What does the confederate flag mean to you? (2 Viewers)

[Henry Ford]

Hum yeah Henry about that avatar if yours, been doing a little research and as it turns out.... you *do* associate yourself with all aspects of that symbol you post under, don't you?

Saints:

I view Henry Ford as an innovative but deeply flawed man who was absolutely a racist living in a racist society, privileged in ways that he didn't even understand as a white man living in that time.

Yeah, I absolutely associate myself with all aspects of that, and hope regularly to be able to become a better person than that. And while I put Henry Ford as my board name, in an effort to remind myself to try not to be a narcissistic, privileged ###hole when I respond to people, I don't think I'd lose any sleep over his name being removed from a dinner.

 

[Mjolnirs]

it means a lot to the guy driving this truck.

Heritage not....ah, screw it

No, in that case it is definitely hate.

I get that you and this toolbox are coming from very different places. But again, and this is just me, I'd eventually have to seriously consider distancing myself as much as possible from these monsters.

I understand and I do. I don't drive around with a flag flying from my car, and I don't drive around yelling racially charged things at people. I assure you, if the investigation in this case discovers this person is in the SCV, the SCV would kick him out. This is not a heritage display at all.

 

[In The Zone]

it means a lot to the guy driving this truck.

That is a Damn shame.

 

[timschochet]

The night they drove ol Dixie down

And all the bells were ringing

The night they drove ol Dixie down

And all the people were singing

They went

Nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

Nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

 

[cstu]

it means a lot to the guy driving this truck.

Heritage not....ah, screw it

No, in that case it is definitely hate.

I get that you and this toolbox are coming from very different places.But again, and this is just me, I'd eventually have to seriously consider distancing myself as much as possible from these monsters.

I understand and I do. I don't drive around with a flag flying from my car, and I don't drive around yelling racially charged things at people. I assure you, if the investigation in this case discovers this person is in the SCV, the SCV would kick him out.This is not a heritage display at all.

Do you guys have a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy?

 

[Apple Jack]

And 3 high schools in Fairfax County, Virginia..

Hard to believe it's taken so long. Long overdue.

 

[Rove!]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3176619/Black-child-s-birthday-party-interrupted-white-men-Confederate-flags-allegedly-said-kill-y-n-s-driving-fleet-pickup-trucks.html

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

Isn't hate part of the heritage?

 

[Apple Jack]

Isn't hate part of the heritage?

Sure, but let's reserve the school names for cool people. Give the #######s prisons or landfills maybe?

 

[TobiasFunke]

it means a lot to the guy driving this truck.

Heritage not....ah, screw it

No, in that case it is definitely hate.

I get that you and this toolbox are coming from very different places.But again, and this is just me, I'd eventually have to seriously consider distancing myself as much as possible from these monsters.

I understand and I do. I don't drive around with a flag flying from my car, and I don't drive around yelling racially charged things at people. I assure you, if the investigation in this case discovers this person is in the SCV, the SCV would kick him out.This is not a heritage display at all.

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

The night they drove ol Dixie down

And all the bells were ringing

The night they drove ol Dixie down

And all the people were singing

They went

Nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

Nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah

The night they took ol Dixie down

And all the bells were ringing

The night they took ol Dixie down

And all the people were singing

They went

Nahnahnah nahnahnah hey hey hey goodbye

(fixed)

 

[matttyl]

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

SCV is "Sons of....", there is also the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC).

Membership is "limited" to those with bloodlines (lineal or collateral) to someone who served. Not sure why that's odd.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

it means a lot to the guy driving this truck.

Heritage not....ah, screw it

No, in that case it is definitely hate.

Its hate. No qualifiers needed.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

SCV is "Sons of....", there is also the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC).

Membership is "limited" to those with bloodlines (lineal or collateral) to someone who served. Not sure why that's odd.

I didn't asked how it worked or say that it was odd. I asked why it was the case. It seems to have nothing to do with the stated mission to preserve and celebrate the heritage of the Confederacy. So what's the purpose for discriminating in this way? How does it further the goals of the organization? According to their website their purpose is:

preserving the history and legacy of these heroes, so future generations can understand the motives that animated the Southern Cause

Setting aside the fact that virtually everyone agrees that the motives that animated the Southern Cause was the preservation of slavery ... why can't women assist in this mission? Or people who care about the South's history and legacy who don't have a great-great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy? It seems to me that if you want to preserve history and legacy for future generations you'd want more members, not fewer.

The also say that their activities include:

Preservation work, marking Confederate soldier's graves, historical re-enactments, scholarly publications, and regular meetings to discuss the military and political history of the War Between the States are only a few of the activities sponsored by local units, called camps.

