War in Israel (1 Viewer)

[Snotbubbles]

We (Israel) are dealing with an enemy that wants our entire race wiped from the face of the earth.

It is literally in their charter.

As it was when the Palestinian people voted Hamas into the majority. Again, there are obviously innocent people that want no violence to come to anyone, but the idea that Hamas is some rogue element within Gaza that represents a minority opinion is nuts. Its should also be noted that within their parliament are also minority political groups like Palestinian Liberation Front and the PFLP which are both designated terrorist organizations.

Some of Hamas’ actions/policies are accepted by most Gazans, I’m sure, in part because the alternative(s) don’t seem any better. On top of that, the average citizen probably feels pretty powerless to effect real change.

But I have a hard time believing most Palestinians, even in Gaza, approve of slaughtering women, children and other “innocent” Israeli civilians.

Here's something to think about. In 2006, Hamas was voted in as government. There hasn't been an election since, so Hamas has been the de facto government for some time. Nearly half of the population of Gaza is under the age of 18. So all that portion of the population knows is Hamas, yet none of them had any hand in putting Hamas in power. Their entire upbringing and education has probably been pro-Hamas, anti-Israel. It's much like racism, people aren't born racist, it's a learned human behavior.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Unconfirmed other than on Twitter yet, but reports that the explosion occurring earlier today on the road to the the southern Gaza strip was due to either an IED or truck bomb suspected to be the work of Hamas, to keep people from leaving. Some dash cams from cars behind the explosion showed no incoming projectiles before the explosion.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Yeah, I get it. Just seems like many of the decolonization is not a metaphor-types reside in academia.

If someone as ignorant as me can glean a crude idea of the region’s history with a cursory review of what the internet has to offer, I’d expect actual scholars to be a little more logically consistent.

I’m sure those same people have no issues identifying and advocating for Native Americans, for example.

 

[ren hoek]

"Hamas is a creature of Israel."

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation."

https://x.com/rafaelshimunov/status/1712214392526303663?s=20

Israel supported (what eventually became) Hamas in the beginning. The idea was to fracture the secular nationalists from religious Islamists in Palestine. Rather than taking the chance that Palestinians would consolidate behind the more moderate PLO, they elevated this radical element in Palestine.

 

[Snotbubbles]

"Hamas is a creature of Israel."

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation."

https://x.com/rafaelshimunov/status/1712214392526303663?s=20

Israel supported (what eventually became) Hamas in the beginning. The idea was to fracture the secular nationalists from religious Islamists in Palestine. Rather than taking the chance that Palestinians would consolidate behind the more moderate PLO, they elevated this radical element in Palestine.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/11/1204923717/israel-gaza-hamas-palestinian-war

 

[parasaurolophus]

Some of Hamas’ actions/policies are accepted by most Gazans, I’m sure, in part because the alternative(s) don’t seem any better. On top of that, the average citizen probably feels pretty powerless to effect real change.

But I have a hard time believing most Palestinians, even in Gaza, approve of slaughtering women, children and other “innocent” Israeli civilians.

Because why? Why do you have a hard time believing a culture that has zero problems mistreating women and the marginalized on a daily basis could be mostly really bad people?

Where does this belief come from when there is almost zero evidence saying otherwise?

 

[parasaurolophus]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Some of Hamas’ actions/policies are accepted by most Gazans, I’m sure, in part because the alternative(s) don’t seem any better. On top of that, the average citizen probably feels pretty powerless to effect real change.

But I have a hard time believing most Palestinians, even in Gaza, approve of slaughtering women, children and other “innocent” Israeli civilians.

Because why? Why do you have a hard time believing a culture that has zero problems mistreating women and the marginalized on a daily basis could be mostly really bad people?

Where does this belief come from when there is almost zero evidence saying otherwise?

Naivety, maybe. Misogyny is one thing, indiscriminate murder is another.

While I have no doubt there is deep-seated hatred of Israel throughout Palestine, I don’t believe entire populations are evil.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

Who is taking a vague stance on Hamas?

Everybody seems to condemn their actions, at least in this thread. In the rest of America? Well, that’s a lot of diverse people, but I suspect support is still uncommon.

One can simultaneously sympathize with the plight of Palestinians, while condemning Hamas.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

Who is taking a vague stance on Hamas?

Everybody seems to condemn their actions, at least in this thread. In the rest of America? Well, that’s a lot of diverse people, but I suspect support is still uncommon.

One can simultaneously sympathize with the plight of Palestinians, while condemning Hamas.

I am talking about Palestinians in America. I should have been more clear, my bad.

 

[zazale]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

 

[Jayrod]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

 

[Jagov]

Ran into a podcast yesterday that greatly helped my understanding & context of this situation.

It is on a podcast called Preconceived and the episode is named Israel and Palestine - A Complex History.

It is 2 hours long but highly recommended.

 

[titusbramble]

Hamas's actions were disgusting, and not surprising. Israel reacting in the ways it is/is planning to do, which may well be tantamount to breaking international law and/or war crimes, is also disgusting, and not surprising. Nothing will ever change until both sides grow up and want peace

 

[zazale]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

whose propaganda am I regurgitating? it's definitely not the US/global west media apparatus. the objective history is colonial powers have supported Israel in partitioning and colonializing historically ethnically Palestinian or otherwise culturally and religiously diverse land. I'd love to see the leftist propaganda I'm using so I can spread it further

 

[djmich]

Unless you think I'm arguing that we should have intentionally killed more German civilians, I have no idea why you would think that.

