War in Israel (3 Viewers)

[The Commish]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Well, the next generation of terrorists anyway. Whether they are "Hamas" or not really doesn't matter. All these groups are pretty much the same kind of group. Their names are just different. We have decades of evidence showing us that when one of these groups goes away either a new group fills the void or the same group figures out how to hold on and regroup. Those are the two most likely scenarios. Usually it's the first one. "New boss, same as the old boss"

 

[Jayrod]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Gideon Levy made the point in his opinion piece in Haaretz earlier this week. If Levy weren’t an award-winning established Israeli journalist writing in Israel’s oldest and best known newspaper, he’d surely be vilified an a vile antisemite for expressing his long held beliefs.

https://archive.ph/2023.10.12-04450...el-price/0000018b-1476-d465-abbb-14f6262a0000

A few hundred armed Palestinians breached the barrier and invaded Israel in a way no Israeli imagined was possible. A few hundred people proved that it’s impossible to imprison 2 million people forever without paying a cruel price
Just as the smoky old Palestinian bulldozer tore through the world’s smartest barrier Saturday, it tore away at Israel’s arrogance and complacency. And that’s also how it tore away at the idea that it’s enough to occasionally attack Gaza with suicide drones – and sell them to half the world – to maintain security.

On Saturday, Israel saw pictures it has never seen before. Palestinian vehicles patrolling its cities, bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear away at that arrogance. The Gaza Palestinians have decided they’re willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. Is there any hope in that? No. Will Israel learn its lesson? No.

On Saturday they were already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about occupying the Strip and punishing Gaza “as it has never been punished before.” But Israel hasn’t stopped punishing Gaza since 1948, not for a moment.

After 75 years of abuse, the worse possible scenario awaits it once again. The threats of “flattening Gaza” prove only one thing: We haven’t learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay, even though Israel is paying a high price once again.


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu bears very great responsibility for what happened, and he must pay the price, but it didn’t start with him and it won’t end after he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza.

Gaza, most of whose residents are refugees created by Israel. Gaza, which has never known a single day of freedom.

Oof …that’s blunt. But he’s not wrong, is he?

I think he is partially right.

I think he is missing what the intent of the Gaza leaders and their backers are. There has been a concerted effort to force the Israeli's hand through Gaza. It is not a coincidence that their population growth rates are so high as they are literally trying to out-breed the Jews in an effort to encroach on them and push into Israel. They don't push back at Egypt and may even have an under the table arrangement to keep that back door closed so no one can leave Gaza. Everything is Israel's fault. Their living conditions, their oppression, their suffering; all portrayed to the world and even the Gaza citizens themselves that Israel is to blame. Make them the bad guys, garner support, push, push, push until something breaks. Maybe things were going too slow or they were realizing that Israel was OK with just leaving them be, so Hamas decided to accelerate, or maybe an all out war was always the plan.

Either way, Israel has been stuck between a rock and a hard place in regards to Gaza for decades. Now if you want to criticize Israel, the West Bank settlements are more morally questionable, IMO. In regards to Gaza, though, I just don't see what else they can do. Every time they let their guard down and try to be gentle, it bites them with terrorist attacks. They then get tougher and get blamed for being too harsh. It's a catch-22 and I don't think criticism or blame of the situation in Gaza is fair to lay at Israel's feet.

 

[Fat Nick]

No one is supporting the acts that Hamas did to civilians. But you and a few others are lumping Hamas with all of the people in Gaza.

How many times do we have to see "eliminate X and the problem is solved" only to see that it's really "eliminate X and create a vacuum for the next group to step in and carry on the cause"? I am 49 years old and this has been the pattern, consistently in the ME for my ENTIRE life

These two statements are one of the biggest challenges here honestly. The original hatred between Palestine and Israel came from the Zionist movement and the creation of Israel - which in many cases displaced Palestinians against their free will. We're at a point where honestly, very few (if any) people in Hamas were ACTUALLY displaced in the original creation of Israel (they're not old enough). So the hatred from the current Hamas stems from the oppression they've felt living in the West Bank/Gaza, NOT from personal displacement from their homes. Now...the current Non-Hamas Palestinians unfortunately have new fuel for hatred of Jewish Israel driven by the bombing of their homes...It's cyclical, and I think very common within terroristic groups. As I said earlier, Hamas ≠ Gaza...but Hamas is IN Gaza. Attacking Hamas has civilian non-Hamas casualties. These civilians harbor resentment that leads to future attacks.

One could say "If Palestinians wanted to stop the suffering, they'd boot Hamas out of Gaza and negotiate for peace," but that's not easy...potentially just not possible. As The Commish said - you eliminate one group, and another takes its place.

I completely disagree that the hatred stems from current treatment. There is no way that Arabs all across the Middle East hate Israel and want to kill them all just because the Gaza strip has issues. Just no way. There is so much more to hatred of Israel and it started before 1947. In the 1930s kids were throwing rocks at Jews and adults were making them walk barefoot.

That hatred is deep and evil and is taught to their children and has been for longer than you or I or Israel have been around.

I'm trying to understand how what you said is different than what he said. Reading both his comment and your response, it sounds like you guys are saying the same thing. FN's point is a good one that the current day group that is Hamas wasn't around (for the most part) for the origins of this battle, but they are living in the current battle. The gap between the two is likely filled with teaching and other experiences from elders within the religion or even within the family. That sort of thing has kept the fire burning/smoldering all this time. My view is that current treatment is validation for all the things they've been taught as they grew/grow up. That's within the group of Palestinians that see things more in line with Hamas. Now, throw on top of that all the Palestinians who haven't been taught all that historical stuff (right or wrong). Israel isn't making a distinction in events like this. That's virtually impossible. But for those who haven't been taught that history who are living among all those more sympathetic to Hamas, they are absolutely thinking "WTF Israel....what's you're deal? Can't we all just get along?!?!?!" So again...it's a mix of people. That's probably the most complex part of the whole thing.

