life stats, but they are easily accessible. Cam is ranked 24th right now behind Manual and Prior. He's 26th in yards per attempt.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Yeah why don't we talk career not two games. He is the 5th fastest to 8000 yards. Tied with Manning and Brees. I could go on but I am sure you know that his career stats are actually fairly impressive. And my guess is his first two games blow EJ out of the water.
The Commish
Footballguy
We'll agree to disagree I guess. What I find disrespectful is the attempt to trot out the same crap in a different wrapper and pass it off as something new. My issues with this organization are a loooooooooong time in the making. I've been relatively patient since the team's inception. The last few years, things have gone down hill quickly and it's been a rude awakening for me to see where we as a fanbase really stand with the organization. This isn't personal for me. Rivera and this coaching staff just happen to be the coaching staff right now. I don't have a personal vendetta against Rivera but to get respect you earn respect IMO. It's not just given....especially when it's a "rinse and repeat" approach by the people wanting the respect.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Yeah and in the end when it mattered they folded. It doesn't matter how you start it matters how you finish and with this team there is always some part of it unable to finish. Yesterday it was the defense. Last week it was the offense. The reality is this team had every opportunity to be 2-0 right now and they gave it away both times.
The Commish
Footballguy
The only thing I question with Cam at the moment is his vision. He's missed a few wide open WRs down the field. I don't have issue with anything else. He's proven he can throw the deep ball as much as the O-line has proven they can't block well enough to allow him to throw the deep ball from the pocket. To me, all the issues stem from coaching. The on field things we see are all symptoms of that. To your previous post about the other things, I agree 100%. The defense needs to look in the mirror for the game yesterday. It was on them. The offense did well enough to win, but my issue with them is it's always "just enough". No one on that side of the ball has the guts to take a chance on being great. They play not to lose and waste a TON of talent doing so.NCCommish said:
The Commish
Footballguy
He's certainly not progressing as he should, but he's not killing this team either. Frank Garcia's speakin' truth on wfnz right now and Smitty's gonna be on the show at some point. I have a hard time dumping on Newton at this point...he came into the league VERY raw with a ton of things to work on. I think his physical problems (as you list) could be a bit further along, but I'm going to give him credit on working on his maturity as well. I believe he's come a long way in three years...now it's time to really focus on his game decision/management issues.
The Commish
Footballguy
Steve Smith is freakin' awesome. Fielding tons of calls on wfnz right now. Interesting perspective in this quote:
"I don't think you have to have people who 'know how to win'. You have to have guys who do their job everyday to the best of their ability consistently and the wins will come"
"I don't think you have to have people who 'know how to win'. You have to have guys who do their job everyday to the best of their ability consistently and the wins will come"
NCCommish
Footballguy
Yeah he has been doing a lot of talking about players not doing their jobs but has yet to name names. That started yesterday.
NCCommish
Footballguy
My guess would be if the defense had sucked a little less last year we wouldn't have lost several games we did. Should Cam play D as well? Maybe he should have played special teams prior to Ginn's arrival as well. Ooh maybe he can throw the ball up and run under it so as to augment the receiver corp as well.
Last time I checked this was still a team sport and it took 11 guys being right on a play for it to work most of the time.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Just watched the game as I only caught it on radio yesterday.
The thing I found most interesting is that when I skipped forward 30 seconds during the Panthers drives I never missed anything. The ball was usually snapped with 3-6 secs on the play clock. That included snaps at 5 and 6 seconds when trying to run out the clock. When Manual was running his offense and I skipped forward 30 seconds, I was seeing the Bills heading back to the huddle after running a play. Manual had things running much smoother than Cam.
For years we've had WRs that couldn't get open. Now they get open and Cam over throws them by 3-5 yards.
The way Cam is staring down WRs on the out and underneath routes, I'm going to start picking up whoever plays Carolina off the waiver wire. The picks sixes are way overdue.
This team is just plain unlucky. When we need the opposition to catch a ball (inbounds and short), tehy manage to drop it.
The thing I found most interesting is that when I skipped forward 30 seconds during the Panthers drives I never missed anything. The ball was usually snapped with 3-6 secs on the play clock. That included snaps at 5 and 6 seconds when trying to run out the clock. When Manual was running his offense and I skipped forward 30 seconds, I was seeing the Bills heading back to the huddle after running a play. Manual had things running much smoother than Cam.
For years we've had WRs that couldn't get open. Now they get open and Cam over throws them by 3-5 yards.
