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Tim Tebow... (1 Viewer)
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ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Jake Locker will be better 
Sinrman
Footballguy
I'm sorry... I normally never do this, because it always bites me in the ####... buuuut...
Tim Tebow would make a HORRIBLE NFL QB.... he is so-so at passing.. but all he does is run. Does he think he's Michael Vick or something?! He's an option-oriented QB, which would mean he would last 2 seconds in the NFL. He'll get KILLED the first time Urlacher or Donnie Edwards or some linebacker hit him...
Tim Tebow would make a HORRIBLE NFL QB.... he is so-so at passing.. but all he does is run. Does he think he's Michael Vick or something?! He's an option-oriented QB, which would mean he would last 2 seconds in the NFL. He'll get KILLED the first time Urlacher or Donnie Edwards or some linebacker hit him...
I have no idea how he will do in the NFL, but he's more accurate throwing than Vince Young, and VY is generally acclaimed as the next NFL GOD.I have no reason to believe that a 19 year old who just may be the greatest college QB I have EVER seen couldn't hack it in the NFL.
Of course, I could be VERY wrong!
Sinrman
Footballguy
Well, with Young it isn't just his arm that people like. It's his football "smarts" and his ability to run and manage that offense. I thought Young would make a good QB in the NFL, if he doesn't go down the Michael Vick path and run-first every play. So far, he's doing pretty good...
gump
Footballguy
Tebow runs because he can. He has a cannon of an arm and can make all throws, just hasn't been asked to yet. Definitely NFL-level talent in all aspects.
SSOG
Moderator
Coming into today, Tim Tebow was the second highest rated passer in the entire NCAA. He was averaging THIRTEEN POINT FREAKING SEVEN YARDS PER ATTEMPT, also second in the nation, behind only Mike Teel of Rutgers on both counts. He's completed 73.7% of his passes, averaging 280 passing yards per game, he has 8 TDs, and he has 1 INT. Today, Tebow had his worst game of the season with 20/34 for 261 and 2 TDs/0 INTs, a pathetic 7.7 yards per attempt. If this is only "so-so", then lord help us all when we finally see a good passer, because he'll be averaging 30 yards per attempt.Saying he's an option-oriented QB is missing the point. Florida has actually run very little option this season- about as much as they ran last season. He may be an option-oriented QB, but he's putting up his numbers in a very option-light offense. The bulk of his passing yards are coming on bombs down the field, where he is extremely accurate. It's not a 1-year fluke, either- Tebow holds the single-season passing record for Florida State High School Football, and Florida is probably the most talent-rich high school football state in the union (although fans are more passionate in Texas).
Besides that, Tebow is a physical specimen. He actually had the second-highest bench press on the entire team last season (yes, even higher than all but one of the offensive linemen), and this is a team that won the national championship and sent 11 players to the NFL. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's the best college QB in the game right now, or the best pro prospect, but he's a drastically better passer than VY was at this stage of his career, as well as a drastically better rusher than VY was at this stage of his career. His measurables are off the charts, and so are his intangibles. Also, he hits harder than any fullback in college football- if he collides with Urlacher, don't be so sure that it's Tebow who's going to be getting killed. He was the best short-yardage rusher in the nation last year despite the fact that everyone knew he was going to be running it in every short yardage situation.
Another guy to keep an eye on in the Florida offense right now is Percy Harvin. He's a true sophomore like Tebow, but he's possibly the most electric WR left in college football now that Calvin Johnson is in the pros. He's going to be going in the top 10 when he comes out. Feel free to mark that down. I feel much more confident that Harvin is going to be a top-3 dynasty pick than I am that Tebow will one day be a top-10 dynasty pick.
Edit: Also, no NFL team would ever do it unless they had a stud QB backing up the starter, but any offense featuring a mobile QB and willing to let him operate as both an RB *and* a QB has a huge personnel advantage. It's basically like playing with an extra player on the field- normally on running plays, you have the ballcarrier and 9 potential blockers. If the QB is the ballcarrier, that number rises to 10 potential blockers. That's one of the big reasons why Tebow is so hard to stop, because it's as if Florida is playing with 12 men on the field.
