Jayrod
Footballguy
Fair enough.
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War in Israel (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter dickey moe
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Not that I've seen. My guess is that you end up with some sort of re-occupation of Gaza, but probably Israel has a small menu of options that they'll choose from once they see how everything shakes out.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Informative to read about the extensive and sophisticated tunnel network underneath Gaza. I can better understand the logic, then, of Israel seeking to move Palestinians to the south. To neutralize the threat, Israel needs to destroy those tunnels. But to do so, they need to clear the area, particularly in the north.
SWC
Bromigo
i think a part of peoples reaction to this situation is related to the current political climate in the usa where there is a definite line between the haves and the have nots i think a lot of people who view themselves on the have not side sympathize with the palestinians who have been kept in an open air prison or as some have said a concentration camp with limited access to food water and power and the outside world in the gaza strip for the better part of two decades and who in the west bank have had their land and homes taken from them now there are a list of justifications that people like jayrod have stated above for those actions and im not speaking to right andwrong but rather to why i think at least some sympathize with the palestinians and please note that i am drawing a hard line between palestinians and hamas take that to the bank brohans
Jayrod
Footballguy
There is a pretty wide range, but the Gaza post-war hinges on three scales:
1. Rebuild scale - from leave it as is after this is over to completely fund and manage a rebuilding to 1st world standards
2. Occupation scale - from completely leave and no Israelis remain to completely occupy and allow no Palestinians back in
3. Control scale - from complete control and assimilate as part of Israeli territory to completely abandon and let Palestinians (or whoever) manage everything.
My guess would be Israel will fund and manage most of the rebuilding with minimal occupation but lots of Israeli control.
Of course if things expand and this encompasses a wider region (i.e. West Bank and/or Lebanon) then there is a lot more at play and third parties would likely become involved.
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Interesting thread on Palestinian public opinion. Overall, very discouraging, particularly the part about how a large majority still believe that Israel will cease to exist in the future. Maybe they're delusional, maybe they've been brainwashed, or maybe they've concluded that it's no less unrealistic than, say, the Palestinian Authority negotiating a peaceful solution with Israel. But it's definitely super-depressing
The General
Footballguy
I wonder how long this can continue as is without this discussion taking place. Still very early but there has to be a period of time that next phase has move to the forefront.
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Insoxicated
Do you happen to have a few relevant passages for those of us who lack the time to consume the entire text?
Thanks, GB!
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Imagine watching that video and deciding to nitpick.
(Obviously not directed at you Dude)
The General
Footballguy
The bolded seems both reasonable and smart.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Way too premature to have that discussion. Israel hasn't even invaded yet and this presumes an unequivocal victory. No one has any idea what the outcome(s) might be.
The General
Footballguy
This is a good point.
Completely leveling everything, destroying all infrastructure in this day where anyone with a phone is capable of producing Pulitzer level photos will begin to weigh - even with the horrible nature of the attacks by Hamas.
At some point the discussion of what is next needs to be part of the convo. Not sure how long that is.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Can anybody find examples from prior to this event of protests against Hamas by muslims in western countries?
I mean I can cut some slack to people in Gaza. If they protested, Hamas would have them under the hospital getting Persian toe torture in a heartbeat. But what about all the Muslim activists in say Dearborn, Michigan. Is this something they have done?
I mean I can cut some slack to people in Gaza. If they protested, Hamas would have them under the hospital getting Persian toe torture in a heartbeat. But what about all the Muslim activists in say Dearborn, Michigan. Is this something they have done?
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Thanks for posting. The extent they targeted this festival (hadn't heard the detail of how they blocked the roads in each direction) is just so awful.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Would it really be so hard for NBC to air the video without a whacky 45 second Bounty commercial with klutzes yucking it up over spilt Hi-C? Given the severity of the video and the graphic nature of the content, maybe dispense with the goofy ad for paper towels?
There, I nitpick for you. I appreciate The Dude posting it. Just wish the news sources were a little less tone-deaf with their advert placements for videos.
