War in Israel (2 Viewers)

[parasaurolophus]

Seems inconceivable to me that the Syrian government would launch a military strike against Israel. First, we would have heard about that for sure, and second it would be suicidal.

This is way more likely to be whatever militant group is over there. Plausible deniability if nothing else.

It really doesn't matter. The same terrorist and militant groups freely use the Syrian airports and move throughout Syria.

That's why Israel hit the airports 9 months ago and 11 months ago.

For all we know they tell each other it is coming and the whole thing is a wink wink nod nod facade.

 

[Terminalxylem]

This was exactly Hamas' goal, was it not? To provoke Israel into a wider conflict and eventually draw in the West?

We will not know this for a while, but I think it was likely another of their "limited" attacks that ended up doing better than they hoped, but the scale of the atrocities they committed have now put them in a worse spot than usual.

It was likely also to destabilize the budding peace between Israel and the oil producing Arab countries to the south (other than Iran)

Why has Iran in particular been resistant to moving forward with peaceful Israeli relations? Of all the Islamic countries, why are they the ones everyone points to as supporting Hamas?

I thought Persians were mostly Shia, while Hamas is Sunni?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

I asked it above early this morning, but what is Israel supposed to do?

I blame Iran first, Hamas militants second, Gaza citizens third and Israel 4th in this mess. Iran is the real root issue. They've been stirring the pot and forcing everyone into this situation for decades now. Israel could have maybe handled a few things better with Gaza, but honestly it is all about the West Bank. Nobody gives a crap about that narrow strip of land in Gaza, but they all want full control over Jerusalem.

There is no doubt that Iran has played an important role (though we still don’t know if they’re directly involved in this latest affair.)

But it’s important to realize that the situation in Gaza precedes the Iranian Revolution in 1979. If that Revolution had never occurred, and Iran had stayed a monarchy under the Shah, with good relations with the USA and Israel, I’m not convinced that the story of Gaza would be significantly different. Radical groups like Hamas and Hezbollah would have found money and aid from other other sources.

I thought we were going to stop all these personal history lessons



Bass n Brew
I'll gladly take the link off that you found unsettling, I understand how you feel

Cheers!

 

[SWC]

This was exactly Hamas' goal, was it not? To provoke Israel into a wider conflict and eventually draw in the West?

We will not know this for a while, but I think it was likely another of their "limited" attacks that ended up doing better than they hoped, but the scale of the atrocities they committed have now put them in a worse spot than usual.

It was likely also to destabilize the budding peace between Israel and the oil producing Arab countries to the south (other than Iran)

Why has Iran in particular been resistant to moving forward with peaceful Israeli relations? Of all the Islamic countries, why are they the ones everyone points to as supporting Hamas?

I thought Persians were mostly Shia, while Hamas is Sunni?

iran has a long history of supporting extremist groups like hezbolla the palestinian islamic jihad and hamas and has been involved in attacks on israeli embassies outside of the middle east also since mahmoud amenajean they have basically been open enemies so i think it is just ochams razor on it take that to the bank brohan

 

[need2know]

if only we produced more oil here

To be clear, we are producing more oil than ever before. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=M

we could produce far more. I dont want to argue so im not gonna post about this anymore.

 

[Jayrod]

@Jayrod
I'll gladly take the link off that you found unsettling, I understand how you feel

I think you mean someone else, because I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Jayrod]

22 americans

We have domestic terrorists that most of the time cannot get the number as high as this (thankfully)...and we're just talking about the Americans visiting Israel
2 people I play Tennis with have visited Israel in the last month, it's not uncommon at all to see Americans visiting Israel, not just those of Jewish faith.
22 Americans murdered as a result of the Hamas attack, I'm kind of shocked there isn't more outrage here in America.

-I clearly heard the POTUS say "Silence is Complicit"
-I remember Desert Shield in '91-'92 I was right at about my Senior Year of high school when I woke up one morning and saw what we had done under Bush
He didn't ask anyone's permission, he gave an order and it was carried out.

I would love to see something done unannounced that catches everyone off guard and I think for a brief moment the POTUS almost spilled the beans
But he was very careful in not saying what his exact plans were and he certainly wasn't about to announce them to anyone. That's the way he framed it.
I hope he borrows a page from the Gulf War and I wold like to see the Iranian Nuke Plants destroyed, the fact they have gotten this far with the plans is scary to me.
I keep hearing "Iranian Backed" and since they are mentioned with these groups all the time...a strong message needs to be sent.

I don't mean to be so violent with my words but I'm asking for the United States to find some military targets that will either cripple or severely hurt those who back these groups.
I still am concerned and worried what the video and pics will look like after Israel enters Gaza with intentions to stay and occupy for a while.

Just my opinion, but if you're traveling outside of the US, you are take your chances and waiving your protections. For many it's worth the risk but it's not our responsibility to go to war to bring your butt home. 25 years ago I retired from engineering because my company wanted me to travel to interior China while US soldiers were being held by China. Paycheck was worth the risk to me.

This post is just going to have links to stories, I'm not agreeing/disagreeing,
Sometimes it's the tone or certain adjectives used to describe things.

