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They gotta do something about the reffing ?! (4 Viewers)
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
It's more of a rules problem. Too many things to look at.
But yes, more refs and full time all year
But yes, more refs and full time all year
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
They tried to do something about it, but the fans and media just got angry at them.
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
Full time refs will not happen because the refs union won’t allow it, and the fans and media stand with the Union
/thread
/thread
ghostguy123
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Yup. I have held a grudge against Peter King ever since. He seemed to lead the bleating charge as a union man. Tons of articles slamming the NFL during the labor negotiations between the refs and league with lots of stuff saying the NFL was putting player health in jeopardy and fans ate it up.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
The officiating is horrendous, feels like they are ruining the game.
HOWEVER - and forgive my ignorance if this has been debated before - how would having Full Time officials improve the quality? Really not seeing it.
ASIDE: My hometown (population 7K) has had two NFL referees. Stan Kenp was my father’s name insurance agent and worked a few SB IIRC. He was replaced by Ed Hochuli when he retired. 18 years later, his son Alex Kemp replaced Ed Hochuli when he retired.
Anyway, I just don’t see how those two (both outstanding Referees) would have benefited from being a FT employee. Educate me, please.
HOWEVER - and forgive my ignorance if this has been debated before - how would having Full Time officials improve the quality? Really not seeing it.
ASIDE: My hometown (population 7K) has had two NFL referees. Stan Kenp was my father’s name insurance agent and worked a few SB IIRC. He was replaced by Ed Hochuli when he retired. 18 years later, his son Alex Kemp replaced Ed Hochuli when he retired.
Anyway, I just don’t see how those two (both outstanding Referees) would have benefited from being a FT employee. Educate me, please.
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dmac37
Footballguy
I'm no expert but I have to believe if they give dedicated time and resources to making the refs the best they can be, this will be a major improvement to what is currently going on. Everyone else involved with the league is dedicated to the NFL, coaches, players, commentators, etc... The refs determine a major portion of the game outcome compared to anyone else other than players and coaches.
wgoldsph
Footballguy
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Yup. I remember being in the minority here when the replacement/fake refs were being used. This board was a huge supporter of the "real refs". Now you reap the spoils of your victory.
The refs haven't been great but the 3rd and 18 play was the CBs fault for not turning his head. They will call that every time.
Glad you brought that up. Who gives a Sh!t if he didn’t turn his head around. Another horrible rule. If the defender isn’t grabbing or holding the WR why is this still a penalty?
I’d almost rather have the refs call nothing than what’s going on here. Completely ruining the flow and outcome of these games.
I’ve narrowed it down to 3 that drive me the most nuts.
“The Drive killer” - the phantom offensive holding call when the offence is moving along nicely that completely kills their drive and momentum.
Roughing the passer - OMG! Have there been some unbelievably bad ones the past couple of years.
The PI/holding - The worst is when a defence is playing great, they have a team in 3rd and long and a mystery flag is thrown to help preserve a drive in which you know 100 percent the offence had no chance of doing by their own means.
I fully admit most of my aggravation with this has some sort of betting or fantasy football implication tied to it but still. Even the average fan trying to get into watching this sport must be baffled and annoyed by some of these calls.
….. rant done
That was not a mystery flag. The CB prevented the WR from being able to catch the ball. He has to make a play on the ball to avoid that. That is blatant pass interference.
Atomic Punk
Footballguy
Although I agree with the premise of the OP, that PI call was correct and reasonable IMO. You can’t have a DB just run with a WR and face guard them with their hands in the air every play. The CB needs to play the ball. This is taught in PeeWee football on up.
As for the overall premise, I absolutely agree. There are certain games where the flag throwing is inexplicable. Unseen holds, phantom roughing the passer, the head bob call on the center yesterday. It just kills the game flow.
As for the overall premise, I absolutely agree. There are certain games where the flag throwing is inexplicable. Unseen holds, phantom roughing the passer, the head bob call on the center yesterday. It just kills the game flow.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Not a bad call in that case IMO, but they need to break PI into two levels... intentional PI (DB burned, trying to prevent a TD) should be a spot foul. Incedental contact on underthrown balls (like that one yesterday) should be 10 or 15 yards and no automatic first down.
