War in Israel (4 Viewers)

[Da Guru]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

Don’t doubt it, but I think my point is they won’t be finding many hamas leaders in Gaza - they need to cut the head off the snake first and I don’t believe they can accomplish that by starting a ground war in Gaza.

Gather intelligence and find the big targets wherever they are hiding and don’t ask permission from the leaders of the countries they are hiding in.

Already being planned.

Zero doubt - Mossad is very deliberate.

I am just wondering when the shelling of Gaza is going to end - it’s a tight rope Israel is walking. They have shown the force in which they can respond, now what is the end game there? Continued destruction which no doubt will include significant innocent casualties?

Have to think much of the hamas force is retreating as part of their next phase.

I keep trying to find the answer. What did Hama gain by this attack? As Israel can respond tenfold and wreck more havoc on the other side than Hamas ever could. Right now their own people will suffer more and more than they ever have because of their terror attack.

 

[Phil Elliott]

It seems an appropriate comment for those supporting Palestinians is "I support Palestine, but reject Hamas and the killing of innocent civilians".

Honestly, this is very "sus," as the kids say.

When Russian armor was rolling into Ukraine, how would you have reacted to someone who put a little Russian flag in their bio and started suddenly waxing poetic about the dignity of the good, hard-working citizens of Russia who shouldn't all be lumped in with Putin, along with hair-splitting and out-of-context interpretations of international law that coincidently seem to all have the effect of tying the hands of Ukraine?

We all know bad-faith concern trolling when we see it. This isn't our first trip to the internet.

I don't find this analogy fitting at all. To be clear, if Ukraine fought back the Russian offensive, then went into Russia and were murdering/starving innocent Russian civilians, those of us who support Ukrainian independence would absolutely condemn their war crimes.

Virtually every person in this thread who is showing empathy for innocent Palestinians have also strongly condemned Hamas, called them terrorists, and agrees Israel is justified in bringing Hamas to justice. I would like to think even the most hard line Israelis also have empathy for innocent Palestinians, but unfortunately we know that human nature means emotions often trump rational thinking during these events.

Sorry for the misunderstanding...this was not addressed at any posters here. It was addressed to opinions expressed by many public demonstrations around the world and US politicians.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I am sitting here in North America and I wouldn’t presume to interpret any countries response to potential refugees, mainly because I have never lived in a country that had to deal with 10,000s of them (or more).

I suspect it is not something a lot of countries want to jump to volunteer for just because they share the same faith.

If you're in America, your country takes in tens of thousands of refugees each year. That's part of the reason why I'm so willing to foist the Palestinians on Egypt and other Arab nations. The US and Europe have done their part in accepting refugees. Time for Arabs to step up.

 

[Todem]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

Don’t doubt it, but I think my point is they won’t be finding many hamas leaders in Gaza - they need to cut the head off the snake first and I don’t believe they can accomplish that by starting a ground war in Gaza.

Gather intelligence and find the big targets wherever they are hiding and don’t ask permission from the leaders of the countries they are hiding in.

Already being planned.

Zero doubt - Mossad is very deliberate.

I am just wondering when the shelling of Gaza is going to end - it’s a tight rope Israel is walking. They have shown the force in which they can respond, now what is the end game there? Continued destruction which no doubt will include significant innocent casualties?

Have to think much of the hamas force is retreating as part of their next phase.

I keep trying to find the answer. What did Hama gain by this attack? As Israel can respond tenfold and wreck more havoc on the other side than Hamas ever could. Right now their own people will suffer more and more than they ever have because of their terror attack.

In there minds they hope to start WWIII.

Being serious.

 

[Gr00vus]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

Don’t doubt it, but I think my point is they won’t be finding many hamas leaders in Gaza - they need to cut the head off the snake first and I don’t believe they can accomplish that by starting a ground war in Gaza.

Gather intelligence and find the big targets wherever they are hiding and don’t ask permission from the leaders of the countries they are hiding in.

Already being planned.

Zero doubt - Mossad is very deliberate.

I am just wondering when the shelling of Gaza is going to end - it’s a tight rope Israel is walking. They have shown the force in which they can respond, now what is the end game there? Continued destruction which no doubt will include significant innocent casualties?

Have to think much of the hamas force is retreating as part of their next phase.

One of the Israeli Colonels was on the news last night saying there were several hundred (I forget the exact number) more buildings they were targeting as housing Hamas infrastructure. I imagine once they've destroyed all those buildings, they'll reduce shelling and commence with ground activities.

 

[Todem]

From my understanding...I was told by a family member they think Egypt is now negotiating with Israel to take in innocent Palestinians before any ground invasion begins.

I only have my family in Israel as a source on that.

 

[beer 30]

I am sitting here in North America and I wouldn’t presume to interpret any countries response to potential refugees, mainly because I have never lived in a country that had to deal with 10,000s of them (or more).

I suspect it is not something a lot of countries want to jump to volunteer for just because they share the same faith.

Yes you have, and are. You can call them what you like but the situation is directly relatable. And I'll leave it there.

 

[Phil Elliott]

It seems an appropriate comment for those supporting Palestinians is "I support Palestine, but reject Hamas and the killing of innocent civilians".

Honestly, this is very "sus," as the kids say.

When Russian armor was rolling into Ukraine, how would you have reacted to someone who put a little Russian flag in their bio and started suddenly waxing poetic about the dignity of the good, hard-working citizens of Russia who shouldn't all be lumped in with Putin, along with hair-splitting and out-of-context interpretations of international law that coincidently seem to all have the effect of tying the hands of Ukraine?

We all know bad-faith concern trolling when we see it. This isn't our first trip to the internet.

If Ukraine was ten times as powerful as Russia, and had responded to the invasion by the indiscriminate starvation and murder of Russian civilians Im pretty sure there would be plenty of criticism for Ukraine and it might be well deserved.

But I regard Ukraine, and Israel, as the good guys in these affairs. But that judgment has to be conditional. Good guys have to act like good guys, or they are no longer good guys.