Isn't all of this done far better and far more easily if you involve more people? If there's a woman who is a great Civil War historian why would you willingly exclude her from participating in these activities?

 

[timschochet]

Actually, in terms of promoting the Lost Cause movement, the Daughters of the Confederacy has been much more influential than the Sons, at least from a historical perspective. My understanding is that the Daughters is a much more prestigious organization. Women always take this heritage stuff far more seriously.

 

[matttyl]

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

SCV is "Sons of....", there is also the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC).

Membership is "limited" to those with bloodlines (lineal or collateral) to someone who served. Not sure why that's odd.

I didn't asked how it worked or say that it was odd. I asked why it was the case. It seems to have nothing to do with the stated mission to preserve and celebrate the heritage of the Confederacy. So what's the purpose for discriminating in this way? How does it further the goals of the organization? According to their website their purpose is:

preserving the history and legacy of these heroes, so future generations can understand the motives that animated the Southern Cause

Setting aside the fact that virtually everyone agrees that the motives that animated the Southern Cause was the preservation of slavery ... why can't women assist in this mission? Or people who care about the South's history and legacy who don't have a great-great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy? It seems to me that if you want to preserve history and legacy for future generations you'd want more members, not fewer.

The also say that their activities include:

Preservation work, marking Confederate soldier's graves, historical re-enactments, scholarly publications, and regular meetings to discuss the military and political history of the War Between the States are only a few of the activities sponsored by local units, called camps.

Isn't all of this done far better and far more easily if you involve more people? If there's a woman who is a great Civil War historian why would you willingly exclude her from participating in these activities?

Anyone can join the Civil War Trust, which does the same thing, regardless of their family history. Same is true of the Blue and Gray Education Society, and anyone can donate money to the Confederate Heritage Trust if they'd like.

It's simply a "fraternal" organization like any other. There is a Sons of Union Veterans that's pretty much the same thing, for the Union side.

As to your last question, it's not like they would exclude a female from giving a presentation or being a tour guide at a battlefield or something similar. She wouldn't be excluded from those group activities, she just wouldn't be a member of the group itself. No different from a fraternity.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

SCV is "Sons of....", there is also the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC).

Membership is "limited" to those with bloodlines (lineal or collateral) to someone who served. Not sure why that's odd.

I didn't asked how it worked or say that it was odd. I asked why it was the case. It seems to have nothing to do with the stated mission to preserve and celebrate the heritage of the Confederacy. So what's the purpose for discriminating in this way? How does it further the goals of the organization? According to their website their purpose is:

preserving the history and legacy of these heroes, so future generations can understand the motives that animated the Southern Cause

Setting aside the fact that virtually everyone agrees that the motives that animated the Southern Cause was the preservation of slavery ... why can't women assist in this mission? Or people who care about the South's history and legacy who don't have a great-great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy? It seems to me that if you want to preserve history and legacy for future generations you'd want more members, not fewer.

The also say that their activities include:

Preservation work, marking Confederate soldier's graves, historical re-enactments, scholarly publications, and regular meetings to discuss the military and political history of the War Between the States are only a few of the activities sponsored by local units, called camps.

Isn't all of this done far better and far more easily if you involve more people? If there's a woman who is a great Civil War historian why would you willingly exclude her from participating in these activities?

Anyone can join the Civil War Trust, which does the same thing, regardless of their family history. Same is true of the Blue and Gray Education Society, and anyone can donate money to the Confederate Heritage Trust if they'd like.

It's simply a "fraternal" organization like any other. There is a Sons of Union Veterans that's pretty much the same thing, for the Union side.

As to your last question, it's not like they would exclude a female from giving a presentation or being a tour guide at a battlefield or something similar. She wouldn't be excluded from those group activities, she just wouldn't be a member of the group itself. No different from a fraternity.

Except that it's not a fraternal organization. It says nothing about fraternity (meaning companionship and brotherhood, not Collegiate fraternities) anywhere on its web site statement of what it's about or in its discussion of activities, as far as I can tell. It only says what I quoted above, missions and activities that would undoubtedly be enhanced by the participation of both women and people who can't trace their lineage to Confederate soldiers. If fraternity is the purpose, why not say that?

The fact that there's other organizations that do the same thing, or that people with similar interests who don't fit the CSV membership criteria can join other groups, is not an answer. I want to know why the CSV- this supposedly high-minded organization who we're toldwould immediately disavow anyone who uses the Confederate flag in conjuction with racist speech- is itself so exclusionary?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

SCV is "Sons of....", there is also the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC).

