War in Israel (2 Viewers)

[Dr. Octopus]

Here is another article on the neighboring Arab nations refusing to take on Palestinian refugees.

What are the reasons for the continued refusal by essentially every single Arabic nation on the planet? Is there not one willing to take these people in? If not, why not?

Looks like a lot of Gazans are trying to get out into Egypt, but aren't being allowed. Egypt is refusing to let them out unless Israel will let the aid trucks in? Yet Egypt controls that side of the border completely, why do they need Israel's permission exactly? This isn't really adding up and feels like either something nefarious or it is just posturing.

If Isreal won't allow aids trucks in, they could stop them/blow them up as soon as they cross the border. Just guessing but it seems kind of obvious why Egypt would need Israel's "permission".

 

[parasaurolophus]

Here is another article on the neighboring Arab nations refusing to take on Palestinian refugees.

What are the reasons for the continued refusal by essentially every single Arabic nation on the planet? Is there not one willing to take these people in? If not, why not?

Looks like a lot of Gazans are trying to get out into Egypt, but aren't being allowed. Egypt is refusing to let them out unless Israel will let the aid trucks in? Yet Egypt controls that side of the border completely, why do they need Israel's permission exactly? This isn't really adding up and feels like either something nefarious or it is just posturing.

Of course it is posturing. They don't want refugees and they know Israel won't let fuel in that could easily be used by Hamas.

 

[Redwes25]

You are wrong, we did not give money to fund a terrorist attack on Israel

The US did not cut Iran a check with "this is for terrorist attacks in Israel" handwritten in the memo line. Nobody is saying otherwise. The US did, however, "give" $6 billion to Iran. (These are Iranian funds that were confiscated, because we've confiscated a lot of Iranian funds because of they're a state sponsor of terrorism). The stated purpose of this program was to provide humanitarian assistance to Iran in exchange for them releasing a few Americans, but of course money is fungible and every dollar that Iran doesn't have to spend on food is another dollar that it can spend on killing Israelis.

Here's an article from before the attack that describes what this was all about. I imagine the Biden administration will figure out a way to roll this back either directly or indirectly. They obviously wouldn't agree to this knowing what they know now.

They already have rolled it back. Nothing but a a made up talking point

You are wrong, we did not give money to fund a terrorist attack on Israel

The US did not cut Iran a check with "this is for terrorist attacks in Israel" handwritten in the memo line. Nobody is saying otherwise. The US did, however, "give" $6 billion to Iran. (These are Iranian funds that were confiscated, because we've confiscated a lot of Iranian funds because of they're a state sponsor of terrorism). The stated purpose of this program was to provide humanitarian assistance to Iran in exchange for them releasing a few Americans, but of course money is fungible and every dollar that Iran doesn't have to spend on food is another dollar that it can spend on killing Israelis.

Here's an article from before the attack that describes what this was all about. I imagine the Biden administration will figure out a way to roll this back either directly or indirectly. They obviously wouldn't agree to this knowing what they know now.

They already have rolled it back. Nothing but a made up talking point

"Made up" implies that it's something that didn't happen. This did actually happen. I provided the links that that you didn't have to.

What are talking about. They reversed the decision.

I'm not here to bad mouth the Biden admin for "funding terrorism."

Someone made the point that "Our tax dollars are going to slaughter Palestinians."
Well, we gave Iran money that was used for a terrorist attack.

Does that mean we're complicit? I don't think so. And I don't think giving Israel financial aid means we're helping to slaughter Palestinian civilians.

It is not our tax dollars. Never was it was South Korean money used to purchase Iranian oil that was frozen before it could be wired to Iran.

I give up man.

My only point was that supporting Israel isn't supporting slaughter of the innocents. You're really hammering a lot of points that I wasn't trying to make.

I'm just going to disengage as it's not the conversation/argument I was going for.

Sorry I misunderstood your broader point. Agree this one has probably been beaten to death.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Isreal won't allow aids trucks in, they could stop them/blow them up as soon as they cross the border. Just guessing but it seems kind of obvious why Egypt would need Israel's "permission".

There is no reason to tie the two together. I mean what kind of stance is that? We won't help any palestinians at the border unless you let us send some other stuff in?

The fact that we are talking about Israel here, again, is what is so absurd. I mean this stuff is just insane at this point.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Here is another article on the neighboring Arab nations refusing to take on Palestinian refugees.

What are the reasons for the continued refusal by essentially every single Arabic nation on the planet? Is there not one willing to take these people in? If not, why not?

Probably for the same reasons that New York and Chicago have said to stop sending migrants to their cities. After only 100,000 in New York, the Mayor and Governor have done an about face on allowing more to come. They don't have the infrastructure to house, feed and support them. Now imagine 1M or 2M Palestinians being dropped into your country. Also, how long are they going to remain in those countries. A month, a year, forever?

 

[Jayrod]

Here is another article on the neighboring Arab nations refusing to take on Palestinian refugees.

What are the reasons for the continued refusal by essentially every single Arabic nation on the planet? Is there not one willing to take these people in? If not, why not?

Looks like a lot of Gazans are trying to get out into Egypt, but aren't being allowed. Egypt is refusing to let them out unless Israel will let the aid trucks in? Yet Egypt controls that side of the border completely, why do they need Israel's permission exactly? This isn't really adding up and feels like either something nefarious or it is just posturing.

