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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (2 Viewers)

Henry Ford said:
My arguments all get punctuated by "right?"  

"Well, judge, that's why the legislature in its wisdom made very specific rules for Offers of Judgment, right? If you'll look at page the second paragraph, what it says is that the defendant doesn't get to use it to enforce costs unless we win - in fact, it's sanctionable for him to even provide it to the court unless we do, right?"
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Can you get him to nod in agreement after every "right?"?

 
Henry Ford said:
My arguments all get punctuated by "right?"  

"Well, judge, that's why the legislature in its wisdom made very specific rules for Offers of Judgment, right? If you'll look at the second paragraph, what it says is that the defendant doesn't get to use it to enforce costs unless we win - in fact, it's sanctionable for him to even provide it to the court unless we do, right?"
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One of my favorite prosecutors I do a bunch of trials with/against does this too. I always want to scream, "No! No!" 

 
Zow said:
@Otis A little over a month ago I filed a motion - that is, I decided it was best for my client to raise a particular issue that wasn't even a worry to the state or the judge at the time - which resulted in my client spending nearly a month in jail. That is to say, that if I had just let the status quo go and/or foreseen this potential result and focused instead solely on his trial prep case, my client would not have had to spend any of that time.  I went back to the office and nearly threw up. After trying to notify everybody I could for the guy I went home for the weekend and didn't sleep at all because I, when I went to bed that night and was reliving it all, realized that the next day was his kid's birthday. 

I'll conclude this all by relaying that I special actioned the judge's decision to the court of appeals and succeeded in getting them to issue injunctive relief overturning the judge's particular decision.  We're now set for oral argument in August and the issue is likely to turn into a published opinion.  Nonetheless, regardless of whether my analysis of the issue is correct, if I had just let it go and looked for the forest through the trees and foresaw how this particular judge would have reacted my client would have never done any of that time and would not have missed his kid's birthday.  And I cannot give it back to him no matter what other good work I do going forwarded. 
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Helpful perspective GB. Worst that happens in my case is I have a pissed off client who doesn’t send us work anymore. 

 
Otis said:
Helpful perspective GB. Worst that happens in my case is I have a pissed off client who doesn’t send us work anymore. 
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But that's a really big deal in your world and could mean a significant amount of money. 

It's really apples to oranges. I imagine the bulk of us routinely deal with legitimately stressful things and, whether those things are thousands of dollars, custodial rights to a child, property possession, etc., one thing is not necessarily more stressful than the rest and our clients' lives are effected. Heck, the "easiest" thing I do is evictions and even there it's at least unsettling to help boot somebody out of his or her home before Christmas (even if they weren't paying rent for no good reason).  

It's probably why making time for counseling isn't a bad idea. :bag:   

 
I've been in a pointless deposition all day where a witness has spent 5 hours speculating on things on which he has no personal knowledge.   The attorney taking his deposition is a complete mess.

 
all the sympathies to you people complaining about stress, sleepless nights and payment.

- every architect that's ever lived

but mostly- congrats to @Zow .. good luck with the new job, town, life- exciting stuff.

 
Otis said:
I hear woz just switched to a new firm. Details pls GB. And congrats and good luck!
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There's some information above.  You (along with Krista and a few others) actually provided some helpful and good insight while I was exploring the option back in May. Wound up taking the job when the numbers and benefits came back right. Moved to another county where the schools and cultural events are lightyears better than where I was. Was really, really hard breaking it to the partners at my old firm. Tears were shed by me and one other partner. I described it as breaking up with a girl who hadn't done anything wrong. 

As for the description of the new firm I have basically joined the real life version of HHM from Better Call Saul.  About 20 lawyers, really great community reputation, very solvent and established. I'm typing this on day two. Going to have to grunt it a bit, assist one of the partners on his cases (while I wrap up the ~15 or so that came over with me), but I'm being told I can set free to take on what I'd like here in a couple of months. Pretty happy so far. Definitely going to be a change where I got used to being the top guy in the sense that I could come and go as I chose, take on cases I wanted, and assign coverage to associates. I went from being the top of a smaller totem pole to sorting mid-way up a much bigger pole. 