Membership is "limited" to those with bloodlines (lineal or collateral) to someone who served. Not sure why that's odd.

I didn't asked how it worked or say that it was odd. I asked why it was the case. It seems to have nothing to do with the stated mission to preserve and celebrate the heritage of the Confederacy. So what's the purpose for discriminating in this way? How does it further the goals of the organization? According to their website their purpose is:

preserving the history and legacy of these heroes, so future generations can understand the motives that animated the Southern Cause

Setting aside the fact that virtually everyone agrees that the motives that animated the Southern Cause was the preservation of slavery ... why can't women assist in this mission? Or people who care about the South's history and legacy who don't have a great-great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy? It seems to me that if you want to preserve history and legacy for future generations you'd want more members, not fewer.

The also say that their activities include:

Preservation work, marking Confederate soldier's graves, historical re-enactments, scholarly publications, and regular meetings to discuss the military and political history of the War Between the States are only a few of the activities sponsored by local units, called camps.

Isn't all of this done far better and far more easily if you involve more people? If there's a woman who is a great Civil War historian why would you willingly exclude her from participating in these activities?

Anyone can join the Civil War Trust, which does the same thing, regardless of their family history. Same is true of the Blue and Gray Education Society, and anyone can donate money to the Confederate Heritage Trust if they'd like.

It's simply a "fraternal" organization like any other. There is a Sons of Union Veterans that's pretty much the same thing, for the Union side.

As to your last question, it's not like they would exclude a female from giving a presentation or being a tour guide at a battlefield or something similar. She wouldn't be excluded from those group activities, she just wouldn't be a member of the group itself. No different from a fraternity.

Except that it's not a fraternal organization. It says nothing about fraternity (meaning companionship and brotherhood, not Collegiate fraternities) anywhere on its web site statement of what it's about or in its discussion of activities, as far as I can tell. It only says what I quoted above, missions and activities that would undoubtedly be enhanced by the participation of both women and people who can't trace their lineage to Confederate soldiers. If fraternity is the purpose, why not say that?

The fact that there's other organizations that do the same thing, or that people with similar interests who don't fit the CSV membership criteria can join other groups, is not an answer. I want to know why the CSV- this supposedly high-minded organization who we're toldwould immediately disavow anyone who uses the Confederate flag in conjuction with racist speech- is itself so exclusionary?

Exclusionary or exclusive? Perhaps they see it as a sure-fire way to vet the sincerity, dedication, and devotion of members. They are not preventing you from starting your own like-minded organization, and one with whom they might join or affiliate, they just happen to have a different criteria, as is their right.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

SCV is "Sons of....", there is also the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC).

Membership is "limited" to those with bloodlines (lineal or collateral) to someone who served. Not sure why that's odd.

I didn't asked how it worked or say that it was odd. I asked why it was the case. It seems to have nothing to do with the stated mission to preserve and celebrate the heritage of the Confederacy. So what's the purpose for discriminating in this way? How does it further the goals of the organization? According to their website their purpose is:

preserving the history and legacy of these heroes, so future generations can understand the motives that animated the Southern Cause

Setting aside the fact that virtually everyone agrees that the motives that animated the Southern Cause was the preservation of slavery ... why can't women assist in this mission? Or people who care about the South's history and legacy who don't have a great-great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy? It seems to me that if you want to preserve history and legacy for future generations you'd want more members, not fewer.

The also say that their activities include:

Preservation work, marking Confederate soldier's graves, historical re-enactments, scholarly publications, and regular meetings to discuss the military and political history of the War Between the States are only a few of the activities sponsored by local units, called camps.

Isn't all of this done far better and far more easily if you involve more people? If there's a woman who is a great Civil War historian why would you willingly exclude her from participating in these activities?

Oh come on, I can see objecting to the base root of the confederacy but do we have to kill everything traditional? We can't be Sons Of and Daughters Of? Good lord let them dress up in their quartermasters and Scarlett outfits and do their genealogy research in their own way.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Except that it's not a fraternal organization. It says nothing about fraternity (meaning companionship and brotherhood, not Collegiate fraternities) anywhere on its web site statement of what it's about or in its discussion of activities, as far as I can tell. It only says what I quoted above, missions and activities that would undoubtedly be enhanced by the participation of both women and people who can't trace their lineage to Confederate soldiers. If fraternity is the purpose, why not say that?

The fact that there's other organizations that do the same thing, or that people with similar interests who don't fit the CSV membership criteria can join other groups, is not an answer. I want to know why the CSV- this supposedly high-minded organization who we're toldwould immediately disavow anyone who uses the Confederate flag in conjuction with racist speech- is itself so exclusionary?