No trolling intended. I am supportive of Ukraine and Israel also. I think the invasion into Ukraine could have been prevented as Russia started positioning troops 12 months in advance. Israel has given a 24 hour warning to leave Gaza. A new "govt" has just been created in Gaza. Hope this all ends soon.

 

[parasaurolophus]

No one is supporting the acts that Hamas did to civilians. But you and a few others are lumping Hamas with all of the people in Gaza.

How many times do we have to see "eliminate X and the problem is solved" only to see that it's really "eliminate X and create a vacuum for the next group to step in and carry on the cause"? I am 49 years old and this has been the pattern, consistently in the ME for my ENTIRE life

These two statements are one of the biggest challenges here honestly. The original hatred between Palestine and Israel came from the Zionist movement and the creation of Israel - which in many cases displaced Palestinians against their free will. We're at a point where honestly, very few (if any) people in Hamas were ACTUALLY displaced in the original creation of Israel (they're not old enough). So the hatred from the current Hamas stems from the oppression they've felt living in the West Bank/Gaza, NOT from personal displacement from their homes. Now...the current Non-Hamas Palestinians unfortunately have new fuel for hatred of Jewish Israel driven by the bombing of their homes...It's cyclical, and I think very common within terroristic groups. As I said earlier, Hamas ≠ Gaza...but Hamas is IN Gaza. Attacking Hamas has civilian non-Hamas casualties. These civilians harbor resentment that leads to future attacks.

One could say "If Palestinians wanted to stop the suffering, they'd boot Hamas out of Gaza and negotiate for peace," but that's not easy...potentially just not possible. As The Commish said - you eliminate one group, and another takes its place.

I completely disagree that the hatred stems from current treatment. There is no way that Arabs all across the Middle East hate Israel and want to kill them all just because the Gaza strip has issues. Just no way. There is so much more to hatred of Israel and it started before 1947. In the 1930s kids were throwing rocks at Jews and adults were making them walk barefoot.

That hatred is deep and evil and is taught to their children and has been for longer than you or I or Israel have been around.

I'm trying to understand how what you said is different than what he said. Reading both his comment and your response, it sounds like you guys are saying the same thing. FN's point is a good one that the current day group that is Hamas wasn't around (for the most part) for the origins of this battle, but they are living in the current battle. The gap between the two is likely filled with teaching and other experiences from elders within the religion or even within the family. That sort of thing has kept the fire burning/smoldering all this time. My view is that current treatment is validation for all the things they've been taught as they grew/grow up. That's within the group of Palestinians that see things more in line with Hamas. Now, throw on top of that all the Palestinians who haven't been taught all that historical stuff (right or wrong). Israel isn't making a distinction in events like this. That's virtually impossible. But for those who haven't been taught that history who are living among all those more sympathetic to Hamas, they are absolutely thinking "WTF Israel....what's you're deal? Can't we all just get along?!?!?!" So again...it's a mix of people. That's probably the most complex part of the whole thing.

Pretty obvious differences. He is saying the current people are fighting because of the current situation.

So the hatred from the current Hamas stems from the oppression they've felt living in the West Bank/Gaza, NOT from personal displacement from their homes.

I am saying they hate the Jews anyway. That hatred of Jews predates the current struggle and the 1947 struggles.

This is obvious because plenty of other places hate the Jews but won't take in Palestinians. So obviously their hatred of Jews has nothing to do with treatment of Palestinians.

 

[Sand]

This too: "You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising."

Who is responsible for this?

It sure as heck isn't all Israel's fault.

Iran, Hamas, the Palestinians themselves have built their world in Gaza with one goal in mind, to go after Israel.

They made their bed and are going to lie in it. This was intentional. Millions of dollars spent on Rockets and guns instead of infrastructure. Training soldiers instead of farmers. They did this to themselves specifically so they could try and get the world to sympathize and many are falling for it.

Equally as ridiculous is conflating the land grab in the West Bank with Gaza.

Israel doesn't care to settle Gaza and has zero settlements there so why is it being used to "justify" Hamas?

Nothing in the quote says anything that you are attempting to make it say.

If you think Israel has clean hands in this, then there really isn't anything further to discuss. It will just be circular arguments.

Yet your post says it all, you think Hamas has "reasons".

I mean just say it @Snotbubbles
This attack was justified in your eyes.

You and several others are in here using whataboutism, saying Israel is doing "ethnic cleansing", etc all DAYS after a horrific terrorist attack.

I'm done here. Anti-Semites gonna anti-Semite I guess

Joe, mods, whoever can just ban me because I'm not playing nice with the likes of these guys. If you think the Jews are to blame for any of this, you are willfully ignorant or just plain stupid.

Palestinians who can't move out of Gaza are now being killed because of Hamas, 2 wrongs do not make a right.

I wish there was a way for an escape corridor for women/children to Iran. Iran is really the only logical spot for them as most surrounding Arab states are Sunni - Iran is the only Shia state around, I think.

 

[Sand]

From my understanding...I was told by a family member they think Egypt is now negotiating with Israel to take in innocent Palestinians before any ground invasion begins.

I remain skeptical. Let's face it, Hamas values a dead child on the front page of a newspaper way, way more than an alive child in another country.

 

[Da Guru]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

Don’t doubt it, but I think my point is they won’t be finding many hamas leaders in Gaza - they need to cut the head off the snake first and I don’t believe they can accomplish that by starting a ground war in Gaza.

Gather intelligence and find the big targets wherever they are hiding and don’t ask permission from the leaders of the countries they are hiding in.

Already being planned.

Zero doubt - Mossad is very deliberate.

I am just wondering when the shelling of Gaza is going to end - it’s a tight rope Israel is walking. They have shown the force in which they can respond, now what is the end game there? Continued destruction which no doubt will include significant innocent casualties?

Have to think much of the hamas force is retreating as part of their next phase.

I keep trying to find the answer. What did Hamas gain by this attack? As Israel can respond tenfold and wreck more havoc on the other side than Hamas ever could. Right now their own people will suffer more and more than they ever have because of their terror attack.

In there minds they hope to start WWIII.

Being serious.

I agree 100% We are closer now than anytime in my life.