If Isreal won't allow aids trucks in, they could stop them/blow them up as soon as they cross the border. Just guessing but it seems kind of obvious why Egypt would need Israel's "permission".

You think Israel is going to blow up aid trucks? That would surprise me.

I don't believe they have any troops on the Gaza side of the gate there. I could be wrong, but I don't believe they manage that gate.

 

[belljr]

Not for nothing but they didn't release it. It's under US supervision and can only be used for humanitarian aid. It has not been tapped and they recently put a hold on it again

Redirect Notice

The $6 billion in Iranian oil revenue was freed up last month as part of the U.S.-Iranian prisoner swap in which five American citizens were freed. It was made available solely for humanitarian purposes and is under strict U.S. oversight.


The White House on Thursday repeatedly stressed that Iran has not yet tapped this humanitarian fund

So this is all basically noise

If it was actually just noise, the administration wouldn't have reversed course. This was an actual policy decision that was made by actual flesh-and-blood people. Those folks have since realized that this was a mistake, and they've learned from it. We should learn from it too.

(In case somebody needs this to be said out loud, the lesson is "Iran gets its assets frozen for a reason.")

Also, sorry to put it this way but I don't have any other choice. "This money can only be used for humanitarian purposes" is a bad argument made by naive people who don't understand how budgets work. When somebody makes an argument like this, you should go back and lower your estimation of every argument that person has ever made. Seriously. They're not going to be wrong about literally everything, but they are thinking about the world using a fundamentally broken model of how organizations operate. For example, I am working under a very strict rule that says that I cannot spend state funds on alcohol. Later tonight, I will be attending an on-campus event with faculty and friends of the university at which wine will be served. Breaking the law? No, we have another pot of money we can use for stuff like this. Just because one pot of money is highly-restricted doesn't mean that all pots of money are similarly restricted. Give people a special fund labeled "Humanitarian Purposes Only" and they'll just cut their food and medicine budgets and transfer those funds to the terror budget to compensate.

Sure except they haven't tappedthe money. I'm fully aware how government budgeting works tyvm since I do it

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Not for nothing but they didn't release it. It's under US supervision and can only be used for humanitarian aid. It has not been tapped and they recently put a hold on it again

Redirect Notice

The $6 billion in Iranian oil revenue was freed up last month as part of the U.S.-Iranian prisoner swap in which five American citizens were freed. It was made available solely for humanitarian purposes and is under strict U.S. oversight.


The White House on Thursday repeatedly stressed that Iran has not yet tapped this humanitarian fund

So this is all basically noise

If it was actually just noise, the administration wouldn't have reversed course. This was an actual policy decision that was made by actual flesh-and-blood people. Those folks have since realized that this was a mistake, and they've learned from it. We should learn from it too.

(In case somebody needs this to be said out loud, the lesson is "Iran gets its assets frozen for a reason.")

Also, sorry to put it this way but I don't have any other choice. "This money can only be used for humanitarian purposes" is a bad argument made by naive people who don't understand how budgets work. When somebody makes an argument like this, you should go back and lower your estimation of every argument that person has ever made. Seriously. They're not going to be wrong about literally everything, but they are thinking about the world using a fundamentally broken model of how organizations operate. For example, I am working under a very strict rule that says that I cannot spend state funds on alcohol. Later tonight, I will be attending an on-campus event with faculty and friends of the university at which wine will be served. Breaking the law? No, we have another pot of money we can use for stuff like this. Just because one pot of money is highly-restricted doesn't mean that all pots of money are similarly restricted. Give people a special fund labeled "Humanitarian Purposes Only" and they'll just cut their food and medicine budgets and transfer those funds to the terror budget to compensate.

Sure except they haven't tappedthe money. I'm fully aware how government budgeting works tyvm since I do it

I'm just responding to "It's under US supervision and can only be used for humanitarian aid." That's a good example of a statement that is true in a highly technical sense that most people won't understand, but it's really intentional misinformation. You know that.

 

[SoBeDad]

Also, sorry to put it this way but I don't have any other choice. "This money can only be used for humanitarian purposes" is a bad argument made by naive people who don't understand how budgets work. When somebody makes an argument like this, you should go back and lower your estimation of every argument that person has ever made. Seriously. They're not going to be wrong about literally everything, but they are thinking about the world using a fundamentally broken model of how organizations operate. For example, I am working under a very strict rule that says that I cannot spend state funds on alcohol. Later tonight, I will be attending an on-campus event with faculty and friends of the university at which wine will be served. Breaking the law? No, we have another pot of money we can use for stuff like this. Just because one pot of money is highly-restricted doesn't mean that all pots of money are similarly restricted. Give people a special fund labeled "Humanitarian Purposes Only" and they'll just cut their food and medicine budgets and transfer those funds to the terror budget to compensate.

When government money is involved, accountability often goes out of the window. The same for big organizations. They have the resources to do actual audits, but serious audits seldom occur. Many organizations use unrestricted funds, aka, slush funds, for alcohol, so it doesn't show up on reports where alcohol is prohibited. Where I work, there's alot of mixing of funds from various funding sources, state, federal, industry. Most state funds having strict use it or lose it, mostly on 1-year budgets, which encourages wasteful spending. Tracking the $6 billion Iranian dollars might be difficult, and would lead to reallocation of other funds as you point out. BTW, we have about 20 different cost centers to cover 15 employees, so matching actual work to allocation of funds is impossible, if the goal is to never return money to sponsors.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

You think Israel is going to blow up aid trucks? That would surprise me.