Exclusionary or exclusive? Perhaps they see it as a sure-fire way to vet the sincerity, dedication, and devotion of members. They are not preventing you from starting your own like-minded organization, and one with whom they might join or affiliate, they just happen to have a different criteria, as is their right.

Exclusionary.

And of course it's their right. I'm just wondering why they choose to exercise it. Certainly one's gender or bloodline is a poor method for evaluation of sincerity, dedication and devotion, yes? Discrimination based on gender or bloodline are both prohibited at places of employment by the Civil Rights Act. Why is it so important in this context to practice such discrimination? Certainly they can do so, as they are not subject to the Act. I'm just wondering why such a supposedly high-minded organization would make that choice.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Certainly one's gender or bloodline is a poor method for evaluation of sincerity, dedication and devotion, yes?

Tobias, is it ok if people just do stuff because they enjoy it? Maybe you don't get old-timey marching up and down the square and roll calls in woolen uniforms but some people do. It's D&D or GOT or LOTR or Battlecry - just let the people have their fun.

Hell we have women's and men's Mardi Gras krewes. It's ok.

 

[matttyl]

Except that it's not a fraternal organization.

Really? Doesn't the word "Sons" in the name of the group give it away? I would have thought that was obvious, but if you want "proof"...

Section 2.

Or from their main webpage...

The SCV is the direct heir of the United Confederate Veterans, and the oldest hereditary organization for male descendants (pretty much the definition of a fraternal organization, no?) of Confederate soldiers.

They come up on the list of Fraternal service organizations, as well.

I'm not sure what your hangup is here.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Except that it's not a fraternal organization. It says nothing about fraternity (meaning companionship and brotherhood, not Collegiate fraternities) anywhere on its web site statement of what it's about or in its discussion of activities, as far as I can tell. It only says what I quoted above, missions and activities that would undoubtedly be enhanced by the participation of both women and people who can't trace their lineage to Confederate soldiers. If fraternity is the purpose, why not say that?

The fact that there's other organizations that do the same thing, or that people with similar interests who don't fit the CSV membership criteria can join other groups, is not an answer. I want to know why the CSV- this supposedly high-minded organization who we're toldwould immediately disavow anyone who uses the Confederate flag in conjuction with racist speech- is itself so exclusionary?

Exclusionary or exclusive? Perhaps they see it as a sure-fire way to vet the sincerity, dedication, and devotion of members. They are not preventing you from starting your own like-minded organization, and one with whom they might join or affiliate, they just happen to have a different criteria, as is their right.

Exclusionary.

And of course it's their right. I'm just wondering why they choose to exercise it. Certainly one's gender or bloodline is a poor method for evaluation of sincerity, dedication and devotion, yes? Discrimination based on gender or bloodline are both prohibited at places of employment by the Civil Rights Act. Why is it so important in this context to practice such discrimination? Certainly they can do so, as they are not subject to the Act. I'm just wondering why such a supposedly high-minded organization would make that choice.

Because exclusivity makes members feel special. People value feelings. See for example: Mayflower Society

 

[TobiasFunke]

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

SCV is "Sons of....", there is also the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC).

Membership is "limited" to those with bloodlines (lineal or collateral) to someone who served. Not sure why that's odd.

I didn't asked how it worked or say that it was odd. I asked why it was the case. It seems to have nothing to do with the stated mission to preserve and celebrate the heritage of the Confederacy. So what's the purpose for discriminating in this way? How does it further the goals of the organization? According to their website their purpose is:

preserving the history and legacy of these heroes, so future generations can understand the motives that animated the Southern Cause

Setting aside the fact that virtually everyone agrees that the motives that animated the Southern Cause was the preservation of slavery ... why can't women assist in this mission? Or people who care about the South's history and legacy who don't have a great-great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy? It seems to me that if you want to preserve history and legacy for future generations you'd want more members, not fewer.

The also say that their activities include:

Preservation work, marking Confederate soldier's graves, historical re-enactments, scholarly publications, and regular meetings to discuss the military and political history of the War Between the States are only a few of the activities sponsored by local units, called camps.

Isn't all of this done far better and far more easily if you involve more people? If there's a woman who is a great Civil War historian why would you willingly exclude her from participating in these activities?

Oh come on, I can see objecting to the base root of the confederacy but do we have to kill everything traditional? We can't be Sons Of and Daughters Of? Good lord let them dress up in their quartermasters and Scarlett outfits and do their genealogy research in their own way.