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FavreCo
Footballguy
You are 100% correct. He will find a quick spot on IR with that #### in the NFL.
SSOG
Moderator
Just out of curiousity... why? There are tons of NFL RBs who take much more punishment than Tebow and live to tell the tale. The reason a lot of QBs can't take the punishment is because they're built like WRs. Tebow is built like a fullback, and I strongly suspect that he could take every bit as much punishment as any other fullback could take. Did you miss the part where, as a FRESHMAN COMING INTO SCHOOL, after having spent little to no time in the strength and conditioning program, he had the second-best bench press on a UF team that featured 11 players who went to the NFL last year alone (and will likely have at least another dozen after all is said and done)?Besides, it's not like he hasn't faced any NFL-caliber defenders yet. He seems to be doing just fine so far. I don't expect any NFL franchise to run him quite this much, since they're on the whole a much more risk-averse group, but I see no reason to think that Tebow couldn't hold up to 200 carries a season (which would be a VERY light workload for any RB, yet somehow is an unsustainable workload for a QB who is bigger and stronger than most RBs and has all of those rules designed solely to protect him).
Crusaderfan
Footballguy
I think you need to watch a few more Gator games before you come to the conclusion that Tebow can't pass. I think you are wrong about that. It's funny that he was mentioned here because I was thinking today about when he comes out. Would it be ok for us to refer to him as "athletic"?
For laughs : www.timtebowfacts.com
Afro Samurai
Footballguy
I admire the toughness Tebows shows but he won't last long in the NFL if he continues playing the way he does.
SSOG
Moderator
I actually went back and looked up Tebow's bench press numbers. As an 18-year old high school senior, Tebow benched 185 pounds 38 times. That's just sick. That's better than the majority of the elite OL prospects coming out of high school. In fact, I found a comparison of the high school measurables of all the players on both Florida and Ohio State in the championship game last year. These were the two best schools in the entire nation, the two most talented rosters. Those teams will probably combine to send 30-40 players to the NFL (including multiple offensive and defensive linemen). They are recruiting superpowers who land 5-stars with ease. And despite all of that, nobody on either team topped Tebow's 38 reps. In fact, Offensive Lineman Jim Tartt was the only one to come close (36 reps), with no one else getting more than 31.
Comparing Tim Tebow to Michael Vick is positively ludicrous. You might as well compare Dave Meggett to Jerome Bettis.
Comparing Tim Tebow to Michael Vick is positively ludicrous. You might as well compare Dave Meggett to Jerome Bettis.
SSOG
Moderator
Again, why? He doesn't play any differently than any college RB. He doesn't get hit any more than, say, a Darren McFadden... but everyone thinks McFadden is going to easily carry the ball 300 times in the pros with no problems, while Tebow is an injury risk if he gets 150 carries in a season. Tebow is stronger and bulkier than McFadden. He could easily handle the workload that McFadden handles. If Tebow is this huge injury risk, then why isn't every single RB seen as a bigger injury risk, since they'll be taking *MORE* hits, they'll have *LESS* bulk, and they won't have all of those rules designed to protect them?
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
SSOG seriously owning this thread.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Tim Tebow's passing stats in games he started:13-17 (76.5%) 300yds 3td 0int
18-25 (72%) 236yds 3td 0int
14-19 (73.3%) 299yds 2td 1int
20-34 (59%) 261yds 2td 0int
I realize this wasn't exactly against all-world competition but it still shows that your "all he does is run" statement (on a day where he threw the ball 34 times...lol) is quite ignorant. For what it's worth at this point I also do not think Tebow will make for a good NFL QB, but he has the physical tools (arm strength and accuracy) to do it (that throw he made against Tennessee where he was falling down and totally horizontal to the ground and chucked the ball 15 yards into a tiny window for a key 3rd down conversion may be the best pass I've ever seen) without question. The question is whether he can develop both the touch and ability to read the field (he's hurting in this category a lot right now) to do so, but let's keep in mind he's only a sophomore making his first couple starts here.