Just my two cents, maybe I don't know enough about football to be as frustrated as everyone else, but I hardly see any outright wrong calls on objective rulings, or even terrible judgment calls. Not with great enough frequency to have some huge negative impact on the league. It's random. Like a tipped ball landing in a defender's hands, or a punt bouncing backwards 12 yards after it hits the ground, or a sudden gust of wind that dooms an otherwise good field goal attempt. Obviously playing in some sterile vacuum would be perfect, but it doesn't bother me. ETA: Okay yes it does bother me, especially when it hurts my team, but it goes the other way too, and it doesn't seem too happen all that frequently, to me anyway.
To be honest, I am shocked, regarding the objective rulings, with what great frequency the refs do get it right. Everything happens so fast, and all the moving bodies can easily obscure what needs to be seen.
That said, I do hate a lot of the rules and "guidances" or whatever that the refs are told to abide by. Overall it seems like the defense has to walk a tightrope on their way to make a play. My most hated call is when a defensive player gets called for unnecessary roughness for tackling a ballcarrier who is running toward the sideline seems to be on his way out of bounds, but is not even out of bounds yet!!!!! That's horrible, what are you supposed to do, some of these guys could stop and shift on a dime, to stay inbounds.
To be honest, I am shocked, regarding the objective rulings, with what great frequency the refs do get it right. Everything happens so fast, and all the moving bodies can easily obscure what needs to be seen.
That said, I do hate a lot of the rules and "guidances" or whatever that the refs are told to abide by. Overall it seems like the defense has to walk a tightrope on their way to make a play. My most hated call is when a defensive player gets called for unnecessary roughness for tackling a ballcarrier who is running toward the sideline seems to be on his way out of bounds, but is not even out of bounds yet!!!!! That's horrible, what are you supposed to do, some of these guys could stop and shift on a dime, to stay inbounds.
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DocHolliday
Footballguy
That flag was correct. The DB ran into the WR and prevented him from making a play on the ball. There were two worse call.
The false start on the LV center when he lifted and lowered his head as most centers do on most plays.
The roughing the passer on the Cowboys for inadvertently bumping Carr’s helmet as he was falling down.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Every NFL team should have a dedicated team of assistant coaches teaching players how to draw penalties. A QB can get a roughing flag on nearly every contact play if he knows how duck his helmet into the contact then flail to the ground. Pass rushers need to identify plays where they have leverage to draw a holding flag and know how to sell it. Throw your head back violently, flail your arms then flop hard backwards and a flag is all but certain. A good WR should be able to get an interference call on most underthrown passes. Most NFL players these days are woefully underprepared to exploit the current state of refereeing in the league.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Some roughing penalties seem ticky-tack and that is something the NFL needs to do better at. Inconsistency of offensive/defensive holding is just a reality IMHO. Obviously you can't call every tug of the jersey but you also can't say we're not calling any of it. Everyone knows it is a rule and if guys want to flirt with the rule, that's pretty much on them IMHO. Wear fingerless gloves if you can't help yourself. Maybe every OL should as a solution if we want to eliminate inconsistency. Same with PI. One of my pet peeves is the CB who has no idea where the ball is. Sorry, you're going to be flagged if your defensive technique relies upon interfering with the receiver. All that said, I think rub routes should be prohibited because there's such a blurred line with OPI. If the well executed rub route results in a defender being incapable legally defending it, the play should not be allowed.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
Need to separate the 2 issues. One is “bad rules”. Which rules need to be rethought. But don’t include those with “bad officiating”. 2 different things.
The issue is there is holding of some kind on every play. How much of that is not so egregious that they let the play go on without throwing a flag. Big disparities with that. Some will throw 5 flags in a row. Others won’t
The issue is there is holding of some kind on every play. How much of that is not so egregious that they let the play go on without throwing a flag. Big disparities with that. Some will throw 5 flags in a row. Others won’t
Face guarding is not illegal. If he makes some kind of contact, that's a different story.
I said in another thread, most of this crap falls on the stupid rules they make.
There should be no automatic first downs. One thing that drives me nuts is defensive holding on 3rd and 20.
I don't care that "everyone" comes to see the QB. Take the skirt off of them. The roughing the passer penalties are ridiculous. Incidental contact with the helmet should not be a penalty. This is football and people get hurt.
That's fine if they want to keep the helmet-to-helmet and defenseless player rules, but they should be reviewable.
Go back to when the lineman were not allowed to move, like real lineman. I hate all these wussy pointing plays for a free 5 yards. If a guy comes across the line you have to snap the ball to catch him.
There should be no automatic first downs. One thing that drives me nuts is defensive holding on 3rd and 20.
I don't care that "everyone" comes to see the QB. Take the skirt off of them. The roughing the passer penalties are ridiculous. Incidental contact with the helmet should not be a penalty. This is football and people get hurt.
