Manster
Footballguy
Terrorist organizations don't have rules of engagement. They thrive on chaos, and brutality. Israel will do what the must to regain order.
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War in Israel (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter dickey moe
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AAABatteries
Footballguy
I’m happy to own up to introducing something about religion in the US to the discussion here and as Joe said, it doesn’t really belong. I shouldn’t have done that.
But this is also like the 4th bump I’ve seen which totally misrepresents my posts. I have plenty of religious beliefs myself - and many people in here do too and I don’t think any of you or myself are idiots. I very specifically said there’s a very small number of people who will use religion to justify what Hamas has done. It’s not controversial but the way I went about presenting it was. Again - my mistake and I own it.
Sand
Footballguy
It doesn't get any more scorched earth than that. Hamas is asking for a strip of glass. They may yet get it.
There has always been a massive chasm between BLM the movement and the BLM organization that has coopted it. At least for me the former is respected, the latter reviled. This is consistent.Yea, I'm generally supportive of BLM and try to stay neutral on the Palestine/Israel conflict, but WTF is wrong with these people?Uggh. I just clicked on the BLM link with image. I now see what you are saying. That's horrific.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Somebody wakes up after hearing about what happened and decides to make a sign that says "Decolonization is not a metaphor" and take to the streets.
Another that says "resistance is not terrorism."
"Israel to hell"
"Zionism is racism"
"By any means necessary"
Just unreal.
Another that says "resistance is not terrorism."
"Israel to hell"
"Zionism is racism"
"By any means necessary"
Just unreal.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Is there a link to this? I’ve tried multiple news sites including BBC and not seeing anything.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
I don’t think this is wrong. Yet Hamas likely committed these atrocities for the purpose of causing an overwhelming response from Israel that would disrupt/ruin political progress between Israel and other Arab states.
I would prefer not to reward Hamas by giving them the policy win they sought to achieve with the attacks.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
There are idiots in any movement. Notice you’re not seeing anything like this from anyone anywhere in leadership. It’s some random clowns in a street protest, some idiots in the Chicago chapter of BLM, fools in Sydney Australia.Yea, I'm generally supportive of BLM and try to stay neutral on the Palestine/Israel conflict, but WTF is wrong with these people?Uggh. I just clicked on the BLM link with image. I now see what you are saying. That's horrific.
Even the most progressive members of the US govt have strongly condemned Hamas’ actions - AOC has been very clear.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
My take: These folks have likely long been vested in supporting the fate of the Palestinian people and seeing death/destruction is sadly not new. I don’t agree with them - there is no excuse for what we’re seeing w/re to innocent civilians, but I don’t think these people just woke up and suddenly arrived at those positions based on this weekends atrocities.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
The more they push the envelope of atrocity, the more I am of the belief that their only goal at this point is to literally get Israel to tactically nuke them and wait for the Arab world to use that as the trigger for a full on destruction of the Jewish state. I simply can't think of another explanation for something like this. Just insane. Simply insane.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
It's exactly why they did it. No real debate there.
But they've also now said, unequivocally, that there is no line they will not cross, no humanity they will protect. And there can never again be any faith in Hamas to act with a shred of humanity.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Of course they held these positions. They obviously hold them very strongly and very much felt the need to get out there after this happened.
It motivated them to scream who they are louder than ever, rather than give them pause like it should to a rational, moral human.
The distance between Hamas and Palestinians is much smaller than people are pretending it is.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
If only that strategy had been more effectively used in the PSF...
timschochet
Footballguy
I’m sorry I heard a reporter say “it has been confirmed” but I don’t know her name and I can’t find anything else: I’ve had MSNBC on all day while I work.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
“It’s hard to even explain exactly, just the mass casualties that happened right here,” visibly shaken i24 News correspondent Nicole Zedek said during a broadcast from Kibbutz Kfar Aza …
nypost.com
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
It doesn't depend on which side of the fence you're on. It depends on your intention.
Look, if Hamas wants to launch missiles at Israeli troop locations, those are legit military targets. If a civilian gets hit in the process, that's collateral damage to use the euphemism. It is totally different if you are intentionally targeting civilians, which is what Hamas did this weekend.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
There’s plenty of reasons they’ve never done that - not all are humanitarian.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
It's not "ok" but it is the cost of war. Do you believe there is no meaningful moral difference between 1) the primary intent to eliminate a terrorist organization; and 2) the primary intent to murder civilians?