No, but if they're refusing to allow aid trucks in, there must be some kind of way they are going to stop them. Now I'm not sure if they truly are disallowing aid trucks to enter - but I base my statement on yours.

 

[parasaurolophus]

When government money is involved, accountability often goes out of the window. The same for big organizations. They have the resources to do actual audits, but serious audits seldom occur.

When Hamas is involved and they are fully willing to just steal all the supplies none of that matters.

 

[3C's]

Not sure if this has been posted but I don't recall seeing it. It's an opinion piece and it touches on a question that has been brought up about the people in Gaza and their feelings on Hamas.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-oppose-terror-mohammed/index.html

 

[Jayrod]

You think Israel is going to blow up aid trucks? That would surprise me.

No, but if they're refusing to allow aid trucks in, there must be some kind of way they are going to stop them. Now I'm not sure if they truly are disallowing aid trucks to enter - but I base my statement on yours.

That was the entire point of my post. I don't think they actually are stopping the trucks. I think Egypt is likely posturing.

This article spells out the situation pretty well and makes this statement: "The crossing is controlled by Egypt."

 

[Jayrod]

Not sure if this has been posted but I don't recall seeing it. It's an opinion piece and it touches on a question that has been brought up about the people in Gaza and their feelings on Hamas.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-oppose-terror-mohammed/index.html

I'm certain there are people in Gaza who hate and do not support Hamas. But what that number is seems pretty vague. This entire article talks about the opinions of one man, the author's father (who left Gaza decades ago and is dead) and only mentions one poll from this year where 50% of the Gazan people wanted Hamas to "stop calling for Israel's destruction and accept a 2-state solution".

Doesn't seem overly relevant into how many people in Gaza today are supporters of Hamas either actively or passively.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

That was the entire point of my post.

it wasn't clear, sorry.

 

[Tecumseh]

I would be nice if there was more American coverage on the history of Hamas. How and why they came to be and why they believe what they believe. It honestly feels like Americans are a bunch of uninformed idiots.

That is a perspective sorely missed in today's media.

If the US is going to be involved, the least the US media could do is educate the voters.

Even if they did, very few would watch. It’s been a very long time since we’ve had an informed electorate.

 

[3C's]

Not sure if this has been posted but I don't recall seeing it. It's an opinion piece and it touches on a question that has been brought up about the people in Gaza and their feelings on Hamas.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-oppose-terror-mohammed/index.html

I'm certain there are people in Gaza who hate and do not support Hamas. But what that number is seems pretty vague. This entire article talks about the opinions of one man, the author's father (who left Gaza decades ago and is dead) and only mentions one poll from this year where 50% of the Gazan people wanted Hamas to "stop calling for Israel's destruction and accept a 2-state solution".

Doesn't seem overly relevant into how many people in Gaza today are supporters of Hamas either actively or passively.

The link to the 50% poll has more info. There's support for Hamas, as you;d expect especially if they fear Hamas retribution for stating otherwise, but more would prefer to have PA rule.

'In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there'

 

[parasaurolophus]

Not sure if this has been posted but I don't recall seeing it. It's an opinion piece and it touches on a question that has been brought up about the people in Gaza and their feelings on Hamas.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-oppose-terror-mohammed/index.html

I'm certain there are people in Gaza who hate and do not support Hamas. But what that number is seems pretty vague. This entire article talks about the opinions of one man, the author's father (who left Gaza decades ago and is dead) and only mentions one poll from this year where 50% of the Gazan people wanted Hamas to "stop calling for Israel's destruction and accept a 2-state solution".

Doesn't seem overly relevant into how many people in Gaza today are supporters of Hamas either actively or passively.

The same father that abandoned her when she was two? Or her stepfather that beat her mother? Or the male that forced her to marry an al Qaeda operative?

 

[The Duff Man]

Not sure if this has been posted but I don't recall seeing it. It's an opinion piece and it touches on a question that has been brought up about the people in Gaza and their feelings on Hamas.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-oppose-terror-mohammed/index.html

I'm certain there are people in Gaza who hate and do not support Hamas. But what that number is seems pretty vague. This entire article talks about the opinions of one man, the author's father (who left Gaza decades ago and is dead) and only mentions one poll from this year where 50% of the Gazan people wanted Hamas to "stop calling for Israel's destruction and accept a 2-state solution".

Doesn't seem overly relevant into how many people in Gaza today are supporters of Hamas either actively or passively.

There have been other links posted throughout the thread that indicate many in Gaza do not support Hamas.

It is pointless to debate the % as the only proof that can be brought forward are recent polls.

However I will point out that most of the posts arguing the other side, that many in Gaza DO support terrorism, are limited to stating that the people elected Hamas…..in 2006.

 

[Sand]

When government money is involved, accountability often goes out of the window. The same for big organizations. They have the resources to do actual audits, but serious audits seldom occur.

When Hamas is involved and they are fully willing to just steal all the supplies none of that matters.

Hamas controls everything in Gaza. All distribution goes through them. Therefore any aid that gets sent in will be used by Hamas first and then (maybe) trickle down to the people. Being skeptical of sending in supplies is natural and good. Aid will 100% feed the terrorist machine there.