The way Cam is staring down WRs on the out and underneath routes, I'm going to start picking up whoever plays Carolina off the waiver wire. The picks sixes are way overdue.
This team is just plain unlucky. When we need the opposition to catch a ball (inbounds and short), tehy manage to drop it.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
FWIW, Fred Jackson came out and said he intentionally dropped that ball because he knew he was going to get tackled in bounds. He's made some pretty savvy plays like that before so it's probably true.
Newton definitely still needs to get better at reading defenses and going through his progression if something isn't open, but he also made a lot of plays to extend things that other QBs wouldn't. The Bills could have added 2-4 more sacks on a less mobile QB. Ginn missed a few longer throws that hurt.
The one thing I have to say I was shocked about was how well Buffalo ran the ball. The Panthers hadn't allowed a 100 yard rusher going back 7 games. And they totally bottled up Lynch. After New England shut down the running game for the most part, I was pretty surprised that Buffalo ran the ball as easily as they did. With the Panther secondary being mediocre to begin with and then suffering so many injuries, the front 7 absolutely had to neutralize the run and shut down those RB screens and they totally failed in both regards.
The Commish
Footballguy
What are the chances that the coaching staff is asking Cam to do things and he's not willing to do them? I hadn't considered this possibility until the last couple days when Frank Garcia brought up the question. To me, Cam has to be WAY more consistent and execute. That's not a question. My question though becomes how much is the coaching staff standing in the way of letting him execute (if at all). I find myself wavering between "Cam needs to make plays despite the coaching staff" and "Cam is still learning and needs the coaching staff to help him out with the play calling (i.e. call plays that utilize his strengths)." Not sure what to think anymore.
JFS171
Footballguy
Took some time off after this weekend to think about this team and what's going on.
I think it all boils down to an organization in complete disarray. It goes beyond just the coaching or the players on the field. To build a truly successful franchise, three things have to align: organizational vision, coaching, and talent. For the Panthers, this might as well be a square, a circle, and a triangle.
Gettleman appears to have a vision (or at least we're left to hope he does). He double dipped on the d-line in the past draft, and apparently hit on both picks. The defense has an identity now. You have to hope there's a plan on offense as well, but Gettleman is taking the long-term approach.
Rivera has zero plan. Shula is even worse. Rivera's fate was sealed the day he promoted Shula.
All that said, Gettleman will get his guy next year, and hopefully that begins to align to the on-field talent. Firing RR now does no good - there's no one on the staff that can do a better job, and the team's headed toward a complete train wreck if that happens. Plus, while I'd prefer a Zimmer, Roman, or Kyle Shanahan coaching in 2014, an interim coach doing a halfway decent job puts pressure on G-man to keep him. No thanks. Run a full search. Get the right guy.
At this point, as much as I hate to say it, I'm hoping for the first pick in 2014, which at least brings options. If Cam's not the fit for the organizational vision, deal him and take Bridgewater. If he is, use the pick on Clowney, or trade the pick for a bevy of future picks and drop down, build the lines, etc.
I've grown numb to this season, but I'll be pissed if it's the usual 1-7 start with a 5-3 finish ending up 6-10 all over again.
I think it all boils down to an organization in complete disarray. It goes beyond just the coaching or the players on the field. To build a truly successful franchise, three things have to align: organizational vision, coaching, and talent. For the Panthers, this might as well be a square, a circle, and a triangle.
Gettleman appears to have a vision (or at least we're left to hope he does). He double dipped on the d-line in the past draft, and apparently hit on both picks. The defense has an identity now. You have to hope there's a plan on offense as well, but Gettleman is taking the long-term approach.
Rivera has zero plan. Shula is even worse. Rivera's fate was sealed the day he promoted Shula.
All that said, Gettleman will get his guy next year, and hopefully that begins to align to the on-field talent. Firing RR now does no good - there's no one on the staff that can do a better job, and the team's headed toward a complete train wreck if that happens. Plus, while I'd prefer a Zimmer, Roman, or Kyle Shanahan coaching in 2014, an interim coach doing a halfway decent job puts pressure on G-man to keep him. No thanks. Run a full search. Get the right guy.
At this point, as much as I hate to say it, I'm hoping for the first pick in 2014, which at least brings options. If Cam's not the fit for the organizational vision, deal him and take Bridgewater. If he is, use the pick on Clowney, or trade the pick for a bevy of future picks and drop down, build the lines, etc.
I've grown numb to this season, but I'll be pissed if it's the usual 1-7 start with a 5-3 finish ending up 6-10 all over again.