Maps and satellite images reveal Gaza devastation as Israel retaliates for Hamas attack

The Gaza Strip has been pounded by relentless airstrikes since Hamas militants launched a full-scale assault on southern Israel.

www.cbsnews.com

White House admits Biden has NOT seen 'Hamas beheading children'

Joe Biden on Wednesday condemned the 'pure cruelty' of Hamas' attack on Israel. 'I never really thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

-White House refutes the POTUS words in this speech, good to see they are all on the same page

I respectfully request that you delete this post. No need to mention US politicians in this thread.

I want to BnB but I would like to explain why I inserted that story.

I think it's important the POTUS has his own lane. Let me explain...the POTUS in theory speaks for all of us. He does it anytime he's at the podium.
You might not have voted for him, you might like/dislike him, you might not agree with everything but he is OUR elected leader right now.
I don't put him in my post to punch down at, when he speaks to the World, he's speaking for all of us, right/wrong whatever.

-Personally I think he knew about the babies and there's been a lot more stories since then

Israeli military says babies WERE beheaded by Hamas

Israeli Defence Forces spokesman Jonathan Conricus said a coroner who visited the aftermath of the massacre at a kibbutz near Gaza saw the children's bodies and confirmed how they died

www.dailymail.co.uk

I found it odd that he said one thing with conviction, that story he spoke about has been proven true and the WH staff undermines him and says something else.
It makes me feel like the POTUS might be speaking with people that the WH staff outside of Andrew Sullivan, those people might not be invited or included in a military operation and that's what my following posts were about

I'd like to see the entire World wake up surprised like back in 1991
I'm sorry if that offended you but I hope as I explain myself you won't feel offended.

Thanks!

You didn’t offend me, you posted something against the rules that will get this thread **** down. NO domestic politics allowed. J has made an exception for international events. Don’t screw this up

Looks like it was BassNBrew?

 

[SWC]

as to why iran hates israel so much i read an article that says that iran views iteslf and all muslims as oppressed and especially the shia who lost to the sunnis in the 7th century and so when the shias came to power again in iran under khomeni when they kicked out the shah and the new shia leadership had a grievance agaisnt the entire idea of arab socialist nationalism and they wanted the entire arab world to unite under a secular revolutionary leadership in which israel would be wiped out as a key point and that put iran at the head of that proposed world order but at the same time within iran since the revolution there has not been purity there is just as much drug use and prostituoin and crime as anywhere else despite it being a totalitarian religious state but the one thing that iran holds on to is the idea that israel must be destoryed basically the powers that be there leverage it as a means to stay in power so it as a combination of the feeling of oppression including taking away the holy land from muslims irans view as the leader in the revoluation and people using the issue to stay in power i dont know if that is right or wrong but thats what the article said take that to the bank brohan

 

[CGRdrJoe]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

I asked it above early this morning, but what is Israel supposed to do?

I blame Iran first, Hamas militants second, Gaza citizens third and Israel 4th in this mess. Iran is the real root issue. They've been stirring the pot and forcing everyone into this situation for decades now. Israel could have maybe handled a few things better with Gaza, but honestly it is all about the West Bank. Nobody gives a crap about that narrow strip of land in Gaza, but they all want full control over Jerusalem.

There is no doubt that Iran has played an important role (though we still don’t know if they’re directly involved in this latest affair.)

But it’s important to realize that the situation in Gaza precedes the Iranian Revolution in 1979. If that Revolution had never occurred, and Iran had stayed a monarchy under the Shah, with good relations with the USA and Israel, I’m not convinced that the story of Gaza would be significantly different. Radical groups like Hamas and Hezbollah would have found money and aid from other other sources.

I thought we were going to stop all these personal history lessons

You are on a mission to prove you somehow understand the history of the ME more than others, give it a rest PLEASE!
You are not smarter or more intelligent or better equipped to discuss this topic vs anyone else in here.
It's not a personal attack, it's just the same post/theme comes out again and again., IMHO.
Don't you have enough confidence at this point to state your POV once and let it go?

In the SP, I try hard not to repeat myself over and over and when I do I tend to make a note of it to everybody

@Jayrod
I'll gladly take the link off that you found unsettling, I understand how you feel

Cheers!

to be honest your post is the one most off kilter

 

[Ministry of Pain]

@Jayrod
I'll gladly take the link off that you found unsettling, I understand how you feel

I think you mean someone else, because I don't know what you are talking about.

Sorry, yes @BassNBrew if you scroll up and then you fly back to that post you took exception with a couple pages ago

 

[Ministry of Pain]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

I asked it above early this morning, but what is Israel supposed to do?

I blame Iran first, Hamas militants second, Gaza citizens third and Israel 4th in this mess. Iran is the real root issue. They've been stirring the pot and forcing everyone into this situation for decades now. Israel could have maybe handled a few things better with Gaza, but honestly it is all about the West Bank. Nobody gives a crap about that narrow strip of land in Gaza, but they all want full control over Jerusalem.

There is no doubt that Iran has played an important role (though we still don’t know if they’re directly involved in this latest affair.)

But it’s important to realize that the situation in Gaza precedes the Iranian Revolution in 1979. If that Revolution had never occurred, and Iran had stayed a monarchy under the Shah, with good relations with the USA and Israel, I’m not convinced that the story of Gaza would be significantly different. Radical groups like Hamas and Hezbollah would have found money and aid from other other sources.

I thought we were going to stop all these personal history lessons

You are on a mission to prove you somehow understand the history of the ME more than others, give it a rest PLEASE!
You are not smarter or more intelligent or better equipped to discuss this topic vs anyone else in here.
It's not a personal attack, it's just the same post/theme comes out again and again., IMHO.
Don't you have enough confidence at this point to state your POV once and let it go?