Pretty obvious differences. He is saying the current people are fighting because of the current situation.

So the hatred from the current Hamas stems from the oppression they've felt living in the West Bank/Gaza, NOT from personal displacement from their homes.

I am saying they hate the Jews anyway. That hatred of Jews predates the current struggle and the 1947 struggles.

This is obvious because plenty of other places hate the Jews but won't take in Palestinians. So obviously their hatred of Jews has nothing to do with treatment of Palestinians.

I don't think that's what he's saying. But lets assume it is. For some bold, yes. For others, this current fight is the first meaningful validation of things they were taught would happen to them decades ago. There's also a group that had heard of attrocities and never seen them, then this happened and they are now all in on the hate. And then there's ANOTHER group that's like "WTF is going on?!?!?!?!". This isn't either/or. You're both correct.

Sorry - late to the replies as I was offline last night. Just to clear it up - I'm not sure what I was saying was clear enough to be divided 100% into either segment. My general point is...to make an analogy...that the wounds of the past never heal if you keep picking off the scab.

If everyone eventually laid down arms after some of the initial battles, the sins of our fathers and our enemies would gradually fade, but, as @The Commish pointed out, I totally agree that subsequent attacks and events validate the biases of the older generations. It's not to say the younger generations wouldn't have been taught to hate the Jewish, or that there wasn't a hatred prior to the creation of the Jewish state, but more that fires need fuel to burn. They hate the Jews and have hated them, but there's always been fuel.

I'd like to think that in a hypothetical world where conflict had been minimal for the last 40 years, the children 2 generations removed from the conflict might be more willing to say "My grandparents say Jewish/Palestinians are horrible people, but they've never done anything to me..." Are the current people fighting just because of the current situation? No. Would they be fighting were it not for RECENT events (i.e. would they be fighting ONLY based on the events of 1947 and earlier)? I'd argue they might not be. The fire started long ago - and would have burned out were it not for subsequent refueling.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

The reason Gaza exists is because the neighboring states attacked Israel years ago ... and lost. The people living in Gaza now could have been wiped out then. An agreement was made to create Gaza so that wouldn't happen. And Hamas' only mission is to violate that agreement and continue war on Israel.

We can argue about who owned the land when and where all the way back to ~4000 BC. The fact is there were tribal wars there even between the Jewish people. It's not new and it not Jewish vs Muslim back then. It's simply tribe vs tribe vs tribe, now with a major religion thrown into the mix thousands of years later.

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

War is hell. And the best way to continue that hell is to let your enemies survive. Their woman and kids will fight you now and for generations. Conflicts don't truly end through negotiation. They get pushed down the line. They end through evisceration of your enemies. The modern world will hate that statement. I don't even like it. It sounds terrible. I hate writing it. But it's a fact. If we want bloodshed to end, sometimes there is a steep short term price to be paid for true long term peace.

I don't care who wins. As long as there is a winner.

 

[BassNBrew]

22 americans

We have domestic terrorists that most of the time cannot get the number as high as this (thankfully)...and we're just talking about the Americans visiting Israel
2 people I play Tennis with have visited Israel in the last month, it's not uncommon at all to see Americans visiting Israel, not just those of Jewish faith.
22 Americans murdered as a result of the Hamas attack, I'm kind of shocked there isn't more outrage here in America.

-I clearly heard the POTUS say "Silence is Complicit"
-I remember Desert Shield in '91-'92 I was right at about my Senior Year of high school when I woke up one morning and saw what we had done under Bush
He didn't ask anyone's permission, he gave an order and it was carried out.

I would love to see something done unannounced that catches everyone off guard and I think for a brief moment the POTUS almost spilled the beans
But he was very careful in not saying what his exact plans were and he certainly wasn't about to announce them to anyone. That's the way he framed it.
I hope he borrows a page from the Gulf War and I wold like to see the Iranian Nuke Plants destroyed, the fact they have gotten this far with the plans is scary to me.
I keep hearing "Iranian Backed" and since they are mentioned with these groups all the time...a strong message needs to be sent.

I don't mean to be so violent with my words but I'm asking for the United States to find some military targets that will either cripple or severely hurt those who back these groups.
I still am concerned and worried what the video and pics will look like after Israel enters Gaza with intentions to stay and occupy for a while.

Just my opinion, but if you're traveling outside of the US, you are take your chances and waiving your protections. For many it's worth the risk but it's not our responsibility to go to war to bring your butt home. 25 years ago I retired from engineering because my company wanted me to travel to interior China while US soldiers were being held by China. Paycheck was worth the risk to me.

This post is just going to have links to stories, I'm not agreeing/disagreeing,
Sometimes it's the tone or certain adjectives used to describe things.

Maps and satellite images reveal Gaza devastation as Israel retaliates for Hamas attack

The Gaza Strip has been pounded by relentless airstrikes since Hamas militants launched a full-scale assault on southern Israel.

www.cbsnews.com

White House admits Biden has NOT seen 'Hamas beheading children'

Joe Biden on Wednesday condemned the 'pure cruelty' of Hamas' attack on Israel. 'I never really thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

-White House refutes the POTUS words in this speech, good to see they are all on the same page

I respectfully request that you delete this post. No need to mention US politicians in this thread.