 

[unckeyherb]

But in larger terms I think there is more nuance than you’re allowing. And I do not think it’s a good idea for Israel to invade Gaza and start killing people indiscriminately. I believe that will make things far worse. It’s not only a question of whether the people of Gaza deserve it, it’s also a question of whether such actions benefit Israel. I don’t think they do.

I don't disagree with you at all here.

I'm not saying it will be a net positive, but I'm saying it is what they WILL do. Israel is going to walk through Gaza via tanks & drones or even boots and make sure no sign of Hamas exists in that area again and they aren't going to willingly leave for a long time, if ever.

Most of the leaders of Hamas and many of their soldiers aren’t in Gaza. This was something planned for a long time.

Mossad will be on the job until it is done.

Don’t doubt it, but I think my point is they won’t be finding many hamas leaders in Gaza - they need to cut the head off the snake first and I don’t believe they can accomplish that by starting a ground war in Gaza.

Gather intelligence and find the big targets wherever they are hiding and don’t ask permission from the leaders of the countries they are hiding in.

Already being planned.

Zero doubt - Mossad is very deliberate.

I am just wondering when the shelling of Gaza is going to end - it’s a tight rope Israel is walking. They have shown the force in which they can respond, now what is the end game there? Continued destruction which no doubt will include significant innocent casualties?

Have to think much of the hamas force is retreating as part of their next phase.

I keep trying to find the answer. What did Hama gain by this attack? As Israel can respond tenfold and wreck more havoc on the other side than Hamas ever could. Right now their own people will suffer more and more than they ever have because of their terror attack.

They want Israel to drop the hammer and make their people suffer. They hope that Israelis over-do it and shock the rest of the Arab world into joining the fight against Israel.

 

[culdeus]

I am sitting here in North America and I wouldn’t presume to interpret any countries response to potential refugees, mainly because I have never lived in a country that had to deal with 10,000s of them (or more).

I suspect it is not something a lot of countries want to jump to volunteer for just because they share the same faith.

If you're in America, your country takes in tens of thousands of refugees each year. That's part of the reason why I'm so willing to foist the Palestinians on Egypt and other Arab nations. The US and Europe have done their part in accepting refugees. Time for Arabs to step up.

What is a number that is unrealistic for Egypt to take? Not trying to be confrontational. Curious? 100k 500k. 2M?

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Have a family friend who's wife has been in Israel for over a week. He has been communicating with her, and trying to make arrangements but communication wasn't easy, and last we heard she was at a hotel, maybe in Jerusalem, but they were wary about sending details.
She's also 82 years old, and was a flighty little bird 20 years ago, she's not built for this.

Just heard she is scheduled on a flight, and will be in Boston tomorrow. Big sigh from the family, this couple is pretty much family.

When my mother said they were wary of sending details, I thought overkill.

My mum has been texting our friend, and mum just received a call with an Iran prefix. She sent a screen shot. I am shocked right now.

She did not answer the call

not 100% sure what this means, but really hope she is able get out and back to the states.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm just going to delete the last few posts. This thread is going to be better if we stick to the news coming out of Israel and ignore the side stuff.

 

[the moops]

I'm just going to delete the last few posts. This thread is going to be better if we stick to the news coming out of Israel and ignore the side stuff.

Did the same

 

[TLEF316]

My cousin's wife and daughter got out this morning. They were in a bomb shelter since Sunday and managed to get onto a last minute flight to Cyprus. (Where my cousin is). Apparently it was a total madhouse

 

[Snotbubbles]

This too: "You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising."

Who is responsible for this?

It sure as heck isn't all Israel's fault.

Iran, Hamas, the Palestinians themselves have built their world in Gaza with one goal in mind, to go after Israel.

They made their bed and are going to lie in it. This was intentional. Millions of dollars spent on Rockets and guns instead of infrastructure. Training soldiers instead of farmers. They did this to themselves specifically so they could try and get the world to sympathize and many are falling for it.

Equally as ridiculous is conflating the land grab in the West Bank with Gaza.

Israel doesn't care to settle Gaza and has zero settlements there so why is it being used to "justify" Hamas?

Nothing in the quote says anything that you are attempting to make it say.

If you think Israel has clean hands in this, then there really isn't anything further to discuss. It will just be circular arguments.

Yet your post says it all, you think Hamas has "reasons".

I mean just say it @Snotbubbles
This attack was justified in your eyes.

You and several others are in here using whataboutism, saying Israel is doing "ethnic cleansing", etc all DAYS after a horrific terrorist attack.

I'm done here. Anti-Semites gonna anti-Semite I guess

Joe, mods, whoever can just ban me because I'm not playing nice with the likes of these guys. If you think the Jews are to blame for any of this, you are willfully ignorant or just plain stupid.

Scratches head.

My grandmother came to America during the Holocaust with her father fleeing Nazi Germany. My grandmother's mother stayed behind to look after her sick mother. She never heard from either of them again. As far as she knows, they were killed in concentration camps. My family is Jewish.

I've already said that the attacks by Hamas went well beyond what I would consider to be an acceptable retaliation. But I also recognize that Israel doesn't have clean hands in this situation either.

 

[Jayrod]

This too: "You cannot keep two million people living in the conditions people in Gaza are living in and expect peace. You can't. And you shouldn’t. Their environment is antithetical to the human condition. Violent rebellion is guaranteed. Guaranteed. As sure as the sun rising."

Who is responsible for this?

It sure as heck isn't all Israel's fault.

Iran, Hamas, the Palestinians themselves have built their world in Gaza with one goal in mind, to go after Israel.

They made their bed and are going to lie in it. This was intentional. Millions of dollars spent on Rockets and guns instead of infrastructure. Training soldiers instead of farmers. They did this to themselves specifically so they could try and get the world to sympathize and many are falling for it.

Equally as ridiculous is conflating the land grab in the West Bank with Gaza.

Israel doesn't care to settle Gaza and has zero settlements there so why is it being used to "justify" Hamas?

Nothing in the quote says anything that you are attempting to make it say.