In the SP, I try hard not to repeat myself over and over and when I do I tend to make a note of it to everybody

@Jayrod
I'll gladly take the link off that you found unsettling, I understand how you feel

Cheers!

to be honest your post is the one most off kilter

I edited it, thanks for looking out for me

 

[parasaurolophus]

Up to 25 americans

 

[beer 30]

Why has Iran in particular been resistant to moving forward with peaceful Israeli relations? Of all the Islamic countries, why are they the ones everyone points to as supporting Hamas?

I mentioned it upthread to someone else but the majority of the ME doesn't even recognize Israeli existence. It's tough to accomplish much of anything when the folks across the table look through you to someone they do acknowledge and talk to them instead of directly to you.

Muslim supporters of Israel refers to both Muslims and cultural Muslims who support the right to self-determination of the Jewish people and the likewise existence of a Jewish homeland in the Southern Levant, traditionally known as the Land of Israel and corresponding to the modern polity known as the State of Israel. Muslim supporters of the Israeli state are widely considered to be a rare phenomenon in light of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict and the larger Arab–Israeli conflict. Within the Muslim world, the legitimacy of the State of Israel has been challenged since its inception, and support for Israel's right to exist is a minority orientation.

 

[Fat Nick]

Up to 25 americans

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out in all of this. Does Hamas treat them differently and leverage them in negotiations with the US directly? Do they treat them just like the Israelis?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

France has banned pro-Palestinian protests nationwide.

The US is arguably the least anti-Semitic country on earth. Well, the second least anti-Semitic, I suppose, after the obvious one. We haven't seen a huge uptick in that sort of thing here so far. Obviously things are a lot different in Europe and especially France, which has always done a horrible job of assimilating its north African population. I expect this conflict to be very divisive in the US, but it's not a tinderbox here like it could be in parts of Europe. Something to keep an eye on.

 

[dickey moe]

A man from Palestine talking about how Hamas holds all of their own people hostage.

Unless this somehow changes, I'm afraid the citizens of Gaza will remain pawns without much influence on their fate.

 

[dickey moe]

France has banned pro-Palestinian protests nationwide.

The US is arguably the least anti-Semitic country on earth. Well, the second least anti-Semitic, I suppose, after the obvious one. We haven't seen a huge uptick in that sort of thing here so far. Obviously things are a lot different in Europe and especially France, which has always done a horrible job of assimilating its north African population. I expect this conflict to be very divisive in the US, but it's not a tinderbox here like it could be in parts of Europe. Something to keep an eye on.

Yep.

We have a first amendment precisely to protect these types of protests. It doesn't mean they should be immune from ridicule or shaming.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I am sitting here in North America and I wouldn’t presume to interpret any countries response to potential refugees, mainly because I have never lived in a country that had to deal with 10,000s of them (or more).

I suspect it is not something a lot of countries want to jump to volunteer for just because they share the same faith.

If you're in America, your country takes in tens of thousands of refugees each year. That's part of the reason why I'm so willing to foist the Palestinians on Egypt and other Arab nations. The US and Europe have done their part in accepting refugees. Time for Arabs to step up.

I didn’t have any idea who hosts the most refugees, so I looked it up.

As a percentage of their population, many countries Arabic are at the top, with Lebanon and Jordan #1 & 2; even Egypt has more per capita refugees than the U.S. Saudi Arabia isn’t really contributing much though.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I am sitting here in North America and I wouldn’t presume to interpret any countries response to potential refugees, mainly because I have never lived in a country that had to deal with 10,000s of them (or more).

I suspect it is not something a lot of countries want to jump to volunteer for just because they share the same faith.

If you're in America, your country takes in tens of thousands of refugees each year. That's part of the reason why I'm so willing to foist the Palestinians on Egypt and other Arab nations. The US and Europe have done their part in accepting refugees. Time for Arabs to step up.

I didn’t have any idea who hosts the most refugees, so I looked it up.

As a percentage of their population, many countries Arabic are at the top, with Lebanon and Jordan #1 & 2; even Egypt has more per capita refugees than the U.S. Saudi Arabia isn’t really contributing much though.

Cool. How many refugees from Gaza does Egypt accept? Maybe we've been too hard on them.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

France has banned pro-Palestinian protests nationwide.

The US is arguably the least anti-Semitic country on earth. Well, the second least anti-Semitic, I suppose, after the obvious one. We haven't seen a huge uptick in that sort of thing here so far. Obviously things are a lot different in Europe and especially France, which has always done a horrible job of assimilating its north African population. I expect this conflict to be very divisive in the US, but it's not a tinderbox here like it could be in parts of Europe. Something to keep an eye on.

Give it time because if you start to see protests in the 30 biggest cities in America, things might change quickly.
So far so good, but wait until those Gaza hospitals are filled with people bleeding out
Eventually the humanitarian crisis(collateral damage as some say) is going to take center stage, IMHO
Be prepared for voices and comments that do not support Israel as they march into Gaza

 

[IvanKaramazov]

France has banned pro-Palestinian protests nationwide.

The US is arguably the least anti-Semitic country on earth. Well, the second least anti-Semitic, I suppose, after the obvious one. We haven't seen a huge uptick in that sort of thing here so far. Obviously things are a lot different in Europe and especially France, which has always done a horrible job of assimilating its north African population. I expect this conflict to be very divisive in the US, but it's not a tinderbox here like it could be in parts of Europe. Something to keep an eye on.