Sure we can. Just be honest about it and don't sell me some story about how noble they are and how their interest is the preservation of history and how they would be outraged, outraged I say!, at the shocking use of the Confederate battle flag in a gesture of racism (except maybe to cover their own asses).

 

[matttyl]

I'm so mad I can't be in the fraternal organization of police right now.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

SCV is "Sons of....", there is also the United Daughters of the Confederacy (UDC).

Membership is "limited" to those with bloodlines (lineal or collateral) to someone who served. Not sure why that's odd.

I didn't asked how it worked or say that it was odd. I asked why it was the case. It seems to have nothing to do with the stated mission to preserve and celebrate the heritage of the Confederacy. So what's the purpose for discriminating in this way? How does it further the goals of the organization? According to their website their purpose is:

preserving the history and legacy of these heroes, so future generations can understand the motives that animated the Southern Cause

Setting aside the fact that virtually everyone agrees that the motives that animated the Southern Cause was the preservation of slavery ... why can't women assist in this mission? Or people who care about the South's history and legacy who don't have a great-great-grandfather who fought for the Confederacy? It seems to me that if you want to preserve history and legacy for future generations you'd want more members, not fewer.

The also say that their activities include:

Preservation work, marking Confederate soldier's graves, historical re-enactments, scholarly publications, and regular meetings to discuss the military and political history of the War Between the States are only a few of the activities sponsored by local units, called camps.

Isn't all of this done far better and far more easily if you involve more people? If there's a woman who is a great Civil War historian why would you willingly exclude her from participating in these activities?

Oh come on, I can see objecting to the base root of the confederacy but do we have to kill everything traditional? We can't be Sons Of and Daughters Of? Good lord let them dress up in their quartermasters and Scarlett outfits and do their genealogy research in their own way.

Sure we can. Just be honest about it and don't sell me some story about how noble they are and how their interest is the preservation of history and how they would be outraged, outraged I say!, at the shocking use of the Confederate battle flag in a gesture of racism (except maybe to cover their own asses).

I think at one point you had a point about Jefferson and Jackson and how people who celebrated them could be celebrating aspects of their lives without celebrating every single last detail. I thought that was a really good point.

I respect your viewpoint here too, but let's not go on a purgefest. Let's let the SCV and DCV dress up in their greys and plant their flower gardens and talk about the bravery of their great-grandfathers in the space of their own hometowns.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Except that it's not a fraternal organization. It says nothing about fraternity (meaning companionship and brotherhood, not Collegiate fraternities) anywhere on its web site statement of what it's about or in its discussion of activities, as far as I can tell. It only says what I quoted above, missions and activities that would undoubtedly be enhanced by the participation of both women and people who can't trace their lineage to Confederate soldiers. If fraternity is the purpose, why not say that?

The fact that there's other organizations that do the same thing, or that people with similar interests who don't fit the CSV membership criteria can join other groups, is not an answer. I want to know why the CSV- this supposedly high-minded organization who we're toldwould immediately disavow anyone who uses the Confederate flag in conjuction with racist speech- is itself so exclusionary?

Exclusionary or exclusive? Perhaps they see it as a sure-fire way to vet the sincerity, dedication, and devotion of members. They are not preventing you from starting your own like-minded organization, and one with whom they might join or affiliate, they just happen to have a different criteria, as is their right.

Exclusionary.

And of course it's their right. I'm just wondering why they choose to exercise it. Certainly one's gender or bloodline is a poor method for evaluation of sincerity, dedication and devotion, yes? Discrimination based on gender or bloodline are both prohibited at places of employment by the Civil Rights Act. Why is it so important in this context to practice such discrimination? Certainly they can do so, as they are not subject to the Act. I'm just wondering why such a supposedly high-minded organization would make that choice.

Because exclusivity makes members feel special. People value feelings. See for example: Mayflower Society

Yup. I just wanted to hear mjolnirs admit it.

What these organizations stand for, above all else, is stroking each others' egos by excluding other people. Which is their right, just as its our right to laugh at them for it. What they can't do, however, is claim some moral high ground.

 

[Slapdash]

I'm still pissed the Daughters of the American Revolution won't let me in.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I wonder how many stupid people call up the SCV trying to get a prescription refilled.

 

[matttyl]

I wonder how many stupid people call up the SCV trying to get a prescription refilled.

They ain't stupid, they're dyslecix.

 

[jonessed]

Except that it's not a fraternal organization. It says nothing about fraternity (meaning companionship and brotherhood, not Collegiate fraternities) anywhere on its web site statement of what it's about or in its discussion of activities, as far as I can tell. It only says what I quoted above, missions and activities that would undoubtedly be enhanced by the participation of both women and people who can't trace their lineage to Confederate soldiers. If fraternity is the purpose, why not say that?