I totally disagree with the statement that he'll "last 2 seconds in the NFL". Sure, he'll get hit a bit harder but he'll get hit a whoooollllllleeeeee lot less than he is right now. He's not going to be getting hit 30 times a game in the NFL like he does in college because his coaches are not going to design nearly as many plays around running their QB. He's been taking 30 hits a game and hasn't so much as jammed a finger.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
That is what Vick was..and he ended up the #1 overall pick.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I think the bolded part is the key here. People that make posts like that generally don't read well thought-out arguments that go beyond 2 or 3 sentences. I'd bet a bundle of cash that he did in fact miss that part, as he never read it before his witty one-liner.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Something worth mentioning: Lebow's a lefty, so all his passes look a little uglier than normal, and people will always question his arm. Lefties just aren't pretty.
notapplicable
Footballguy
Game won't translate to the NFL just as Eric Crouches didn't.
Crusaderfan
Footballguy
I would like to think that as a Sophomore his "game" may still evolve.
Afro Samurai
Footballguy
You could possibly be right, but it's a moot point since no NFL coach in his right mind would allow him to play like that anyway.Can't be risking your franchise quarterback running him behind the left guard 15 times a game.And also, I don't know if you've noticed, but NFL running backs don't tend to have particularly long careers these days.
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
And just like Alex Smi.....oh wait. Err I mean Donovan Mcna......hold on a sec. No no, just like Vince You....crap.Seriously though, making an analogy to Eric Crouch here is ridiculous. Crouch never threw the ball 30 times in a game his entire career. Tebow has done it by game 4 as a starter. Crouch averaged well under 15 attempts per game, Tebow is way over 20.But hey, both guys can run so they're the same QB, right? Just like Ryan Leaf and Peyton Manning are the same QB because they are both slow.
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Sanboy
Footballguy
anyone who is actually saying he is going to be a good NFL QB . doesnt watch College football
the guy is very so so passing .... he is ok running but that is also because the florida o-line are opening huge holes
last year he was so bad passing that they basically told everyone on the field that he wasnt going to pass ..
move along .. join ERIC CROUCH in the HAS BEEN and NEVER WAS
the guy is very so so passing .... he is ok running but that is also because the florida o-line are opening huge holes
last year he was so bad passing that they basically told everyone on the field that he wasnt going to pass ..
move along .. join ERIC CROUCH in the HAS BEEN and NEVER WAS
Just curious, but who is going to sack him? 
I'm thinking he is going to be very hard for anyone to bring down.
Would like to see some statistics of stronger linebackers in the NFL. 38 reps @ 185! Wow.
I think I know what's wrong here. White QBs that can run are subject to more criticism......right Donovan?
I'm thinking he is going to be very hard for anyone to bring down.Would like to see some statistics of stronger linebackers in the NFL. 38 reps @ 185! Wow.
I think I know what's wrong here. White QBs that can run are subject to more criticism......right Donovan?
Crusaderfan
Footballguy
If you do watch college football, you would know that last season Tebow's job wasn't to pass the ball. Chris Leak was the QB and when Tebow came into the game 85% of the time - he was running it. Everybody knew it, including the other team and he was still successful. This year Tebow is the every down QB, yeah - they still run him on QB delays etc.. but I think you will see him be more and more of a passer as he gets more experience. Last season, Tebow was kind of a change of pace guy. Not this season. I find it incredible that after 4 games as a starter, everyone assumes that what you see now is the finished product. As far as being ok running - tell that to some of the LB's that have been put on their backs by this "ok" runner.
RavenLunatic
Footballguy
I have sat ten rows back behind the Gator bench at the Swamp the past three weeks and have seen Tebow & Co. up close. He is huge, he is accurate deep and has the confidence and intagibles you want in a QB (he rifled a ten yard pass on the money for a first down while falling forward...you just had to see it to appreciate it).
However this is not the NFL and this is only his first season starting in college. He is putting up Heisman worthy numbers and if he stays healthy and keeps the numbers up will certainly be a great NFL prospect. How well he adjusts to the NFL depends on a lot of things, but as we all know the team and offensive philosphy can make or break a young QB.