Give it time because if you start to see protests in the 30 biggest cities in America, things might change quickly.
So far so good, but wait until those Gaza hospitals are filled with people bleeding out
Eventually the humanitarian crisis(collateral damage as some say) is going to take center stage, IMHO
Be prepared for voices and comments that do not support Israel as they march into Gaza

I'm actually kind of optimistic that we won't see a lot of people in the street in the US. This isn't going to be anything like George Floyd for us, but I could definitely see that happening in France for sure.

(We'll see of course -- this is just a general armchair prediction with nothing behind it other than life experience).

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says

But Israel's PM describes any claim it received a specific warning as "totally fake news".

www.bbc.com

 

[Terminalxylem]

Why has Iran in particular been resistant to moving forward with peaceful Israeli relations? Of all the Islamic countries, why are they the ones everyone points to as supporting Hamas?

I mentioned it upthread to someone else but the majority of the ME doesn't even recognize Israeli existence. It's tough to accomplish much of anything when the folks across the table look through you to someone they do acknowledge and talk to them instead of directly to you.

Muslim supporters of Israel refers to both Muslims and cultural Muslims who support the right to self-determination of the Jewish people and the likewise existence of a Jewish homeland in the Southern Levant, traditionally known as the Land of Israel and corresponding to the modern polity known as the State of Israel. Muslim supporters of the Israeli state are widely considered to be a rare phenomenon in light of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict and the larger Arab–Israeli conflict. Within the Muslim world, the legitimacy of the State of Israel has been challenged since its inception, and support for Israel's right to exist is a minority orientation.

Yeah, in simplistic terms, I get the basic idea that muslims dislike jews~Israelis, largely related to disputes over occupation of what they view as their holy land. (I also understand antisemitism precedes the creation of Israel, but let’s keep it simple).

What’s less clear is why Saudi Arabia, on the surface at least, seems more willing to advance peaceful relations with Israel. Meanwhile, Iran is ostensibly pulling the strings of a terrorist organization, whose faith contrasts to the majority of their population’s. Of all islamic Middle Eastern countries, how has Iran evolved as the main benefactor of terrorism?

 

[Spartans Rule]

Why has Iran in particular been resistant to moving forward with peaceful Israeli relations? Of all the Islamic countries, why are they the ones everyone points to as supporting Hamas?

I thought Persians were mostly Shia, while Hamas is Sunni?

Not much democracy in the Middle East so governments often don't reflect the will of the people very well.

Iran was friendly with Israel prior to the Islamic Revolution, but then immediately severed ties. A good chunk of the Iranian people are probably OK with Israel's existence but the hardline theocrats in charge are not.

On the flip side, a lot of the Sunni Arab states are run by monarchs or dictators whose main political opposition is Islamist groups, so even if they hate Israel they're not willing to support Hamas and its ilk.

 

[Gr00vus]

Why has Iran in particular been resistant to moving forward with peaceful Israeli relations? Of all the Islamic countries, why are they the ones everyone points to as supporting Hamas?

I mentioned it upthread to someone else but the majority of the ME doesn't even recognize Israeli existence. It's tough to accomplish much of anything when the folks across the table look through you to someone they do acknowledge and talk to them instead of directly to you.

Muslim supporters of Israel refers to both Muslims and cultural Muslims who support the right to self-determination of the Jewish people and the likewise existence of a Jewish homeland in the Southern Levant, traditionally known as the Land of Israel and corresponding to the modern polity known as the State of Israel. Muslim supporters of the Israeli state are widely considered to be a rare phenomenon in light of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict and the larger Arab–Israeli conflict. Within the Muslim world, the legitimacy of the State of Israel has been challenged since its inception, and support for Israel's right to exist is a minority orientation.

Yeah, in simplistic terms, I get the basic idea that muslims dislike jews~Israelis, largely related to disputes over occupation of what they view as their holy land. (I also understand antisemitism precedes the creation of Israel, but let’s keep it simple).

What’s less clear is why Saudi Arabia, on the surface at least, seems more willing to advance peaceful relations with Israel. Meanwhile, Iran is ostensibly pulling the strings of a terrorist organization, whose faith contrasts to the majority of their population’s. Of all islamic Middle Eastern countries, how has Iran evolved as the main benefactor of terrorism?

Saudi Arabia is a pretty prosperous nation (not getting into the distribution of the wealth within the country here), with a lot of its economy integrated with Europe and the Americas, South East Asia, Oceania. They benefit from stability, status quo. Terrorists are the opposite of that.

Iran is trying to become an upper tier world power, is aligned with states like Russia, China, N. Korea, who are trying to take Europe and the U.S. down a few pegs. Iran wants to re-orient the main pathways of world economy. Iran benefits from chaos and instability. Terrorists create those things.

It doesn't logically follow that motivations and goals are the same for two nations solely because they are Islamic states - even when both are the same Islamic denomination. Bear in mind, even after this most recent reincarnation of the Israeli state, Muslims spend plenty of time and resources beating up on each other - as they've done since their original prophet died centuries ago.

 

[unckeyherb]

Why has Iran in particular been resistant to moving forward with peaceful Israeli relations? Of all the Islamic countries, why are they the ones everyone points to as supporting Hamas?