I don't think you believe that. I guess maybe it is just the flippant sort of tone? I don't know, but it just comes across that way to me. Carry on

I should just post less in this thread. I'm not mad at all or anything, but looking back at the last couple of pages I think the volume is just a little much. Today was a sit-at-my-desk-and-read stuff day which leads to too much social media and too much posting.

No worries regardless. I sincerely think the "German civilian" thing is just a good mental model for how to think about situations like this. None of us feel any personal ill will toward those folks, but you know.

Just like old times. Reasonable poster posts reasonable thoughts, called heartless, posts less.

 

[Todem]

Hamas's actions were disgusting, and not surprising. Israel reacting in the ways it is/is planning to do, which may well be tantamount to breaking international law and/or war crimes, is also disgusting, and not surprising. Nothing will ever change until both sides grow up and want peace

You are just so misinformed making a statement like this.


Watch this speech from 1 year ago where Israeli Prime Minister Yair Lapid addressed the United Nations. Watch it all.

If you can’t understand what is really going on…..I just can’t anymore with this garbage.

https://www.youtube.com/live/dQVwHjFdahI?si=gsgWn2BHv4a9JFo_

 

[Todem]

This thread took a turn.

I don't think there is anything that can be said to someone who tries to rationalize/justify the slaughter of 1300 Jews last Saturday with words like colonization.

Once, I Was a Peace Advocate. Now, I Have No Idealism Left

After terrorists killed my cousin Daniel Pearl, my family called for peace. But after the worldwide celebration of our people’s slaughter, my hope for peace is dead.

www.thefp.com

That is correct. 1000%

And when I see these joint statements coming from some of our most prestigious universities. I weep for our country. I really do.

It’s disgusting. And you can bet those colleges endowment fund donations are going to get a massive hit…..massive.

It’s inexcusable and despicable.

 

[Jayrod]

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

whose propaganda am I regurgitating? it's definitely not the US/global west media apparatus. the objective history is colonial powers have supported Israel in partitioning and colonializing historically ethnically Palestinian or otherwise culturally and religiously diverse land. I'd love to see the leftist propaganda I'm using so I can spread it further

Calling anything Israel has done as "genocide" and war crimes is anti-Semetic propaganda. Claiming Netanyahu is a "Zionist extremist" is liberal propaganda.

You know full well what you are doing.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

I mean I wouldn't be aligning myself with Ben Gvir. Gvir's party is called Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power. The article below is pretty damning on the ideology that Gvir subscribes to.

Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos

As unrest roils the country, a controversial figure from the far right helps Benjamin Netanyahu hold on to power.

www.newyorker.com

Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.

There, a rabbi named Yehuda Kreuzer imparted the tenets of Kahanism: that the idea of coexistence with Israel’s Arab population, which makes up twenty-one per cent of the country, is, as Ben-Gvir puts it, “babble” (Kahane: “there’s no coexistence with cancer”); that Jewish women should be saved from Arab men (Kahane: “the incredible pollution of the sacred Jewish seed”); and that the “path” to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an “exchange of populations.” In other words: Palestinian expulsion from Greater Israel, territory that includes the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Ben-Gvir made an early career of stoking that kind of hatred. As a young Kahanist, he heckled stage actors known for leftist views, and handed out eggs to throw at marchers in gay-pride parades. For Purim, he would dress up as Baruch Goldstein, the Hebron mass murderer. In 2011, he invited the press to a public pool in Tel Aviv, where he appeared with forty Sudanese migrant workers. He bought them all tickets to enter the pool, and, while cameras rolled, handed them swimsuits. “I want all the pampered Tel Avivians to understand that if we give human rights to the Sudanese they will come here,” he told reporters. Laughing, he called out to the migrants, in English, “Swim! Swim!”

 

[Jayrod]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

I mean I wouldn't be aligning myself with Ben Gvir. Gvir's party is called Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power. The article below is pretty damning on the ideology that Gvir subscribes to.

Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos

As unrest roils the country, a controversial figure from the far right helps Benjamin Netanyahu hold on to power.

www.newyorker.com

Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.

There, a rabbi named Yehuda Kreuzer imparted the tenets of Kahanism: that the idea of coexistence with Israel’s Arab population, which makes up twenty-one per cent of the country, is, as Ben-Gvir puts it, “babble” (Kahane: “there’s no coexistence with cancer”); that Jewish women should be saved from Arab men (Kahane: “the incredible pollution of the sacred Jewish seed”); and that the “path” to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an “exchange of populations.” In other words: Palestinian expulsion from Greater Israel, territory that includes the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Ben-Gvir made an early career of stoking that kind of hatred. As a young Kahanist, he heckled stage actors known for leftist views, and handed out eggs to throw at marchers in gay-pride parades. For Purim, he would dress up as Baruch Goldstein, the Hebron mass murderer. In 2011, he invited the press to a public pool in Tel Aviv, where he appeared with forty Sudanese migrant workers. He bought them all tickets to enter the pool, and, while cameras rolled, handed them swimsuits. “I want all the pampered Tel Avivians to understand that if we give human rights to the Sudanese they will come here,” he told reporters. Laughing, he called out to the migrants, in English, “Swim! Swim!”

Including some truth with the lie is a pretty standard propaganda technique.

 

[Manster]

Some of the protests on college campuses are absolutely insane and should be a clear warning of young adults being indoctrinated with false propaganda in this day of social media. We are being destroyed from within.

Social media is also exposing atrocities committed by Hamas. There will still be some deniers, but I think social media is a net benefit in this situation.