Edit: looks like Ivan was making a similar point while I was responding. As usual, he did a better job of it.
rational? an opening heart, compassion and forgiveness.
likely? i'd bet my life against it.
rational? an opening heart, compassion and forgiveness.
likely? i'd bet my life against it.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
They attacked the Electric Daisy Carnival and then went after a lot of folks in their homes that had no idea what was unfolding.
-Imagine sending your kids off to a concert or music festival and then this happens...it has in this country and a smaller scale like in Vegas, lot of folks were murdered by the attacker at Mandalay. I mentioned Pulse night club which always seems to get brushed under the rug, we've had horrible tragedies from what were deemed celebrations.
-This should not be hard for most people to understand. Terrorists attacked and took siege including hostages, some of them perhaps Americans who were living it up in Israel.
What did any of these people do wrong?
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
I believe that was a video replayed from i24, an Israel tv news channel ( we get it on Spectrum service). The news being reported is more current on I24. Our mainstream media is reporting same actions about 3-6 hours later.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
It almost feels like Hamas wants to see Gaza citizens slaughtered or collateral damage to their goal of bringing in outside countries
Hamas wants Israel to send a loud military response, then the videos from their hospitals start pouring in here and suddenly people will be begging Israel to back down
Remember that in coming days and weeks
Hamas wants Israel to send a loud military response, then the videos from their hospitals start pouring in here and suddenly people will be begging Israel to back down
Remember that in coming days and weeks
Manster
Footballguy
Infidels
A reminder - when quoting reports, please use links.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
The rational response would be to eliminate the terror threat. There is no coming back from what they did. There is no redemption.
This is like asking parkland families to have a picnic with cruz and just have some compassion and understanding and just hear his side of things. Maybe buy him a cup of coffee and just hear him out.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I won't link it but the NY Post is running the "40 Babies" story and it says it happened at a kibbutz
-Some were beheaded it says
Does it matter how the 40 babies were killed and destroyed?
Heads/No Heads, I'm at a loss where people would start arguing about this except if the story is actually true or not
-I like to have some authenticity before I go flying off the handle about things but how the 40 babies were exterminated is moot.
If 40 babies were murdered, the way they were killed seems inconsequential.
-Israeli soldiers confirmed the beheadings when they went to recover the bodies of the people murdered in Israel by Hamas
@Joe Bryant says Link it
nypost.com
-Some were beheaded it says
Does it matter how the 40 babies were killed and destroyed?
Heads/No Heads, I'm at a loss where people would start arguing about this except if the story is actually true or not
-I like to have some authenticity before I go flying off the handle about things but how the 40 babies were exterminated is moot.
If 40 babies were murdered, the way they were killed seems inconsequential.
-Israeli soldiers confirmed the beheadings when they went to recover the bodies of the people murdered in Israel by Hamas
@Joe Bryant says Link it
Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
“It’s hard to even explain exactly, just the mass casualties that happened right here,” visibly shaken i24 News correspondent Nicole Zedek said during a broadcast from Kibbutz Kfar Aza …
nypost.com
Lord have mercy. What a broken, messed up world.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I was skeptical about the "decapitating babies" story at first, because we've heard that kind of thing in other conflicts too and it always turns out to be false. I only linked to it because it was being reported by an on-the-ground reporter who was right there and talking to people who had seen the bodies.
I know this is a fog-of-war situation and I don't want to link to false stories. If I fall for disinformation, I'll own it and accept some mockery. But I was careful about this one. It's been confirmed by other outlets. If it's wrong, a bunch of people independently got it wrong.
(Edit: Also, to be clear, I hope its obvious that I neither know nor care whether all 40 were decapitated or if it was only some of them. That doesn't matter IMO.)
I know this is a fog-of-war situation and I don't want to link to false stories. If I fall for disinformation, I'll own it and accept some mockery. But I was careful about this one. It's been confirmed by other outlets. If it's wrong, a bunch of people independently got it wrong.
(Edit: Also, to be clear, I hope its obvious that I neither know nor care whether all 40 were decapitated or if it was only some of them. That doesn't matter IMO.)
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Isn't there video of them decapitating a thai concert goer?