That's fine if they want to keep the helmet-to-helmet and defenseless player rules, but they should be reviewable.
Go back to when the lineman were not allowed to move, like real lineman. I hate all these wussy pointing plays for a free 5 yards. If a guy comes across the line you have to snap the ball to catch him.
I have no skin in the game and did not think the DB ran into the receiver to warrant a PI call. The receiver made no effort to come back to the ball and it should have been a no call.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
The PI on the Cowboys player by rule was totally correct and he also did make contact before the ball arrived. So that was the correct call. I agree that the not turning around rule should be gone. Who cares as long as you don`t make contact?
Don`t know what the answer is but Lets be honest. The Refs could call holding and PI on every play if they wanted.
Another thing that I am sure everyone has seen is the DBs grabbing the jerseys of WRs on almost every pass play. It rarely gets called and that could be called all the time.
The game is just getting more difficult to referee and with the rules in place more training would not help.
Don`t know what the answer is but Lets be honest. The Refs could call holding and PI on every play if they wanted.
Another thing that I am sure everyone has seen is the DBs grabbing the jerseys of WRs on almost every pass play. It rarely gets called and that could be called all the time.
The game is just getting more difficult to referee and with the rules in place more training would not help.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
DPI spot of the foul. 15 yards would be equitable. NFL quarterbacks complete less than 40% of deep targets. Get the PI call and it’s assumed the ball was on target and the WR would catch it and the DB wouldn’t make a play. Come on.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Agree with this rule change 100000%. The disproportionate impact that that particular penalty is very dumb.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Refs will still call things inconsistently and adjust how they call things based on how certain players actually play the game.
Case in point, Josh Allen is a running QB and thus doesn’t get the same calls other QBs get. How this isn’t an obvious roughing the passer call by definition is beyond me. Textbook diving low on a QB and taking him down right in front of the ref and the ref just kind of brushes Allen off. Rules are enforced differently depending on the player and no matter how much coaching us there is on it, refs are gonna do what they’re gonna do.
I said the exact same thing during the game on that play. And there was another play shortly afterwards where Allen got sacked from behind by a guy on the ground. Brees joked about it being a Cobra-Kai sack for sweeping the leg.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
BigJim® said:
If it is third and 6 and the defense jumps offsides it is now third and one corrrect? No first down?
The yards of a penalty should only get a first down if the yards to go for a first are less. Third and 14 and defense gets a 15 yards personal foul then it is a first down. Third and 16 with a PF and it should be third and one.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Yeah, as I said I totally agree that defensive holding is disproportionate giving an auto 1st down. I'd go a step farther and be on board with PI being a 10 yard/yardage only rather than spot foul. Not sure I agree that a personal foul shouldn't get automatic 1st.
Chaka
Footballguy
Year round training, film study, testing, grading etc.BobbyLayne said:
Repetition breeds competence.
Being a lawyer six days a week and then having to go out on Sundays tasked with making highly important decisions for a multi-billion dollar organization, decisions that have far reaching consequences for not only the players/teams/league but the sports betting public as well, should require a little more than 1/7th of your work focus.
And speaking of the sports betting public. Now that gambling is legal it would be easier to track financial discrepancies with well paid, full time refs rather than with people for whom being a ref is a side hustle.
The turning the head thing is an interesting one. In theory, the position of the defender's head shouldn't matter. If he doesn't make the amount and type of physical contact that warrants the penalty, who cares what his head was doing? But the position of his head does lend some form of evidence that he was playing it the right way and that whatever contact happened may have been incidental. I can see the case either way. Stupid analogy attempt follows:
"Who cares that I was going 56 mph in a 35? Did I hit anybody? No. Why should I be fined?"
Conversely, "Sure, I bumped the car in front of me when he hit the brakes a little harder than I was expecting, but I was going 34 in a 35, doesn't that give me some credibility that I was doing the right thing?"
"Who cares that I was going 56 mph in a 35? Did I hit anybody? No. Why should I be fined?"
Conversely, "Sure, I bumped the car in front of me when he hit the brakes a little harder than I was expecting, but I was going 34 in a 35, doesn't that give me some credibility that I was doing the right thing?"
I agree that's where the head comes in. If he's playing the ball then any contact may be seen as more incidental and allowable. If he's not playing the ball then he's just trying to interfere with the guy who is. I don't think it's really that difficult of a concept.
I'm sure that's why the rule is the way it is. But so what? Then call it, give the offense 5 yards, and run it again.