I mentioned it upthread to someone else but the majority of the ME doesn't even recognize Israeli existence. It's tough to accomplish much of anything when the folks across the table look through you to someone they do acknowledge and talk to them instead of directly to you.

This is correct. And to be clear, back in the early 2000's Israel promised to give most of the West Bank and all of Gaza to make a Palestinian State, if they would simply a. recognize the Jewish state and b. promise to live in peace alongside Israel. Palestinian authorities said no and then implemented suicide bombing s in Israel.

 

[beer 30]

Why has Iran in particular been resistant to moving forward with peaceful Israeli relations? Of all the Islamic countries, why are they the ones everyone points to as supporting Hamas?

I mentioned it upthread to someone else but the majority of the ME doesn't even recognize Israeli existence. It's tough to accomplish much of anything when the folks across the table look through you to someone they do acknowledge and talk to them instead of directly to you.

This is correct. And to be clear, back in the early 2000's Israel promised to give most of the West Bank and all of Gaza to make a Palestinian State, if they would simply a. recognize the Jewish state and b. promise to live in peace alongside Israel. Palestinian authorities said no and then implemented suicide bombing s in Israel.

I remember it well, wasn't that considered the closest we've ever gotten to some sort of peace between the two and the Palestinians just **** all over the deal? I kinda knew then that peace was never going to happen in that area until a blood letting occurred similar to what's about to unfold.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I am sitting here in North America and I wouldn’t presume to interpret any countries response to potential refugees, mainly because I have never lived in a country that had to deal with 10,000s of them (or more).

I suspect it is not something a lot of countries want to jump to volunteer for just because they share the same faith.

If you're in America, your country takes in tens of thousands of refugees each year. That's part of the reason why I'm so willing to foist the Palestinians on Egypt and other Arab nations. The US and Europe have done their part in accepting refugees. Time for Arabs to step up.

I didn’t have any idea who hosts the most refugees, so I looked it up.

As a percentage of their population, many countries Arabic are at the top, with Lebanon and Jordan #1 & 2; even Egypt has more per capita refugees than the U.S. Saudi Arabia isn’t really contributing much though.

Cool. How many refugees from Gaza does Egypt accept? Maybe we've been too hard on them.

I have no idea.

But my point is, many Arabic countries take in refugees (including Palestinians), at a rate far exceeding the US. Clearly, Gazans are a special type of refugee, with political baggage a little less amenable to being accepted with open arms.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask Egypt, or any country given the circumstances, to be so magnanimous.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Cool. How many refugees from Gaza does Egypt accept? Maybe we've been too hard on them.

I have no idea.

But my point is, many Arabic countries take in refugees (including Palestinians), at a rate far exceeding the US. Clearly, Gazans are a special type of refugee, with political baggage a little less amenable to being accepted with open arms.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask Egypt, or any country given the circumstances, to be so magnanimous.

Okay fair enough. But if it's not reasonable to ask Egypt et. al. to pitch in, then I'm really not interested in hearing their complaints about what comes next. If Egypt doesn't want to deal with them, then nobody can really complain that Israel isn't handing out fruit baskets.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Thanks all for explaining this like I'm a third grader.

I trained with a guy from Jordan, whose wife is Palestinian. We worked together in 2001. Following 9/11, a guest speaker mentioned something about the Taliban being savages.

My co-worker almost came to blows with the lecturer, literally shouting at him in the middle of a didactic session. His basic point was extremist groups wouldn't target Americans, if they just minded their own geopolitical business. Although he tried to suppress it, I could tell he had disdain for Israelis, and Jews, by proxy.

He also likened political fervor in the ME to sports in the US. Back then, I thought that seemed kinda crazy, but I get it now.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Cool. How many refugees from Gaza does Egypt accept? Maybe we've been too hard on them.

I have no idea.

But my point is, many Arabic countries take in refugees (including Palestinians), at a rate far exceeding the US. Clearly, Gazans are a special type of refugee, with political baggage a little less amenable to being accepted with open arms.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask Egypt, or any country given the circumstances, to be so magnanimous.

Okay fair enough. But if it's not reasonable to ask Egypt et. al. to pitch in, then I'm really not interested in hearing their complaints about what comes next. If Egypt doesn't want to deal with them, then nobody can really complain that Israel isn't handing out fruit baskets.

I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be concerned, even if they offer no solutions.

A war destabilizing the entire region is the stinkiest kind of fruit, like an outhouse filled with durian.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Thanks all for explaining this like I'm a third grader.

I trained with a guy from Jordan, whose wife is Palestinian. We worked together in 2001. Following 9/11, a guest speaker mentioned something about the Taliban being savages.

My co-worker almost came to blows with the lecturer, literally shouting at him in the middle of a didactic session. His basic point was extremist groups wouldn't target Americans, if they just minded their own geopolitical business. Although he tried to suppress it, I could tell he had disdain for Israelis, and Jews, by proxy.

He also likened political fervor in the ME to sports in the US. Back then, I thought that seemed kinda crazy, but I get it now.

I'm happy to be able to say that I've only ever met one antisemitic Middle Easterner, and that was just one guy from my undergrad years. I've worked with a bunch of MEs and Muslims of various stripes since, and to my knowledge none of them has been that way. Or at least they kept it to themselves, which I can live with I guess.

 

[unckeyherb]

Cool. How many refugees from Gaza does Egypt accept? Maybe we've been too hard on them.