NCCommish
Footballguy
All we hear from everyone that has ever worked with him is that he is smart, he is coachable and he works hard. As for Frank the players don't trust him? Is that the same set of players that voted him a captain? Frank Garcia is looking for attention.
The Commish
Footballguy
His claim is the coaching staff doesn't trust him and THAT'S why they are calling the games the way they are....or at least part of the reason. I do agree with him that Cam's not really progressed very much in his decision making ability. I'd think that by this time, he should be able to make decisions a lot quicker. It always feels like he's holding the ball way too long. I think the players are rallying around each other, but I do get the sense that kinda ends on each side of the ball meaning the offense is in the foxhole with the offense and the defense the defense.NCCommish said:
I think there are a few factors at play here but the biggest two are ownership's vision of the team and consistency of the team. Ownership, while they might not be cheap, at the very least are foolish with money and don't spend in ways that will make this team competitive. Richardson's made it clear it's business first...winning second. Lack of consistency runs rampant in every single aspect of the organization from the coaches to the players. Hopefully, Gettleman can be the guy to get everyone on the same page but that hinges on Richardson letting go a bit.
If this ends up being the coaching staff trying to force Cam to be something he's not, they need to bench him and play Anderson.
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pantherclub
Footballguy
Wasnt McDermott considered a hot commodity a few years ago. A good young up and comer? Then things went south in Philly. If the Panthers lose Sunday just see what he can do because the Rivera experiment is over.JFS171 said:
The Panthers are in no way shape or form getting the first pick and they are not trading Newton under any circumstance. Starting qb's are a commodity in this league and Cam has shown he has all the tools. He just needs a coach to mold an offense around him. Looks like losing Chud was a big factor.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
I'm not really sure about that. If Cam doesn't overthrow one of a half dozen plays where the WRs were open deep, we're having a different conversation.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
If Rivera was a two-time Super Bowl-winning coach, like Coughlin and Shanahan are, then maybe he would get as much rope as those two do.
The Commish
Footballguy
He has a cash cow here...he'd be a monumental idiot to sell this team under these circumstances. I've called him several things, but an idiot isn't one of them.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
I haven't seen any Panthers games. How is Deangelo Williams running?
NCCommish
Footballguy
If two receivers don't drop touchdowns they had their hands on we are having a different discussion. If Fred Jackson gets ruled a fumble on that last drive instead of incomplete we might be having a different discussion. There are a lot of reasons we could be having a different discussion here that have nothing to do with Cam.
JFS171
Footballguy
I'm not blaming Cam, nor do I personally believe they should trade the guy. What I'm saying is that the coaching and organizational vision do not appear to align with the talent on the field. IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE Cam is the guy to take this team to the promised land, then they might as well trade him. Some team would easily give a couple of firsts for Cam (the sure thing - known commodity) as opposed to trying to draft a franchise QB.
I personally belive the next coach of this team should come from the offensive side of the ball as that has seemingly plagued Carolina for much of the past decade (other than Chud's first year). They need a creative schemer to take advantage of the unique combination of skills Cam brings to the table -- guys that fit that mold (and should be on the short list IMO) are Greg Roman - OC for San Francisco, Kyle Shanahan - OC for Washington, and Kevin Sumlin - HC for Texas A&M. All three of these guys have shown the ability to build an offense around unique talents (Kaepernick, RGIII, and Manziell). I would be fine with leaving McDermott in place on the defensive side of the ball as he clearly is building something there - just needs secondary talent.
In response to McDermott being an up-and-comer... he was run out of Philly pretty fast after taking over for Jim Johnson for a couple of years. Now, wasn't all his fault - he had a complete dearth of talent, and he was hired by Carolina pretty quickly after that, but still. I don't know that I've ever heard his name as a HC candidate in any search. All that said, I do like him as a coordinator, but I believe the new coach should be given that decision.
All the handcuffing in the organization has led us to where we are now -- Gettleman handcuffed to RR instead of being able to bring in his guy. The last thing they need to do is handcuff the new coach to anyone.
I personally belive the next coach of this team should come from the offensive side of the ball as that has seemingly plagued Carolina for much of the past decade (other than Chud's first year). They need a creative schemer to take advantage of the unique combination of skills Cam brings to the table -- guys that fit that mold (and should be on the short list IMO) are Greg Roman - OC for San Francisco, Kyle Shanahan - OC for Washington, and Kevin Sumlin - HC for Texas A&M. All three of these guys have shown the ability to build an offense around unique talents (Kaepernick, RGIII, and Manziell). I would be fine with leaving McDermott in place on the defensive side of the ball as he clearly is building something there - just needs secondary talent.