 

[beer 30]

I keep trying to find the answer. What did Hama gain by this attack? As Israel can respond tenfold and wreck more havoc on the other side than Hamas ever could. Right now their own people will suffer more and more than they ever have because of their terror attack.

So here's my "throw it on the wall and see if it sticks" theory: All the leaders of Hamas are conveniently out of Gaza at the time of attacks, probably smart since Israel probably knows where they live/eat/**** within Gaza. Money talks, so what if they all got paid and agree that sacrificing Gaza/Hamas is for the greater good and will ignite the Muslim world to once & finally unite to destroy the Zionists. They are all fat & happy sitting on a pile of cash somewhere else so they don't have to deal with the fallout of that decision and the Muslim world gets its catalyst to war on Israel again.

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Not if there is no next generation

 

[Phil Elliott]

The reason Gaza exists is because the neighboring states attacked Israel years ago ... and lost. The people living in Gaza now could have been wiped out then. An agreement was made to create Gaza so that wouldn't happen. And Hamas' only mission is to violate that agreement and continue war on Israel.

We can argue about who owned the land when and where all the way back to ~4000 BC. The fact is there were tribal wars there even between the Jewish people. It's not new and it not Jewish vs Muslim back then. It's simply tribe vs tribe vs tribe, now with a major religion thrown into the mix thousands of years later.

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

War is hell. And the best way to continue that hell is to let your enemies survive. Their woman and kids will fight you now and for generations. Conflicts don't truly end through negotiation. They get pushed down the line. They end through evisceration of your enemies. The modern world will hate that statement. I don't even like it. It sounds terrible. I hate writing it. But it's a fact. If we want bloodshed to end, sometimes there is a steep short term price to be paid for true long term peace.

I don't care who wins. As long as there is a winner.

I care who wins.

 

[Da Guru]

This is how screwed up this situation is. I posted earlier that Dearborn MI has a large Mid-East population.

The day after the terror attack there were celebrations, people gathering in theaters, dancing with flags, cheering the attack. Now yesterday the same people are crying and protesting the brutality of Israels response.

Seriously..what did they expect to happen?

 

[timschochet]

So Israel is going to have a ground invasion of Gaza. Looks like they’re going to root out and destroy Hamas building by building, house by house. This will probably lead to the death of the hostages but let’s be brutally honest here- they’re likely doomed no matter what.

I don’t think this is a good decision long term, any more than our decisions to invade Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11 turned out to be. But once it starts it will be too late at that point for recriminations. The questions should then be:

1. What is the endgame?
2. What is to become of Gaza, and who will govern?
3. How will this conflict be prevented from escalating to surrounding countries?

On these issues I think the USA can and must play an important role.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Everybody always says this, but is anyone worried about the next generation of al Qaeda or ISIS leaders? You can do a lot of damage to groups like this if you're serious about it.

Boogey-Man/Strawman
-It's like people enjoy being in a conundrum, making up ridiculous excuses and reasons why things cannot be done.

I don't like to watch innocent people destroyed...but one has to ask when they look at Gaza and all those people crammed in there...how do those people allow a terrorist regime to lead them and control them? They are complicit(IMHO), there's 2 Million of them, we don't see one loud voice in that entire group speaking out and begging for the outside world to free them. None that hit my news circuits.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

-IK, I grew up in a Christian/Catholic family and my mother taught me that every day is a new day, a new opp to put your best foot forward. What happened yesterday is yesterday, it's how you see yourself moving forward. I loved that message and have tried to carry it with me. I also am prone to go after Walgreens Managers that miss price my Swedish Fish! Mom didn't teach to be that way

The mindset of what appears to be a lot of the population we've been discussing, "Silence is Complicit"
that's unfortunate but that is what we see over and over in this region.

 

[Sand]

So Israel is going to have a ground invasion of Gaza. Looks like they’re going to root out and destroy Hamas building by building, house by house. This will probably lead to the death of the hostages but let’s be brutally honest here- they’re likely doomed no matter what.

I don’t think this is a good decision long term, any more than our decisions to invade Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11 turned out to be. But once it starts it will be too late at that point for recriminations. The questions should then be:

1. What is the endgame?
2. What is to become of Gaza, and who will govern?
3. How will this conflict be prevented from escalating to surrounding countries?

On these issues I think the USA can and must play an important role.

The US should stay out of the governance discussion. Shah of Iran, Ghaddafi, Saddam, etc. Our track record is beyond awful with the aftermath of these things.

 

[beer 30]

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world.

You have to be willing to acknowledge your bargaining partner actually exists first. This causes a bit of a sticking point in negotiations. People are quick to say, "well sure but once we're past that..."

No, that is a fundamental hurdle you have to cross before ANYTHING else occurs. If you don't get past that, everything else is pie in the sky.

 

[Sand]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Gideon Levy made the point in his opinion piece in Haaretz earlier this week. If Levy weren’t an award-winning established Israeli journalist writing in Israel’s oldest and best known newspaper, he’d surely be vilified an a vile antisemite for expressing his long held beliefs.

https://archive.ph/2023.10.12-04450...el-price/0000018b-1476-d465-abbb-14f6262a0000

A few hundred armed Palestinians breached the barrier and invaded Israel in a way no Israeli imagined was possible. A few hundred people proved that it’s impossible to imprison 2 million people forever without paying a cruel price
Just as the smoky old Palestinian bulldozer tore through the world’s smartest barrier Saturday, it tore away at Israel’s arrogance and complacency. And that’s also how it tore away at the idea that it’s enough to occasionally attack Gaza with suicide drones – and sell them to half the world – to maintain security.