 
Another wonderful qualified immunity case.

Summary:

Police pursue a suspect into a yard where some kids are playing. Suspect has no connection with the kids.

Police order kids on the ground at gunpoint, and cuff one adult.  It is agreed none of these people ever posed any threat.

Family dog emerges from the home, posing no threat, officer shoots at dog but misses.  Dog retreats under porch.

Suspect at this time is apprehended and is "visibly unarmed and compliant with officers."

Dog emerges from under porch and approaches family, officer shoots again and again misses dog, but hits kid in the knee.  the kid is on the ground about 18 inches from officer.

Importantly, says the majority, "the parties do not dispute that [the cop] intended to shoot the dog and not [the kid].

Held: "Because Vickers’s actions did not violate any clearly established rights, we conclude that he is entitled to qualified immunity and that the district court should have granted his motion to dismiss."

"We hold that Vickers’s action of intentionally firing at the dog and unintentionally shooting SDC did not violate any clearly established Fourth Amendment rights."

""No other efforts were made to restrain or subdue the dog, and no one appeared threatened by him. Eight or ten seconds after Vickers fired the first shot, the dog reappeared and was “approaching his owners,” when Vickers fired a second shot at the dog..."

The dissent begins:

WILSON, Circuit Judge, dissenting: The majority accurately points out that qualified immunity protects “all but the plainly incompetent.” Maj. Op. at 10 (quoting Malley v. Briggs, 475 U.S. 335, 341 (1986)). Because no competent officer would fire his weapon in the direction of a nonthreatening pet while that pet was surrounded by children, qualified immunity should not protect Officer Vickers. Therefore, I dissent.

http://media.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/files/201715566.pdf

 
Otis said:
You guys ever struggle to let things go?  I hate this job sometimes.

Had a big hearing in a case last week, I took the lead against a couple of more senior lawyers on the other side (recently I’m lead counsel in more and more cases, but it’s still a relatively new role for in my career).  I prepared hard for it. You can always use more time—another week would have been nice—but I felt I went in prepared.  Was a packed courtroom and first impressions are so important; clients and investors all in the courtroom. It went just “OK.”  We won’t have a decision for a few months, but the judge was mixed and it’s very unclear which way he’ll go (some folks on our side previously thought it would be a slam dunk for us). I can’t help but agonize — still over a week later — about things I should have said or done differently, some missed opportunities, and a couple things I just plain flubbed. I’m supposed to be this fantastic courtroom lawyer, and I delivered maybe a 6-7 performance. On the bright side everyone seems to think the leads on the other side weren’t that impressive, so maybe I showed better than they did. (You never know whether people are just trying to be nice to your face and then tearing you up behind your back). But after all the prep and buildup to this, I’m struggling hard to let it go.  Even things as stupid as when local counsel introduced me, I forgot to stand up.  I have no idea why, I was just in my own head and looking at my notes and distracted.  And little things I could have done differently in argument; a point I should have made on rebuttal but just plain forgot to make.  Etc.

This isn’t totally new to me — I’ve often found that I come up with the best questions and arguments while in bed the night AFTER a hearing or deposition or trial. But for some reason I can’t seem to let this one go, been up at night thinking about it, constantly thinking about it...

Ugh. 

Anyway, I’m guessing I’m not the only lawyer in here who experiences this.  Combine it with a frustrating week at work, the pressures of billables and business generation in a big law firm, and I just keep telling myself I need to start saving like crazy and pay off our mortgage, so that I don’t have to do this forever.  

Thanks for listening. 
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Not a lawyer but lurk here sometimes.  But do lots of big presentations. Can’t be perfect. Some days I’m just more on than others. The only thing I beat myself up over is less than great preparation. On to the next one. 