I have no idea.

But my point is, many Arabic countries take in refugees (including Palestinians), at a rate far exceeding the US. Clearly, Gazans are a special type of refugee, with political baggage a little less amenable to being accepted with open arms.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask Egypt, or any country given the circumstances, to be so magnanimous.

Okay fair enough. But if it's not reasonable to ask Egypt et. al. to pitch in, then I'm really not interested in hearing their complaints about what comes next. If Egypt doesn't want to deal with them, then nobody can really complain that Israel isn't handing out fruit baskets.

I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be concerned, even if they offer no solutions.

A war destabilizing the entire region is the stinkiest kind of fruit, like an outhouse filled with durian.

Fair enough, but people should really think twice before they claim that Israel is an occupier (they do not occupy Gaza) or that Gaza specifically is an open air prison perpetrated by Israel. Israeli's share little to nothing culturally et al with the Palestinians. Egyptians share race/culture/religion/etc and are certainly able to bring SOME Palestinians into the fold. That they built a wall that would impress Trump says a lot. That they do all of this does not make the Palestinians plight more the fault of Israel.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

What’s less clear is why Saudi Arabia, on the surface at least, seems more willing to advance peaceful relations with Israel.

They’re starting to see what oil money brings and all of a sudden western culture doesn’t seem that bad and life seems a lot better. People are more likely to play nice when life is good.

 

[Gr00vus]

Cool. How many refugees from Gaza does Egypt accept? Maybe we've been too hard on them.

I have no idea.

But my point is, many Arabic countries take in refugees (including Palestinians), at a rate far exceeding the US. Clearly, Gazans are a special type of refugee, with political baggage a little less amenable to being accepted with open arms.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask Egypt, or any country given the circumstances, to be so magnanimous.

Okay fair enough. But if it's not reasonable to ask Egypt et. al. to pitch in, then I'm really not interested in hearing their complaints about what comes next. If Egypt doesn't want to deal with them, then nobody can really complain that Israel isn't handing out fruit baskets.

I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be concerned, even if they offer no solutions.

A war destabilizing the entire region is the stinkiest kind of fruit, like an outhouse filled with durian.

Fair enough, but people should really think twice before they claim that Israel is an occupier (they do not occupy Gaza) or that Gaza specifically is an open air prison perpetrated by Israel. Israeli's share little to nothing culturally et al with the Palestinians. Egyptians share race/culture/religion/etc and are certainly able to bring SOME Palestinians into the fold. That they built a wall that would impress Trump says a lot. That they do all of this does not make the Palestinians plight more the fault of Israel.

It looks like they're about to. Hopefully it's very temporary.

 

[BassNBrew]

Literally the funniest thing I've read today....

Russia calls Israeli missile strikes on Syria "gross violation" of international law​

From CNN’s Mariya Knight in Atlanta

Russia's foreign ministry on Thursday called Israel's missile strikes on Syria “a gross violation" of international law.
“These actions by the Israeli side constitute a gross violation of the sovereignty of the Syrian Arab Republic and the basic norms of international law,” the ministry said in a statement, adding “the lives of innocent people and the safety of international air traffic were exposed to a real threat.”
The statement said such actions could lead to “extremely dangerous consequences, since they can provoke an armed escalation throughout the region” and shouldn’t be allowed to take place.

 

[Stoneworker]

Fair enough, but people should really think twice before they claim that Israel is an occupier (they do not occupy Gaza) or that Gaza specifically is an open air prison perpetrated by Israel.

The U.N. may disagree.

Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007

The U.N., various human rights groups and legal scholars, citing the blockade, consider Gaza to still be under military occupation by Israel.

NBC News: Gaza strip explained

 

[parasaurolophus]

There are places that don't have running water because Hamas used the pipes to make rockets.

They are actually proud of this.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Cool. How many refugees from Gaza does Egypt accept? Maybe we've been too hard on them.

I have no idea.

But my point is, many Arabic countries take in refugees (including Palestinians), at a rate far exceeding the US. Clearly, Gazans are a special type of refugee, with political baggage a little less amenable to being accepted with open arms.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask Egypt, or any country given the circumstances, to be so magnanimous.

Okay fair enough. But if it's not reasonable to ask Egypt et. al. to pitch in, then I'm really not interested in hearing their complaints about what comes next. If Egypt doesn't want to deal with them, then nobody can really complain that Israel isn't handing out fruit baskets.

I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be concerned, even if they offer no solutions.

A war destabilizing the entire region is the stinkiest kind of fruit, like an outhouse filled with durian.

Fair enough, but people should really think twice before they claim that Israel is an occupier (they do not occupy Gaza) or that Gaza specifically is an open air prison perpetrated by Israel. Israeli's share little to nothing culturally et al with the Palestinians. Egyptians share race/culture/religion/etc and are certainly able to bring SOME Palestinians into the fold. That they built a wall that would impress Trump says a lot. That they do all of this does not make the Palestinians plight more the fault of Israel.

Excellent points

 

[unckeyherb]

Cool. How many refugees from Gaza does Egypt accept? Maybe we've been too hard on them.

I have no idea.

But my point is, many Arabic countries take in refugees (including Palestinians), at a rate far exceeding the US. Clearly, Gazans are a special type of refugee, with political baggage a little less amenable to being accepted with open arms.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask Egypt, or any country given the circumstances, to be so magnanimous.