On Saturday, Israel saw pictures it has never seen before. Palestinian vehicles patrolling its cities, bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear away at that arrogance. The Gaza Palestinians have decided they’re willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. Is there any hope in that? No. Will Israel learn its lesson? No.

On Saturday they were already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about occupying the Strip and punishing Gaza “as it has never been punished before.” But Israel hasn’t stopped punishing Gaza since 1948, not for a moment.

After 75 years of abuse, the worse possible scenario awaits it once again. The threats of “flattening Gaza” prove only one thing: We haven’t learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay, even though Israel is paying a high price once again.


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu bears very great responsibility for what happened, and he must pay the price, but it didn’t start with him and it won’t end after he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza.

Gaza, most of whose residents are refugees created by Israel. Gaza, which has never known a single day of freedom.

Oof …that’s blunt. But he’s not wrong, is he?

There are like 9 Arab Muslim countries capable of taking refugees and have been capable since Gaza has existed. They all have said no, vehemently no. But then lay the blame on Israel, for whom if they let these folks in would have a rolling catastrophe of internal terrorism that would never go away. From the River to the Sea isn't just a mantra to the Palestinians, it's on oath (at least to a significant percentage).

Sorry, I reject this blame casting categorically.

The world would have been much better off if Israel had kept the 1967 lands and ejected the Gazans into Egypt. Sounds cruel, and it is, but it's better than the current environment.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

This is how screwed up this situation is. I posted earlier that Dearborn MI has a large Mid-East population.

The day after the terror attack there were celebrations, people gathering in theaters, dancing with flags, cheering the attack. Now yesterday the same people are crying and protesting the brutality of Israels response.

Seriously..what did they expect to happen?

That is human nature/emotions. I mean take sports for instance, Raider fans (me) are still angry about the tuck rule and cry about it to this day but had the very next year our team benefited from the tuck rule then I'd be celebrating in the streets and saying the tuck rule was the greatest thing ever.

Emotion doesn't always go hand in hand with thinking.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

This is how screwed up this situation is. I posted earlier that Dearborn MI has a large Mid-East population.

The day after the terror attack there were celebrations, people gathering in theaters, dancing with flags, cheering the attack. Now yesterday the same people are crying and protesting the brutality of Israels response.

Seriously..what did they expect to happen?

That is human nature/emotions. I mean take sports for instance, Raider fans (me) are still angry about the tuck rule and cry about it to this day but had the very next year our team benefited from the tuck rule then I'd be celebrating in the streets and saying the tuck rule was the greatest thing ever.

Emotion doesn't always go hand in hand with thinking.

My TL is filled to the brim with decapitated-baby-truthers and decolonization scholars telling everyone who will listen that the settlers had it coming. I'm really not interested in hearing about how these people are just getting a little over-excited about a developing news situation. They're straight-up Nazis and should be shunned accordingly. (I have myself to blame for this because I hate-followed like three people just to keep a tab on this discourse and now it's all that appears on the For You tab, but still).

 

[Sand]

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

Israel tried. There was a massive installation of greenhouses that the Gazans tore down out of spite. It would have fed a large number of people had those stayed.

Looters strip Gaza greenhouses

Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[The Z Machine]

This is how screwed up this situation is. I posted earlier that Dearborn MI has a large Mid-East population.

The day after the terror attack there were celebrations, people gathering in theaters, dancing with flags, cheering the attack. Now yesterday the same people are crying and protesting the brutality of Israels response.

Seriously..what did they expect to happen?

That is human nature/emotions. I mean take sports for instance, Raider fans (me) are still angry about the tuck rule and cry about it to this day but had the very next year our team benefited from the tuck rule then I'd be celebrating in the streets and saying the tuck rule was the greatest thing ever.

Emotion doesn't always go hand in hand with thinking.

My TL is filled to the brim with decapitated-baby-truthers and decolonization scholars telling everyone who will listen that the settlers had it coming. I'm really not interested in hearing about how these people are just getting a little over-excited about a developing news situation. They're straight-up Nazis and should be shunned accordingly.

Sounds like you need to cull your follows.

 

[Fat Nick]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

22 americans

We have domestic terrorists that most of the time cannot get the number as high as this (thankfully)...and we're just talking about the Americans visiting Israel
2 people I play Tennis with have visited Israel in the last month, it's not uncommon at all to see Americans visiting Israel, not just those of Jewish faith.
22 Americans murdered as a result of the Hamas attack, I'm kind of shocked there isn't more outrage here in America.

-I clearly heard the POTUS say "Silence is Complicit"
-I remember Desert Shield in '91-'92 I was right at about my Senior Year of high school when I woke up one morning and saw what we had done under Bush
He didn't ask anyone's permission, he gave an order and it was carried out.

I would love to see something done unannounced that catches everyone off guard and I think for a brief moment the POTUS almost spilled the beans
But he was very careful in not saying what his exact plans were and he certainly wasn't about to announce them to anyone. That's the way he framed it.
I hope he borrows a page from the Gulf War and I wold like to see the Iranian Nuke Plants destroyed, the fact they have gotten this far with the plans is scary to me.
I keep hearing "Iranian Backed" and since they are mentioned with these groups all the time...a strong message needs to be sent.

I don't mean to be so violent with my words but I'm asking for the United States to find some military targets that will either cripple or severely hurt those who back these groups.
I still am concerned and worried what the video and pics will look like after Israel enters Gaza with intentions to stay and occupy for a while.

