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The Great 2020 All Time Television Draft: The Simpsons is judged the greatest show of all time (2 Viewers)

KarmaPolice said:
I know I've asked before and tim suggested looking at the Emmys, but with these ensemble shows, is it safe for our draft purposes to assume most characters in an ensemble show that were in every episode could be drafted for lead male/female? 
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I'd say yes. 

The more debatable issue is whether they qualify as supporting. I take no issue with suggesting a particular character is a lead character. 

 
Zow said:
I'd say yes. 

The more debatable issue is whether they qualify as supporting. I take no issue with suggesting a particular character is a lead character. 
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I was thinking about this after my Willow pick for Buffy.  She was in 144 of the 145 episodes, so I was going to ask if I need to throw that back, or repick my other drama lead.   I get the Emmy argument, but I am trying to wrap my head around why that would be a supporting character.   A supporting character would be Joyce Summers.  

Same thing with the Seinfeld characters drafted.  I mean when they are in all but 2 or 3 episodes out out 173 episodes, how are those supporting roles?    

Not trying to be a Richard, but I am asking because if we are doing this, it really seems to really water down all the lead character categories, and there are 6 of those per time period vs. 2 supporting.   And yes - I understand this also puts my Tyrion supporting pick in the crosshairs as that is evidently the only character in all 67 episodes of GOT.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I was thinking about this after my Willow pick for Buffy.  She was in 144 of the 145 episodes, so I was going to ask if I need to throw that back, or repick my other drama lead.   I get the Emmy argument, but I am trying to wrap my head around why that would be a supporting character.   A supporting character would be Joyce Summers.  

Same thing with the Seinfeld characters drafted.  I mean when they are in all but 2 or 3 episodes out out 173 episodes, how are those supporting roles?    

Not trying to be a Richard, but I am asking because if we are doing this, it really seems to really water down all the lead character categories, and there are 6 of those per time period vs. 2 supporting.   And yes - I understand this also puts my Tyrion supporting pick in the crosshairs as that is evidently the only character in all 67 episodes of GOT.  
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Just because they are in all the episodes doesn’t mean they are a lead. I like to defer to the emmys categorization. Some shows (like Friends or other ensemble casts) can have multiple leads. Other shows have clear leading characters. 

 
Yo Mama said:
Just because they are in all the episodes doesn’t mean they are a lead. I like to defer to the emmys categorization. Some shows (like Friends or other ensemble casts) can have multiple leads. Other shows have clear leading characters. 
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But like somebody said, Emmy's purposely separate out so a show has multiple awards.    Mostly I am just trying to get why a show about a group of 4 people, who are all basically in every episode, doesn't then have 4 leads for our purposes here.  

Again, my question is mostly because I think this really waters down the lead character categories for this draft.  I was looking at a few options this morning and caught myself saying, wait - if Willow, Elaine, George, Kramer, and other examples aren't leads, how can these 10 ideas I had be considered leads then? 

 
KarmaPolice said:
But like somebody said, Emmy's purposely separate out so a show has multiple awards.    Mostly I am just trying to get why a show about a group of 4 people, who are all basically in every episode, doesn't then have 4 leads for our purposes here.  

Again, my question is mostly because I think this really waters down the lead character categories for this draft.  I was looking at a few options this morning and caught myself saying, wait - if Willow, Elaine, George, Kramer, and other examples aren't leads, how can these 10 ideas I had be considered leads then? 
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I understand the "in every episode" argument but even though Kramer (already been picked so no spotlighting) was in almost every show he was a supporting character.  He popped in did his thing and popped out.  I would not have him as a lead character.   I think it's a case by case basis with no one size fits all.  I think the closest we have is what emmy category they were nominated/won in.  It's not perfect and there are reasons to massage those nominations for the show but it is about as close as we got to a third party ruling.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
But like somebody said, Emmy's purposely separate out so a show has multiple awards.    Mostly I am just trying to get why a show about a group of 4 people, who are all basically in every episode, doesn't then have 4 leads for our purposes here.  

