Jayrod
Footballguy
"Hey, we'll kill your thousands of your families indiscriminately and have pledged to wipe you off the face of the earth, but please don't take our homes away because that would be mean."
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War in Israel (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter dickey moe
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
And strangely enough we don't live in fear every day that Germans or Japanese people will behead us.
Jayrod
Footballguy
So you agree with Psychopav that Israel should just give up Gaza and the West Bank fully for a Palestinian State as a PR move? And this will make things better?
That seems like the most naïve stance I can think of and ignores decades of Arab & Palestinian behavior.
ETA: I'm sure PR is a consideration, but it is pretty far down the list of Israeli priorities right now. The US and UK (and a lot of Europe) are pretty committed to Israel and are giving them a ton a latitude. Not sure sacrificing a bunch of their citizens to the risk of terrorist attacks is worth some unknown amount of global "PR".
Gr00vus
Footballguy
They already did that. Doesn't seem to be working out so well, thus a new plan is definitely in order. Also I'm not sure you're interpreting @Psychopav 's post correctly - I read it differently. Regardless, I'm disputing just your claim that "they aren't doing **** for "PR"." They most definitely do **** for PR.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
NEW: A Reuters cameraman named Issam Abdullah was killed by an Israeli strike in southern Lebanon. He was standing with a group of journalists when the strike took place.
And FTR, I support and stand with Israel on this, if it happened here, my guess/bet is before they could even mobilize our military in full force that a ground swell militia would be building up already, highly doubt you would need to order people into taking up arms.
-But there is going to be some collateral damage, perhaps A LOT and at some point it's not really collateral is it? Props to Trey again for at least showing both sides, i think that's fair and people can draw their own conclusions or at least see some of what is happening on both sides.
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DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
I’m the one that said it was a pr move. and it is. It’s obvious. ”hey, can 300k of you move out of the way? we know there really isn’t anywhere to go, but we’re coming in to seriously go scorched earth tomorrow”. That’s what I was talking about. Not giving up anything to palestinians
Israel does have to care about its image world wide.
I fully expect the Palestinian death toll to go over 10k. Is Israel justified to go scorched earth? IMHO, yes. But there’s got to be some spin on it. Because the images that are/will come out of gaza are going to be horrific. Just as the images and stories that came out of Israel were horrific.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
A 'New Front' In Hamas War Depends On Israel's Actions, Says Iran
Iran's foreign minister, whose government supports Hamas and other Middle East militant groups, said on Thursday opening a "new front" against Israel would depend on Israel's actions in Gaza.
www.ndtv.com
Iran's official response
-I so want to add a little S&P on this one but I'll refrain
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Not at the moment, but before now or after this moment has passed, yes I do. How many Israelis actually reside in Gaza? Why do they even want to keep it? Israel's survival doesn't depend on Gaza or on the West Bank. But especially on Gaza. It would be much easier to move the Israelis that live there than to continue with this "solution" that has not worked for decades.
tri-man 47
Footballguy
Crazy video link posted on CNN showing Hamas training facilities that have been in operation over the past two years. How on earth did Israel not pick up on this and stay on high alert? I mean, you can't just shrug it off, right? SMH
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Maybe I'm reading you wrong here, but I'm pretty sure there were pretty much no Israelis living in Gaza after it was ceded to the Palestinians. They didn't want to keep it, they just didn't want it to become a terrorist territory. The west bank on the other hand...
Jayrod
Footballguy
I didn't think any Jewish Israelis lived in Gaza. I don't know that for sure, but that seems like an awful idea.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I don't mean to single you out, but there a whole bunch of people in this thread who are repeating talking points from 20 years ago, and I think it's because people genuinely don't know that Gaza has changed since then.