The Commish
Footballguy
Hamas is doing what they are doing because Islam is a religion of self fulfilling prophecy and the Quran has some absolutely brutal "signs" for Muslims to look for when determining if what is happenong is Gods will or not.
In a nutshell, if muslims arent being ridiculed, torchered, killed etc, they arent doing it correctly.
In a nutshell, if muslims arent being ridiculed, torchered, killed etc, they arent doing it correctly.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I have no idea. Apparently there is a lot of stuff out there, but I am not looking.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
I have seen some seemingly credible people quoting an Israeli military source saying they aren't aware of any beheadings. Not sure how much it really matters given what we know DID happen, but I think some caution is still in order.
Caveman33
Footballguy
These stories are horrible and seem to be getting worse as they discover more. So sad to read about what happened/is happening to all these people. I don't know how Israelis are able to go on with their lives without being in constant fear of another terrorist attack. If I had the means to leave, I have to think I would. They are stronger people than me.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
It does matter in how response is understood.I won't link it but the NY Post is running the "40 Babies" story and it says it happened at a kibbutz
-Some were beheaded it says
Does it matter how the 40 babies were killed and destroyed?
Heads/No Heads, I'm at a loss where people would start arguing about this except if the story is actually true or not
-I like to have some authenticity before I go flying off the handle about things but how the 40 babies were exterminated is moot.
If 40 babies were murdered, the way they were killed seems inconsequential.
-Israeli soldiers confirmed the beheadings when they went to recover the bodies of the people murdered in Israel by Hamas
@Joe Bryant says Link it
Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
“It’s hard to even explain exactly, just the mass casualties that happened right here,” visibly shaken i24 News correspondent Nicole Zedek said during a broadcast from Kibbutz Kfar Aza …
40 children of any age dying in a war is tragic and a curse up on all adults in the world that can't settle their differences without it happening.
But a mistake can be understood in geopolitics. Collateral damage is a difficult but real cost of war.
This isn't that. Again, Hamas purposely had to do this by hand. Not by drone. Not by missile. Not by mistake. They had to intend to do exactly what they did here.
They get no benefit of any doubt anymore if this is true. Ever.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Thanks for the education - that paper is extremely painful to read; only made it half-way through. I think I get the point though.Been thinking a lot about how to respond to this, and I apologize if it comes across as if I was blowing you off. I want to respect the "no politics" rule as much as possible.Do you think “your world“ is representative of US society as a whole?I work with people exactly like this. I've typed up like six or seven posts along these lines and had to delete all of them for an assortment of reasons, but people should start listening seriously to people who use terms like "decolonization." This is not a fringe ideology in my world.No comment on socialists as that's way too close to the political line.non-religious group, Democratic Socialists of America, holding a pro-hamas rally.
Hundreds fill Times Square for rival protests over violence in Israel
Violence in the Middle East reverberated Sunday in Times Square, where pro-Palestinian and pro-Israeli protesters came face to face during heated demonstrations.www.nydailynews.com
using AAA logic, all socialists are pro-murder. socialism should die in America.
But I will say, as individuals, these organizers are evil and should be shunned in polite society. I don't see how you plan a rally to cheer killing 250 kids.
I’m certainly no expert, but concepts like decolonization seem pretty out there to me. And it doesn’t surprise me when nutty concepts are embraced on college campuses, but that’ s a far cry from mainstream thought.
My experience is definitely not representative of US society as a whole. 20 years ago, people in my world were telling everyone who would listen that "racism is prejudice plus power." Ten years ago, those exact same people (not the same type of person, but literally some of the same individual human beings) started with "trans women are women." Those ideas originated in my world and migrated into yours. Today, those same people (again, literally in some cases) are reminding us that "decolonization is not a metaphor." Remember that phrase. Put a pin in it. You will be hearing it again. It's the name of an article I'm going to link to, but it is also one of those incantations.
I've been blessed* with the opportunity to be in the passenger seat for this stuff. What happens over and over again is that people write it off as dumb college kids being dumb, when (a) it's faculty, not kids and (b) this is all being institutionalized as we speak. I understand that you don't pay careful attention to politics, and that's good. Most people shouldn't spend much time worrying about politics, and I commend you on your life choices in that regard, seriously. You probably figure that the adults are keeping an eye on this stuff. You are wrong about that part.
Read this article.