The Commish
Footballguy
Not being a **** but no....I don't and that's because a majority of the teachings aren't explicit and poorly translated. However, I will say that if you take the time to read it and study it a bit (forget the theology parts sprinkled in and whether you agree or not) you'll see that Islam is VERY different than almost every other religion out there with respect to politics. When you have the context of when things were written and what was written, it's easy to see, but it takes work.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Israel had no good options here. They're bombing the hell out of the Gaza strip and killing a bunch of Palestinians in the process. They are simply breeding the next generation of terrorists that they will have to worry about.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Felt like a good spot for a Whopper ad.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
What a terrible situation for Israel and the innocent Palestinians that have lost their lives and homes. It saddens me that a terrorist organization like Hamas is able to cause such death and destruction that won't even further their cause. The countries that support Hamas should be considered terrorist nations.
The General
Footballguy
Absolutely. There isn’t a good way to go here. I think most understand they have every right to go HAM here. However, there are also ways to go about it.
Messaging and more importantly actions after flattening Gaza will be incredibly important.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
Not directly what you asked for, but from the survey link @ignatiusjreilly posted comes the below tidbit...
Early in this thread, I talked a lot about how Hamas ≠ Palestinians...if this fact is indeed true, I guess I was largely wrong, and Palestinians living in Gaza were much more complicit in this than I initially thought. It honestly sounds like an organized Palestinian anti-Hamas movement in Gaza wasn't something that would happen, but not because of Hamas brutality and repercussions, but more because the people were just fundamentally aligned to Hamas more than I realized.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
My biggest fear is that this will drag the United States in a war with the Arab Nations.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
50% of the population in Gaza is under the age of 18. Hamas has been in power for 16 years now. They know nothing other than Hamas, it what they were raised on.
TripItUp
Footballguy
I would be nice if there was more American coverage on the history of Hamas. How and why they came to be and why they believe what they believe. It honestly feels like Americans are a bunch of uninformed idiots.
That is a perspective sorely missed in today's media.
If the US is going to be involved, the least the US media could do is educate the voters.
That is a perspective sorely missed in today's media.
If the US is going to be involved, the least the US media could do is educate the voters.
TripItUp
Footballguy
Exactly
And now all many of them know is Israel and the United States/West is killing my family.
A vicious cycle that nobody has been able to "fix."
The General
Footballguy
Agreed. That should be everyone's fear. Dealing with a group that whose goal seems to be just that is going to take some deft maneuvering.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Yeah, Israel will need to figure out what to do about the young generation of Palestinians who have a new source of anger. Israel (and many others) will also need to figure out the future location/home of the Palestinians. But for now, as they say: When you're up to your a## in alligators, it's hard to remember your purpose was to drain the swamp.
The Commish
Footballguy
If one subscribes to the idea of "perception is reality" we are already here as far as the arab nations are concerned. It's just a matter of degree at this point.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I mentioned earlier in the thread that once people get past a certain age, they tend to do less active thinking and more pattern-matching. This thing about the "the cycle of violence" and "the next generation of terrorists" is kind of what I'm talking about. People always say that when the topic turns to terrorism in general or the Israeli-Palestinian issue in particular, but how much evidence is there actually for the proposition that going to war automatically creates generational conflict?
Has that ever happened before? Sure. My understanding is the roots of WWII stemmed from the way Germany was treated (or viewed itself as having been treated) after WWI. That seems like a pretty clean example. But is that inevitable?
Well, recently the US essentially went to war with al Qaeda. That was 20 years ago. When was the last time al Qaeda did anything of note? Where's the next generation of al Qaeda fighters that we were supposed to radicalize?
We also killed off a whole bunch of ISIS dipwads. Shouldn't that have sparked a new wave of anti-American attacks by new ISIS recruits? Where are those people?
Less recently, the US basically initiated a war with Mexico in which we proceeded to take a bunch of their land without compensation. Did this spark generations of bloodshed over these ancestral homelands? Nope, they got over it and now the US and Mexico are strong allies. (Edit: Heck, for that matter, is anybody here the slightest bit worried about having your town invaded by an Indian raiding party? Of course not, because those aren't things that exist in 2023.)