If you think Israel has clean hands in this, then there really isn't anything further to discuss. It will just be circular arguments.

Yet your post says it all, you think Hamas has "reasons".

I mean just say it @Snotbubbles
This attack was justified in your eyes.

You and several others are in here using whataboutism, saying Israel is doing "ethnic cleansing", etc all DAYS after a horrific terrorist attack.

I'm done here. Anti-Semites gonna anti-Semite I guess

Joe, mods, whoever can just ban me because I'm not playing nice with the likes of these guys. If you think the Jews are to blame for any of this, you are willfully ignorant or just plain stupid.

Scratches head.

My grandmother came to America during the Holocaust with her father fleeing Nazi Germany. My grandmother's mother stayed behind to look after her sick mother. She never heard from either of them again. As far as she knows, they were killed in concentration camps. My family is Jewish.

I've already said that the attacks by Hamas went well beyond what I would consider to be an acceptable retaliation. But I also recognize that Israel doesn't have clean hands in this situation either.

Sorry, I was out of line there.

There was a cumulative effect from a few others that I unloaded on you. Not OK.

 

[timschochet]

My dad was a Holocaust survivor- all growing up if anyone on TV was the least bit critical of Israel they hated Jews. That was the way it was in my family. Anyone remember Vanessa Redgrave at the Academy Awards? OMG was my dad furious.

When I was growing up the real Israel, whatever that was, did not exist. What I and hundreds of other Jewish kids were given instead was the Israel of Leon Uris’ Exodus, a romanticized tale of good vs evil. A big part of me still thinks this way and for years I’ve had trouble with criticism of Israel, where I’ve never been.

 

[belljr]

This is just an observation...... just surprised at the number of Jewish members on this board. Feels like a large percentage

 

[The Commish]

No one is supporting the acts that Hamas did to civilians. But you and a few others are lumping Hamas with all of the people in Gaza.

How many times do we have to see "eliminate X and the problem is solved" only to see that it's really "eliminate X and create a vacuum for the next group to step in and carry on the cause"? I am 49 years old and this has been the pattern, consistently in the ME for my ENTIRE life

These two statements are one of the biggest challenges here honestly. The original hatred between Palestine and Israel came from the Zionist movement and the creation of Israel - which in many cases displaced Palestinians against their free will. We're at a point where honestly, very few (if any) people in Hamas were ACTUALLY displaced in the original creation of Israel (they're not old enough). So the hatred from the current Hamas stems from the oppression they've felt living in the West Bank/Gaza, NOT from personal displacement from their homes. Now...the current Non-Hamas Palestinians unfortunately have new fuel for hatred of Jewish Israel driven by the bombing of their homes...It's cyclical, and I think very common within terroristic groups. As I said earlier, Hamas ≠ Gaza...but Hamas is IN Gaza. Attacking Hamas has civilian non-Hamas casualties. These civilians harbor resentment that leads to future attacks.

One could say "If Palestinians wanted to stop the suffering, they'd boot Hamas out of Gaza and negotiate for peace," but that's not easy...potentially just not possible. As The Commish said - you eliminate one group, and another takes its place.

I completely disagree that the hatred stems from current treatment. There is no way that Arabs all across the Middle East hate Israel and want to kill them all just because the Gaza strip has issues. Just no way. There is so much more to hatred of Israel and it started before 1947. In the 1930s kids were throwing rocks at Jews and adults were making them walk barefoot.

That hatred is deep and evil and is taught to their children and has been for longer than you or I or Israel have been around.

I'm trying to understand how what you said is different than what he said. Reading both his comment and your response, it sounds like you guys are saying the same thing. FN's point is a good one that the current day group that is Hamas wasn't around (for the most part) for the origins of this battle, but they are living in the current battle. The gap between the two is likely filled with teaching and other experiences from elders within the religion or even within the family. That sort of thing has kept the fire burning/smoldering all this time. My view is that current treatment is validation for all the things they've been taught as they grew/grow up. That's within the group of Palestinians that see things more in line with Hamas. Now, throw on top of that all the Palestinians who haven't been taught all that historical stuff (right or wrong). Israel isn't making a distinction in events like this. That's virtually impossible. But for those who haven't been taught that history who are living among all those more sympathetic to Hamas, they are absolutely thinking "WTF Israel....what's you're deal? Can't we all just get along?!?!?!" So again...it's a mix of people. That's probably the most complex part of the whole thing.

Pretty obvious differences. He is saying the current people are fighting because of the current situation.

So the hatred from the current Hamas stems from the oppression they've felt living in the West Bank/Gaza, NOT from personal displacement from their homes.

I am saying they hate the Jews anyway. That hatred of Jews predates the current struggle and the 1947 struggles.

This is obvious because plenty of other places hate the Jews but won't take in Palestinians. So obviously their hatred of Jews has nothing to do with treatment of Palestinians.

I don't think that's what he's saying. But lets assume it is. For some bold, yes. For others, this current fight is the first meaningful validation of things they were taught would happen to them decades ago. There's also a group that had heard of attrocities and never seen them, then this happened and they are now all in on the hate. And then there's ANOTHER group that's like "WTF is going on?!?!?!?!". This isn't either/or. You're both correct.

 

[Orange&Blue]

I have family in Israel. Hamas knew what they were doing. The government is in flux, it’s a holiday this week with Sukodt…..Israel will strike back with a vengeance and it won’t end well.

This is now a war….not a skirmish.

Terrible.

Todem, can you share what is happening over in Israel from anyone there on the ground?

I have read 1,000+ people killed in Israel and they are still pulling bodies out
I have also seen some big explosions and the lie in the Gaza strip,
I would imagine the photos and video from those locations is going to be full of injured people and hard to watch for some

What happens if Israel does lower the boom and perhaps another countries unite against them? I've heard no countries want to take the Palestinians in across their borders
Humanitarian Crisis, those two words are going to start appearing all over the TVs

My cousins have told me they have secured their borders again and are surgically striking them. Over 1000 dead in Israel and rising as they find more bodies.

They live in a town called Kadima Tzoran which is 60 miles north of Gaza.