***i don't understand the love of hamas specifically BLM and DSA or apparently by some of our universities.*** edited

they stand against so many things that they consider foundational truths

women's rights
religious freedom
free speech
fair elections
etc

yet you have these "intellectuals" at these universities throwing their full support at them and condemning Israel.

Look, i get it. Israel has done a lot of things i disagree with (settlers for example), but i also haven't been in any situation like them living in constant threat. There were over 500 attempted suicide attacks during the second intifadah. Of course israel built a wall and closed off access. Hell, we are trying to build a wall with Mexico and I'm not aware of any suicide attacks there.

But that doesn't justify let alone blame israel for these hamas attacks. this won't be liked, but the statement "well, the girl was raped because of her clothes" is akin to this.

You can be sympathetic when Israel starts responding and Palestinians start dying. But to not IMMEDIATELY come out and condemn is cowardice and evil.

And if you, or your representative, supported DSR and were not shocked and horrified by their response then you are supporting murder/evil.

sorry for the rant. not directed at you SobeDad.

It's very popular among a certain segment of our society to sympathize with those who hate the western world. I wonder how these folks would feel if they, or their loved ones were being targeted.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

I mean I wouldn't be aligning myself with Ben Gvir. Gvir's party is called Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power. The article below is pretty damning on the ideology that Gvir subscribes to.

Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos

As unrest roils the country, a controversial figure from the far right helps Benjamin Netanyahu hold on to power.

www.newyorker.com

Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.

There, a rabbi named Yehuda Kreuzer imparted the tenets of Kahanism: that the idea of coexistence with Israel’s Arab population, which makes up twenty-one per cent of the country, is, as Ben-Gvir puts it, “babble” (Kahane: “there’s no coexistence with cancer”); that Jewish women should be saved from Arab men (Kahane: “the incredible pollution of the sacred Jewish seed”); and that the “path” to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an “exchange of populations.” In other words: Palestinian expulsion from Greater Israel, territory that includes the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Ben-Gvir made an early career of stoking that kind of hatred. As a young Kahanist, he heckled stage actors known for leftist views, and handed out eggs to throw at marchers in gay-pride parades. For Purim, he would dress up as Baruch Goldstein, the Hebron mass murderer. In 2011, he invited the press to a public pool in Tel Aviv, where he appeared with forty Sudanese migrant workers. He bought them all tickets to enter the pool, and, while cameras rolled, handed them swimsuits. “I want all the pampered Tel Avivians to understand that if we give human rights to the Sudanese they will come here,” he told reporters. Laughing, he called out to the migrants, in English, “Swim! Swim!”

Including some truth with the lie is a pretty standard propaganda technique.

I see, the New Yorker is propaganda for the pro-Palestine movement. What news outlets would you say aren't? How about NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/26/1139266678/israel-appoints-far-right-politician-with-a-history-of-inciting-racism-as-nation

Just 15 years ago, he was convicted in Israeli court for inciting racism and supporting an anti-Arab movement which Israel has outlawed as a terrorist organization.

He is demanding unprecedented power over police policy. In that sense, we're also concerned about private Jewish militias that have in the past tried to take on the role of the police or collaborate with police. We are worried that this government, these violent extremist militias, will have a much more prominent role.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/11/1204923717/israel-gaza-hamas-palestinian-war

"He nominated someone who was convicted for eight times in inciting violence against Arabs," Schneider said, referring to Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of national security. "This is someone who was outlawed, who was for us Israelis, someone who was not supposed to sit in government. Netanyahu made him a strong leader and someone who is fully engaged in politics."

Ben-Gvir, along with Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, pushed for more settlements in the occupied West Bank, escalating tensions with Palestinians.

"The war Cabinet of Netanyahu was completely dysfunctional with them," Schneider said.

No? How about the Associated Press.

Far-right Ben-Gvir to be Israel's national security minister

Extremist politician Itamar Ben-Gvir will become Israel’s next minister of national security. That's according to the first of what are expected to be several coalition deals struck by former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud.

apnews.com

The awarding of the sensitive role to Ben-Gvir raises concerns of a further escalation in Israeli-Palestinian tensions. Ben-Gvir and his allies hope to grant immunity to Israeli soldiers who shoot at Palestinians, deport rival lawmakers and impose the death penalty on Palestinians convicted of attacks on Jews.

Ben-Gvir is the disciple of a racist rabbi, Meir Kahane, who was banned from Parliament and whose Kach party was branded a terrorist group by the United States before he was assassinated in New York in 1990.

Ahead of Israel’s Nov. 1 election, Ben-Gvir grabbed headlines for his anti-Palestinian speeches and stunts, including brandishing a pistol and encouraging police to open fire on Palestinian stone-throwers in a tense Jerusalem neighborhood.


Before becoming a lawyer and entering politics, he was convicted of offenses that include inciting racism and supporting a terrorist organization.

In his new role, he would be in charge of the police, among other things, enabling him to implement some of the hard-line policies against the Palestinians he has advocated for years.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it doesn't matter where the source material comes from, you'd never admit that at the very least Ben Gvir isn't a good for Israel/Palestine relations and should not be part of Netanyahu's Cabinet. Netanyahu aligned with him to keep his own power since Gvir has a large-radical base. The United States government knows what a POS Gvir is and wants nothing to do with him (https://www.timesofisrael.com/netan...wmakers-warning-against-ben-gvir-partnership/)

 

[higgins]

Deep breath, people -- some of us want this thread to stay standing.