In response to McDermott being an up-and-comer... he was run out of Philly pretty fast after taking over for Jim Johnson for a couple of years. Now, wasn't all his fault - he had a complete dearth of talent, and he was hired by Carolina pretty quickly after that, but still. I don't know that I've ever heard his name as a HC candidate in any search. All that said, I do like him as a coordinator, but I believe the new coach should be given that decision.
All the handcuffing in the organization has led us to where we are now -- Gettleman handcuffed to RR instead of being able to bring in his guy. The last thing they need to do is handcuff the new coach to anyone.
pantherclub
Footballguy
Roman and Sumlin are very interesting candidates.
I have a feeling Roman will be a HC next year anyway.
I have a feeling Roman will be a HC next year anyway.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Gun to your head, who is coaching this team in 2014?
NCCommish
Footballguy
You guys are way ahead of yourselves. It will depend on how the team does over the season. Not the first two games and certainly not a game where they couldn't run nickel for a quarter and where they were forced to have linebackers covering slot receivers in their base defense. And where they had two seeming touchdowns dropped.Raider Nation said:
pantherclub
Footballguy
Greg RomanRaider Nation said:
JFS171
Footballguy
I'm going to give a qualified answer, which isn't exactly "gun to your head" but I'll explain.Raider Nation said:
If the organization believes Cam is their franchise and their future, and are committed to building around him, then I believe Greg Roman is the likely coach next year with Kyle Shanahan as a close 2nd. While I think Sumlin would be pretty interesting, and I like what I've seen from him, Carolina is likely very wary of hiring a guy with no pro experience.
IF, however, Jerry is still highly involved (as I believe he might be) and if they're not sold on Cam, choose to follow the previous path of HCs, and let Gettleman pick his guy within those parameters, I believe Mike Zimmer will be the next HC. Zimmer supposedly doesn't interview well because he's brash and tells it exactly like it is (could get a taste of that from Hard Knocks as well). I have a feeling that meshes just fine with Gettleman.
IMO it's a call on whether or not Cam is the QB of the future on this team... which, shockingly, I don't think they know right now -- or should I say I don't think they're convinced of that right now.
The Commish
Footballguy
When Gettleman was interviewed last year and he gave that hesitant answer regarding Cam, I didn't put much stock in it at the time. Now? I'm not so sure. If they don't think he's the guy, that's fine...trade him or bench him and move on to Anderson. Stop dragging it out. Make the decision and move on. They've had two years to figure out if they want to build around him or not. The indecisiveness is maddening.
The Commish
Footballguy
I'd like to believe the Panther issues are this simple, but the more I think about it and the more I see, I think it's systemic starting at the top with Richardson.
JFS171
Footballguy
Yeah - say what you will about the Browns organization dealing away their best player (arguably). I'd be fine if Carolina trades Cam, provided they get a good return. Just make a decision on it and move forward with that decision.
The conspiracy theorists in Charlotte believe that Cam was Chud's guy, and that Chud is positioning himself in the 2014 draft to trade for Cam, not trade up for an unproven QB.
simey
Footballguy
I hope they don't trade away Cam. I think the coaching staff is the root of the Panthers struggles, not Cam.
Cam has to be the most marketable guy in Panthers history. Can't see Jerry parting ways with that, even if he is deluded enough to think it makes the team better.
NCCommish
Footballguy
The only way Cam won't be a Panther is if Cam decides to bail. The Panthers will offer him the maximum contract they can just like they did Peppers. I think people read entirely too much into "the pause". Gettleman has one of the most productive, stat wise, QB's to ever play the game. How long did it take Eli to really get going with the Giants? He was in the league 5 years before his completion percentage hit 60 and his highest rating to that point was 77.0. That sucks by the way. Pretty sure Gettleman knows it takes time to develop a QB.Slapdash said:
pantherclub
Footballguy
Now see this is what separates the NFL from the NBA. Even if Cam wants to bail (which I seriously doubt given his ties with Belk and his success so far in marketing) the Panthers have him by the balls. The NFL is structured so the franchises can keep the top talent. If the Panthers want to hold on to him then the Panthers can. They could have franchised Peppers but they let him walk because they didnt want to pay him. But if the Panthers want to keep Cam (and I am sure they do) he is theirs. Sure Cam can pout about it and threaten to pull a Carson Palmer but I dont see that happening.