Regardless, as a Gator I am glad to know he will be running the show in the Swamp for at least the next two years because this cat is awesome!!!
However this is not the NFL and this is only his first season starting in college. He is putting up Heisman worthy numbers and if he stays healthy and keeps the numbers up will certainly be a great NFL prospect. How well he adjusts to the NFL depends on a lot of things, but as we all know the team and offensive philosphy can make or break a young QB.
Regardless, as a Gator I am glad to know he will be running the show in the Swamp for at least the next two years because this cat is awesome!!!
turkishkamel
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
It's obvious that you're the one here not watching college football. Case in point...
He had 166 yards rushing today. I would gander that AT LEAST 100 of those yards were after first contact. 3 yards after he got hit was the absolute minimum yac he would get on any given play.As for the Florida o-line, this just proves your worth. They have not had a top notch O-line the last two years. They have a lot of experience this year but against Tennessee they were playing a 3rd stringer at guard from injuries. This week Pouncey (true Freshman backup) was back to plug that spot. They have been ok, and just ok. Last year they were mediocre at their best and below average at their worst.
For the second time, I do not necessarily think Tebow is going to be a good NFL QB. Although he certainly has the physical tools moreso than most any other QB prospect out there, he clearly lacks the vision and touch at this point, and whether or not he can correct that in his young career remains to be seen. That said, it has been a while since I have seen a collection of points that were more ignorant, inapplicable, and just downright incorrect than the collection of points made by the "bashers" in this thread.
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SSOG
Moderator
They absolutely don't, but I think there's a difference between a productive 8-year career and "finding a quick spot on IR". Besides, like I keep saying, there's a huge difference between 150 carries a year and 300 carries a year, and there's a huge difference between Tim Tebow and Michael Vick / Vince Young / Donovan McNabb / Randall Cunningham / Steve Young. Everyone thinks that since he runs a lot, he's the same breed, when he's really a different species entirely. He has more in common with Darren McFadden (who moonlights as a quarterback in the "Wildcat" formation) or LaDanian Tomlinson (whose passing proficiency is well known to fantasy footballers) than he does with Michael Vick. This isn't to say that Tebow is a glorified RB who throws some- he's been INSANE chucking the ball around so far in his career, both college and high school- it's just to say that Tebow is built differently.
SSOG
Moderator
As an aside, this is a big shame. I understand the reasoning behind such a risk-averse behavior, but do you know what kind of a schematic advantage it provides when your QB moonlights as an RB?To wit: on a normal running play, the QB hands the ball off for the RB, while the 5 offensive linemen and 4 other eligible receivers block for him. That gives you 9 blockers, 1 ballcarrier, and 1 guy who tries his best to stay out of the way (unless it's a reverse). When the QB becomes the ballcarrier, though, then you have all 5 OLs and *ALL FIVE* eligible receivers blocking. Basically, eliminating the handoff and letting the QB be the ballcarrier is essentially the same as running a 12-man offense on running plays. That's a huge schematic advantage.
Just think of it in terms of Xs and Os for a minute. My favorite nickname for Tebow is "The one-man playfake". He's one of the few guys who can run the playfake from an empty-backfield formation. How sick is that? You can spread the field 5-wide and it's still a running situation. The defense *ALWAYS* has to respect the threat of the run, even when you empty your backfield. In addition, if you go with a 4-wide set, it's like you're running an I-formation play with an extra receiver out in patterns, since the back in the backfield acts like a fullback for the QB (who is the ballcarrier).
On passing plays the personnel advantage disappears, since you don't have an uninvolved member in the play anymore, although there's still a huge schematic advantage in the form of moving pockets, bootlegs, play action (as I said, how sick is the threat of play action in a 5-wide formation?), etc, and there's still an advantage in how the defense has to defend you (for instance, the example of the 4-wide, 1-back set, where the defense has to play you as if you're using a traditional 3-wide I-formation). I would think that if you gave an Xs and Os offensive coach like Mike Shanahan a weapon like Tebow, and Shanahan wasn't afraid to use him to his fullest potential out of fear of injury, the results would be positively terrifying for the rest of the league. Denver's running game is already absurd, imagine what it'd be like if it was playing with what amounted to 12 men on the field.
corpcow
Footballguy
Yep... loaded. In my primary dynasty league, I have two 1sts for each of the next two drafts (plus two 2nd rounders next year, and three 3rds in 2009). Load up now, because it's gonna be a good one.