 

[timschochet]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

It seems we're now at a point where simply acknowledging there may be some historical nuance in allocating blame and responsibility on both sides of this thousand+ year conflict in which countless atrocities have been committed by all involved results in being branded an ignorant anti-semite. This is where these discussions always end up, as far back as I can remember. It seems incredibly naive to view the Israel-Palestine conflict as a simple matter we can all easily understand in simple black/white good/evil terms by reading a tweet or watching a youtube. I spent a great deal of time and energy in college over 30 years ago trying to educate myself on the middle east conflict, only to conclude it was a waste of time as there is no hope for reasoned discussion or debate to work toward a conclusion. I've posted about this before - going to see men like Meir Kahane and Edward Said speak on campus only to find neither was able to get more than a few minutes into it. Both are now long dead, having accomplished nothing, and both their deaths were celebrated. The actions of this past week and the coming weeks will solve nothing and change nothing while tens of thousands innocents die. This discussion served a good purpose as of a few days ago but now there's no news being reported or discussed here, as most of us likely expected.

 

[dickey moe]

Making a plea for everyone to try to remain civil. If you find yourself arriving to a state of argument rather than discussion, might be a good idea to take a break from the thread for awhile. Thank you.

 

[Jayrod]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

I mean I wouldn't be aligning myself with Ben Gvir. Gvir's party is called Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power. The article below is pretty damning on the ideology that Gvir subscribes to.

Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos

As unrest roils the country, a controversial figure from the far right helps Benjamin Netanyahu hold on to power.

www.newyorker.com

Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.

There, a rabbi named Yehuda Kreuzer imparted the tenets of Kahanism: that the idea of coexistence with Israel’s Arab population, which makes up twenty-one per cent of the country, is, as Ben-Gvir puts it, “babble” (Kahane: “there’s no coexistence with cancer”); that Jewish women should be saved from Arab men (Kahane: “the incredible pollution of the sacred Jewish seed”); and that the “path” to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an “exchange of populations.” In other words: Palestinian expulsion from Greater Israel, territory that includes the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Ben-Gvir made an early career of stoking that kind of hatred. As a young Kahanist, he heckled stage actors known for leftist views, and handed out eggs to throw at marchers in gay-pride parades. For Purim, he would dress up as Baruch Goldstein, the Hebron mass murderer. In 2011, he invited the press to a public pool in Tel Aviv, where he appeared with forty Sudanese migrant workers. He bought them all tickets to enter the pool, and, while cameras rolled, handed them swimsuits. “I want all the pampered Tel Avivians to understand that if we give human rights to the Sudanese they will come here,” he told reporters. Laughing, he called out to the migrants, in English, “Swim! Swim!”

Including some truth with the lie is a pretty standard propaganda technique.

I see, the New Yorker is propaganda for the pro-Palestine movement. What news outlets would you say aren't? How about NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/26/1139266678/israel-appoints-far-right-politician-with-a-history-of-inciting-racism-as-nation

Just 15 years ago, he was convicted in Israeli court for inciting racism and supporting an anti-Arab movement which Israel has outlawed as a terrorist organization.

He is demanding unprecedented power over police policy. In that sense, we're also concerned about private Jewish militias that have in the past tried to take on the role of the police or collaborate with police. We are worried that this government, these violent extremist militias, will have a much more prominent role.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/11/1204923717/israel-gaza-hamas-palestinian-war

"He nominated someone who was convicted for eight times in inciting violence against Arabs," Schneider said, referring to Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of national security. "This is someone who was outlawed, who was for us Israelis, someone who was not supposed to sit in government. Netanyahu made him a strong leader and someone who is fully engaged in politics."

Ben-Gvir, along with Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, pushed for more settlements in the occupied West Bank, escalating tensions with Palestinians.

"The war Cabinet of Netanyahu was completely dysfunctional with them," Schneider said.

No? How about the Associated Press.

Far-right Ben-Gvir to be Israel's national security minister

Extremist politician Itamar Ben-Gvir will become Israel’s next minister of national security. That's according to the first of what are expected to be several coalition deals struck by former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud.

apnews.com

The awarding of the sensitive role to Ben-Gvir raises concerns of a further escalation in Israeli-Palestinian tensions. Ben-Gvir and his allies hope to grant immunity to Israeli soldiers who shoot at Palestinians, deport rival lawmakers and impose the death penalty on Palestinians convicted of attacks on Jews.

Ben-Gvir is the disciple of a racist rabbi, Meir Kahane, who was banned from Parliament and whose Kach party was branded a terrorist group by the United States before he was assassinated in New York in 1990.

Ahead of Israel’s Nov. 1 election, Ben-Gvir grabbed headlines for his anti-Palestinian speeches and stunts, including brandishing a pistol and encouraging police to open fire on Palestinian stone-throwers in a tense Jerusalem neighborhood.


Before becoming a lawyer and entering politics, he was convicted of offenses that include inciting racism and supporting a terrorist organization.

In his new role, he would be in charge of the police, among other things, enabling him to implement some of the hard-line policies against the Palestinians he has advocated for years.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it doesn't matter where the source material comes from, you'd never admit that at the very least Ben Gvir isn't a good for Israel/Palestine relations and should not be part of Netanyahu's Cabinet. Netanyahu aligned with him to keep his own power since Gvir has a large-radical base. The United States government knows what a POS Gvir is and wants nothing to do with him (https://www.timesofisrael.com/netan...wmakers-warning-against-ben-gvir-partnership/)

I'll gladly concede Gvir is a bad actor.