This is a war. Hamas went all in by carrying out this premeditated terror attack.Their hope to get a massive, devastating response in the hope the world will turn against Israel. So basically they are willing to sacrifice all their people to see Israel be potentially annihilated but the rest of the muslim world.

They are simply sick in the head.

Israel knows this. They will be surgical for the most part. The mission is to eliminate and destroy Hamas’s capabilities. Basically set them back a decade hopefully. Gaza will never be the same again.

2 state solution? Forget it.

The fact neighboring countries are hard closing their borders......should tell you something. They want nothing to do with the Palestinians.

It’s a really horrible tragedy for Israel......and soon it will be for the 100’s of thousands of innocent Palestinians who allowed Hamas to be their leaders. As another poster pointed out.

You reap what you sow.

If hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians are killed, that’s not surgical.

I don’t pretend to have the answers to this problem, but escalating violence isn’t the right path.

I've known Tommy for a long time on here, pretty authentic whether you agree or disagree.
There were several I highlighted on Page 1 that immediately were concerned about a humanitarian crisis which is real and I believe that is what you are concerned about

Rather than ask if you have any compassion towards the Israelis who were murdered, I would prefer to praise you for thinking about others that nobody is going to say a lot about right now. I watched entire buildings razed today in Gaza, it's disturbing to watch but so was this past Saturday and the last 2-3 days thru social media and the like,

10 years ago I might have wanted to try and punch at you thru the screen, now I want to sit down and pour us a drink, see what we can find common ground on.
The problem TG, these folks don't think like you and I do, you value human life, I know you do. Some of these folks don't including Hamas which has endangered 2Million people right now

But I know you feel bad for the people trapped in Gaza right now, and Hamas is likely counting on it because again I don't understand how you wage war on a nuclear armed country with so much more at their disposal, laser guided missiles, war planes armed to the tooth, well trained ground assault ready to roll as we speak...there is no way they could think they would defeat the Israeli Army, they want Israel to make a big military display in the coming days, for some reason it benefits Hamas

Glad to see you TG

Good to see you as well MOP. Hope you and the Mrs are well.

Full disclosure, my wife is Jewish, and her family tree more closely resembles a weed due to the Holocaust. I’m biased toward Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization and are responsible for their actions on Saturday.

But this is obviously bigger than Saturday, and eye-for-an-eye responses have gone on for far too long. At some point restraint has to be the way forward. Would I be able to walk that walk if it were my kids who had been brutally murdered? Probably not, but we need that kind of leadership.

And as James Baldwin said: “If I am starving, you are not safe.” Thats no excuse for Hamas, but it’s true.

Except the Palestinians weren't starving, not even close. It wasn't as comfortable as the majority of 1st world countries, but it's wasn’t as bad as Aden or Damascus either. They don't have one of the fastest population growth rates in the world if they were starving.

That's all changing now, and food and necessities are going to be scarce for their near future...so they may be able to play the "starving" card soon enough, but it was not the case prior to this week.

Gaza is an extremely poor, impoverished place with food shortages and lack of access to clean water. And it’s adjacent to one of the richest countries on earth.

I’m not making excuses for Hamas’ savagery. Just pointing out that those conditions are ripe for violence. When people have nothing to lose bad **** happens.

Right. Egypt is a top 20 nation in terms of wealth and shares Palestinian culture, religion, ethnicity, etc. they could absorb them into their country with relative ease. As someone said before, if the Palestinians are in an open air prison, one of the walls is controlled by their own people.

ETA-Egypt not SA

I've been to Egypt several times. they might be top 20, I'd like a link, but it's 2nd/3rd world for the majority of their population/areas.

 

[Orange&Blue]

I have family in Israel. Hamas knew what they were doing. The government is in flux, it’s a holiday this week with Sukodt…..Israel will strike back with a vengeance and it won’t end well.

This is now a war….not a skirmish.

Terrible.

Todem, can you share what is happening over in Israel from anyone there on the ground?

I have read 1,000+ people killed in Israel and they are still pulling bodies out
I have also seen some big explosions and the lie in the Gaza strip,
I would imagine the photos and video from those locations is going to be full of injured people and hard to watch for some

What happens if Israel does lower the boom and perhaps another countries unite against them? I've heard no countries want to take the Palestinians in across their borders
Humanitarian Crisis, those two words are going to start appearing all over the TVs

My cousins have told me they have secured their borders again and are surgically striking them. Over 1000 dead in Israel and rising as they find more bodies.

They live in a town called Kadima Tzoran which is 60 miles north of Gaza.

This is a war. Hamas went all in by carrying out this premeditated terror attack.Their hope to get a massive, devastating response in the hope the world will turn against Israel. So basically they are willing to sacrifice all their people to see Israel be potentially annihilated but the rest of the muslim world.

They are simply sick in the head.

Israel knows this. They will be surgical for the most part. The mission is to eliminate and destroy Hamas’s capabilities. Basically set them back a decade hopefully. Gaza will never be the same again.

2 state solution? Forget it.

The fact neighboring countries are hard closing their borders......should tell you something. They want nothing to do with the Palestinians.

It’s a really horrible tragedy for Israel......and soon it will be for the 100’s of thousands of innocent Palestinians who allowed Hamas to be their leaders. As another poster pointed out.

You reap what you sow.

If hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians are killed, that’s not surgical.

I don’t pretend to have the answers to this problem, but escalating violence isn’t the right path.

I've known Tommy for a long time on here, pretty authentic whether you agree or disagree.
There were several I highlighted on Page 1 that immediately were concerned about a humanitarian crisis which is real and I believe that is what you are concerned about

Rather than ask if you have any compassion towards the Israelis who were murdered, I would prefer to praise you for thinking about others that nobody is going to say a lot about right now. I watched entire buildings razed today in Gaza, it's disturbing to watch but so was this past Saturday and the last 2-3 days thru social media and the like,

10 years ago I might have wanted to try and punch at you thru the screen, now I want to sit down and pour us a drink, see what we can find common ground on.
The problem TG, these folks don't think like you and I do, you value human life, I know you do. Some of these folks don't including Hamas which has endangered 2Million people right now

But I know you feel bad for the people trapped in Gaza right now, and Hamas is likely counting on it because again I don't understand how you wage war on a nuclear armed country with so much more at their disposal, laser guided missiles, war planes armed to the tooth, well trained ground assault ready to roll as we speak...there is no way they could think they would defeat the Israeli Army, they want Israel to make a big military display in the coming days, for some reason it benefits Hamas

Glad to see you TG

Good to see you as well MOP. Hope you and the Mrs are well.