Just my opinion, but if you're traveling outside of the US, you are take your chances and waiving your protections. For many it's worth the risk but it's not our responsibility to go to war to bring your butt home. 25 years ago I retired from engineering because my company wanted me to travel to interior China while US soldiers were being held by China. Paycheck was worth the risk to me.

This post is just going to have links to stories, I'm not agreeing/disagreeing,
Sometimes it's the tone or certain adjectives used to describe things.

Maps and satellite images reveal Gaza devastation as Israel retaliates for Hamas attack

The Gaza Strip has been pounded by relentless airstrikes since Hamas militants launched a full-scale assault on southern Israel.

www.cbsnews.com

White House admits Biden has NOT seen 'Hamas beheading children'

Joe Biden on Wednesday condemned the 'pure cruelty' of Hamas' attack on Israel. 'I never really thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

-White House refutes the POTUS words in this speech, good to see they are all on the same page

I respectfully request that you delete this post. No need to mention US politicians in this thread.

I want to BnB but I would like to explain why I inserted that story.

I think it's important the POTUS has his own lane. Let me explain...the POTUS in theory speaks for all of us. He does it anytime he's at the podium.
You might not have voted for him, you might like/dislike him, you might not agree with everything but he is OUR elected leader right now.
I don't put him in my post to punch down at, when he speaks to the World, he's speaking for all of us, right/wrong whatever.

-Personally I think he knew about the babies and there's been a lot more stories since then

Israeli military says babies WERE beheaded by Hamas

Israeli Defence Forces spokesman Jonathan Conricus said a coroner who visited the aftermath of the massacre at a kibbutz near Gaza saw the children's bodies and confirmed how they died

www.dailymail.co.uk

I found it odd that he said one thing with conviction, that story he spoke about has been proven true and the WH staff undermines him and says something else.
It makes me feel like the POTUS might be speaking with people that the WH staff outside of Andrew Sullivan, those people might not be invited or included in a military operation and that's what my following posts were about

I'd like to see the entire World wake up surprised like back in 1991
I'm sorry if that offended you but I hope as I explain myself you won't feel offended.

Thanks!

 

[Jayrod]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

I asked it above early this morning, but what is Israel supposed to do?

I blame Iran first, Hamas militants second, Gaza citizens third and Israel 4th in this mess. Iran is the real root issue. They've been stirring the pot and forcing everyone into this situation for decades now. Israel could have maybe handled a few things better with Gaza, but honestly it is all about the West Bank. Nobody gives a crap about that narrow strip of land in Gaza, but they all want full control over Jerusalem.

 

[Fat Nick]

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

Israel tried. There was a massive installation of greenhouses that the Gazans tore down out of spite. It would have fed a large number of people had those stayed.

Looters strip Gaza greenhouses

Palestinians looted dozens of greenhouses on Tuesday, walking off with irrigation hoses, water pumps and plastic sheeting in a blow to fledgling efforts to reconstruct the Gaza Strip.

www.nbcnews.com

Crazy fact from that article -

The median age of the Gazan population is 18, with 65% of the region's population under the age of 24.

That's nuts. The Median age is 18. 18....Meaning they've never known life outside of a walled-in Gaza and without Hamas.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

I asked it above early this morning, but what is Israel supposed to do?

I blame Iran first, Hamas militants second, Gaza citizens third and Israel 4th in this mess. Iran is the real root issue. They've been stirring the pot and forcing everyone into this situation for decades now. Israel could have maybe handled a few things better with Gaza, but honestly it is all about the West Bank. Nobody gives a crap about that narrow strip of land in Gaza, but they all want full control over Jerusalem.

"I blame Iran First"

-MoP agrees 100% with this, cannot emphasize enough where the focus should be of our military efforts. Israel can deal with Gaza on their own, they really don't need our help.
-I feel a strong message should be sent and those who fear Putin would do something are not following this War between them and Ukraine
Putin cannot start fighting on a 2nd front right now

Iran does not deserve nuke plants of any kind...BLOW THEM UP and don't think twice about it.

 

[Da Guru]

A man from Palestine talking about how Hamas holds all of their own people hostage.

 

[Fat Nick]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

I asked it above early this morning, but what is Israel supposed to do?

I blame Iran first, Hamas militants second, Gaza citizens third and Israel 4th in this mess. Iran is the real root issue. They've been stirring the pot and forcing everyone into this situation for decades now. Israel could have maybe handled a few things better with Gaza, but honestly it is all about the West Bank. Nobody gives a crap about that narrow strip of land in Gaza, but they all want full control over Jerusalem.

I didn't mean to indicate I think Israel should do anything else...it's just an awful situation. Totally agree with your blame ranking, but there's a massive gap between #2 and #3 in my eyes. Most Gaza citizens are just along for the ride because, sadly, they are powerless in this situation. Israel's hand was forced, and their actions are exactly as I think my actions would be if I was in their shoes....but I think Hamas' ranks swell after this, not dwindle.

My main point is that it is not fair to say "they should just oust Hamas and create their own government." I don't see how that is even remotely possible - it's no different than expecting Afghanistan to oust the Taliban by themselves. Of the 4 groups above, Gaza citizens have the least power, and the least ability to actually change the course of events.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

"Silence is complicit"

-You're not silent Nick but the people we are discussing are, and this is the very thing I posted about.
-It sort of sounds like NFL fans of perennial losing teams. They come up with all types of excuses why the team they have been rooting for 50 years, SUCKS!
I woke up a long time ago and just nail Stephen Ross to the Cross every chance I get because if I'm silent then I'm complicit. And I am not the most popular Miami Dolphins fan, think some of those folks wish i would make the Bucs my #1 vs #2 team.