Israel doesn't occupy Gaza, and hasn't since 2005. No Israelis live there. (I'm sure there's a few, but officially the number is zero I believe). Gaza's not a country, but the Palestinians held free elections and turned the reigns over to Hamas in 2007. Hamas is the democratically-elected government of this particular strip of land. Israel isn't trying to occupy it or move anybody there. Egypt doesn't want these people any more than Israel does, and Egypt is an active participant in keeping Gaza an "open air prison." Israel's survival definitely does not depend on them holding Gaza, but they need for the residents of Gaza not to behead children and murder people at dance festivals. Their government had other ideas, which is why we are here.
Hamas has launched lots of rocket attacks at civilian and military targets over the years. Israel typically responds with something like ***-for-tat. The reason why they declared war this time is because of the specific actions that Hamas chose on Saturday.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Yeah I should be more clear. The West Bank is obviously a much more challenging situation, and frankly the so-called solution in that area is the best the world has been able to and willing to live with. And it seems to be working as well as one could hope it would imo.
Gaza is another story entirely. What is in Gaza that Israel truly needs control of? How many Israelis actually even live there?
The "solution" they have now already ignores decades of Arab & Palestinian behavior. They should treat Gaza like it already is for all practical purposes - an independent state - and untether themselves from it entirely. Then, if it acts improperly, they should respond with appropriately proportional actions. Basically I'm saying do everything you're doing now, but wash your hands of Gaza and stop acting like they're part of your country when you let them govern themselves in some sort of weird giant militarized zone.
Again, the practical differences would be less resources needed and cleaner lines of engagement. And it gives Israel the moral high ground - although some would undoubtedly consider it a "reward" for poor behavior, those people would still support Israel. And they would win over countless moderate Muslims.
eta for clarity: I should not be lumping West Bank in with Gaza strip. Two very different situations that we lump together because Palestinians.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Understood, but has Israel recognized them as a sovereign nation? They can still be held accountable for their actions (maybe even more easily).
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
That's exactly what they're doing. Any state that does what Hamas did on Saturday gets destroyed. That's the proportional response.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Yes, but they don't recognize Gaza as a sovereign nation, do they? And maybe Hamas doesn't want to be recognized as one without the West Bank in the mix. I don't know how all that works, but I know Israel and the Arab nations get hung up over nation status.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Why does it matter whether Israel, or anyone else, recognized Gaza as a country?
Regardless of whether Gaza is an independent country or a colonial quasi-state, its government is not justified in sending troops into a neighboring country to rape and murder civilians while taking others as hostages. Every time somebody does something like that, they die. That's how civilization works. It is good to incapacitate people who want to murder civilians.* Their diplomatic status is irrelevant.
* That's why we have prisons, and it's why we have armies.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The short answer is yes. Biden confirmed this himself.
The long answer is that a bunch of Holocaust deniers are arguing about whether the infants in question were actually beheaded, or whether they were simply set on fire, or whether their bodies were blown apart by assault rifle rounds (which might look like a beheading to people who are not familiar with what happens when you shoot a newborn with a high-powered round). Also, there was some confusion yesterday about whether the claim was that "40 infants have been killed, some of them decapitated" or whether it was "all 40 of these dead infants were decapitated." Those are slightly different claims, and to be fair it is good for us to get our facts straight, but it takes a certain type of person to get invested in this sort of argument.
In other words, a whole bunch of people are telling you who they are. You should listen.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Ummm.....so basically like it is now?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Good question
Stories do confirm that it happened but my bigger question
40 babies murdered is enough, right?
The method for how they were slaughtered and people wondering if it's really really true
Fact:Hamas killed over a thousand Jews and many Americans plus a number of babies, raped women laying on top of dead friends' bodies, it's truly awful if you Google and search around what you will see, "X"-Twitter whatever it's called now is loaded with graphic content
If the babies beheaded were not true but they just strangled them all to death or suffocated them all with a pillow, would that feel better?
Would that deserve less of a response from Israel?