Sanboy
Footballguy
lets give a hand to the next
Josh Huepal
Josh Booty
Eric Crouch
Josh Harris
good college QB .. nothing NFL QB ..
better yet
LAST YEAR AT THIS TIME .. people on this BOARD were saying TROY SMITH was going to light the NFL on fire .. and the reason ... because he can run and WIN !!!! ..
move along nothing to see here ..
Josh Huepal
Josh Booty
Eric Crouch
Josh Harris
good college QB .. nothing NFL QB ..
better yet
LAST YEAR AT THIS TIME .. people on this BOARD were saying TROY SMITH was going to light the NFL on fire .. and the reason ... because he can run and WIN !!!! ..
move along nothing to see here ..
Doug B
Footballguy
Actually, I think Tebow's skill set and development track map closely to both Steve Young's and Donovan McNabb's. Another guy who I'd call a Tebow prototype was John Elway at Stanford. Of course, none of those guys played in an Urban Meyer offense (most notably Young), but they all had that same kind of cut-above run/pass ability compared to their contemporaries.Tebow's main difference is in being so big and strong. Elway and Young were big for their era, and Donovan's still pretty solidly built for an NFL QB. Tebow's more like a TE ... or even a 1970s pro DE prototype.
If his development continues apace, Tebow is a lock to be a top-3 NFL pick in 2009 or 2010.
SSOG
Moderator
In my mind, saying that Tebow's skill set maps closely with Steve Young's because they're both very solid run/pass options is sort of like saying that Barry Sanders was similar to Emmitt Smith because they both rushed for a lot of yards, that bats are similar to birds because they both fly, and that Superman is similar to William Shakespeare because they both wear tights. As a friend of mine is fond of saying, that's comparing apples and dump trucks.Elway and Young both had games that were, in large part, predicated on their speed. Neither were ever bruisers. Neither were the type of players that initiated contact. They flitted around would-be tacklers, darting through openings, absorbing a hit if there was no option but not really moving piles or getting yards after contact. A good RB comparison, in my mind, would be Marshall Faulk or Brian Westbrook. Tebow's game, on the other hand, is built almost entirely around his raw power. A running play designed for Elway/McNabb/Young/etc would be off-tackle or otherwise to the outside, whereas a run designed for Tebow would be right up the gut. His strength is his strength. 50+% of his yardage comes after first contact, and he gets so many yards because he's just a beast to bring down. A good RB comparison here would be Mike Alstott or Jerome Bettis. You'd design a different package of plays around Tebow than you would around any other mobile QB the league has seen, with the possible exception of Daunte Culpepper or Jared Lorenzen. I mean, how often do you design an entire package around short yardage runs for your QB without including a single QB sneak?
notapplicable
Footballguy
The thing about Tebow is that he doesn't have the athleticism that McNabb and VY posses, and quite honestly putting McNabb and VY in the same category with Tebow is quite ludacris. Tebow runs people over in college. While in college that is all fine and dandy, but lets not even consider him doing that in the NFL. He's not elusive as VY is by any means and isn't even close to being in the same league when it comes to arm with McNabb. Alex Smith just sucks.
chasyone
Footballguy
I think and HOPE Tebow stayes for 2 more years and get a National Championship as the starting QB for the Gators.He is more talented than Crouch.Tebow has an ARM.
Beergogglz
Footballguy
Steve Young down?
Doug B
Footballguy
Tebow is definitely a new breed ... but there were guys that came before him that were kind of like earlier stages in the evolution, if that makes sense. Wasn't trying to say that Tebow was exacty like Elway/Young/McNabb -- Tebow does have that power, as I credited him with above. That said, it's looked to me that Tebow is shiftier than you're giving him credit for (Alstott and Bettis had good feet, as well).