Reread the exchange you are replying to. I took exception at two points.

1. Accusing Israel of genocide is a false position and a standard anti-Semite position. It is like accusing an African-American organization of being slave owners because they enforced a contract.
2. Accusing Netanyahu of being a Zionist extremist. It is a standard propaganda technique to make your opponents seem unhinged and on the fringe.

I never wrote a single word about Gvir, yet you've made that your entire focus.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

It won't make Israel safer. What it could do is unite the Arab world against Israel and possibly draw the United States into a conflict. I've made some posts above about Ben Gvir, having a guy like that in the Israeli Cabinet is a sign that Israel has the potential to go even further right in the future and make the tensions in the area even worse.

 

[Jayrod]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

I mean I wouldn't be aligning myself with Ben Gvir. Gvir's party is called Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power. The article below is pretty damning on the ideology that Gvir subscribes to.

Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s Minister of Chaos

As unrest roils the country, a controversial figure from the far right helps Benjamin Netanyahu hold on to power.

www.newyorker.com

Ben-Gvir, who is forty-six, has been convicted on at least eight charges, including supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism, compiling a criminal record so long that, when he appeared before a judge, “we had to change the ink on the printer,” Dvir Kariv, a former official in the Shin Bet intelligence agency, told me. As recently as last October, Netanyahu refused to share a stage with him, or even to be seen with him in photographs. But a series of disappointing elections persuaded Netanyahu to change his mind.

There, a rabbi named Yehuda Kreuzer imparted the tenets of Kahanism: that the idea of coexistence with Israel’s Arab population, which makes up twenty-one per cent of the country, is, as Ben-Gvir puts it, “babble” (Kahane: “there’s no coexistence with cancer”); that Jewish women should be saved from Arab men (Kahane: “the incredible pollution of the sacred Jewish seed”); and that the “path” to solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is an “exchange of populations.” In other words: Palestinian expulsion from Greater Israel, territory that includes the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Ben-Gvir made an early career of stoking that kind of hatred. As a young Kahanist, he heckled stage actors known for leftist views, and handed out eggs to throw at marchers in gay-pride parades. For Purim, he would dress up as Baruch Goldstein, the Hebron mass murderer. In 2011, he invited the press to a public pool in Tel Aviv, where he appeared with forty Sudanese migrant workers. He bought them all tickets to enter the pool, and, while cameras rolled, handed them swimsuits. “I want all the pampered Tel Avivians to understand that if we give human rights to the Sudanese they will come here,” he told reporters. Laughing, he called out to the migrants, in English, “Swim! Swim!”

Including some truth with the lie is a pretty standard propaganda technique.

I see, the New Yorker is propaganda for the pro-Palestine movement. What news outlets would you say aren't? How about NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/26/1139266678/israel-appoints-far-right-politician-with-a-history-of-inciting-racism-as-nation

Just 15 years ago, he was convicted in Israeli court for inciting racism and supporting an anti-Arab movement which Israel has outlawed as a terrorist organization.

He is demanding unprecedented power over police policy. In that sense, we're also concerned about private Jewish militias that have in the past tried to take on the role of the police or collaborate with police. We are worried that this government, these violent extremist militias, will have a much more prominent role.

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/11/1204923717/israel-gaza-hamas-palestinian-war

"He nominated someone who was convicted for eight times in inciting violence against Arabs," Schneider said, referring to Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of national security. "This is someone who was outlawed, who was for us Israelis, someone who was not supposed to sit in government. Netanyahu made him a strong leader and someone who is fully engaged in politics."

Ben-Gvir, along with Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich, pushed for more settlements in the occupied West Bank, escalating tensions with Palestinians.

"The war Cabinet of Netanyahu was completely dysfunctional with them," Schneider said.

No? How about the Associated Press.

Far-right Ben-Gvir to be Israel's national security minister

Extremist politician Itamar Ben-Gvir will become Israel’s next minister of national security. That's according to the first of what are expected to be several coalition deals struck by former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud.

apnews.com

The awarding of the sensitive role to Ben-Gvir raises concerns of a further escalation in Israeli-Palestinian tensions. Ben-Gvir and his allies hope to grant immunity to Israeli soldiers who shoot at Palestinians, deport rival lawmakers and impose the death penalty on Palestinians convicted of attacks on Jews.

Ben-Gvir is the disciple of a racist rabbi, Meir Kahane, who was banned from Parliament and whose Kach party was branded a terrorist group by the United States before he was assassinated in New York in 1990.

Ahead of Israel’s Nov. 1 election, Ben-Gvir grabbed headlines for his anti-Palestinian speeches and stunts, including brandishing a pistol and encouraging police to open fire on Palestinian stone-throwers in a tense Jerusalem neighborhood.


Before becoming a lawyer and entering politics, he was convicted of offenses that include inciting racism and supporting a terrorist organization.

In his new role, he would be in charge of the police, among other things, enabling him to implement some of the hard-line policies against the Palestinians he has advocated for years.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it doesn't matter where the source material comes from, you'd never admit that at the very least Ben Gvir isn't a good for Israel/Palestine relations and should not be part of Netanyahu's Cabinet. Netanyahu aligned with him to keep his own power since Gvir has a large-radical base. The United States government knows what a POS Gvir is and wants nothing to do with him (https://www.timesofisrael.com/netan...wmakers-warning-against-ben-gvir-partnership/)

I'll gladly concede Gvir is a bad actor.

Reread the exchange you are replying to. I took exception at two points.