 
I have not posted here in almost a decade (I gave up fantasy football but wandered back through here when I was flogging the internet).  I find myself strangely compelled to join this thread ... must be all the law talkin' stuff.  Love that we lawyers have our own thread.

Hope everyone is doing well!

ETA: 7 years.  Lawyers love to overreach.

 
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CletiusMaximus said:
Another wonderful qualified immunity case.

Summary:

Police pursue a suspect into a yard where some kids are playing. Suspect has no connection with the kids.

Police order kids on the ground at gunpoint, and cuff one adult.  It is agreed none of these people ever posed any threat.

Family dog emerges from the home, posing no threat, officer shoots at dog but misses.  Dog retreats under porch.

Suspect at this time is apprehended and is "visibly unarmed and compliant with officers."

Dog emerges from under porch and approaches family, officer shoots again and again misses dog, but hits kid in the knee.  the kid is on the ground about 18 inches from officer.

Importantly, says the majority, "the parties do not dispute that [the cop] intended to shoot the dog and not [the kid].

Held: "Because Vickers’s actions did not violate any clearly established rights, we conclude that he is entitled to qualified immunity and that the district court should have granted his motion to dismiss."

"We hold that Vickers’s action of intentionally firing at the dog and unintentionally shooting SDC did not violate any clearly established Fourth Amendment rights."

""No other efforts were made to restrain or subdue the dog, and no one appeared threatened by him. Eight or ten seconds after Vickers fired the first shot, the dog reappeared and was “approaching his owners,” when Vickers fired a second shot at the dog..."
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Good god.

 
Beaumont said:
I have not posted here in almost a decade (I gave up fantasy football but wandered back through here when I was flogging the internet).  I find myself strangely compelled to join this thread ... must be all the law talkin' stuff.  Love that we lawyers have our own thread.

Hope everyone is doing well!

ETA: 7 years.  Lawyers love to overreach.
Click to expand...
Seeing how far my mental notebook goes back... were you the other W&L Law here, or am I thinking of someone else? Welcome back.

 
Otis said:
You guys ever struggle to let things go?  I hate this job sometimes.

Had a big hearing in a case last week, I took the lead against a couple of more senior lawyers on the other side (recently I’m lead counsel in more and more cases, but it’s still a relatively new role for in my career).  I prepared hard for it. You can always use more time—another week would have been nice—but I felt I went in prepared.  Was a packed courtroom and first impressions are so important; clients and investors all in the courtroom. It went just “OK.”  We won’t have a decision for a few months, but the judge was mixed and it’s very unclear which way he’ll go (some folks on our side previously thought it would be a slam dunk for us). I can’t help but agonize — still over a week later — about things I should have said or done differently, some missed opportunities, and a couple things I just plain flubbed. I’m supposed to be this fantastic courtroom lawyer, and I delivered maybe a 6-7 performance. On the bright side everyone seems to think the leads on the other side weren’t that impressive, so maybe I showed better than they did. (You never know whether people are just trying to be nice to your face and then tearing you up behind your back). But after all the prep and buildup to this, I’m struggling hard to let it go.  Even things as stupid as when local counsel introduced me, I forgot to stand up.  I have no idea why, I was just in my own head and looking at my notes and distracted.  And little things I could have done differently in argument; a point I should have made on rebuttal but just plain forgot to make.  Etc.

This isn’t totally new to me — I’ve often found that I come up with the best questions and arguments while in bed the night AFTER a hearing or deposition or trial. But for some reason I can’t seem to let this one go, been up at night thinking about it, constantly thinking about it...

Ugh. 

Anyway, I’m guessing I’m not the only lawyer in here who experiences this.  Combine it with a frustrating week at work, the pressures of billables and business generation in a big law firm, and I just keep telling myself I need to start saving like crazy and pay off our mortgage, so that I don’t have to do this forever.  

Thanks for listening. 
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Well, we got the order. Way earlier than expected. Clean sweep in our favor. I’ll go esteeefu now. 