 

[Sand]

How about the fact that the Palestinian authority (not Hamas, just the non Hamas super innocent Palestinians) pays money to people that kill Israelis or pays the family if the terrorist dies while killing Israelis?

Hakim Award receives 14k a year as a reward for killing a family of five. Plenty more examples.

Does the US give aid to Palestine? Yes or no question.

It appears through UN NGOs yes we do. And, of course, we have given aid to their backers, Iran - measured in ransoms paid and sanctions unenforced. In the last three years Iran's oil and foreign reserves have gone from essentially zero to 60B.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Israeli cyber experts start 'war room' to track missing after Hamas attack

Hundreds of Israeli high-tech experts have temporarily put their private sector jobs aside to help locate Israelis missing after last week's attack by the Palestinian militant group Hamas.

www.reuters.com

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714289932842488024

We just eliminated Ayman Nofal, a senior Hamas operative. Nofal was the Commander of Hamas’ Central Brigade in Gaza and the former Head of Military Intelligence. Nofal directed many attacks against Israeli civilians and besides being one of the most dominant figures in the terrorist organization, he was involved in the planning of the abduction of Gilad Shalit.We won't stop until we eliminate Hamas.​

 

[parasaurolophus]

You are wrong, we did not give money to fund a terrorist attack on Israel

The US did not cut Iran a check with "this is for terrorist attacks in Israel" handwritten in the memo line. Nobody is saying otherwise. The US did, however, "give" $6 billion to Iran. (These are Iranian funds that were confiscated, because we've confiscated a lot of Iranian funds because of they're a state sponsor of terrorism). The stated purpose of this program was to provide humanitarian assistance to Iran in exchange for them releasing a few Americans, but of course money is fungible and every dollar that Iran doesn't have to spend on food is another dollar that it can spend on killing Israelis.

Here's an article from before the attack that describes what this was all about. I imagine the Biden administration will figure out a way to roll this back either directly or indirectly. They obviously wouldn't agree to this knowing what they know now.

Edit: Yep, to nobody's surprise, the US has reversed course on the humanitarian-aid-to-Iran policy. Good decision.

How much do you think Iran was spending on these humanitarian items before? Its only fungible if they were ever actually doing so or planning to and now deciding they don’t need to any longer. Doesn’t seem there is much to support of that actually happening.

Does the Iranian military not eat?

 

[(HULK)]

You are wrong, we did not give money to fund a terrorist attack on Israel

The US did not cut Iran a check with "this is for terrorist attacks in Israel" handwritten in the memo line. Nobody is saying otherwise. The US did, however, "give" $6 billion to Iran. (These are Iranian funds that were confiscated, because we've confiscated a lot of Iranian funds because of they're a state sponsor of terrorism). The stated purpose of this program was to provide humanitarian assistance to Iran in exchange for them releasing a few Americans, but of course money is fungible and every dollar that Iran doesn't have to spend on food is another dollar that it can spend on killing Israelis.

Here's an article from before the attack that describes what this was all about. I imagine the Biden administration will figure out a way to roll this back either directly or indirectly. They obviously wouldn't agree to this knowing what they know now.

They already have rolled it back. Nothing but a a made up talking point

You are wrong, we did not give money to fund a terrorist attack on Israel

The US did not cut Iran a check with "this is for terrorist attacks in Israel" handwritten in the memo line. Nobody is saying otherwise. The US did, however, "give" $6 billion to Iran. (These are Iranian funds that were confiscated, because we've confiscated a lot of Iranian funds because of they're a state sponsor of terrorism). The stated purpose of this program was to provide humanitarian assistance to Iran in exchange for them releasing a few Americans, but of course money is fungible and every dollar that Iran doesn't have to spend on food is another dollar that it can spend on killing Israelis.

Here's an article from before the attack that describes what this was all about. I imagine the Biden administration will figure out a way to roll this back either directly or indirectly. They obviously wouldn't agree to this knowing what they know now.

They already have rolled it back. Nothing but a made up talking point

"Made up" implies that it's something that didn't happen. This did actually happen. I provided the links that that you didn't have to.

What are talking about. They reversed the decision.

did they reverse it ahead of these attacks or in response to these attacks. Because the timing is really, really important. The whole “money is fungible” concept seems to be being ignored by you and the Biden admin. If Iran expected $6 billion in aid funds then they very easily can reallocate $6 billion for any other venture they may want to undertake. Surely you understand that.

My understanding is that the $6B was not dispersed yet, and now won't be.

It was Iran's money we seized, not US tax dollars.

There are people, for purely political reasons, claiming we gave $6B in US taxpayer money for hostages and then that money (or money freed up from the influx of this money) funded the attack on Israel. This is objectively false in multiple ways.

We don't want this thread to devolve further into politics. I hope our leaders can find it in themselves to not distort truths to score political points in the wake of the events in Israel. We need them to be their best selves and this ain't that IMO.

 

[sho nuff]

Does the Iranian military not eat?

Yes. But that wouldn’t be humanitarian aid…would it? This only “frees up cash” if Iran had some budget for humanitarian aid already. Do you believe that to be the case?

 

[parasaurolophus]

Does the Iranian military not eat?

Yes. But that wouldn’t be humanitarian aid…would it? This only “frees up cash” if Iran had some budget for humanitarian aid already. Do you believe that to be the case?