I'm not pointing this at you Nick but it sounds like some people think of the Gaza population of 2M like they are the Sentinelese tribe of people.

 

[BassNBrew]

22 americans

We have domestic terrorists that most of the time cannot get the number as high as this (thankfully)...and we're just talking about the Americans visiting Israel
2 people I play Tennis with have visited Israel in the last month, it's not uncommon at all to see Americans visiting Israel, not just those of Jewish faith.
22 Americans murdered as a result of the Hamas attack, I'm kind of shocked there isn't more outrage here in America.

-I clearly heard the POTUS say "Silence is Complicit"
-I remember Desert Shield in '91-'92 I was right at about my Senior Year of high school when I woke up one morning and saw what we had done under Bush
He didn't ask anyone's permission, he gave an order and it was carried out.

I would love to see something done unannounced that catches everyone off guard and I think for a brief moment the POTUS almost spilled the beans
But he was very careful in not saying what his exact plans were and he certainly wasn't about to announce them to anyone. That's the way he framed it.
I hope he borrows a page from the Gulf War and I wold like to see the Iranian Nuke Plants destroyed, the fact they have gotten this far with the plans is scary to me.
I keep hearing "Iranian Backed" and since they are mentioned with these groups all the time...a strong message needs to be sent.

I don't mean to be so violent with my words but I'm asking for the United States to find some military targets that will either cripple or severely hurt those who back these groups.
I still am concerned and worried what the video and pics will look like after Israel enters Gaza with intentions to stay and occupy for a while.

Just my opinion, but if you're traveling outside of the US, you are take your chances and waiving your protections. For many it's worth the risk but it's not our responsibility to go to war to bring your butt home. 25 years ago I retired from engineering because my company wanted me to travel to interior China while US soldiers were being held by China. Paycheck was worth the risk to me.

This post is just going to have links to stories, I'm not agreeing/disagreeing,
Sometimes it's the tone or certain adjectives used to describe things.

Maps and satellite images reveal Gaza devastation as Israel retaliates for Hamas attack

The Gaza Strip has been pounded by relentless airstrikes since Hamas militants launched a full-scale assault on southern Israel.

www.cbsnews.com

White House admits Biden has NOT seen 'Hamas beheading children'

Joe Biden on Wednesday condemned the 'pure cruelty' of Hamas' attack on Israel. 'I never really thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.'

www.dailymail.co.uk

-White House refutes the POTUS words in this speech, good to see they are all on the same page

I respectfully request that you delete this post. No need to mention US politicians in this thread.

I want to BnB but I would like to explain why I inserted that story.

I think it's important the POTUS has his own lane. Let me explain...the POTUS in theory speaks for all of us. He does it anytime he's at the podium.
You might not have voted for him, you might like/dislike him, you might not agree with everything but he is OUR elected leader right now.
I don't put him in my post to punch down at, when he speaks to the World, he's speaking for all of us, right/wrong whatever.

-Personally I think he knew about the babies and there's been a lot more stories since then

Israeli military says babies WERE beheaded by Hamas

Israeli Defence Forces spokesman Jonathan Conricus said a coroner who visited the aftermath of the massacre at a kibbutz near Gaza saw the children's bodies and confirmed how they died

www.dailymail.co.uk

I found it odd that he said one thing with conviction, that story he spoke about has been proven true and the WH staff undermines him and says something else.
It makes me feel like the POTUS might be speaking with people that the WH staff outside of Andrew Sullivan, those people might not be invited or included in a military operation and that's what my following posts were about

I'd like to see the entire World wake up surprised like back in 1991
I'm sorry if that offended you but I hope as I explain myself you won't feel offended.

Thanks!

You didn’t offend me, you posted something against the rules that will get this thread **** down. NO domestic politics allowed. J has made an exception for international events. Don’t screw this up

 

[Fat Nick]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

"Silence is complicit"

-You're not silent Nick but the people we are discussing are, and this is the very thing I posted about.
-It sort of sounds like NFL fans of perennial losing teams. They come up with all types of excuses why the team they have been rooting for 50 years, SUCKS!
I woke up a long time ago and just nail Stephen Ross to the Cross every chance I get because if I'm silent then I'm complicit. And I am not the most popular Miami Dolphins fan, think some of those folks wish i would make the Bucs my #1 vs #2 team.

I'm not pointing this at you Nick but it sounds like some people think of the Gaza population of 2M like they are the Sentinelese tribe of people.

In general, I'd agree with "Silence is complicit," and I'd certainly agree in your football analogy, but I'd argue "Silence is complicit" may not apply when choosing to speak your mind on a topic could easily lead to your death at the hands of Hamas. In that case, you're choosing the lesser of two evils.

When your two best outcomes are 1) Death from Hamas for trying to remove them and hope for a better world, or 2) Possible death from Israeli missile strikes in retaliation for what Hamas did, I'm not sure you have a good option.

 

[timschochet]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

I asked it above early this morning, but what is Israel supposed to do?

I blame Iran first, Hamas militants second, Gaza citizens third and Israel 4th in this mess. Iran is the real root issue. They've been stirring the pot and forcing everyone into this situation for decades now. Israel could have maybe handled a few things better with Gaza, but honestly it is all about the West Bank. Nobody gives a crap about that narrow strip of land in Gaza, but they all want full control over Jerusalem.