The fact that there's other organizations that do the same thing, or that people with similar interests who don't fit the CSV membership criteria can join other groups, is not an answer. I want to know why the CSV- this supposedly high-minded organization who we're toldwould immediately disavow anyone who uses the Confederate flag in conjuction with racist speech- is itself so exclusionary?

Exclusionary or exclusive? Perhaps they see it as a sure-fire way to vet the sincerity, dedication, and devotion of members. They are not preventing you from starting your own like-minded organization, and one with whom they might join or affiliate, they just happen to have a different criteria, as is their right.

Exclusionary.

And of course it's their right. I'm just wondering why they choose to exercise it. Certainly one's gender or bloodline is a poor method for evaluation of sincerity, dedication and devotion, yes? Discrimination based on gender or bloodline are both prohibited at places of employment by the Civil Rights Act. Why is it so important in this context to practice such discrimination? Certainly they can do so, as they are not subject to the Act. I'm just wondering why such a supposedly high-minded organization would make that choice.

Because exclusivity makes members feel special. People value feelings. See for example: Mayflower Society

Yup. I just wanted to hear mjolnirs admit it.

What these organizations stand for, above all else, is stroking each others' egos by excluding other people. Which is their right, just as its our right to laugh at them for it. What they can't do, however, is claim some moral high ground.

 

[Jayrod]

Everything I know about the Daughters of the American Revolution, I learned from Gilmore Girls.

 

[Slapdash]

The women in my division at work are having their own happy hour tonight. Is there some hotline for CRA violations like this?

 

[cstu]

Exclusionary or exclusive? Perhaps they see it as a sure-fire way to vet the sincerity, dedication, and devotion of members. They are not preventing you from starting your own like-minded organization, and one with whom they might join or affiliate, they just happen to have a different criteria, as is their right.

What the SCV needs is a black 'son of a Confederate veteran' to join. Pretty much the end of that organization right there.

 

[Mjolnirs]

Do you guys have a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy?

There's no background check, except for the genealogy aspect. Usually someone in the camp knows the applicant, but not always.Prospective members have to attend a certain number of monthly meetings and that gives most people a chance to get a feel for the individual.

If at any point someone has questions or issues about the person, they get discussed. Eventually a vote of members is taken before admission.

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

As others have mentioned, the UDC exists for this purpose. Regarding genealogy, camps can have Associate Members that do not have the blood connection.Our camp used to have British guy that was an Associate Member.

Isn't all of this done far better and far more easily if you involve more people? If there's a woman who is a great Civil War historian why would you willingly exclude her from participating in these activities?

We have wives that regularly attend the meetings with their husbands. We've had girlfriends, daughters and granddaughters of members attend meetings.Our camp has had several meetings with female speakers. These women are historians, written books and/or work at museums or park services.

A good number of my fellow camp members are reenactors as well. Most of them have wives that reenact. Not only do these wive wear the hoops and skirts, several of them have uniforms.

During Living History programs these women discuss life at home for women and children during the war. These women also help at memorial ceremonies in a variety of ways.

One couple in our camp own their own cannons, and anchor an Artillery battery for reenactments. They have enough women to "man" one cannon.

 

[Mjolnirs]

Exclusionary or exclusive? Perhaps they see it as a sure-fire way to vet the sincerity, dedication, and devotion of members. They are not preventing you from starting your own like-minded organization, and one with whom they might join or affiliate, they just happen to have a different criteria, as is their right.

What the SCV needs is a black 'son of a Confederate veteran' to join. Pretty much the end of that organization right there.

While it isn't a large number, there are black members of the SCV.

 

[GilbertGrape]

Hum yeah Henry about that avatar if yours, been doing a little research and as it turns out.... you *do* associate yourself with all aspects of that symbol you post under, don't you?

Saints:

I view Henry Ford as an innovative but deeply flawed man who was absolutely a racist living in a racist society, privileged in ways that he didn't even understand as a white man living in that time.

Yeah, I absolutely associate myself with all aspects of that, and hope regularly to be able to become a better person than that. And while I put Henry Ford as my board name, in an effort to remind myself to try not to be a narcissistic, privileged ###hole when I respond to people, I don't think I'd lose any sleep over his name being removed from a dinner.

Ford wasn't all bad. He at one point tried to: Pay his workers more, give them health insurance, and lower the price of the Model T all at the same time. Ford's shareholders filed a derivative action against him to prevent all that, and won. God Bless America.