Do you think they follow food they send all the way into people's mouths?

There are a million ways humanitarian aid can benefit soldiers, the ruling class, and their families.

 

[sho nuff]

Does the Iranian military not eat?

Yes. But that wouldn’t be humanitarian aid…would it? This only “frees up cash” if Iran had some budget for humanitarian aid already. Do you believe that to be the case?

Do you think they follow food they send all the way into people's mouths?

There are a million ways humanitarian aid can benefit soldiers, the ruling class, and their families.

Im unsure the point you are makingnin regards to the assets that were temporarily unfrozen…placed in a Qatar account under US supervision and how they somehow were replacing other money Iran had budgeted for humanitarian purposes that they are now using to fund terror.

Point blank…IMO…no freezing or unfreezing of funds affected what Iran planned on doing.

 

[unckeyherb]

Not sure if this has been posted but I don't recall seeing it. It's an opinion piece and it touches on a question that has been brought up about the people in Gaza and their feelings on Hamas.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-oppose-terror-mohammed/index.html

I'm certain there are people in Gaza who hate and do not support Hamas. But what that number is seems pretty vague. This entire article talks about the opinions of one man, the author's father (who left Gaza decades ago and is dead) and only mentions one poll from this year where 50% of the Gazan people wanted Hamas to "stop calling for Israel's destruction and accept a 2-state solution".

Doesn't seem overly relevant into how many people in Gaza today are supporters of Hamas either actively or passively.

There have been other links posted throughout the thread that indicate many in Gaza do not support Hamas.

It is pointless to debate the % as the only proof that can be brought forward are recent polls.

However I will point out that most of the posts arguing the other side, that many in Gaza DO support terrorism, are limited to stating that the people elected Hamas…..in 2006.

Thats definitely not true. I linked a recent poll that showed just under 60% were supportive of Hamas. There was a more recent poll a few pages back that indicated that number was likely higher. Its been pointed out that when these Hamas folks go streaming through the streets dragging bodies of Israeli's they are given a hero's welcome. Again take the 60% number from the previous poll and cut it in half. That's still 1 in 3 Palestinians that want the annihilation of Israel.

 

[Jayrod]

Good grief, just stop the discussion on the $6 billion. It is a stupid and pointless argument which is the very definition of political and is completely derailing the thread. I'm not reporting it because I want this thread to survive, but enough already.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Good grief, just stop the discussion on the $6 billion. It is a stupid and pointless argument which is the very definition of political and is completely derailing the thread. I'm not reporting it because I want this thread to survive, but enough already.

On a related note, who cares what percentage of the Gaza population supports Hamas? That's not at all relevant to the situation at hand.

 

[Todem]

Good grief, just stop the discussion on the $6 billion. It is a stupid and pointless argument which is the very definition of political and is completely derailing the thread. I'm not reporting it because I want this thread to survive, but enough already.

On a related note, who cares what percentage of the Gaza population supports Hamas? That's not at all relevant to the situation at hand.

Not one bit actually.

 

[The Commish]

You are wrong, we did not give money to fund a terrorist attack on Israel

The US did not cut Iran a check with "this is for terrorist attacks in Israel" handwritten in the memo line. Nobody is saying otherwise. The US did, however, "give" $6 billion to Iran. (These are Iranian funds that were confiscated, because we've confiscated a lot of Iranian funds because of they're a state sponsor of terrorism). The stated purpose of this program was to provide humanitarian assistance to Iran in exchange for them releasing a few Americans, but of course money is fungible and every dollar that Iran doesn't have to spend on food is another dollar that it can spend on killing Israelis.

Here's an article from before the attack that describes what this was all about. I imagine the Biden administration will figure out a way to roll this back either directly or indirectly. They obviously wouldn't agree to this knowing what they know now.

They already have rolled it back. Nothing but a a made up talking point

You are wrong, we did not give money to fund a terrorist attack on Israel

The US did not cut Iran a check with "this is for terrorist attacks in Israel" handwritten in the memo line. Nobody is saying otherwise. The US did, however, "give" $6 billion to Iran. (These are Iranian funds that were confiscated, because we've confiscated a lot of Iranian funds because of they're a state sponsor of terrorism). The stated purpose of this program was to provide humanitarian assistance to Iran in exchange for them releasing a few Americans, but of course money is fungible and every dollar that Iran doesn't have to spend on food is another dollar that it can spend on killing Israelis.

Here's an article from before the attack that describes what this was all about. I imagine the Biden administration will figure out a way to roll this back either directly or indirectly. They obviously wouldn't agree to this knowing what they know now.

They already have rolled it back. Nothing but a made up talking point

"Made up" implies that it's something that didn't happen. This did actually happen. I provided the links that that you didn't have to.

What are talking about. They reversed the decision.

I'm not here to bad mouth the Biden admin for "funding terrorism."

Someone made the point that "Our tax dollars are going to slaughter Palestinians."
Well, we gave Iran money that was used for a terrorist attack.

Does that mean we're complicit? I don't think so. And I don't think giving Israel financial aid means we're helping to slaughter Palestinian civilians.

The only distinction we should be making here is that the funds given to Iran were given BACK to Iran after we had frozen them. Those were not our tax dollars. For me, this distinction doesn't matter a whole lot one way or the other in practical terms. In my view, this whole "conversation" is picking nits and just a political distraction that we should try and avoid. If you look at things from far enough away, they all begin to look the same.