There is no doubt that Iran has played an important role (though we still don’t know if they’re directly involved in this latest affair.)

But it’s important to realize that the situation in Gaza precedes the Iranian Revolution in 1979. If that Revolution had never occurred, and Iran had stayed a monarchy under the Shah, with good relations with the USA and Israel, I’m not convinced that the story of Gaza would be significantly different. Radical groups like Hamas and Hezbollah would have found money and aid from other other sources.

 

[Jagov]

Reports that Israel has attacked airports in Damascus & Aleppo in Syria

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1712449214297395619

 

[DA RAIDERS]

So Israel is going to have a ground invasion of Gaza. Looks like they’re going to root out and destroy Hamas building by building, house by house. This will probably lead to the death of the hostages but let’s be brutally honest here- they’re likely doomed no matter what.

I don’t think this is a good decision long term, any more than our decisions to invade Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11 turned out to be. But once it starts it will be too late at that point for recriminations. The questions should then be:

1. What is the endgame?
2. What is to become of Gaza, and who will govern?
3. How will this conflict be prevented from escalating to surrounding countries?

On these issues I think the USA can and must play an important role.

The US should stay out of the governance discussion. Shah of Iran, Ghaddafi, Saddam, etc. Our track record is beyond awful with the aftermath of these things.

Agreed. I want the U.S. to stay out of it

 

[Stoneworker]

At times it is easy to be mad at the world for the situation I was born into and adversity I had to face.

But there is a close to zero chance that me or my family will ever face the horrors that civilians on both sides of this conflict face and for that I am filled with gratitude.

Veterans Day will be here in four weeks.

Great oppty to express that gratitude directly to those responsible for providing said peace and prosperity to U.S. civilians

 

[Sand]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[timschochet]

So Israel is going to have a ground invasion of Gaza. Looks like they’re going to root out and destroy Hamas building by building, house by house. This will probably lead to the death of the hostages but let’s be brutally honest here- they’re likely doomed no matter what.

I don’t think this is a good decision long term, any more than our decisions to invade Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11 turned out to be. But once it starts it will be too late at that point for recriminations. The questions should then be:

1. What is the endgame?
2. What is to become of Gaza, and who will govern?
3. How will this conflict be prevented from escalating to surrounding countries?

On these issues I think the USA can and must play an important role.

The US should stay out of the governance discussion. Shah of Iran, Ghaddafi, Saddam, etc. Our track record is beyond awful with the aftermath of these things.

Agreed. I want the U.S. to stay out of it

So long as we are dependent on the flow of Middle East petroleum, anything that happens there is our vital concern. That’s the reality however much we might wish it otherwise. And what we do now, in terms of diplomacy, might prevent what we might have to do later, militarily. And yes we’re also going to have to shell out money to help fix Gaza when this current mess is completed.

I fully realize that what I just wrote is going to be unpopular. I don’t much like it myself. But we can’t escape these things by wishing them away.

 

[timschochet]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Well so much for not escalating things.

 

[need2know]

if only we produced more oil here

 

[Sand]

So long as we are dependent on the flow of Middle East petroleum, anything that happens there is our vital concern.

That's a massively political rabbit hole. I'm biting back on saying what I'm thinking here. I don't think we can roll this one around without getting this killed.

 

[Sand]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Well so much for not escalating things.

By the Iranians, absolutely. We know that the discussion wasn't going to center around restraint and peacemaking.

 

[timschochet]

So long as we are dependent on the flow of Middle East petroleum, anything that happens there is our vital concern.

That's a massively political rabbit hole. I'm biting back on saying what I'm thinking here. I don't think we can roll this one around without getting this killed.

OK

 

[DA RAIDERS]

So Israel is going to have a ground invasion of Gaza. Looks like they’re going to root out and destroy Hamas building by building, house by house. This will probably lead to the death of the hostages but let’s be brutally honest here- they’re likely doomed no matter what.

I don’t think this is a good decision long term, any more than our decisions to invade Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11 turned out to be. But once it starts it will be too late at that point for recriminations. The questions should then be:

1. What is the endgame?
2. What is to become of Gaza, and who will govern?
3. How will this conflict be prevented from escalating to surrounding countries?

On these issues I think the USA can and must play an important role.

The US should stay out of the governance discussion. Shah of Iran, Ghaddafi, Saddam, etc. Our track record is beyond awful with the aftermath of these things.

Agreed. I want the U.S. to stay out of it

So long as we are dependent on the flow of Middle East petroleum, anything that happens there is our vital concern. That’s the reality however much we might wish it otherwise. And what we do now, in terms of diplomacy, might prevent what we might have to do later, militarily. And yes we’re also going to have to shell out money to help fix Gaza when this current mess is completed.

I fully realize that what I just wrote is going to be unpopular. I don’t much like it myself. But we can’t escape these things by wishing them away.

Staying out of this and not being a broker of what comes next would actually curry favor from many in the Arab world. IMHO

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Understand why you posted this, but I have not seen the story picked up anywhere else, so I am skeptical

 

[sho nuff]

if only we produced more oil here

We are on track to produce more here than ever before (july numbers were just barely short of that) and were recently more energy independent than ever before (according to the EIA…Id post the article but it gets a bit political and thus could get the thread locked).

 

[parasaurolophus]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Well so much for not escalating things.

Syria attacked Israel Tuesday.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

"Silence is complicit"

-You're not silent Nick but the people we are discussing are, and this is the very thing I posted about.
-It sort of sounds like NFL fans of perennial losing teams. They come up with all types of excuses why the team they have been rooting for 50 years, SUCKS!
I woke up a long time ago and just nail Stephen Ross to the Cross every chance I get because if I'm silent then I'm complicit. And I am not the most popular Miami Dolphins fan, think some of those folks wish i would make the Bucs my #1 vs #2 team.