I had to do a deep dive into this topic about a year and a half ago, and I think this is more or less the most famous, widely-cited article on this topic. It is referenced constantly in this particular community. Understand that these people** mean it. They are telling you what they believe in a straightforward manner. When these people talk about removing settlers from their land, they are talking about you. I mean, especially you, because you are a settler on land that properly belongs to indigenous Hawaiians. A non-insignificant number of decolonization activists will tell you openly that you deserve to have your home and everything you own confiscated from you and given to indigenous people, by violence if necessary. They will not tell you openly what happens to you and your family in that scenario -- that is always left to the imagination.
Read the article if you don't believe me. Listen to what the brightest lights in this movement have to say. Read the people who they cite. These are people who do not care a whit about property rights, except when it comes to very specific ethnic groups inhabiting very specific plots of land. Then it's blood and soil. You should start noticing that.
* If you read that with a tinge of sarcasm, you're on the right track.
** Most of these people are cosplayers and grifters, but some of them aren't. The cosplayers provide cover -- intentionally in most cases -- for the true believers.
Still not convinced widespread decolonization will be accepted by society outside academia. Sure, there will be subtle influence in language and "PC-ness" regarding indigenous people and oppressors, but not major policy changes. And there's no way "colonizers" are going to be ousted from power, removed from their land, etc. Changing a few sports mascots, or frowning on "cultural appropriation", doesn't really move the needle imo.
Your examples of other "fringe" ideas gaining mainstream acceptance further my point. While trans people are definitely more recognized in contemporary society, they're hardly viewed as equivalent to cisgendered individuals. I acknowledge using terminology in the trans-vernacular that wasn't in my vocabulary a decade ago, but that's a far cry from widespread acceptance.
And native Hawaiians have been demanding sovereignty since well before statehood. As far as I can tell, they've made little headway in over half a century. The government throws money their way as a consolation; I work in a hospital partially funded on the premise of sustaining native Hawaiian health. But nobody is relinquishing property, and the power they yield remains limited.
As an aside, all these discussions are a little contrived, given the definition of indigenous is fairly subjective. Native Hawaiians are typically thought of as descendants of King Kamehameha, who himself thrust a bunch of expat Marquesans off cliffs, when he "unified" the islands. AFAIK, nobody is suggesting those guys regain control, even though they got to Hawaii first. Everyone has blood on their hands, and I don't necessarily believe a policy of "finders, keepers" will create the most harmonious, productive society in any event.
To me, this represents a bunch of old guys lamenting any change which conceivably threatens their position of power. Clearly, I'm not to worried about it. But for you and others like @rockaction, what concrete consequences in the short- and long-term do you fear? In our lifetime, do you believe any of us will be subjugated to literal decolonization? Which indigenous people will rise to power?
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Maybe we should keep this about Israel and Hamas?
Sand
Footballguy
In this case you just have to laugh and see if these people actually know whose temple is plopped on top of whose temple.
Sand
Footballguy
In any case, if there is any good news, maybe this is a shred of one. The young lady paraded half naked in the truck (and presumed dead) evidently is in a Gaza hospital. That's good to see.
news.yahoo.com
Mom of Festival-Goer Shani Louk Says She’s Still Alive in a Gaza Hospital
Jack Guez/AFP via GettyThe mother of a young German woman feared dead after her body was paraded around by Hamas gunmen during the terrorist group’s blitz attack on Israel says she may still be alive after all.In a new video message on Tuesday, Ricarda Louk appealed to authorities to help...
jamny
Footballguy
Hope that's true but find it hard to believe.In any case, if there is any good news, maybe this is a shred of one. The young lady paraded half naked in the truck (and presumed dead) evidently is in a Gaza hospital. That's good to see.
Mom of Festival-Goer Shani Louk Says She’s Still Alive in a Gaza Hospital
Jack Guez/AFP via GettyThe mother of a young German woman feared dead after her body was paraded around by Hamas gunmen during the terrorist group’s blitz attack on Israel says she may still be alive after all.In a new video message on Tuesday, Ricarda Louk appealed to authorities to help...
rockaction
Footballguy
This is the wisest bit of wisdom in this thread. When somebody takes the opportunity to tell you what they're all about, you do a great disservice to both that person and yourself if you don't listen to what they're telling you.
rockaction
Footballguy
Tlaib's comments were condemned by her own party, especially Ritchie Torres.