Okay fair enough. But if it's not reasonable to ask Egypt et. al. to pitch in, then I'm really not interested in hearing their complaints about what comes next. If Egypt doesn't want to deal with them, then nobody can really complain that Israel isn't handing out fruit baskets.

I don't think it's unreasonable for them to be concerned, even if they offer no solutions.

A war destabilizing the entire region is the stinkiest kind of fruit, like an outhouse filled with durian.

Fair enough, but people should really think twice before they claim that Israel is an occupier (they do not occupy Gaza) or that Gaza specifically is an open air prison perpetrated by Israel. Israeli's share little to nothing culturally et al with the Palestinians. Egyptians share race/culture/religion/etc and are certainly able to bring SOME Palestinians into the fold. That they built a wall that would impress Trump says a lot. That they do all of this does not make the Palestinians plight more the fault of Israel.

It looks like they're about to. Hopefully it's very temporary.

But they haven't been. That's the point. Every horrible thing that Israel has done to the Palestinian has been in response to something far worse. That they are occupying Gaza while rooting out Hamas is about as measured a response I think any of us could hope for.

 

[unckeyherb]

Fair enough, but people should really think twice before they claim that Israel is an occupier (they do not occupy Gaza) or that Gaza specifically is an open air prison perpetrated by Israel.

The U.N. may disagree.

Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007

The U.N., various human rights groups and legal scholars, citing the blockade, consider Gaza to still be under military occupation by Israel.

NBC News: Gaza strip explained

How many Israelis live there? Military personnel? They turned Gaza over to the Palestinians more than a decade ago and have been under constant barrage from Hamas ever since. Sorry, enforcing a blockade is not occupying.

 

[Stoneworker]

Fair enough, but people should really think twice before they claim that Israel is an occupier (they do not occupy Gaza) or that Gaza specifically is an open air prison perpetrated by Israel.

The U.N. may disagree.

Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007

The U.N., various human rights groups and legal scholars, citing the blockade, consider Gaza to still be under military occupation by Israel.

NBC News: Gaza strip explained

How many Israelis live there? Military personnel? They turned Gaza over to the Palestinians more than a decade ago and have been under constant barrage from Hamas ever since. Sorry, enforcing a blockade is not occupying.

I'm just reporting a factual categorization from an objective source (U.N.). Sorry if it doesn't match your personalized one.

 

[Courtjester]

France has banned pro-Palestinian protests nationwide.

The US is arguably the least anti-Semitic country on earth. Well, the second least anti-Semitic, I suppose, after the obvious one. We haven't seen a huge uptick in that sort of thing here so far. Obviously things are a lot different in Europe and especially France, which has always done a horrible job of assimilating its north African population. I expect this conflict to be very divisive in the US, but it's not a tinderbox here like it could be in parts of Europe. Something to keep an eye on.

Give it time because if you start to see protests in the 30 biggest cities in America, things might change quickly.
So far so good, but wait until those Gaza hospitals are filled with people bleeding out
Eventually the humanitarian crisis(collateral damage as some say) is going to take center stage, IMHO
Be prepared for voices and comments that do not support Israel as they march into Gaza

I'm actually kind of optimistic that we won't see a lot of people in the street in the US. This isn't going to be anything like George Floyd for us, but I could definitely see that happening in France for sure.

(We'll see of course -- this is just a general armchair prediction with nothing behind it other than life experience).

It IS happening now in the US, but it one of those things that the MSM isn't covering at this point. TikTok, You Tube and other social media sites are showing the pro-Palestine crowd (which turned into basically pro-Hamas protests in NY specifically) doing deplorable things towards the pro-Israeli crowd.

I am betting this is just the tip of the iceberg. We are at the point where people are shocked by the attack, but as mentioned above, we are are just a stone's throw away from the narrative being that Israel is being too heavy handed in their response.

I worry about tomorrow and what could happen here with it being declared by Hamas as the National Jihad Day. Some idiot is going to do something--we are a nation just full of them at this point. I hope I am wrong. I just feel there are no good answers for this. I thank you all for this thread because I have learned a lot in here,

 

[CGRdrJoe]

just as a fyi tomorrow Hamas has called for a world wide day of Jihad, they are calling it "Al-Aqsa Flood". I received this from work and imo it’s credible because we haven’t received a peep about this until this email was sent out. I’ve been on this board for over 20 years now and would appreciate no screen shots and sharing with my name on it but changing into your own words and sharing with friends and family (especially overseas) is good.

 

[massraider]

https://twitter.com/IAFsite/status/1712484101763342772

Dozens of fighter jets and helicopters attacked a series of terrorist targets of the Hamas terrorist organization throughout the Gaza Strip. So far, the IAF has dropped about 6,000 bombs against Hamas targets.

https://x.com/wesleysmorgan/status/1712506126762197457?s=20

6,000 bombs into Gaza in 6 days.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Thanks all for explaining this like I'm a third grader.

I trained with a guy from Jordan, whose wife is Palestinian. We worked together in 2001. Following 9/11, a guest speaker mentioned something about the Taliban being savages.

My co-worker almost came to blows with the lecturer, literally shouting at him in the middle of a didactic session. His basic point was extremist groups wouldn't target Americans, if they just minded their own geopolitical business. Although he tried to suppress it, I could tell he had disdain for Israelis, and Jews, by proxy.

He also likened political fervor in the ME to sports in the US. Back then, I thought that seemed kinda crazy, but I get it now.