I'm not pointing this at you Nick but it sounds like some people think of the Gaza population of 2M like they are the Sentinelese tribe of people.

In general, I'd agree with "Silence is complicit," and I'd certainly agree in your football analogy, but I'd argue "Silence is complicit" may not apply when choosing to speak your mind on a topic could easily lead to your death at the hands of Hamas. In that case, you're choosing the lesser of two evils.

When your two best outcomes are 1) Death from Hamas for trying to remove them and hope for a better world, or 2) Possible death from Israeli missile strikes in retaliation for what Hamas did, I'm not sure you have a good option.

I appreciate the follow up and it definitely helps me understand where you are coming from

That's the hug emoji, haha

 

[Psychopav]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Well so much for not escalating things.

Syria attacked Israel Tuesday.

Syria or terrorist groups from within Syria? I had thought it was the latter.

 

[Jagov]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Understand why you posted this, but I have not seen the story picked up anywhere else, so I am skeptical

BBC World

https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1712493742031077817

 

[Fat Nick]

The fact is the people in Gaza that are not directly fighting for Hamas are still complicit. They could have fought against Hamas. They choose to support or accept it ... civilians, women, men, whoever.

I bet if Gaza had real leaders and asked Israel to help them evolve into a more modern society and increase commerce, I bet Israel would have helped in some way if they were serious in joining the modern world. Too late now but they miss so many opportunities to save face ad have a "New Day"

I struggle with this line of thinking - And honestly this is why I maybe feel for the Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians in Gaza more than some. What choice do they really have here? How do you think Hamas as an organization would feel about Non-Hamas leaning Palestinians trying to remove them or trying to play nice with Israel? What tools would that group even have to wage war to oust Hamas? We've already seen that Israel cuts them off from a lot, and that Hamas gets funding from other entities. Any non-Hamas group internal to Gaza has no ammo what so ever to fight Hamas. They're too Palestenian for Israel to care, and peace doesn't fit the agenda of Hamas, Iran, etc. I think Hamas is the sole reason Gaza has no real government. They won't let any group gain power there. It's their base of operations. Sadly, their base of operations is comingled with civilians. SOME of who would probably choose to have them gone if they could...but they can't.

"Silence is complicit"

-You're not silent Nick but the people we are discussing are, and this is the very thing I posted about.
-It sort of sounds like NFL fans of perennial losing teams. They come up with all types of excuses why the team they have been rooting for 50 years, SUCKS!
I woke up a long time ago and just nail Stephen Ross to the Cross every chance I get because if I'm silent then I'm complicit. And I am not the most popular Miami Dolphins fan, think some of those folks wish i would make the Bucs my #1 vs #2 team.

I'm not pointing this at you Nick but it sounds like some people think of the Gaza population of 2M like they are the Sentinelese tribe of people.

In general, I'd agree with "Silence is complicit," and I'd certainly agree in your football analogy, but I'd argue "Silence is complicit" may not apply when choosing to speak your mind on a topic could easily lead to your death at the hands of Hamas. In that case, you're choosing the lesser of two evils.

When your two best outcomes are 1) Death from Hamas for trying to remove them and hope for a better world, or 2) Possible death from Israeli missile strikes in retaliation for what Hamas did, I'm not sure you have a good option.

I appreciate the follow up and it definitely helps me understand where you are coming from

That's the hug emoji, haha

All good - FBG is still the go-to for civilized arguments. It's part of what has kept me coming back for 20+ years now. Finding a place to go for civilized discussions with diverse viewpoints where we can agree on some things, and agree to disagree on others and still hug it out at the end of the day are getting harder and harder to find.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Well so much for not escalating things.

Syria attacked Israel Tuesday.

Syria or terrorist groups from within Syria? I had thought it was the latter.

I don't think it is confirmed who did it. I only saw it as a blurb inside a larger Reuters article.

With these governments though that distinction means nothing.

 

[tommyGunZ]

if only we produced more oil here

To be clear, we are producing more oil than ever before. https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=M

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Well so much for not escalating things.

Syria attacked Israel Tuesday.

Syria or terrorist groups from within Syria? I had thought it was the latter.

I don't think it is confirmed who did it. I only saw it as a blurb inside a larger Reuters article.

With these governments though that distinction means nothing.

Seems inconceivable to me that the Syrian government would launch a military strike against Israel. First, we would have heard about that for sure, and second it would be suicidal.

This is way more likely to be whatever militant group is over there. Plausible deniability if nothing else.

 

[Psychopav]

Hadn't seen this anywhere else. Not sure I trust this source, but will throw it out there with that proviso. Reportedly the Israelis have bombed the Damascus and Aleppo airports to keep Iranian officials from landing and meeting with the Syrians.

Americans Killed By Hamas Rises To 27, Over A Dozen Captive, As US Arranges Evacuation Flights | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Well so much for not escalating things.

Syria attacked Israel Tuesday.

Syria or terrorist groups from within Syria? I had thought it was the latter.

I don't think it is confirmed who did it. I only saw it as a blurb inside a larger Reuters article.

With these governments though that distinction means nothing.

Seems inconceivable to me that the Syrian government would launch a military strike against Israel. First, we would have heard about that for sure, and second it would be suicidal.

This is way more likely to be whatever militant group is over there. Plausible deniability if nothing else.

That's what I figured too.