I'm curious why folks are caught up on this detail specifically
But we likely can't discuss it so just ignore this post
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Not exactly.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
For the first time I allowed myself to peer into these demonstrations in NYC, you want to grab these people thru the TV and beat the ever loving snot out of them
Also I see a disproportionate amount of them wearing masks, don't think it has much to do with Covid at this point, they are COWARDS, rip those masks off them especially the ones that resemble what terrorists wear when they come a knockin'
Many of these are not N95s or whatever
I didn't think it would happen in Florida but they are having Pro Palestinian demonstration in Port Richey, Florida
I really try to steer clear of large groups of people that show up at these rallies, I don't see how they have all that free time on their hands.
Sand
Footballguy
It's not their land, so fair trade here.
I'd also say that Hamas didn't tell them to stay, they ordered them to stay. Dead baby pictures, if they can get them, are worth way more than a safe baby.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Wonder what it says in the government charter about Israel?
Sand
Footballguy
Just as a fact check, not a political statement - the WH immediately walked back Joe's comments that he'd seen these images.
That there is dissembling among some as to whether it matters exactly how many babies were intentionally slaughtered says everything you need to know about those groups. I was also agog at the sick hilarity of the attempt to thread that needle.
beer 30
Footballguy
I sent this to culdeus as a PM but thought it have some bearing for the greater group. Just about finished up with this podcast but around the the 46:45 minute mark, he gets into the baby issue and sums it up pretty well. He is a former IDF soldier living in Israel and gives a perspective from the Israel side.
Haviv Rettig Gur on Danger Close podcast
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Saw one last night. In gaza. Apparent dead Baby on stretcher. Guy picks up baby and shows it to everyone around him. Paramedics take baby away. Awful. Wish I could unsee it.
Sand
Footballguy
I have to say Isrealis top the world in cool sounding names.
beer 30
Footballguy
Not that I have my finger on the pulse of Israeli-Palestinian talking heads or even if this guy is one but he's as smooth talking as his name implies.
Todem
Footballguy
Hamas wants it all. Hezbollah wants it all.
When you let these murderous psycho paths lead your cause……
unckeyherb
Footballguy
There's no Israelis in Gaza. They were removed-forcibly-back in 2000 when it was turned over to the Palestinians. Then the Palestinians voted to put Hamas in power. And here we are.
unckeyherb
Footballguy
I'm not sure what your point is with regards to Israel recognizing Gaza as a nation. The people of Gaza don't consider themselves a nation as far as I know. And to be fair, there are only a small handful of Arabs states that recognize Israel as a nation. Again, Israel offered Gaza AND the West Bank to the Palestinians on two conditions: 1. Recognize a Jewish State and 2. Stop lobbing bombs into our neighborhoods. That was simply a bridge too far for the Palestinian Authorities so they said, "no" and then ran suicide bomber operations into Israeli neighborhoods.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
On the plus side, the whole "Day of Rage" or whatever it was supposed to be sure didn't amount to much. I guess it's a little harder when you're not sucker-punching women and children.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I'm still amazed at the number of people refusing to acknowledge these facts and who keep banging the drum of "Apartheid state" and "illegal occupation".
Boston
Footballguy
They repeat what they have been taught...I am guessing this whole thing has been a real eye-opener to some people as to what is going on in some of the halls of academia.
Psychopav
Help us, Joebi-Wan Brynobi, you're our only ho
Ok fair points all.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
Am I naive in thinking that citizens of Gaza deserve some empathy and compassion?
There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).
Maybe I just don’t get this situation.
There are posts in here that either lump them in with Hamas, already consider them casualties of war, or imply they deserve what they get because they elected the Hamas in 2007 (has there been an election since then).
Maybe I just don’t get this situation.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
My theory about a lot of things is that most people stop learning around the time they hit 30 or 35. They spend the rest of their life just pattern-matching. I often find myself wondering how much of my own thinking is like this. For example, I sometimes find that my thoughts on Russia and China (to a lesser extent) are unduly colored by cold-war considerations that no longer apply. It's hard to break out of that sometimes.
Once you see this phenomenon, you see it everywhere. It's not just this topic.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Of course they do. They deserve exactly as much compassion as you would afford civilian residents of Berlin in 1945. No more, no less.