1. Accusing Israel of genocide is a false position and a standard anti-Semite position. It is like accusing an African-American organization of being slave owners because they enforced a contract.
2. Accusing Netanyahu of being a Zionist extremist. It is a standard propaganda technique to make your opponents seem unhinged and on the fringe.

I never wrote a single word about Gvir, yet you've made that your entire focus.

Because Netanyahu has aligned with Gvir and therefore, Gvir is part and parcel of the Netanyahu government.

 

[Jayrod]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

It won't make Israel safer. What it could do is unite the Arab world against Israel and possibly draw the United States into a conflict. I've made some posts above about Ben Gvir, having a guy like that in the Israeli Cabinet is a sign that Israel has the potential to go even further right in the future and make the tensions in the area even worse.

How do you think Gvir got to be like he is? You think Hamas' actions won't create more Zionists?
Is Iran not responsible for Gaza's plight at all?

 

[timschochet]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

I get that stance, but I think you are short sighted in thinking a lighter or more peaceful response will somehow keep the terrorists at bay. They won't quit until Jewish Israel is destroyed, they've made that clear for decades now.

I don’t disagree with you necessarily. I don’t have a good answer as to what Israel should do. I only know that making things worse doesn’t seem like that good answer.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

It won't make Israel safer. What it could do is unite the Arab world against Israel and possibly draw the United States into a conflict. I've made some posts above about Ben Gvir, having a guy like that in the Israeli Cabinet is a sign that Israel has the potential to go even further right in the future and make the tensions in the area even worse.

How do you think Gvir got to be like he is? You think Hamas' actions won't create more Zionists?
Is Iran not responsible for Gaza's plight at all?

How do you think that Palestinians got the way they were? You think Gvir actions won't create more Hamas-like actors?
Is Israel not responsible for Gaza's plight at all?

 

[Jayrod]

Yeah, I'm done there. Not beating my head against that brick wall anymore.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Yeah, I'm done there. Not beating my head against that brick wall anymore.

Probably best for most everyone in this one. As someone mentioned, it was good for a bit but now is becoming the PSF.

 

[AAABatteries]

Let’s say I’m Jewish or Palestinian and while I’m still a religious believer and “support” my side I’m tired of all of this - how easy is it to just move or realistic to be able to do so?

I don’t want to sound naive and imply they should as I have zero clue how easy it would be but as an American who has never faced anything remotely close to what either side has faced it seems to me the obvious choice for those who just want to live their life away from all of this is to move.

And to be clear, I’m talking about prior to the war breaking out - I realize borders are closed and opportunities aren’t currently available.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

I agree with your side of that micro-discussion, but this is exactly the kind of snarky, personal attack reply that is going to get this thread locked. I've been enjoying reading this thread so let's do JB a solid here and not make him have to make the tough call with posts like this.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Let’s say I’m Jewish or Palestinian and while I’m still a religious believer and “support” my side I’m tired of all of this - how easy is it to just move or realistic to be able to do so?

I don’t want to sound naive and imply they should as I have zero clue how easy it would be but as an American who has never faced anything remotely close to what either side has faced it seems to me the obvious choice for those who just want to live their life away from all of this is to move.

And to be clear, I’m talking about prior to the war breaking out - I realize borders are closed and opportunities aren’t currently available.

Israel maintains a strict restriction of movement policy. There have been a number of signed agreements between Israel and the PA to allow movement between Gaza and the West Bank, the last in 2005 but non have been implemented.

Israel does not allow operating air and seaports in Gaza in violation with subsequent agreements between Israel and the Palestinians.

The Gaza Airport, funded by donor countries, has been destroyed by Israeli bombardments and bulldozers. A Gaza Seaport project, started in 2000, was destroyed by the Israeli army, a few months after the construction had begun.

Even between the 3 territories it occupies which have been agreed to be one contiguous future state, East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza, Israel only allows movement to Palestinians with special permits which it rarely issues.

As part of the blockade on the Gaza Strip, Israel prohibits Palestinians from entering and leaving the area except in extremely rare cases, which include urgent, life-threatening medical conditions and a very short list of merchants.

Israel also controls Palestinian travel inside the West Bank. Two major checkpoints split the West Bank in three: The Za’atara checkpoint between Nablus and Ramallah, which is staffed some of the time, and the Container checkpoint east of Abu Dis, which is always staffed. The traffic arteries, together with other checkpoints and roadblocks, direct all Palestinian traffic moving between the north and south of the West Bank into the roads that are controlled by these two checkpoints. The military has also installed iron gates at the entrances to the vast majority of West Bank villages, allowing it to isolate them within minutes and with minimal personnel.

According to Human Right Watch as at 2017 there were 98 Checkpoints in the West Bank.

To enforce the movement restrictions, Israel instituted a permit system that requires all Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territories to obtain a permit in order to enter Israel, East Jerusalem included, for any purpose whatsoever including to travel abroad. As part of its blockade policy, Israel refuses to issue such permits to residents of Gaza, with rare exceptions.

Applicants have no way of assessing the chances that their applications will be approved or how soon. Many applications are denied without explanation, with no real avenue for appeal. In addition, permits already granted are easily revoked, also without explanation. Palestinian farmers must apply for permits to access their own land and renew them repeatedly. Restrictions are imposed on anyone who is not a landowner, and on bringing in farming equipment.