Not everybody decides to embrace genocidal psychopathy just because their terrorist parents got wiped out after beheading some innocent kids. Most of them grow out of that phase. Maybe the Palestinians will -- it's really up to them.
Has that ever happened before? Sure. My understanding is the roots of WWII stemmed from the way Germany was treated (or viewed itself as having been treated) after WWI. That seems like a pretty clean example. But is that inevitable?
Well, recently the US essentially went to war with al Qaeda. That was 20 years ago. When was the last time al Qaeda did anything of note? Where's the next generation of al Qaeda fighters that we were supposed to radicalize?
We also killed off a whole bunch of ISIS dipwads. Shouldn't that have sparked a new wave of anti-American attacks by new ISIS recruits? Where are those people?
Less recently, the US basically initiated a war with Mexico in which we proceeded to take a bunch of their land without compensation. Did this spark generations of bloodshed over these ancestral homelands? Nope, they got over it and now the US and Mexico are strong allies. (Edit: Heck, for that matter, is anybody here the slightest bit worried about having your town invaded by an Indian raiding party? Of course not, because those aren't things that exist in 2023.)
Not everybody decides to embrace genocidal psychopathy just because their terrorist parents got wiped out after beheading some innocent kids. Most of them grow out of that phase. Maybe the Palestinians will -- it's really up to them.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I think there’s a lot of truth to this. The flip side would be if Israel does nothing terrorism ends, but that’s hardly realistic. If they don’t respond they also look susceptible to another attack. No one wants it to happen, but it has to happen.
I was thinking the same thing this weekend.
I wonder when we ended WWII if there was talk about creating a generation of Japanese that would try to avenge their losses. I'm sure there was some of that. I'm guessing how we helped afterward was part of addressing that concern too.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Improving the material conditions of the residents of Gaza would help a lot here obviously. It's a lot easier for people to get over the Hatfield-McCoy stuff if their living standards are rising.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
To quote Thomas Sowell, “There are no solutions, only trade offs.”
Let’s be clear, forget about this recent attack or the Israeli response to it. When you boil it down, Hamas and some plurality of Palestinians writ large want to see the destruction of Israel, point blank, period. The Israelis do not wish the same of the Palestinian people. If Palestinians put down their weapons there would be peace tomorrow, if the Israelis put down their weapons they would not exist tomorrow.
As long as the rest of the Arab world stands by and allows Hamas to remain in power and infect the minds of the Palestinian youth, Israel will do what it needs to do to survive. That’s the current trade off.
Palestinians along with the rest of the Arab nations recognize a Jewish state, the Israelis right to exist and start building infrastructure rather than tunnels, they’ll have peace, a country of their own and prosperity. That’s the opposite trade off. Live in peace and have a future, but you have to recognize Israel.
Both of these scenarios are driven by Palestinians and the Arab world’s decisions. The Israelis will play along with whatever trade offs are presented to them. It’s not really that complicated.
Let’s be clear, forget about this recent attack or the Israeli response to it. When you boil it down, Hamas and some plurality of Palestinians writ large want to see the destruction of Israel, point blank, period. The Israelis do not wish the same of the Palestinian people. If Palestinians put down their weapons there would be peace tomorrow, if the Israelis put down their weapons they would not exist tomorrow.
As long as the rest of the Arab world stands by and allows Hamas to remain in power and infect the minds of the Palestinian youth, Israel will do what it needs to do to survive. That’s the current trade off.
Palestinians along with the rest of the Arab nations recognize a Jewish state, the Israelis right to exist and start building infrastructure rather than tunnels, they’ll have peace, a country of their own and prosperity. That’s the opposite trade off. Live in peace and have a future, but you have to recognize Israel.
Both of these scenarios are driven by Palestinians and the Arab world’s decisions. The Israelis will play along with whatever trade offs are presented to them. It’s not really that complicated.