Not for nothing but they didn't release it. It's under US supervision and can only be used for humanitarian aid. It has not been tapped and they recently put a hold on it again

Redirect Notice

The $6 billion in Iranian oil revenue was freed up last month as part of the U.S.-Iranian prisoner swap in which five American citizens were freed. It was made available solely for humanitarian purposes and is under strict U.S. oversight.


The White House on Thursday repeatedly stressed that Iran has not yet tapped this humanitarian fund

So this is all basically noise

Thanks for the correction

Sadly, makes the claims (and I've seen many) that much more gross during this time.

 

[titusbramble]

Here is another article on the neighboring Arab nations refusing to take on Palestinian refugees.

What are the reasons for the continued refusal by essentially every single Arabic nation on the planet? Is there not one willing to take these people in? If not, why not?

Looks like a lot of Gazans are trying to get out into Egypt, but aren't being allowed. Egypt is refusing to let them out unless Israel will let the aid trucks in? Yet Egypt controls that side of the border completely, why do they need Israel's permission exactly? This isn't really adding up and feels like either something nefarious or it is just posturing.

If Isreal won't allow aids trucks in, they could stop them/blow them up as soon as they cross the border. Just guessing but it seems kind of obvious why Egypt would need Israel's "permission".

You think Israel is going to blow up aid trucks? That would surprise me.

Israel-Hamas war: ‘Hundreds killed at Gaza hospital’ in airstrike

The Palestinian leader has announced three days of mourning and called on the international community to intervene

www.independent.co.uk

If hospitals are fair game, then aid trucks wouldn't surprise me either. Unless of course a country with some of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world has their trigger finger slip and they were really aiming at a munitions depot or something

 

[The Duff Man]

Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?

There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).

Maybe I just don’t get this situation.

Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.

You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.

There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.

There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.

Do you have a source for this poll?

This site claims most wanted the seizefire to hold and half wanted to accept the two state solution.

EDIT TO ADD: NO IDEA IF THIS IS CREDIBLE!

Poll Data and article

“According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack.”

I've seen https://www.pcpsr.org/ referenced in articles I've read previously. They do a number of public opinion polls of Palestinians. I can't speak to the recency of the poll.

This is the only link I saw, which you noted you didn’t know the date.

I don’t see anything that suggest 60% Hamas support but didn’t look too hard either.

I see a recent Sept poll around the impacts of the Oslo agreement, which includes this result.

• In parliamentary elections, Fatah wins 36% of the vote and Hamas 34%

 

[Jayrod]

Israel-Hamas war: ‘Hundreds killed at Gaza hospital’ in airstrike

The Palestinian leader has announced three days of mourning and called on the international community to intervene

www.independent.co.uk

If hospitals are fair game, then aid trucks wouldn't surprise me either. Unless of course a country with some of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world has their trigger finger slip and they were really aiming at a munitions depot or something

Are you not aware of Hamas' practices? This is exactly what they were hoping for. (note the date on that article, they've been doing this for some time now)

Maybe Israel would blow up a truck at this point. Still think Egypt could do more if they actually gave a crap and the gate is theirs to control.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Israel-Hamas war: ‘Hundreds killed at Gaza hospital’ in airstrike

The Palestinian leader has announced three days of mourning and called on the international community to intervene

www.independent.co.uk

If hospitals are fair game, then aid trucks wouldn't surprise me either. Unless of course a country with some of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world has their trigger finger slip and they were really aiming at a munitions depot or something

Are you not aware of Hamas' practices? This is exactly what they were hoping for. (note the date on that article, they've been doing this for some time now)

Maybe Israel would blow up a truck at this point. Still think Egypt could do more if they actually gave a crap and the gate is theirs to control.

If this is exactly what Hamas is hoping for, why would you want Israel to fall into this trap?

 

[Jayrod]

Israel-Hamas war: ‘Hundreds killed at Gaza hospital’ in airstrike

The Palestinian leader has announced three days of mourning and called on the international community to intervene

www.independent.co.uk

If hospitals are fair game, then aid trucks wouldn't surprise me either. Unless of course a country with some of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world has their trigger finger slip and they were really aiming at a munitions depot or something

Are you not aware of Hamas' practices? This is exactly what they were hoping for. (note the date on that article, they've been doing this for some time now)

Maybe Israel would blow up a truck at this point. Still think Egypt could do more if they actually gave a crap and the gate is theirs to control.

If this is exactly what Hamas is hoping for, why would you want Israel to fall into this trap?

I don't. Not sure anyone does, but Israel is seeing red right now and pretty much acting in a blind fury of rage over the attacks.

They literally declared war, so they are acting like it.

 

[Jayrod]

In my personal opinion, Israel should not use any bombs or missiles and commit to the slow and painful process (and dangerous) of going door to door, floor to floor and clear out the entire region with soldiers. It would take months, but doing so in a methodical enough manner could ensure the removal of all of Hamas and limit the loss of innocent life.

I think for Israel that poses 2 issues:
1) increased risk of deaths to their soldiers.
2) prolonging the "war" from days/weeks to months.

They just don't seem to be willing to risk any more Israeli lives and don't have any patience for anyone or anything here.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Thanks for the correction

Sadly, makes the claims (and I've seen many) that much more gross during this time.