That said, an NFL starting QB will not be a contact-initiater by design. Can't risk those kinds of blows to the throwing shoulder ... or a hand injury. A dedicated RB can play through a lot of that ... wear a soft cast or whatever. An NFL QB can't, or else the opposing defense will know the guy can't throw and just sell out to stop the run.
Tebow against LSU in two weeks will be interesting. That will be the closest he'll face to an NFL defense while in college. He'll get his -- I just wonder what LSU might be able to take away from him, if anything.
That said, an NFL starting QB will not be a contact-initiater by design. Can't risk those kinds of blows to the throwing shoulder ... or a hand injury. A dedicated RB can play through a lot of that ... wear a soft cast or whatever. An NFL QB can't, or else the opposing defense will know the guy can't throw and just sell out to stop the run.
Tebow against LSU in two weeks will be interesting. That will be the closest he'll face to an NFL defense while in college. He'll get his -- I just wonder what LSU might be able to take away from him, if anything.
GoBirds
Footballguy
SSOG
Moderator
Why shouldn't we consider him doing that in the NFL? As I said, Tim Tebow is stronger than 95+% of offensive linemen. Did you say "AD ran over people in college, but let's not even consider him doing that in the NFL"? Why does that skill translate for some players, but not for Tim Tebow?I feel like people are judging Tebow by this prism through which they judge all other college QBs, when really that prism is just wholly inadequate in this instance. I still think that, as far as his running ability is concerned, a better comparison would be a Peterson or a McFadden. If their skills translate to the pros, why shouldn't Tebow's too?Also, saying that Tebow doesn't have the athleticism of Vince Young is silly, too. Vince Young ran a 4.58 40-yard dash after extensive preparation, knowing full well that millions of dollars were at stake. Tim Tebow ran a 4.67... IN HIGH SCHOOL. I see no reason why we shouldn't expect that to improve given his physical maturation as well as the benefits of a strength and conditioning program. Just because Tebow's known more for his strength than his speed doesn't mean he's somehow slow, or anything other than a complete freak of nature.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Like Chase said, you are owning this thread.I've never seen anyone playing like this guy has so far. You are exactly right that his game is built on raw power. At the game's end when the Gators were trying to nail it down by running the ball, they just had Tebow run it up the middle and he was running over guys for first downs. Unlike most running college QB's you don't wish Tebow would just tuck the ball and run with it instead of risking the pass. He's very accurate.
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Assani Fisher
Footballguy
While I think you raise several great points in this thread, you're definitely sensationalizing here. Vick was often the fastest player on the field. He was definitely "part running back." In fact, there have been quite a few QBs who are very good running backs. Sure its a big advantage and the defense will often have to use a spy on the QB, but to listen to you describe it the defense would simply have no chance.SSOG said:
Guapote
Footballguy
I'm baffled as to how anyone can have such a strong opinion about a guy who just started his fourth game, only one of which has been against quality opposition (if you consider Tennessee a quality team).
I think he could end up being a legit NFL prospect, and it's got nothing to do with his running ability. I like what I've seen of him so far as a passer. I hope he continues to develop, and shows he's capable of consistently performing at a high level against good defenses. He's got the rest of this year and all next year to get better (or not). Why can't we just wait and see?
I'll also chime in and thank SSOG for correcting some folks' uneducated opinions of Tebow, but I'm not yet ready to say that he's a lock to be a good NFL QB.
I think he could end up being a legit NFL prospect, and it's got nothing to do with his running ability. I like what I've seen of him so far as a passer. I hope he continues to develop, and shows he's capable of consistently performing at a high level against good defenses. He's got the rest of this year and all next year to get better (or not). Why can't we just wait and see?
I'll also chime in and thank SSOG for correcting some folks' uneducated opinions of Tebow, but I'm not yet ready to say that he's a lock to be a good NFL QB.
JAA
Footballguy
Warrick >>>>>> Harvin
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