Full disclosure, my wife is Jewish, and her family tree more closely resembles a weed due to the Holocaust. I’m biased toward Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization and are responsible for their actions on Saturday.

But this is obviously bigger than Saturday, and eye-for-an-eye responses have gone on for far too long. At some point restraint has to be the way forward. Would I be able to walk that walk if it were my kids who had been brutally murdered? Probably not, but we need that kind of leadership.

And as James Baldwin said: “If I am starving, you are not safe.” Thats no excuse for Hamas, but it’s true.

Except the Palestinians weren't starving, not even close. It wasn't as comfortable as the majority of 1st world countries, but it's wasn’t as bad as Aden or Damascus either. They don't have one of the fastest population growth rates in the world if they were starving.

That's all changing now, and food and necessities are going to be scarce for their near future...so they may be able to play the "starving" card soon enough, but it was not the case prior to this week.

Gaza is an extremely poor, impoverished place with food shortages and lack of access to clean water. And it’s adjacent to one of the richest countries on earth.

I’m not making excuses for Hamas’ savagery. Just pointing out that those conditions are ripe for violence. When people have nothing to lose bad **** happens.

Right. Saudi Arabia is a top 20 nation in terms of wealth and shares Palestinian culture, religion, ethnicity, etc. they could absorb them into their country with relative ease. As someone said before, if the Palestinians are in an open air prison, one of the walls is controlled by their own people.

Quick correction (sorry): Gaza actually borders Egypt, not Saudi Arabia.

But yeah your point is still correct of course. Egypt could absorb the inhabitants of Gaza much more easily than Israel can, especially now. It would not surprise me if that's what ends up happening when this is all over. (That's one of several possible outcomes -- not saying it's the most likely, just that it's one foreseeable possibility).

Egypt will not accept them without $$$. they are still in the wake of dealing with the muslim brotherhood.

 

[parasaurolophus]

don't think that's what he's saying. But lets assume it is. For some bold, yes. For others, this current fight is the first meaningful validation of things they were taught would happen to them decades ago. There's also a group that had heard of attrocities and never seen them, then this happened and they are now all in on the hate. And then there's ANOTHER group that's like "WTF is going on?!?!?!?!". This isn't either/or. You're both correct.

It's literally a copy and paste from his post. I didn't put words in his mouth.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

Regarding the why now, sort of interesting theories that maybe there wasn’t a real reason and terrorists are going to terrorize and maybe this was just a catastrophic success for Hamas: https://apple.news/ANW4d61SOT5WRa7kTOaRO9g

American spy agencies claim they have intelligence that Iran was surprised by this. Now certainly whatever Hamas does is generally connected to or approved by Iran, but maybe Hamas did not expect things to go quite this way.

 

[massraider]

Regarding the why now, sort of interesting theories that maybe there wasn’t a real reason

Yah, maybe they were just ready to attack now.

 

[The Commish]

don't think that's what he's saying. But lets assume it is. For some bold, yes. For others, this current fight is the first meaningful validation of things they were taught would happen to them decades ago. There's also a group that had heard of attrocities and never seen them, then this happened and they are now all in on the hate. And then there's ANOTHER group that's like "WTF is going on?!?!?!?!". This isn't either/or. You're both correct.

It's literally a copy and paste from his post. I didn't put words in his mouth.

I didn't say you did. He made distinctions in his post that you aren't acknowledging and I think those differences are important. There isn't one broad brush application. As I said before, this isn't either/or. You're both correct.

 

[foxco]

My buddy at work's son got called and is now in Israel apparently heading to near the Lebanon border to fight Hezbollah if needed (he married an Israeli so his son served and despite living in Queens I guess he had to go?). Don't think I'll ever forget the look on his face as he told me. Wouldn't wish this on any parent.

 

[SoBeDad]

The perspective of Ayman Mohyeldin interviewed on MSNBC was informative. He lived as a reporter in Gaza during the 2008 War. During that ground incursion Gaza was divided into north and south by Israeli tanks and armored vehicles. But they didn't enter much into the urban centers. This time it could be different. He said the history of Hamas is that it has come back stronger after each war, even though leaders, financiers, bomb makers, etc are killed. It's an ideology. The Egyptians are reluctant to accept refugees as they may never be able to return to their homes in Gaza, so they could be permanent. He mentioned a possible multi-country solution to refugees, I'm not sure what that means. Many in Gaza are descendants of those who left their homes in 1948 and were never able to return, so some are reluctant to leave Gaza and lose their homes again. No easy solution.

​

 

[parasaurolophus]

22 americans

 

[timschochet]

22 americans

And maybe up to 17 hostages. At least, there are 17 Americans still unaccounted for and we suspect, but don’t know, that SOME are being held hostage along with about 150 Israelis.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I'm just going to delete the last few posts. This thread is going to be better if we stick to the news coming out of Israel and ignore the side stuff.

I'm just going to delete the last few posts. This thread is going to be better if we stick to the news coming out of Israel and ignore the side stuff.

Did the same

-I have no idea what the two of you wrote
but props for being able to realize it wasn't going to further the discussion or it was going to pull you into a back and forth you would prefer to avoid.
We need more of that around here

 

[Ministry of Pain]

22 americans

We have domestic terrorists that most of the time cannot get the number as high as this (thankfully)...and we're just talking about the Americans visiting Israel
2 people I play Tennis with have visited Israel in the last month, it's not uncommon at all to see Americans visiting Israel, not just those of Jewish faith.
22 Americans murdered as a result of the Hamas attack, I'm kind of shocked there isn't more outrage here in America.