I'm happy to be able to say that I've only ever met one antisemitic Middle Easterner, and that was just one guy from my undergrad years. I've worked with a bunch of MEs and Muslims of various stripes since, and to my knowledge none of them has been that way. Or at least they kept it to themselves, which I can live with I guess.

I didn’t mean to suggest all MEers are anti-semites. Obviously, that’s a lot of people, with diverse backgrounds. But I guess it shouldn’t surprise me a Jordanian married to a Palestinian harbored a little anti-Israeli sentiment.

To my coworker’s point, nearly all MEs I’ve met have been passionate (and vocal) about politics. Relative apathy/ignorance for such topics might explain my lack of ME friends.

 

[Gr00vus]

Fair enough, but people should really think twice before they claim that Israel is an occupier (they do not occupy Gaza) or that Gaza specifically is an open air prison perpetrated by Israel.

The U.N. may disagree.

Israel has maintained a land, air and sea blockade on Gaza since 2007

The U.N., various human rights groups and legal scholars, citing the blockade, consider Gaza to still be under military occupation by Israel.

NBC News: Gaza strip explained

How many Israelis live there? Military personnel? They turned Gaza over to the Palestinians more than a decade ago and have been under constant barrage from Hamas ever since. Sorry, enforcing a blockade is not occupying.

I'm just reporting a factual categorization from an objective source (U.N.). Sorry if it doesn't match your personalized one.

Whatever word you want to use, the end result is, the Israelis are definitely making it very tough on the non-terrorist population of Gaza in an attempt to protect themselves from the terrorist population of Gaza. There has to be a way to let peaceful folks out who want to leave voluntarily.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Why has Iran in particular been resistant to moving forward with peaceful Israeli relations? Of all the Islamic countries, why are they the ones everyone points to as supporting Hamas?

I mentioned it upthread to someone else but the majority of the ME doesn't even recognize Israeli existence. It's tough to accomplish much of anything when the folks across the table look through you to someone they do acknowledge and talk to them instead of directly to you.

Muslim supporters of Israel refers to both Muslims and cultural Muslims who support the right to self-determination of the Jewish people and the likewise existence of a Jewish homeland in the Southern Levant, traditionally known as the Land of Israel and corresponding to the modern polity known as the State of Israel. Muslim supporters of the Israeli state are widely considered to be a rare phenomenon in light of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict and the larger Arab–Israeli conflict. Within the Muslim world, the legitimacy of the State of Israel has been challenged since its inception, and support for Israel's right to exist is a minority orientation.

Yeah, in simplistic terms, I get the basic idea that muslims dislike jews~Israelis, largely related to disputes over occupation of what they view as their holy land. (I also understand antisemitism precedes the creation of Israel, but let’s keep it simple).

What’s less clear is why Saudi Arabia, on the surface at least, seems more willing to advance peaceful relations with Israel. Meanwhile, Iran is ostensibly pulling the strings of a terrorist organization, whose faith contrasts to the majority of their population’s. Of all islamic Middle Eastern countries, how has Iran evolved as the main benefactor of terrorism?

Saudi Arabia is now run by a much younger leader and he and his group are a lot more interested in money, power and international prestige than prior regimes. (Not that prior leaders didn’t want those things, but they still had a more traditional old school view of things)

Iran has been controlled by power hungry, extremist Muslims since 1979 when they used the situation of an unsettled government and attempts by the people to revolt against the shah to take power and rule tyrannically.

Speaking of Iran and KSA, sort of interesting: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...tack&utm_medium=email&leadSource=uverify wall

Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince and de facto ruler Mohammed bin Salman discussed the war between Israel and Hamas in a call with Iran’s president, the first such conversation between the two leaders who normalized relations earlier this year. The crown prince, known as MBS, “underscored the Kingdom’s unwavering stance in standing up for the Palestinian cause” and support for comprehensive peace during his call with Ebrahim Raisi, according to a report by the state-run Saudi Press Agency. Iran’s state news agency said the two leaders “stressed the unity of the Islamic world,” adding that “they considered the crimes of the Zionist regime and the US’s green light the cause of the destructive insecurity.”

 

[Long Ball Larry]

as to why iran hates israel so much i read an article that says that iran views iteslf and all muslims as oppressed and especially the shia who lost to the sunnis in the 7th century and so when the shias came to power again in iran under khomeni when they kicked out the shah and the new shia leadership had a grievance agaisnt the entire idea of arab socialist nationalism and they wanted the entire arab world to unite under a secular revolutionary leadership in which israel would be wiped out as a key point and that put iran at the head of that proposed world order but at the same time within iran since the revolution there has not been purity there is just as much drug use and prostituoin and crime as anywhere else despite it being a totalitarian religious state but the one thing that iran holds on to is the idea that israel must be destoryed basically the powers that be there leverage it as a means to stay in power so it as a combination of the feeling of oppression including taking away the holy land from muslims irans view as the leader in the revoluation and people using the issue to stay in power i dont know if that is right or wrong but thats what the article said take that to the bank brohan

Take it to the West Bank

 

[parasaurolophus]

Whatever word you want to use, the end result is, the Israelis are definitely making it very tough on the non-terrorist population of Gaza in an attempt to protect themselves from the terrorist population of Gaza. There has to be a way to let peaceful folks out who want to leave voluntarily.

All 8 of them already left.