Again, my question is mostly because I think this really waters down the lead character categories for this draft.  I was looking at a few options this morning and caught myself saying, wait - if Willow, Elaine, George, Kramer, and other examples aren't leads, how can these 10 ideas I had be considered leads then? 
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I see what you’re saying, but I think using the Emmy classifications is a whole lot less subjective than us or the judges trying to determine who is a lead. Counting prominent secondary characters as leads tremendously waters down the supporting characters. 
 

As an aside, the examples you note above are all secondary characters on shows where the lead character IS IN THE TITLE OF THE SHOW. 😃

 
Gally said:
I understand the "in every episode" argument but even though Kramer (already been picked so no spotlighting) was in almost every show he was a supporting character.  He popped in did his thing and popped out.  I would not have him as a lead character.   I think it's a case by case basis with no one size fits all.  I think the closest we have is what emmy category they were nominated/won in.  It's not perfect and there are reasons to massage those nominations for the show but it is about as close as we got to a third party ruling.  
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You said it better than I did

 
[Coming to America barbershop discussion]:

“If the show calls him/her supporting, and the major awards shows call him/her supporting, I’m going to call him/her supporting!”

 
18.16 Cersei Lannister - Villain

I wanted Joffery here, but the more I thought about it she was the real monster here, she raised him and then carried on his good work (to an even more evil degree) when he died. Oh, P.S. she was also banging her brother.

19.01 Hogan's Heroes - 1950-1970 Comedy

Would get home every day from school and watch re-runs of this.

@Charlie Steiner

 
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Pick 19.02 - Bob Hope Christmas Special (Category - Holiday)

Legendary entertainer Bob Hope appeared on dozens of Christmas specials over his half-century career. Starting with 1962's The Bob Hope Christmas Show and continuing every year until 1994, Hope starred in a holiday song-and-dance show to keep the spirits of the nation high. One of the most committed USO entertainers, Hope never forgot that for troops abroad and their families at home, Christmas could be especially trying: He even brought his show to American soldiers in Vietnam, Beirut, the Persian Gulf, and Saudi Arabia over the years. If there's a definitive American Christmas special, Bob Hope is responsible for it.

@timschochet is up 

 
My 10 year old self could do a great eye-brow and slow-mo impression.. one of the sensations of the 70's

Pick 19 - Hero - Steve Austin aka The 6 Million Dollar Man

 
Gally said:
I understand the "in every episode" argument but even though Kramer (already been picked so no spotlighting) was in almost every show he was a supporting character.  He popped in did his thing and popped out.  I would not have him as a lead character.   I think it's a case by case basis with no one size fits all.  I think the closest we have is what emmy category they were nominated/won in.  It's not perfect and there are reasons to massage those nominations for the show but it is about as close as we got to a third party ruling.  
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Yo Mama said:
I see what you’re saying, but I think using the Emmy classifications is a whole lot less subjective than us or the judges trying to determine who is a lead. Counting prominent secondary characters as leads tremendously waters down the supporting characters. 
 

As an aside, the examples you note above are all secondary characters on shows where the lead character IS IN THE TITLE OF THE SHOW. 😃
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You guys are making good points.  I guess then my push back would be that IMO we probably over emphasized lead characters for the draft since it seems like a majority would be classified as supporting.  

and yes, I did :lol:  at yo mama's bolded  

Carry on.  Just tell me when I pick wrong for lead character, or Mrs R can pop in to volunteer to judge that after I drafted something and fully shut me down.  ;)  

 
19.XX- Family Feud- Gameshow

Who's going to win this category?

Survey Says... Tuffnutt!

Side note was there anyone ever more pervy than Richard Dawson?? 

 
tuffnutt said:
19.XX- Family Feud- Gameshow

Who's going to win this category?

Survey Says... Tuffnutt!

Side note was there anyone ever more pervy than Richard Dawson?? 
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He was awesome on match Game but then yeah he took a bit of a turn on FF.

Would def like to see best game show host in the supplemental draft... this is what I have so far...

best game show host

best medical show

best police show

best law show

worst ending of all time

best single episode of all time

best tv character of all time

best guest star

best tv pet

wild card!