Israeli authorities by and large deny Palestinians international travel via its sea ports or the Ben Gurion International Airport, the only avenue available to them for travel abroad is the Allenby Bridge Border Crossing, located about 5 kilometers east of Jericho. According to figures by the Palestinian Border and Crossing Authority, 809,559 Palestinians used the Allenby Bridge Crossing in 2015, and 907,825 in 2016. In most cases, Palestinians traveling abroad do not know if they will actually manage to do so until they reach Allenby Bridge. If Israel has placed them under a ban, they find out only then. They prepare for the trip, say goodbye to friends and relatives, arrive at the crossing with luggage in hand, and only then, find out it was all for nothing.

Between 2014 and 2016, Israeli human rights NGO HaMoked: Center for the Defence of the Individual filed 476 travel ban appeals to the Civil Administration. In 203 cases, the ban was lifted after the appeal was filed. In 213 of the remaining cases, HaMoked filed High Court petitions, and in 108 of these, the ban was lifted, most even prior to the preliminary court hearing. Overall, in 65% of the cases in which HaMoked challenged a travel ban, the ban was lifted - indicating it had been unjustified in the first place.

According to Palestinian Border and Crossing Authority’s figures, in 2016 Israel denied travel abroad to 2,262 West Bank residents who arrived at the Allenby Bridge border crossing.

There are hundreds of examples of husbands and wives being seperated, diaspora Palestinians not being able to return to see their families and many not returning in fear of being trapped in Gaza or the West Bank and not being able to get out.

Many Palestinians don't even bother trying to apply because they could lose money for their prepaid travels and not be allowed to leave, even when permits are issued.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

It depends how far they take it.

If they root out 95% of Hamas, they will be safer for years to come.

The whole narrative of just fueling the next generation of hate implies that there wouldn't have been a next generation of hate if they acted differently.

There is literally nothing to point to that being the really real world. I don't mean that hyperbolically. There is literally nothing.

I mean little kids cheering in the streets ran after the trucks parading dead bodies.

And that was BEFORE the retaliation.

 

[Todem]

Yeah there is nothing more to discuss here.

No new news is really happening yet.

And all we are doing is starting to bubble up. Quite frankly there is zero justification for murdering 1200 plus innocent people……and sitting here trying to have a rational discussion about irrational people who carried this out is the very definition of insanity.

The strip of land called Gaza is the primary breeding ground of hate, destruction and the want for a genocide and destruction of a free nation.

If you can’t comprehend what is going on and what it is going to take to wipe this scourge out so Israel and democracy can flourish in relative safety…..move on.

There is no rational discussion when it comes to matters of survival. There simply is not.

Israel has bent over backwards in the name of peace….over and over and over and over.

Those that have been brainwashed by islamic jihad propaganda…..good luck to you.

But again….nothing to discuss here. And I won’t get into name calling and posting toxic responses.


I believe what I believe…..and truth is what I see and know In my heart. It disgusts me how some people perceive Israel which has been a free thriving democratic country surrounded by many hostile, corrupt, murderous countries since her birth.

You want to know why the USA has two of our biggest Air Craft Carriers sitting in the Mediterranean sea? Because Israel is our countries biggest ally in the middle east and an extension of us. Yes understand Israel is an extension of the USA’s needed presence in the middle east to potentially prevent WWIII with nations actively trying to obtain nuclear capabilities every single day.

The seriousness of what is going on and the absolute pandering of some people in our country is astounding. Truly astounding.

I pray for peace after Israel carries out what it needs to do to “Survive” and never have a massacre like this ever occur again.

@tim

Get worse? No….after this is over there will be far more safety for decades god willing.

It can’t get any worse…..only if they let it….and that is clearly not going to happen.

Be well everyone.

 

[unckeyherb]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They sent terrorists in to rape and murder innocent civilians. If, what many people say is true, and the run of the mill Palestinian holds no ill-will toward Israel or Jews in general, then the complete and total annihilation of Hamas would of course maker them safer. Unfortunately in order to actually accomplish this, they will have to go scorched earth, which is why they are telling civilians to get out of the north. I'm not sure how destroying Hamas would make things worse.

 

[top dog]

Now the US is publicly warning Iran to to stay out of it. This has serious potential to get very ugly this next week. If Hezbollah opens up a front I think we stay out of it other than providing arms and what not but if Iran itself gets involved... Having a son who did a tour in Iraq just a few short years ago and is still in the guard... Let's just say I'm not exactly feeling very happy about it all right now.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mollyb...-urges-iran-not-to-intervene/?sh=194730e82a6f

 

[timschochet]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They sent terrorists in to rape and murder innocent civilians. If, what many people say is true, and the run of the mill Palestinian holds no ill-will toward Israel or Jews in general, then the complete and total annihilation of Hamas would of course maker them safer. Unfortunately in order to actually accomplish this, they will have to go scorched earth, which is why they are telling civilians to get out of the north. I'm not sure how destroying Hamas would make things worse.

Because you can’t destroy Hamas without also destroying the homes of nearly 2 million people. What then? In addition Hezbollah is warning they will get involved. In addition, it could bring about an overthrow of Fatah in the West Bank, in addition it will be very costly, bloody and difficult and the consequences are impossible to fully predict,

I’m not saying that Israel is making the wrong decision here necessarily. I’m saying that I’m worried about it and I don’t like what I’m seeing.

 

[Jayrod]

I am normally not real big on the whole "do you condemn" but some of those questions aren't hard. Do you condemn Hamas being asked to people in America should be a super easy answer. But it isn't. They almost never answer, and if they do it is a bunch of yeah buts or they get mad and try to turn it.

Do you condemn hitler?
Do you condemn Stalin?
Do you condemn Richard Ramirez?
Do you condemn Hamas?