Nathan R. Jessep
Footballguy
Finally found a source for the Israelis notifying Gaza residents to evacuate, which reportedly happened around midnight (and prior to that, according to some).
TL;DR - They told the UN they want everyone north of Wadi Gaza (roughly in the north-to-south middle of the strip) to evacuate to the south of the strip. Roughly 1.1MM people.
(not in this source link, but have seen a few reports on social media saying that they dropped leaflets from the air to residents in Gaza, and had been sending notifications electronically prior to power being out)
Also thought this one from the bottom of that page was interesting
TL;DR - They told the UN they want everyone north of Wadi Gaza (roughly in the north-to-south middle of the strip) to evacuate to the south of the strip. Roughly 1.1MM people.
(not in this source link, but have seen a few reports on social media saying that they dropped leaflets from the air to residents in Gaza, and had been sending notifications electronically prior to power being out)
Also thought this one from the bottom of that page was interesting
Behind the scenes: The Israeli officials said that on Friday — the day before the attack — Israeli intelligence saw signs of Hamas activity in Gaza that suggested the militant group could have been preparing for an attack.
- As a result, several high-level consultations took place on Friday night to try to understand what the new intelligence meant, the officials said.
- IDF Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi, Shin Bet director Ronen Bar and Aharon Haliva, head of military intelligence, participated in some of these consultations, which discussed whether the irregular activity was a Hamas exercise or initial preparation for an attack.
- Israeli officials said that one of the possibilities that was raised in the consultation was to put IDF forces around Gaza on high alert because of a possible attack.
- But after the consultations, the leaders decided to wait for more intelligence to come in. Several hours later, Hamas attacked.
the moops
Footballguy
You are coming across as completely heartless in these exchanges my friend.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Unless you think I'm arguing that we should have intentionally killed more German civilians, I have no idea why you would think that.
A different way of putting it is that we did not let the mere existence of German civilians prevent us from doing what we had to do to remove the German government from power, and that is a good thing. We shouldn't intentionally kill them, and we should protect them where we can, but that's not going to stop us from achieving our objective. If that's heartless, fine. I'm cool with that level of heartlessness in my life.
Edit: I mean, ask yourself whether there is any circumstance under which you would say "You know, removing the Nazis from power is just killing too many civilians and causing too many humanitarian problems. We're going to just have to let this guy have Germany." If the answer is "No, it was worth killing quite a few civilians to get rid of the Nazis," then you can understand why many of us feel the same way about Hamas.
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(HULK)
(Smash)
Certainly some do. Over a million kids in there, they didn't elect anyone.
Todem
Footballguy
Blows my mind.
the moops
Footballguy
I don't think you believe that. I guess maybe it is just the flippant sort of tone? I don't know, but it just comes across that way to me. Carry on
Beef Ravioli Part 2
Footballguy
Israel gave the Palestines a whole lot more notice than Hamas gave Israel!
unckeyherb
Footballguy
There is polling data that just under 60% of Palestinians in Gaza are in favor of Hamas. 60%. You can't get 60% of a population to agree on anything. But on the topic of a ruling political party that happens to have a terrorist wing that has no problem raping citizens, killing babies and livestreaming the murder of grandparents to their grand children's Facebook page, six in ten Palestinians give their thumbs up.
There are obviously innocent people on both sides of this war and there will obviously be terrible things that happen to them. That their leaders are probably hoping for that to happen in an effort to gain support for their cause is really sad and unfortunate. It really shouldn't make much of a difference to the Israelis' goal of wiping out Hamas.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
An Israeli Marshall Plan in Gaza once Hamas is gone might not be a bad idea.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
Do you have a source for this poll?
This site claims most wanted the seizefire to hold and half wanted to accept the two state solution.
EDIT TO ADD: NO IDEA IF THIS IS CREDIBLE!
Poll Data and article
“According to the latest Washington Institute polling, conducted in July 2023, Hamas’s decision to break the ceasefire was not a popular move. While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack.”
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