 
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Zow said:
There's some information above.  You (along with Krista and a few others) actually provided some helpful and good insight while I was exploring the option back in May. Wound up taking the job when the numbers and benefits came back right. Moved to another county where the schools and cultural events are lightyears better than where I was. Was really, really hard breaking it to the partners at my old firm. Tears were shed by me and one other partner. I described it as breaking up with a girl who hadn't done anything wrong. 

As for the description of the new firm I have basically joined the real life version of HHM from Better Call Saul.  About 20 lawyers, really great community reputation, very solvent and established. I'm typing this on day two. Going to have to grunt it a bit, assist one of the partners on his cases (while I wrap up the ~15 or so that came over with me), but I'm being told I can set free to take on what I'd like here in a couple of months. Pretty happy so far. Definitely going to be a change where I got used to being the top guy in the sense that I could come and go as I chose, take on cases I wanted, and assign coverage to associates. I went from being the top of a smaller totem pole to sorting mid-way up a much bigger pole. 
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Awesome. And the top of that bigger totem pole is waiting for you GB. Go git em.  Good luck. 

 
Was in small claims court this morning. The judge was essentially telling pro se litigants that they'd better get a lawyer or they were going to lose. Flat out told them if they'd brought pictures or documents for him to look at he wouldn't do it unless they laid a proper foundation and that he wasn't going to help them. Absolute POS.

 
Christo said:
Was in small claims court this morning. The judge was essentially telling pro se litigants that they'd better get a lawyer or they were going to lose. Flat out told them if they'd brought pictures or documents for him to look at he wouldn't do it unless they laid a proper foundation and that he wasn't going to help them. Absolute POS.
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Weird.   Lawyers can't appear in small claims court here.

 
-fish- said:
Weird.   Lawyers can't appear in small claims court here.
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Who represents companies for collections matters? There are lawyers here whose only cases are small claims types cases for credit card companies, utilities, etc. They'll walk into court and pull out 25 files for that day.

 
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Christo said:
Who represents companies for collections matters? There are lawyers here whose only cases are small claims types cases for credit card companies, utilities, etc. They'll walk into court and pull out 25 files for that day.
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They do those in district court.   Small claims has a 5k limit.  

 
I remember a small claims judge one time telling everyone pro se that they were smart to do so, since in our small claims the rules of evidence do not apply.  He told them hiring a lawyer for small claims was like "having a really expensive potted plant."

 
-fish- said:
They do those in district court.   Small claims has a 5k limit.  
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I'm talking about debts that are lots of time less than $1,000.00. Can a factoring company that buys $1MM in debt from a credit card company spread over 5k accounts of about $2k apiece send just a company rep into small claims court? 

 
Question for anyone who can answer.  My 15 year old step daughter has no interest in seeing her biological father.  In fact she is pretty dead set against seeing him and the thought of seeing him makes her cry.   He is no criminal or anything, just a big A hole.

Anyway, he is threatening to lawyer up and try and get my wife for contempt of court because he hasn't seen her in several months.  They have some sort of every other weekend thing that has literally never been followed as written, with both the father and my wife in agreement, until lately that is.  The reason my step daughter has not seen him is because she absolutely refuses to see him.  If we tried to make her she wouldn't even get in the car.

We dont care about the contempt charges cause there is no chance of that, we are just wondering how likely it will be that he is actually able to force her to see him, and what that process would look like.

He isnt exactly rolling in the dough, so not like he will have the A squad representing him.

My wife is the custodial guardian.

In Ohio

 
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ghostguy123 said:
Question for anyone who can answer.  My 15 year old step daughter has no interest in seeing her biological father.  In fact she is pretty dead set against seeing him and the thought of seeing him makes her cry.   He is no criminal or anything, just a big A hole.

Anyway, he is threatening to lawyer up and try and get my wife for contempt of court because he hasn't seen her in several months.  They have some sort of every other weekend thing that has literally never been followed as written, with both the father and my wife in agreement, until lately that is.  The reason my step daughter has not seen him is because she absolutely refuses to see him.  If we tried to make her she wouldn't even get in the car.