These are all easy answers, unless you only kinda sorta maybe think sometimes they are bad a little but not so much mostly sometimes.

yes, I absolutely condemn western-backed and -funded Israel's asymmetrical committing of war crimes and excuses to do genocide at the hands of Zionist extremists like Netanyahu and Ben Gvir. that was an extraordinarily easy question to answer, yes

Nice propaganda piece. You used all of the right words you've been programmed to use.

Now maybe read some history and think for yourself.

I agree with your side of that micro-discussion, but this is exactly the kind of snarky, personal attack reply that is going to get this thread locked. I've been enjoying reading this thread so let's do JB a solid here and not make him have to make the tough call with posts like this.

1. If you agree with me than you understand why I responded like I did. I don't think this is time to play nice and stay PC. That kind of thinking is what has allowed this atrocity to happen, IMO. If I see anti-Semetic propaganda, I'm calling it out. You use the words "genocide", "Apartheid state" or "ethnic cleansing" to describe Israel and I'm calling it out.
2. What about his snarky comments? The post I responded to was equally as snarky as mine, which is why I responded in kind. Why call me out and not him?

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

a brief and succinct summary of the history of the conflict here

Your Guide to Understanding the Roots of the Israel-Hamas War

The struggle between Arabs and Jews over ownership of the Holy Land dates back more than a century and has given rise to seven major wars. The latest broke out Oct. 7 when the Islamist Palestinian group Hamas, which is dedicated to Israel’s destruction and which the US and European Union have...

www.bloomberg.com

 

[unckeyherb]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They sent terrorists in to rape and murder innocent civilians. If, what many people say is true, and the run of the mill Palestinian holds no ill-will toward Israel or Jews in general, then the complete and total annihilation of Hamas would of course maker them safer. Unfortunately in order to actually accomplish this, they will have to go scorched earth, which is why they are telling civilians to get out of the north. I'm not sure how destroying Hamas would make things worse.

Because you can’t destroy Hamas without also destroying the homes of nearly 2 million people. What then? In addition Hezbollah is warning they will get involved. In addition, it could bring about an overthrow of Fatah in the West Bank, in addition it will be very costly, bloody and difficult and the consequences are impossible to fully predict,

I’m not saying that Israel is making the wrong decision here necessarily. I’m saying that I’m worried about it and I don’t like what I’m seeing.

Yeah war is awful. Israel didn’t start this but they will finish it. Destroy what needs to be destroyed and then help to rebuild. You can’t allow Hamas to continue because you’re afraid of creating new Hamas members.

Like @IvanKaramazov said pages back, we were able to do this in Germany w/r/t the nazis without much self doubt. This situation is not much different but for some reason a lot of people regard it much differently.

 

[Courtjester]

So talking heads are proposing a land invasion will just create a whole new generation of Hamas recruits 20 years from now, but why is it not then logical to believe the actions of Hamas and what they did first to prompt this reaction by Israel just created a whole new generation of young Jewish people that will hate Hamas 20 years from now. There are excuses being made for one side and totally not even being considered for the other.

My hope in all this is (and maybe this just naivete on my part) is that the presence of two American carrier groups either in the region now or on the way, will make Iran think twice before doing anything. Iran will need Russian support to make anything happen and right now the Russians are stretched about a thin as they can get economically and militarily with the Ukrainian situation.

 

[timschochet]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They sent terrorists in to rape and murder innocent civilians. If, what many people say is true, and the run of the mill Palestinian holds no ill-will toward Israel or Jews in general, then the complete and total annihilation of Hamas would of course maker them safer. Unfortunately in order to actually accomplish this, they will have to go scorched earth, which is why they are telling civilians to get out of the north. I'm not sure how destroying Hamas would make things worse.

Because you can’t destroy Hamas without also destroying the homes of nearly 2 million people. What then? In addition Hezbollah is warning they will get involved. In addition, it could bring about an overthrow of Fatah in the West Bank, in addition it will be very costly, bloody and difficult and the consequences are impossible to fully predict,

I’m not saying that Israel is making the wrong decision here necessarily. I’m saying that I’m worried about it and I don’t like what I’m seeing.

Yeah war is awful. Israel didn’t start this but they will finish it. Destroy what needs to be destroyed and then help to rebuild. You can’t allow Hamas to continue because you’re afraid of creating new Hamas members.

Like @IvanKaramazov said pages back, we were able to do this in Germany w/r/t the nazis without much self doubt. This situation is not much different but for some reason a lot of people regard it much differently.

And as I pointed out in response to Ivan we were able to do it in Germany because we treated the Germans humanely. The Russians didn’t treat them humanely and their occupation of East Germany was a 40 year tragedy as bad for the Russians as it was for the Germans. And THAT is the lesson we can take from that experience ,

 

[timschochet]

So talking heads are proposing a land invasion will just create a whole new generation of Hamas recruits 20 years from now, but why is it not then logical to believe the actions of Hamas and what they did first to prompt this reaction by Israel just created a whole new generation of young Jewish people that will hate Hamas 20 years from now. There are excuses being made for one side and totally not even being considered for the other.

My hope in all this is (and maybe this just naivete on my part) is that the presence of two American carrier groups either in the region now or on the way, will make Iran think twice before doing anything. Iran will need Russian support to make anything happen and right now the Russians are stretched about a thin as they can get economically and militarily with the Ukrainian situation.

More worried about Hezbollah than Iran. Iran supports Hezbollah but they don’t control them