 

[GilbertGrape]

Exclusionary or exclusive? Perhaps they see it as a sure-fire way to vet the sincerity, dedication, and devotion of members. They are not preventing you from starting your own like-minded organization, and one with whom they might join or affiliate, they just happen to have a different criteria, as is their right.

What the SCV needs is a black 'son of a Confederate veteran' to join. Pretty much the end of that organization right there.

While it isn't a large number, there are black members of the SCV.

Makes sense, there were blacks that fought for the South.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Pretty sweet shtick here

 

[TobiasFunke]

Do you guys have a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy?

There's no background check, except for the genealogy aspect. Usually someone in the camp knows the applicant, but not always.Prospective members have to attend a certain number of monthly meetings and that gives most people a chance to get a feel for the individual.

If at any point someone has questions or issues about the person, they get discussed. Eventually a vote of members is taken before admission.

I have an SCV question- why is the membership limited to men? Are women not capable of "preserving the history and legacy of these [Confederate] heroes?

For that matter why is genealogy important? If my family has lived in the South since 1900 and its history and legacy means a lot to me and I want to work to protect it, why am I not wanted?

As others have mentioned, the UDC exists for this purpose. Regarding genealogy, camps can have Associate Members that do not have the blood connection.Our camp used to have British guy that was an Associate Member.

Isn't all of this done far better and far more easily if you involve more people? If there's a woman who is a great Civil War historian why would you willingly exclude her from participating in these activities?

We have wives that regularly attend the meetings with their husbands. We've had girlfriends, daughters and granddaughters of members attend meetings.Our camp has had several meetings with female speakers. These women are historians, written books and/or work at museums or park services.

A good number of my fellow camp members are reenactors as well. Most of them have wives that reenact. Not only do these wive wear the hoops and skirts, several of them have uniforms.

During Living History programs these women discuss life at home for women and children during the war. These women also help at memorial ceremonies in a variety of ways.

One couple in our camp own their own cannons, and anchor an Artillery battery for reenactments. They have enough women to "man" one cannon.

None of these are answers to the question of why these exclusionary membership rules exist. But that's OK. I think we all know why they exist. Because the true purpose of the organization if to make the members feel superior, as is the case with any organization that limits membership for reasons other than merit or practicality.

 

[cstu]

Prospective members have to attend a certain number of monthly meetings and that gives most people a chance to get a feel for the individual.

If at any point someone has questions or issues about the person, they get discussed. Eventually a vote of members is taken before admission.

"He's white, all in favor say 'Aye'."

<in unison> "Aye"

 

[Mjolnirs]

None of these are answers to the question of why these exclusionary membership rules exist. But that's OK. I think we all know why they exist. Because the true purpose of the organization if to make the members feel superior, as is the case with any organization that limits membership for reasons other than merit or practicality.

Gosh, I'm sorry I didn't provide the politically incorrect answer that you were hoping for.

Prospective members have to attend a certain number of monthly meetings and that gives most people a chance to get a feel for the individual.

If at any point someone has questions or issues about the person, they get discussed. Eventually a vote of members is taken before admission.

"He's white, all in favor say 'Aye'."<in unison> "Aye"

Yeh, no.

 

[TobiasFunke]

None of these are answers to the question of why these exclusionary membership rules exist. But that's OK. I think we all know why they exist. Because the true purpose of the organization if to make the members feel superior, as is the case with any organization that limits membership for reasons other than merit or practicality.

Gosh, I'm sorry I didn't provide the politically incorrect answer that you were hoping for.

You didn't provide me any answer at all. I asked "why can't women and non-descendants of Confederate vets be members?" You said "they can do other things that are similar to being members!"

Advocating for separate but equal treatment rather than inclusion isn't a very good way to argue that your group's mission and choice of symbols are about something other than the South's discriminatory history (the reason the battle flag was first revived in the mid-20th century).

 

[Mjolnirs]

You didn't provide me any answer at all. I asked "why can't women and non-descendants of Confederate vets be members?" You said "they can do other things that are similar to being members!"

Advocating for separate but equal treatment rather than inclusion isn't a very good way to argue that your group's mission and choice of symbols are about something other than the South's discriminatory history (the reason the battle flag was first revived in the mid-20th century).

asked and answered.

As others have mentioned, the UDC exists for this purpose. Regarding genealogy, camps can have Associate Members that do not have the blood connection.

Do you have problem with the DAR and SUV as well?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Heritage not hate

Heritage not hate

 

[Mjolnirs]

Heritage not hate

Heritage not hate

Heritage

Heritage

Heritage

 

[TobiasFunke]

You didn't provide me any answer at all. I asked "why can't women and non-descendants of Confederate vets be members?" You said "they can do other things that are similar to being members!"