The "money is fungible" argument is also kind of silly. It's not like Iran has been spending every last dollar on humanitarian assistance for its people, but hey, now that they have this extra $6B, they can start funding terrorism

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Lots of confusion over this Gazan hospital that was bombed. I'm seeing reports that it was an Israeli airstrike, and others claiming that it was a misfired Hamas rocket.

I think we can all agree that no one here is qualified to make that determination, so we should wait until more information is available before jumping to any conclusions

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Let’s put aside for the moment the question of whether or not Israel is justified in how it is choosing to retaliate against Gaza- it’s an emotional question that is leading to a lot of hard feeling.

I would instead ask all those who believe that Israel is justified an even more important question, IMO: how do these actions make Israel safer in the long run? Currently I am convinced that they will do the opposite and make things even worse for Israel.

Hamas wants to destroy Israel. They sent terrorists in to rape and murder innocent civilians. If, what many people say is true, and the run of the mill Palestinian holds no ill-will toward Israel or Jews in general, then the complete and total annihilation of Hamas would of course maker them safer. Unfortunately in order to actually accomplish this, they will have to go scorched earth, which is why they are telling civilians to get out of the north. I'm not sure how destroying Hamas would make things worse.

Because you can’t destroy Hamas without also destroying the homes of nearly 2 million people. What then? In addition Hezbollah is warning they will get involved. In addition, it could bring about an overthrow of Fatah in the West Bank, in addition it will be very costly, bloody and difficult and the consequences are impossible to fully predict,

I’m not saying that Israel is making the wrong decision here necessarily. I’m saying that I’m worried about it and I don’t like what I’m seeing.

Yeah war is awful. Israel didn’t start this but they will finish it. Destroy what needs to be destroyed and then help to rebuild. You can’t allow Hamas to continue because you’re afraid of creating new Hamas members.

Like @IvanKaramazov said pages back, we were able to do this in Germany w/r/t the nazis without much self doubt. This situation is not much different but for some reason a lot of people regard it much differently.

And as I pointed out in response to Ivan we were able to do it in Germany because we treated the Germans humanely. The Russians didn’t treat them humanely and their occupation of East Germany was a 40 year tragedy as bad for the Russians as it was for the Germans. And THAT is the lesson we can take from that experience ,

Ok? They should of course treat non-combatants civilly and giving a heads up to people prior to bombing a Hamas location is an example that they are doing just that. None of this should preclude them from destroying Hamas.

It should if it involves them committing massive crimes against humanity. Which it will. And with our American tax dollars no less.

Goes without saying that what Hamas did was horrible. But it doesn't justify an insane bombing campaign against Palestinian civilians.

They haven't even really started anything and you're already accusing them of crimes against humanity.

They were just the victims of a terrorist attack. They have the nerve to go after the people that did it, and you're calling it "insane" and a "bombing campaign against Palestinian civilians."

They're doing what any rational country would do. If Hamas continues to put citizens in harms way, that is ultimately on them. I hope Israel tries like heck to avoid unnecessary civilian casualties. But a few weeks after they were the victims of a terrorist attack--this reads like they're the bad guys for something you think they'll do.

Correct me if I'm wrong--but we gave money to Iran who gave money to Hamas. So American Tax dollars went to the Terrorist attacks? Should our tax dollars only be on that side of the conflict?

There's this HUGE emphasis being placed on protecting Palestinian lives. I agree that is important. I pray that the Israeli military will do that. But I also think the same grace must be extended to Israeli lives. And at this moment in time, it would appear that not eliminating Hamas means more Israeli lives will be lost. There's no good solution. But I can certainly understand taking the action you believe saves the lives of your own people.

You are wrong, we did not give money to fund a terrorist attack on Israel

that money, 6B, has been held up in Qutar. allegedly we are still in control of it and how it is spent.

 

[Don't Toews Me]

https://twitter.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/1714352303082271215

For what it’s worth, this doesn’t look or sound quite like an air strike using the typical IAF 1000lb or 2000lb JDAM/Mk80 series to me. Incoming projectile sounds like it’s under power and the explosion frames visible look like largely propellant fire rather than HE detonation…

Obviously, however, it’s difficult to tell with any certainty based on a single camera angle at night with low resolution.

https://twitter.com/TreyYingst/status/1714358894749749360

IDF statement to Fox: “A hospital is a highly sensitive building and is not an IDF target. The IDF is investigating the source of the explosion and, like always, is prioritizing accuracy and reliability.”

Strike on Gaza Hospital Kills More Than 500

Palestinian health officials said more than 500 people were killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital, while Israel said the explosion was caused by a Palestinian rocket. The blast at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital was one of the deadliest single incidents of violence in the Gaza Strip, coming hours bef

www.wsj.com

Palestinian health officials said more than 500 people were killed in an Israeli airstrike on a Gaza hospital in one of the deadliest single incidents of violence in the strip—hours before President Biden was expected to visit Israel in a show of support. The attack on Al-Ahli Arab Hospital occurred as aid workers already warned of a looming humanitarian collapse in Gaza.

Israeli military spokesman Daniel Hagari said he is looking into what happened at the hospital. The explosion comes during a week of escalating Israeli bombing in Gaza, following Hamas’s attacks on Israel on Oct. 7.