 
KarmaPolice said:
You guys are making good points.  I guess then my push back would be that IMO we probably over emphasized lead characters for the draft since it seems like a majority would be classified as supporting.  

and yes, I did :lol:  at yo mama's bolded  

Carry on.  Just tell me when I pick wrong for lead character, or Mrs R can pop in to volunteer to judge that after I drafted something and fully shut me down.  ;)  
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I think we’ve done a good job overall with the lead/supporting classifications. My only questionable one is The Fonze as supporting since the emmys recognized him as lead, but I totally understand the drafter’s reasoning for putting him there.

Obviously there are some (Rhoda, Frazier, Saul, I’m sure more to come) that can go either way based on spinoff series where they became leads, but the judges will just need to separate those out based on the categories they are placed in (if Frazier is placed in supporting, only his work in Cheers should be reflected IMO). 
 

Good discussion to keep me from watching live feeds of votes being counted. 

 
Yo Mama said:
I think we’ve done a good job overall with the lead/supporting classifications. My only questionable one is The Fonze as supporting since the emmys recognized him as lead, but I totally understand the drafter’s reasoning for putting him there.

Obviously there are some (Rhoda, Frazier, Saul, I’m sure more to come) that can go either way based on spinoff series where they became leads, but the judges will just need to separate those out based on the categories they are placed in (if Frazier is placed in supporting, only his work in Cheers should be reflected IMO). 
 

Good discussion to keep me from watching live feeds of votes being counted. 
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Mostly this was me trying to comb through for upcoming draft picks, and the fact that I already had my supporting slots filled up.  As I looked at other selections and that people didn't really push back on the classification, I felt that it crossed off just about everybody from my list that I was writing down.  IE - comedy:  I said to myself that if George and Kramer are both supporting, that takes just about everything I wrote down as possibilities for that category since so many shows are similar in that structure of having that goofy core group of characters.  That is what I am trying to reconcile (and avoid another doc debate), not so much arguing against people's picks so far - if that makes sense.  

 
Going to take a stab at another blast from the past for children's show.  I thought about taking my favorite current show to watch with the 5 year old later in the draft, but instead I am going to take some funky ### #### with Morgan Freeman since I noticed only a few have been taken for the category.    

18.xx:  THE ELECTRIC COMPANY (children's show)

Link

 
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KarmaPolice said:
Going to take a stab at another blast from the past for children's show.  I thought about taking my favorite current show to watch with the 5 year old later in the draft, but instead I am going to take some funky ### #### with Morgan Freeman since I notice only a few have been taken for the category.    

18.xx:  THE ELECTRIC COMPANY (children's show)

Link
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was a big fan of this show. I only have one or two more on my list. I could always move the Muppet show to childrens show if need be

 
wikkid's Round Reviews

@BobbyLayne reminded me that i used to do this to timdrafts, so i thought i'd fire it up again, highlighting my best, worst and most interesting of each round. While i try to contextualize my choices, they are purposefully subjective.

Round One:

Best pick - 1.14 SNL (Doug B). 40 years of leading the zeitgeist (and 5 years of following it rather limply) as well as providing comedy with many of its brightest lights (which this format keeps this draft from recognizing because nobody's gonna take Fred Garvin, Male Prostitute over Tobias Funk) is a slammajamma @ 14 (runnerup: Star Trek - another progenitor of soooo much)

Worst pick - 1.12 Cheer's Theme (Zow). I guess this is where i reply to Woz's opinion of impassioned drafting. If this was for dough, i'd be right with ya, ol' pal, but i have been participating in timdrafts™ for over a decade and i've always seen their purpose as making points rather than gathering them. This wasnt even a no-brainer cat grab - i can think of several i would rank ahead of this limp li'l ditty. Heck, i used to stay up Friday nights when i was little just to hear a theme song (which made the composer's career like Star Wars did John Williams) and i signed a band once simply for their metallic showcase version of a 60s theme and both of those are still on the board. Runnerup - The Office. I really wanted to go after GoT in this round because i consider it a matter-of-taste thing (OKBoomer) and this is too early for that, but then i see the cast members have been as voraciously drafted as Seinfelders, so i must defer. I'm guessing this is the American Office, so it might not even be the best Office. I enjoyed the heck out of it originally, but i cant even watch it anymore. Was it being so far ahead of portraying us all as selfish, petty #####es that make it cringeworthy now? That's a hella accomplishment if so, but hurts it for posterity.