This is . . . untrue.
timschochet
Footballguy
The whole history of the modern State of Israel is that they have no other place to go.
timschochet
Footballguy
Did Tliab or anyone else state approval of Hamas’ actions? (I know she condemned Israel’s response, and Israeli policies in general, but that’s not the same thing.)
timschochet
Footballguy
I think we should be careful in condemning anyone who shows support for Palestinians UNLESS they specifically express support for Hamas’ actions.
massraider
Footballguy
no other place they wanted to go.
What’s the Truth about … the Uganda Plan? - Jewish Action
Misconception: The early Zionists were offered, and nearly accepted, Uganda as the Jewish homeland. This demonstrates that Zionist Leader Theodor
jewishaction.com
timschochet
Footballguy
Lot of problems with that assumption, too many to go into here. But remember that there was already a strong Jewish community in Palestine prior to Herzl and the Zionist movement.no other place they wanted to go.
What’s the Truth about … the Uganda Plan? - Jewish Action
Misconception: The early Zionists were offered, and nearly accepted, Uganda as the Jewish homeland. This demonstrates that Zionist Leader Theodor
But none of that matters now.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I wasn't sure I was reading this correctly or the way you intend itThe Jewish settlers had a chance at a one party state, in multiple locations, where no one would ever screw with them. And they rejected it.
What’s the Truth about … the Uganda Plan? - Jewish Action
Misconception: The early Zionists were offered, and nearly accepted, Uganda as the Jewish homeland. This demonstrates that Zionist Leader Theodor
Are you referring to Israel as "Jewish Settlers"?
I just want to make sure I was reading that as you intended it,
Not saying I agree/disagree but I want to have clarity when I read what folks are writing
Thanks for the clarification in advance Mass
rockaction
Footballguy
She claimed they were caused by Israel if you read her full statement. That was the impression I got from reading it, anyway. It was all over reputable news sites.
Here is her statement, taken from House.gov
“I grieve the Palestinian and Israeli lives lost yesterday, today, and every day. I am determined as ever to fight for a just future where everyone can live in peace, without fear and with true freedom, equal rights, and human dignity. The path to that future must include lifting the blockade, ending the occupation, and dismantling the apartheid system that creates the suffocating, dehumanizing conditions that can lead to resistance. The failure to recognize the violent reality of living under siege, occupation, and apartheid makes no one safer. No person, no child anywhere should have to suffer or live in fear of violence. We cannot ignore the humanity in each other. As long as our country provides billions in unconditional funding to support the apartheid government, this heartbreaking cycle of violence will continue."
But I don't want to politic up this thread. I was hoping for reportage and history, not current politics. I got roped in by that statement. I'm going to let it go and not worry about it and apologize for even responding.
rockaction
Footballguy
Note she says "resistance" not "terrorism" and blames the "apartheid government."
That's pretty much a go **** yourself to Israel, isn't it?
That's pretty much a go **** yourself to Israel, isn't it?
Todem
Footballguy
Hamas and benefit of the doubt is an oxymoron.It does matter in how response is understood.I won't link it but the NY Post is running the "40 Babies" story and it says it happened at a kibbutz
-Some were beheaded it says
Does it matter how the 40 babies were killed and destroyed?
Heads/No Heads, I'm at a loss where people would start arguing about this except if the story is actually true or not
-I like to have some authenticity before I go flying off the handle about things but how the 40 babies were exterminated is moot.
If 40 babies were murdered, the way they were killed seems inconsequential.
-Israeli soldiers confirmed the beheadings when they went to recover the bodies of the people murdered in Israel by Hamas
@Joe Bryant says Link it
Hamas kills 40 babies and children — beheading some of them — at Israeli kibbutz: report
“It’s hard to even explain exactly, just the mass casualties that happened right here,” visibly shaken i24 News correspondent Nicole Zedek said during a broadcast from Kibbutz Kfar Aza …
40 children of any age dying in a war is tragic and a curse up on all adults in the world that can't settle their differences without it happening.
But a mistake can be understood in geopolitics. Collateral damage is a difficult but real cost of war.
This isn't that. Again, Hamas purposely had to do this by hand. Not by drone. Not by missile. Not by mistake. They had to intend to do exactly what they did here.
They get no benefit of any doubt anymore if this is true. Ever.
- Status
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