BigJim®
Footballguy
Maybe. But if you think it will be abused, make it a 10 yard penalty like offensive holding, so a team doing it on 3rd and 15 risks giving the offense a 3rd and 5. I agree with the OP, there's very little argument for making what we see today (in most cases a tug of a jersey) an automatic 1st down. There's still going to be disincentive with a logical yardage penalty.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I know people think this but it really is not totally accurate. In season they spend more time on the NFL job than their regular job. they are not putting in 50 hours a week at their regular job and leaving the office Friday at 6pm.
I know a former NFL official and one now working in the SEC as a replay official who used to be an on field official for decades.
These guys I know and what I have been told have very flexable jobs. They were not lawyers and their companies loved them being an official. They watch a bunch of film during the week and are constantly going over the rules in group conference calls.
The NFL guys usually arrive in town on a Friday before the Sunday games. Then Friday night and most of the day Saturday prepare for the game and going over rules and potential calls.
The NHL, MLB and NBA have to have full time officials because 2 leagues have 82 games and MLB 162. MLB guys are doing 5-6 games a week, the others sometimes 3-4 a week in different cities.
An NFL official is only doing one game a week.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Every week sees its share of bad calls... maybe every game. The "moment" can bring intense focus however, even when the call is correct - even if the rule stinks.
That LVR @ DAL, right or wrong, was decided by a PI call. A desperation pass that was perfectly underthrown to pull the WR into the trailing DB to draw a PI call (as opposed to thrown well where the WR can catch it over his shoulder). Everyone knew the game was over at that point... not a game changing play, but a game deciding call by the refs.
Right or wrong, nobody without a dog in the fight likes to see games end this way... but it's the rule and penalty in this case... not the refs (who got it right).
That LVR @ DAL, right or wrong, was decided by a PI call. A desperation pass that was perfectly underthrown to pull the WR into the trailing DB to draw a PI call (as opposed to thrown well where the WR can catch it over his shoulder). Everyone knew the game was over at that point... not a game changing play, but a game deciding call by the refs.
Right or wrong, nobody without a dog in the fight likes to see games end this way... but it's the rule and penalty in this case... not the refs (who got it right).
Chaka
Footballguy
It's still not the same level of prep as if you were a full time employee.
They also get a very long off-season. Most refs are done by January and a few hold on until the SB. Then it's six months with maybe the occasional training day (or zoom call).
Considering the money at stake that is simply inadequate. With legalized gambling it is more important than ever to bring all refs in-house.
Brunell4MVP
Footballguy
Seems to me yesterdays game were officiated correct. The problem is with some of the rules.
RTP needs to have intent to it, or something like that. Where it is malicious. A hand hitting a helmet, or a QB being a live runner and getting hit, are part of the game. QB position has been sissified.
PI needs to change the rule so the defender does not need to turn his head. The CB is running one way and watching the WR. How is he supposed to turn his head at the exact moment. The WR knows when he is likely to be the target. A CB is basically waiting for a WR hands to go up, then has to turn, find the ball, and if they do that it is likely too late to make an adjustment. Face guarding and not turning back needs to be allowed.
Holding needs to be allowed for OL. Or at least some form of it. Just having your hands outside a players shoulder pads should not be holding IMO. How else are you supposed to stop him,
I think changing these rules may make running the ball more important. The game is all passing now because of RTP, PI, and holding on a significant number of run plays. They used to never call holding on run plays. Never. Now it's easier to pass block than run block.
RTP needs to have intent to it, or something like that. Where it is malicious. A hand hitting a helmet, or a QB being a live runner and getting hit, are part of the game. QB position has been sissified.
PI needs to change the rule so the defender does not need to turn his head. The CB is running one way and watching the WR. How is he supposed to turn his head at the exact moment. The WR knows when he is likely to be the target. A CB is basically waiting for a WR hands to go up, then has to turn, find the ball, and if they do that it is likely too late to make an adjustment. Face guarding and not turning back needs to be allowed.
Holding needs to be allowed for OL. Or at least some form of it. Just having your hands outside a players shoulder pads should not be holding IMO. How else are you supposed to stop him,
I think changing these rules may make running the ball more important. The game is all passing now because of RTP, PI, and holding on a significant number of run plays. They used to never call holding on run plays. Never. Now it's easier to pass block than run block.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
Do you really think the only thing these guys do is roll out of bed Sunday morning and head to the stadium?
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I agree. The last PI call on Dallas was PI. Even if he turned around the defender still made contact before the ball. It was a game changing call but a correct call.
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