Most interesting pick - all of em. First round picks are all interesting. But i'll be picking one in subsequent rounds.

Round Two:

Best pick - 2.07 Walter Cronkite, News Personality (jwb). Was it them or is it us? Actually, it's money is why. Truth don't market like lies. But this is more a vote for broadcasters. Trust is the most important element to working together as a society and making oneself worthy of trust by the sound of one's voice and value of one's words is a rare and special gift. It is not an accident that the change of broadcast news from the fulfillment of a public trust (upon which one's broadcasting license was secured) to a revenue stream coincides with the continuing dissolution of democracy in this nation. And Cronkite was the best, the embodied good sense of humanity. Runnerup - (tie) Lucy Ricardo & Mary Richards. I have Mary Tyler Moore's portrayal ahead of Lucille Ball's but must stipulate that the former dont get to be serious had not the latter been so silly.  Part of the maddening process of women being seen. Men only have to be arguably funny to get seen. Women had (and probably still have) to be undeniably funny to even have a chance for that. Lucy worked the funny like Cronkite worked the truth. And Mary used that to fill & break our hearts.

Worst pick - 2.12 Jack Bauer, Hero (higgsy). Never missed an ep of 24, but Bauer left me cold. My generation de-constructed heroism and i'm not sure it ever recovered. I dont mind flawed heroes, but obsessed heroes, "whatever's necessary" heroes, "no matter the cost" heroes arent the kind i want at the top of any list, no matter their utility. Our hero professions themselves have suffered from this kind of thinking so i must vote against it here. Runnerup: Archie Bunker. There's a connection between Bauer and Bunker and i don't want to go too far into it. Let's just say there's a variance between the general perception of what is entertaining and my own.

Most interesting pick: David Letterman. I'm starting to regret two phenomena that blossomed as a result of my generation's curiosity - de-construction & porn. Little did we imagine what Pandoras either would be, but they are both at the heart of many of today's least-healthy obsessions. I'll reserve judgement on what kind of porn star Letterman would be, but his length & girth as a de-constructor is beyond legendary. This curious man opened up a perfectly happy, innocuous format - celebrity feel-good chat - to reveal most of the purgatories of modern life and offered but one reasonable response - blow it up & giggle. Sarcasm was a beautiful thing until Dave made it the currency of daily conduct. Now i have to listen to bohunks & barbies throw shade.

 
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19.10 - Howdy Doody - Children's Show

You guys sniped my childhood stuff, so I'll take something before my time. This was the big pioneer, and prettymuch every kid in America was transfixed. Howdy Doody, Buffalo Bob, Clarabell the Clown, Phineas T. Bluster... etc.   

@Mrs. Rannous

 
jwb said:
19.10 - Howdy Doody - Children's Show

You guys sniped my childhood stuff, so I'll take something before my time. This was the big pioneer, and prettymuch every kid in America was transfixed. Howdy Doody, Buffalo Bob, Clarabell the Clown, Phineas T. Bluster... etc.   

@Mrs. Rannous
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I suspect that show gave kids nightmares.  It creeped me out.

 
KarmaPolice said:
Going to take a stab at another blast from the past for children's show.  I thought about taking my favorite current show to watch with the 5 year old later in the draft, but instead I am going to take some funky ### #### with Morgan Freeman since I notice only a few have been taken for the category.    

18.xx:  THE ELECTRIC COMPANY (children's show)

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HEY YOU GUYS!!!!

Had this on a very short list.

 
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AcerFC said:
was a big fan of this show. I only have one or two more on my list. I could always move the Muppet show to childrens show if need be
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For whatever reason, I remember watching this more than I remember watching Sesame Street.  Not sure if that is actually the case, or maybe just watched this one slightly later in life so the memory stuck more.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
For whatever reason, I remember watching this more than I remember watching Sesame Street.  Not sure if that is actually the case, or maybe just watched this one slightly later in life so the memory stuck more.  
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I preferred Electric Company to Sesame Street when I was a kid.

 
Picking shortly. Just reeling a bit from wikkid's takedown of what I thought was a great choice. Going to chalk it up to me saying the 70's A's were good but not great.

 
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