I would wait for some more information. Regardless, a serious and tragic incident.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Can't confirm elsewhere but many sources on Twitter reporting:

Israel’s National Security Council has raised the travel warning to Turkey to its highest level, warning any Israelis in the country to leave immediately.​

 

[dgreen]

On a tangential side, there's a good bit of talk in my world and my Christian friends about revenge.

The natural (and feels like human) response is Eye For An Eye. That feels like justice. That's how it worked in the Old Testament.

But Jesus was painfully explicitly clear on that in the New Testament.

It feels like an incredible instruction and teaching.

​

Matthew 5:38-48​

​

New Living Translation​

​

​

Teaching about Revenge​

38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’[a] 39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile,[b] carry it two miles. 42 Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow.​

​

Teaching about Love for Enemies​

43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’[c] and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies![d] Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends,[e] how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.​

And maybe we should take my post to the Religion thread as I don't want to get off track here.

But it's a very tough, and difficult teaching Jesus lays out for Christians.

I think a thread on revenge and forgiveness, detached from the current discussion of this war, would be interesting.

 

[Joe Bryant]

On a tangential side, there's a good bit of talk in my world and my Christian friends about revenge.

The natural (and feels like human) response is Eye For An Eye. That feels like justice. That's how it worked in the Old Testament.

But Jesus was painfully explicitly clear on that in the New Testament.

It feels like an incredible instruction and teaching.

​

Matthew 5:38-48​

​

New Living Translation​

​

​

Teaching about Revenge​

38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’[a] 39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile,[b] carry it two miles. 42 Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow.​

​

Teaching about Love for Enemies​

43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’[c] and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies![d] Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends,[e] how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.​

And maybe we should take my post to the Religion thread as I don't want to get off track here.

But it's a very tough, and difficult teaching Jesus lays out for Christians.

I think a thread on revenge and forgiveness, detached from the current discussion of this war, would be interesting.

Agreed. https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/revenge-forgiveness-grace-some-thoughts.810770/

 

[The Z Machine]

flipping tragic

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

On a tangential side, there's a good bit of talk in my world and my Christian friends about revenge.

The natural (and feels like human) response is Eye For An Eye. That feels like justice. That's how it worked in the Old Testament.

But Jesus was painfully explicitly clear on that in the New Testament.

It feels like an incredible instruction and teaching.

​

Matthew 5:38-48​

​

New Living Translation​

​

​

Teaching about Revenge​

38 “You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’[a] 39 But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also. 40 If you are sued in court and your shirt is taken from you, give your coat, too. 41 If a soldier demands that you carry his gear for a mile,[b] carry it two miles. 42 Give to those who ask, and don’t turn away from those who want to borrow.​

​

Teaching about Love for Enemies​

43 “You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor’[c] and hate your enemy. 44 But I say, love your enemies![d] Pray for those who persecute you! 45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. 46 If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. 47 If you are kind only to your friends,[e] how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. 48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.​

Yes, why won't either side in this conflict listen to the words of Jesus?

(Not to belittle your point, Joe. That was just too obvious a joke not to make.)

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

https://twitter.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/1714352303082271215

For what it’s worth, this doesn’t look or sound quite like an air strike using the typical IAF 1000lb or 2000lb JDAM/Mk80 series to me. Incoming projectile sounds like it’s under power and the explosion frames visible look like largely propellant fire rather than HE detonation…

Obviously, however, it’s difficult to tell with any certainty based on a single camera angle at night with low resolution.

https://twitter.com/TreyYingst/status/1714358894749749360

IDF statement to Fox: “A hospital is a highly sensitive building and is not an IDF target. The IDF is investigating the source of the explosion and, like always, is prioritizing accuracy and reliability.”

Strike on Gaza Hospital Kills More Than 500

Palestinian health officials said more than 500 people were killed in an Israeli strike on a Gaza hospital, while Israel said the explosion was caused by a Palestinian rocket. The blast at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital was one of the deadliest single incidents of violence in the Gaza Strip, coming hours bef

www.wsj.com

Palestinian health officials said more than 500 people were killed in an Israeli airstrike on a Gaza hospital in one of the deadliest single incidents of violence in the strip—hours before President Biden was expected to visit Israel in a show of support. The attack on Al-Ahli Arab Hospital occurred as aid workers already warned of a looming humanitarian collapse in Gaza.

Israeli military spokesman Daniel Hagari said he is looking into what happened at the hospital. The explosion comes during a week of escalating Israeli bombing in Gaza, following Hamas’s attacks on Israel on Oct. 7.

I would wait for some more information. Regardless, a serious and tragic incident.

Israel is saying they didn't have planes in the area and hadn't targeted any hospitals. They also tossed out the stat that 30-40% of Hamas rockets fall back on Gaza bc of their poor aim and technology. But yeah, I'm sure more details will come out on this.

Hasn't stopped leaders from around the world from condemning Israel already.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714370853465387395

​

​

Israel Defense Forces​

​

@IDF​

​

Following an analysis by the IDF's operational systems, a barrage of rockets was launched toward Israel, which passed in the vicinity of the hospital, when it was hit. According to intelligence information from a number of sources we have, Islamic Jihad terrorist organization is responsible for the failed rocket launch that hit the hospital.​

Great. Another terrorist organization joining into the fracas.