We dont care about the contempt charges cause there is no chance of that, we are just wondering how likely it will be that he is actually able to force her to see him, and what that process would look like.

He isnt exactly rolling in the dough, so not like he will have the A squad representing him.

My wife is the custodial guardian.

In Ohio
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Pretty likely and I’d take the contempt charges seriously.  

 
Have y'all ever had a DA subpoena someone from a vacation trip who witnessed an assault? Wife's friend asked advice, and I don't feel like I can give a good answer.

Basically, a guy hit a store clerk and she was in the store. Cop says she may be subpoenaed as the only other state resident who saw, though she was with a couple friends who are from other states. Catch is, she's a student in a different state as well as not living in the actual city where the crime happened. So: assuming she can be subpoenaed at her in-state residence, which is currently sublet to someone else who gets her mail for her and sends it to grad school address, can she just respond that she's a student and has no plans to be back in the state for ## days?

And even if in the state, what would a resident of another city (like a 4 hour drive away) actually do? This is not something we really discussed much beyond the most basic FRCP stuff in law school and I have not practiced since becoming a member of the bar and going inactive.

 
Instinctive said:
Have y'all ever had a DA subpoena someone from a vacation trip who witnessed an assault? Wife's friend asked advice, and I don't feel like I can give a good answer.

Basically, a guy hit a store clerk and she was in the store. Cop says she may be subpoenaed as the only other state resident who saw, though she was with a couple friends who are from other states. Catch is, she's a student in a different state as well as not living in the actual city where the crime happened. So: assuming she can be subpoenaed at her in-state residence, which is currently sublet to someone else who gets her mail for her and sends it to grad school address, can she just respond that she's a student and has no plans to be back in the state for ## days?

And even if in the state, what would a resident of another city (like a 4 hour drive away) actually do? This is not something we really discussed much beyond the most basic FRCP stuff in law school and I have not practiced since becoming a member of the bar and going inactive.
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Not my area of expertise but my guess is that she would have to be personally served with the subpoena. If she’s living out of state that would be difficult. 

 
Look up the Uniform Act to Secure Attendance of Witnesses from without a State in Criminal Proceedings for the state she lives in. Most have enacted it.

 
Christo said:
Was in small claims court this morning. The judge was essentially telling pro se litigants that they'd better get a lawyer or they were going to lose. Flat out told them if they'd brought pictures or documents for him to look at he wouldn't do it unless they laid a proper foundation and that he wasn't going to help them. Absolute POS.
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I was representing myself in traffic court (stop sign violation) and got the same treatment.  i proved the cop was lying about the facts.  Judge said that it didn't matter if the state's only witness had lied in his testimony, I had to prove that I didn't roll the stop sign otherwise I was losing.  That was a head scratcher.  Reading between the lines he was probably saying next time hire someone who contributed to my campaign if you want a fair shake in my court.

 
Christo said:
-fish- said:
Weird.   Lawyers can't appear in small claims court here.
Click to expand...
Who represents companies for collections matters? There are lawyers here whose only cases are small claims types cases for credit card companies, utilities, etc. They'll walk into court and pull out 25 files for that day.
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We have a local law firm that will bring 50-100 eviction files to court.  It finally got to the point they got their own small claims court dates for their cases.

 
Christo said:
Who represents companies for collections matters? There are lawyers here whose only cases are small claims types cases for credit card companies, utilities, etc. They'll walk into court and pull out 25 files for that day.
Click to expand...
I thought companies could not be pro se in small claims court in Texas but now I think that changed ...

 
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My former college roommate is suing Sailor Jack Rum company for zillions.   Apparently the rum company has been using the name & his story for 20 plus years with no benefit to the actual "Sailor Jack"(deceased) or his widow.  Sailor Jack was known as the best tattoo man in the country.  He started his business towards the end of WWll & became a legend.  The rum company actually prints his story on the back of the bottle & I think has a picture of him on it.    Depositions have been started.

This is going to be a nice case for my friend.

 
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