General Malaise
Footballguy
I think part of Japanese surrender meant no Japanese military but I'm going off a memory thats not exactly "elite". Not sure who or where disgruntled Japanese would have gotten the weapons needed to avenge a loss.
Which leads me to ask - where did Hamas get all these weapons? Iran? I know it's been addressed but in simple terms, how'd these terrorists get so strapped and armed?
General Malaise
Footballguy
Who had SWC as a history professor on their bingo cards?
Iran.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Iran and other entities. Hezbollah most likely.
Hezbollah is fully supported and backed by Iran.
Iran is behind Hamas and Hezbollah.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Thanks for the summary, @Jayrod. Most of what you wrote makes sense, except the excerpt above.
I don’t pretend to fully understand the relationship between the Abrahamic religions, but aren’t they all interrelated, sharing the same god?
Is viewing Jesus as a human prophet, and not an extension of God, really worse than denying God altogether?
Loosely related, why do you believe Jews more rightfully deserve Israel than descendants of the Canaanites (not Jewish, as far as I can tell)?
Again, all these topics are pretty new to me, so forgive my simple understanding.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Nothing in history is inevitable. Our occupation of Germany and Japan were both great successes. Our occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq were not. Israel occupied Gaza from 1967 to the late 1990s. That was a failure.
I don’t think it’s inevitable that another Israeli invasion of Gaza will be a failure. But I also think that it’s neither lazy nor unreasonable to assume that it will be. Already as I write this the vast majority of the Muslim world is incensed by the images of children being killed, families forced to leave their homes. I don’t believe this is a promising portent of things to come…
I don’t think it’s inevitable that another Israeli invasion of Gaza will be a failure. But I also think that it’s neither lazy nor unreasonable to assume that it will be. Already as I write this the vast majority of the Muslim world is incensed by the images of children being killed, families forced to leave their homes. I don’t believe this is a promising portent of things to come…
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I mostly agree with what you're saying but I've seen this little "gotcha" repeated like 8 times in this thread and it just seems kind of cheesy. When two parties are disputing something of course the party that currently has it is going to say "hey why don't we just each quit fighting each other and be happy with the status quo we currently have".
If the roles were reversed and Palenstinians had the territory of Israel including Jerusalem and the Israelites were packed into some tiny strip of land where they could see their neighbors enjoying the holy land they believed to be rightfully theirs would they be as apt to just go on peacefully with the status quo?
I was raised Jewish and every year even to this day we all sit around a table and give each other virtual high fives over how we (through god) killed all the little Egyptian babies to change the status quo that we weren't happy with, so I'm tempted to say not.
Jayrod
Footballguy
There was also not hundreds of years of conflict and religious underpinnings attached to the US/Japan conflicts.
timschochet
Footballguy
I could answer this question with a long history of Zionism, how the Jews broke their backs irrigating the land, how the bulk of the Palestinians came to what is now Israel AFTER Jewish emigration, etc etc.
But in truth none of it matters anymore. Who deserves to be there is just as irrelevant, frankly, as who deserves to be here. The Israelis ARE there and they’re not going anywhere. The Palestinians are in Gaza and the West Bank and they’re not going anywhere. That’s the reality both sides have to live with.
SWC
Bromigo
its sort of a truism that there will always be a lot of excuses to keep fighting but its better to look for reasons not to thats the path of the brohan take that to the bank
On a tangential side, there's a good bit of talk in my world and my Christian friends about revenge.
The natural (and feels like human) response is Eye For An Eye. That feels like justice. That's how it worked in the Old Testament.
But Jesus was painfully explicitly clear on that in the New Testament.
It feels like an incredible instruction and teaching.
The natural (and feels like human) response is Eye For An Eye. That feels like justice. That's how it worked in the Old Testament.
But Jesus was painfully explicitly clear on that in the New Testament.
It feels like an incredible instruction and teaching.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Thanks Joe. IMO this is never more true than when your blood is up and you've been truly, deeply wronged or harmed.
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