-I clearly heard the POTUS say "Silence is Complicit"
-I remember Desert Shield in '91-'92 I was right at about my Senior Year of high school when I woke up one morning and saw what we had done under Bush
He didn't ask anyone's permission, he gave an order and it was carried out.

I would love to see something done unannounced that catches everyone off guard and I think for a brief moment the POTUS almost spilled the beans
But he was very careful in not saying what his exact plans were and he certainly wasn't about to announce them to anyone. That's the way he framed it.
I hope he borrows a page from the Gulf War and I wold like to see the Iranian Nuke Plants destroyed, the fact they have gotten this far with the plans is scary to me.
I keep hearing "Iranian Backed" and since they are mentioned with these groups all the time...a strong message needs to be sent.

I don't mean to be so violent with my words but I'm asking for the United States to find some military targets that will either cripple or severely hurt those who back these groups.
I still am concerned and worried what the video and pics will look like after Israel enters Gaza with intentions to stay and occupy for a while.

 

[Sand]

From my understanding...I was told by a family member they think Egypt is now negotiating with Israel to take in innocent Palestinians before any ground invasion begins.

I remain skeptical. Let's face it, Hamas values a dead child on the front page of a newspaper way, way more than an alive child in another country.

Response from Egypt - categorically no refugees will be allowed. They're bolstering the Gaza border.

Egypt keeps calling for the right of return, knowing that this is completely untenable (giving more numerous Palestinians full voting rights is suicide). This gives them an easy out from having to do anything.

So far no offers from any Arab nation to take in refugees. Shocking.

Egypt discusses Gaza aid, rejects corridors for civilians, say sources

Egypt has discussed plans with the United States and others to provide humanitarian aid through its border with Gaza Strip but rejects any move to set up safe corridors for refugees fleeing the enclave, Egyptian security sources said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Ministry of Pain]

This post is just going to have links to stories, I'm not agreeing/disagreeing,
Sometimes it's the tone or certain adjectives used to describe things.

Maps and satellite images reveal Gaza devastation as Israel retaliates for Hamas attack

The Gaza Strip has been pounded by relentless airstrikes since Hamas militants launched a full-scale assault on southern Israel.

www.cbsnews.com

@BassNBrew asked that I take this 2nd link down, MoP is honoring that request

 

[Todem]

From my understanding...I was told by a family member they think Egypt is now negotiating with Israel to take in innocent Palestinians before any ground invasion begins.

I remain skeptical. Let's face it, Hamas values a dead child on the front page of a newspaper way, way more than an alive child in another country.

Response from Egypt - categorically no refugees will be allowed. They're bolstering the Gaza border.

Egypt keeps calling for the right of return, knowing that this is completely untenable (giving more numerous Palestinians full voting rights is suicide). This gives them an easy out from having to do anything.

So far no offers from any Arab nation to take in refugees. Shocking.

Egypt discusses Gaza aid, rejects corridors for civilians, say sources

Egypt has discussed plans with the United States and others to provide humanitarian aid through its border with Gaza Strip but rejects any move to set up safe corridors for refugees fleeing the enclave, Egyptian security sources said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

Typical.

 

[Beef Ravioli Part 2]

I thought this thread may have been locked. I guess not .

 

[Jayrod]

I thought this thread may have been locked. I guess not .

Joe has been generous. I did my best (worst?) to get it locked yesterday.

I think they realize the complexity and emotional nature of it and are giving a little more latitude since it is a highly important situation worldwide.

 

[The Duff Man]

At times it is easy to be mad at the world for the situation I was born into and adversity I had to face.

But there is a close to zero chance that me or my family will ever face the horrors that civilians on both sides of this conflict face and for that I am filled with gratitude.

 

[SoBeDad]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Everybody always says this, but is anyone worried about the next generation of al Qaeda or ISIS leaders? You can do a lot of damage to groups like this if you're serious about it.

 

[The Z Machine]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

The only way that this doesn't generate more terrorists is if Israel gets Egypt and/or other ME countries to take the Gazan refugees.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

The only way that this doesn't generate more terrorists is if Israel gets Egypt and/or other ME countries to take the Gazan refugees.

There will be new terrorists no matter what. Just a question of whether or not they will be as equipped, have as strategic positions, tunnels, etc.

Israel should have been making sure all the money given to Palestinians was being spent properly. They won't make that mistake again.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Gideon Levy made the point in his opinion piece in Haaretz earlier this week. If Levy weren’t an award-winning established Israeli journalist writing in Israel’s oldest and best known newspaper, he’d surely be vilified an a vile antisemite for expressing his long held beliefs.

https://archive.ph/2023.10.12-04450...el-price/0000018b-1476-d465-abbb-14f6262a0000

A few hundred armed Palestinians breached the barrier and invaded Israel in a way no Israeli imagined was possible. A few hundred people proved that it’s impossible to imprison 2 million people forever without paying a cruel price
Just as the smoky old Palestinian bulldozer tore through the world’s smartest barrier Saturday, it tore away at Israel’s arrogance and complacency. And that’s also how it tore away at the idea that it’s enough to occasionally attack Gaza with suicide drones – and sell them to half the world – to maintain security.

On Saturday, Israel saw pictures it has never seen before. Palestinian vehicles patrolling its cities, bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear away at that arrogance. The Gaza Palestinians have decided they’re willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. Is there any hope in that? No. Will Israel learn its lesson? No.

On Saturday they were already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about occupying the Strip and punishing Gaza “as it has never been punished before.” But Israel hasn’t stopped punishing Gaza since 1948, not for a moment.

After 75 years of abuse, the worse possible scenario awaits it once again. The threats of “flattening Gaza” prove only one thing: We haven’t learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay, even though Israel is paying a high price once again.


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu bears very great responsibility for what happened, and he must pay the price, but it didn’t start with him and it won’t end after he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza.

Gaza, most of whose residents are refugees created by Israel. Gaza, which has never known a single day of freedom.

 

[The Z Machine]

Israel should have been making sure all the money given to Palestinians was being spent properly. They won't make that mistake again.