Advocating for separate but equal treatment rather than inclusion isn't a very good way to argue that your group's mission and choice of symbols are about something other than the South's discriminatory history (the reason the battle flag was first revived in the mid-20th century).

asked and answered.

As others have mentioned, the UDC exists for this purpose. Regarding genealogy, camps can have Associate Members that do not have the blood connection.

Do you have problem with the DAR and SUV as well?

"They can join this other group" is not an answer to the question "why can't they join your group." It's changing the subject so you don't have to admit to being discriminatory.

I can see I'm getting nowhere. You appear to be more interested in protecting people's ability to adorn gravestones with confederate flags (something that's actually not a right- the owner of the cemetery property is the one who makes that call in every instance, not the descendants of the dead) than with the fact that people are using the symbol as one of hatred and racism constantly.

If you want to continue to be linked to hatred and racism, that's your business. But stop trying to convince people that your motivations are decent and inclusive. They may well have been at one point- I don't doubt you at all. But you lost the ability to plead ignorance about how the symbol is being used by many other people and what it means to black people in America a long time ago. You're now someone who thinks those undeniable negative associations and repercussions are outweighed by your interest in protecting some vague notion of "heritage."

 

[Doug B]

None of these are answers to the question of why these exclusionary membership rules exist. But that's OK. I think we all know why they exist. Because the true purpose of the organization if to make the members feel superior ...

You're putting words in their mouths. This is something you think, not objective truth. The Civil War ended 150 years ago, and the present-day members of the SCV did not grow up in the antebellum South. Therefore, I think it is more reasonable to believe that SCV members in 2015 do not espouse the mindsets and beliefs of their great-great-great grandfathers.

And frankly, though you posit a negative motive, the reason the SCV doesn't allow women is likely nothing more than benign carry-over from "the way its always been, being there is a UDC and all". Seems likely to me that the two organizations often work together and share resources (people) anyhow ... perhaps those directly involved don't see the need to formally merge?

The SCV's admission criteria doesn't take money out of any minority's pockets, doesn't prevent minority school admissions or employment, etc. It's nothing more than free association, isn't it? Kind of a social club, or a Masonic Lodge? You're ascribing fairly heinous motives to the SCV without demonstrating any harm done.

I would even disagree with your earlier "Can't claim the moral high ground!" take. Who's claiming moral high ground? The next time anyone from the SCV goes public with a "we've got the moral high ground" position will be the first time I've ever noticed. It seems, really, that the SCV kind of keeps to itself and does get into political scraps. I will grant that the SCV might be a bigger deal and more ingrained in the social fabric of South Carolina than it is in New Orleans -- though there are re-enactors and such locally.

... as is the case with any organization that limits membership for reasons other than merit or practicality.

Many, many -- if not most -- organizations limit membership based on more or less arbitrary criteria. Gulf War vets can't join the Vietnam Veterans of America, though their service was certainly meritorious. Students from Southern University can't join LSU's Student Government Association (and vice versa) even though both school are located in the same city, share similar admission requirements, and are located close enough for easy travel between the two campuses..

OK for me to join the alumni association of a public college I didn't attend? I do have a college degree from another public institution, after all ... so I can't be kept out on merits.

 

[Doug B]

"They can join this other group" is not an answer to the question "why can't they join your group." It's changing the subject so you don't have to admit to being discriminatory.

I can see I'm getting nowhere. You appear to be more interested in protecting people's ability to adorn gravestones with confederate flags (something that's actually not a right- the owner of the cemetery property is the one who makes that call in every instance, not the descendants of the dead) than with the fact that people are using the symbol as one of hatred and racism constantly.

If you want to continue to be linked to hatred and racism, that's your business. But stop trying to convince people that your motivations are decent and inclusive. They may well have been at one point- I don't doubt you at all. But you lost the ability to plead ignorance about how the symbol is being used by many other people and what it means to black people in America a long time ago. You're now someone who thinks those undeniable negative associations and repercussions are outweighed by your interest in protecting some vague notion of "heritage."

Wait -- are you attacking the SCV because they won't let go of the Battle Flag? Or because of exclusionary admission policy?

Do you feel like similar exclusionary organizations (which are legion) are not problematic, because at least they don't use the Confederate Battle Flag for anything?

 

[Jayrod]

Heritage not hate

Heritage not hate

Heritage

Heritage

Heritage

Yes a wonderful tribute to all of the traitors who fought against their country for the right of their state to secede so they could still keep black people like cattle.

If that's the heritage you want to celebrate....