Pretty paternalistic and also generates more animosity.

Having 2 separate Palestinian zones is just dumb. Maybe a humanitarian/refugee corridor for all Gazans to go to the West Bank?

 

[Jayrod]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Gideon Levy made the point in his opinion piece in Haaretz earlier this week. If Levy weren’t an award-winning established Israeli journalist writing in Israel’s oldest and best known newspaper, he’d surely be vilified an a vile antisemite for expressing his long held beliefs.

https://archive.ph/2023.10.12-04450...el-price/0000018b-1476-d465-abbb-14f6262a0000

A few hundred armed Palestinians breached the barrier and invaded Israel in a way no Israeli imagined was possible. A few hundred people proved that it’s impossible to imprison 2 million people forever without paying a cruel price
Just as the smoky old Palestinian bulldozer tore through the world’s smartest barrier Saturday, it tore away at Israel’s arrogance and complacency. And that’s also how it tore away at the idea that it’s enough to occasionally attack Gaza with suicide drones – and sell them to half the world – to maintain security.

On Saturday, Israel saw pictures it has never seen before. Palestinian vehicles patrolling its cities, bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear away at that arrogance. The Gaza Palestinians have decided they’re willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. Is there any hope in that? No. Will Israel learn its lesson? No.

On Saturday they were already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about occupying the Strip and punishing Gaza “as it has never been punished before.” But Israel hasn’t stopped punishing Gaza since 1948, not for a moment.

After 75 years of abuse, the worse possible scenario awaits it once again. The threats of “flattening Gaza” prove only one thing: We haven’t learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay, even though Israel is paying a high price once again.


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu bears very great responsibility for what happened, and he must pay the price, but it didn’t start with him and it won’t end after he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza.

Gaza, most of whose residents are refugees created by Israel. Gaza, which has never known a single day of freedom.

I think that is kind of the point. It is OK for someone inside to criticize their country and their people. Someone outside of Israel has less standing to tell them how to feel or what to believe.

 

[tri-man 47]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Gideon Levy made the point in his opinion piece in Haaretz earlier this week. If Levy weren’t an award-winning established Israeli journalist writing in Israel’s oldest and best known newspaper, he’d surely be vilified an a vile antisemite for expressing his long held beliefs.

https://archive.ph/2023.10.12-04450...el-price/0000018b-1476-d465-abbb-14f6262a0000

A few hundred armed Palestinians breached the barrier and invaded Israel in a way no Israeli imagined was possible. A few hundred people proved that it’s impossible to imprison 2 million people forever without paying a cruel price
Just as the smoky old Palestinian bulldozer tore through the world’s smartest barrier Saturday, it tore away at Israel’s arrogance and complacency. And that’s also how it tore away at the idea that it’s enough to occasionally attack Gaza with suicide drones – and sell them to half the world – to maintain security.

On Saturday, Israel saw pictures it has never seen before. Palestinian vehicles patrolling its cities, bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear away at that arrogance. The Gaza Palestinians have decided they’re willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. Is there any hope in that? No. Will Israel learn its lesson? No.

On Saturday they were already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about occupying the Strip and punishing Gaza “as it has never been punished before.” But Israel hasn’t stopped punishing Gaza since 1948, not for a moment.

After 75 years of abuse, the worse possible scenario awaits it once again. The threats of “flattening Gaza” prove only one thing: We haven’t learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay, even though Israel is paying a high price once again.


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu bears very great responsibility for what happened, and he must pay the price, but it didn’t start with him and it won’t end after he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza.

Gaza, most of whose residents are refugees created by Israel. Gaza, which has never known a single day of freedom.

Oof …that’s blunt. But he’s not wrong, is he?

 

[CletiusMaximus]

Israel has to go into Gaza to try and destroy Hamas. It's hard to see how this will not lead to the next generation of Hamas leaders.

Gideon Levy made the point in his opinion piece in Haaretz earlier this week. If Levy weren’t an award-winning established Israeli journalist writing in Israel’s oldest and best known newspaper, he’d surely be vilified an a vile antisemite for expressing his long held beliefs.

https://archive.ph/2023.10.12-04450...el-price/0000018b-1476-d465-abbb-14f6262a0000

A few hundred armed Palestinians breached the barrier and invaded Israel in a way no Israeli imagined was possible. A few hundred people proved that it’s impossible to imprison 2 million people forever without paying a cruel price
Just as the smoky old Palestinian bulldozer tore through the world’s smartest barrier Saturday, it tore away at Israel’s arrogance and complacency. And that’s also how it tore away at the idea that it’s enough to occasionally attack Gaza with suicide drones – and sell them to half the world – to maintain security.

On Saturday, Israel saw pictures it has never seen before. Palestinian vehicles patrolling its cities, bike riders entering through the Gaza gates. These pictures tear away at that arrogance. The Gaza Palestinians have decided they’re willing to pay any price for a moment of freedom. Is there any hope in that? No. Will Israel learn its lesson? No.

On Saturday they were already talking about wiping out entire neighborhoods in Gaza, about occupying the Strip and punishing Gaza “as it has never been punished before.” But Israel hasn’t stopped punishing Gaza since 1948, not for a moment.

After 75 years of abuse, the worse possible scenario awaits it once again. The threats of “flattening Gaza” prove only one thing: We haven’t learned a thing. The arrogance is here to stay, even though Israel is paying a high price once again.


Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu bears very great responsibility for what happened, and he must pay the price, but it didn’t start with him and it won’t end after he goes. We now have to cry bitterly for the Israeli victims, but we should also cry for Gaza.

Gaza, most of whose residents are refugees created by Israel. Gaza, which has never known a single day of freedom.

I think that is kind of the point. It is OK for someone inside to criticize their country and their people. Someone outside of Israel has less standing to tell them how to feel or what to believe.

Agreed. I posted on this board 20 years ago and still believe that Israel shows far more restraint and wisdom in this conflict than many Americans who purport to advocate for Israel but live safely on the other side of the globe while calling for nukes and genocide and creation of parking lots and such.