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What economists DO agree on (2 Viewers)

From Mankiw's blog:

11. A large federal budget deficit has an adverse effect on the economy. (83%)
And the other 17% of economists are Paul Krugman.
I don't know whether Krugman would be in the 17%, but I would be.I'd say that profligate government spending has an adverse effect on the economy, and budget deficits are highly correlated with government spending . . . but if there were some way to run up large budget deficits without profligate government spending (say, by having a zero percent tax rate for a few years), I don't think it would hurt the economy. If anything, it would help the economy in the short run and then hurt the economy down the road a bit (when our debts become due); but the overall cumulative effect would probably be similar to having a balanced budget the whole time with the same amount of government spending.

I think the bank account-ATM machine analogy is on point here. Think of the tax base as the government's bank account, and think of tax revenues as walking-around money that the government has withdrawn from the ATM.

Profligate spending will hurt our financial position, but it doesn't really matter that much whether our purchases are paid with cash we've withdrawn from the ATM, or are paid with a credit card so that we don't have to withdraw that much cash from the ATM yet. It's essentially the same thing. (Yes, we pay interest on our credit card debt; but we also earn interest on the money in our checking account. Capital grows when it is left in the private sector to be taxed later instead of being taxed now.) What makes a certain purchase smart or stupid is independent of how we pay for it. The problem is that a lot of our purchases are stupid, but that's a separate problem. None of our stupid purchases would become non-stupid just because we made sufficiently large ATM withdrawals to pay for them (thus balancing the budget).
I don't agree with the statement as written either. If you modified it to say large, structural, budget deficits I'd more or less concur. A deficit in any given year isn't particularly meaningful. Even over a series of years deficits caused by fluctuations in the business can be absorbed by the economy. Right now we have a short-term structural deficit, magnified greatly by the last recession and global economic weakness, running up to a much more significant long-term structural deficit.

 
As I look down that list, one thing occurs to me above everthing else: unions are the enemy.It's unions that push for protectionism, tarriffs, that attack outsourcing. It's unions that force wages that don't represent the marketplace. It's unions that demand minimum wage as a means of increasing their own wages. And it's the politicians that unions support that always push for populist measures like rent control. There was a time in this country when unions were a necessary good protection for workers. But now they have become a stranglehold over all of us.
I read recently that in the 50's when the economy was good and this country was an economic powerhouse, union members comprised 33% of the workforce. Now we're looking at 1 in 12 being a union member. Quite the decrease. When you subtract the govt unions, basically teachers and firemen, you get to 1 in 20 working adults as union members. Not population, just working adults. And the last I looked teachers and firemen werent calling for tariffs and the like. So your position is that 5% of the working adults in this country have a stranglehold on the rest of us?I dont see it. In fact of all my family and friends I know exactly 3 union members out of maybe 200 people. And their unions are just trying to survive this recession.Can you point us to these union demands that are sinking the country? I mean specific cases.There should be many according to your post.
 
So your position is that 5% of the working adults in this country have a stranglehold on the rest of us?

I dont see it.
Here's a list of the top political campaign donors for the past 23 years. Twelve of the top twenty contributors are labor unions. It shouldn't be surprising that they have mucho political sway.
Can you point us to these union demands that are sinking the country? I mean specific cases.
Here's one that I posted about a little while back.
 
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The issue with outsourcing is that we're trading, on the macro level as a nation, jobs and income for cheaper retail services that create comfort/entertainment more than they create wealth or economic power. On the manufacturing side, we're losing our expertise as a manufacturing nation to other countries. These are very troubling trends.
I wouldn't sweat it. Jobs that get exported out end up getting automated eventually anyways. Typical trend is: job created - job outsourced locally - job outsourced globally - job automated. Technology is on the back end just eating jobs.I personally favor a world with incredibly cheap goods and very little work required.
 
Maybe the 10% who didn't agree took issue with the word "significant"?
It's really stinking hard to find any question that 95%+ of people will answer the same way. 'Water is wet' might only poll 93% agreement.
"Wetness" is really just a sensation that we perceive inside our minds, like color and sound. So water isn't really wet, it just happens to have the property of triggering the sensation of "wet" in our brains. Kind of sad that 93% of people don't understand that. /typicalFBG
 
Maybe the 10% who didn't agree took issue with the word "significant"?
It's really stinking hard to find any question that 95%+ of people will answer the same way. 'Water is wet' might only poll 93% agreement.
Yeah, and some of those questions I am sure are answered that way due to dogma taught in intro econ classes. 1 and 12 especially stand out as concepts that are taught in intro econ classes that I don't think historically hold true - or at least have very little evidence supporting them.
 
Maybe the 10% who didn't agree took issue with the word "significant"?
It's really stinking hard to find any question that 95%+ of people will answer the same way. 'Water is wet' might only poll 93% agreement.
Yeah, and some of those questions I am sure are answered that way due to dogma taught in intro econ classes. 1 and 12 especially stand out as concepts that are taught in intro econ classes that I don't think historically hold true - or at least have very little evidence supporting them.
I assume you're talking about numbers 1 and 12 from post #1 (and not post #38).

I don't see how #1, regarding certain effects of rent control, can be empirically controversial. You're right that it's in all the econ textbooks. Here's Paul Krugman on the subject:

Almost every freshman-level textbook contains a case study on rent control, using its known adverse side effects to illustrate the principles of supply and demand. Sky-high rents on uncontrolled apartments, because desperate renters have nowhere to go -- and the absence of new apartment construction, despite those high rents, because landlords fear that controls will be extended? Predictable.

I have Greg Mankiw's textbook, Principles of Economics, and it's got the better part of two pages on a case study of rent control (pages 115-116 in the 6th ed.).

But that's because the theoretically predictable effects are supported by all the observational studies on the subject, isn't it? (See, for example, this one). Do you know of any published studies concluding that rent control doesn't reduce the quality and quantity of available housing? I know of some studies that conclude that zoning restrictions have a bigger effect in that regard than rent controls, but I don't know of any that say rent controls have no effect (or the reverse effect). (That may just be a limitation on my own knowledge, so if you can point to any that would be cool.)

As for number 12, that one's harder to get good empirical evidence on since increases in minimum wage are typically fairly small and, in any given situation, may be outweighed by confounding factors. My understanding is that the large majority of empirical studies on the topic conclude that minimum wage laws do increase unemployment among young and unskilled workers, but that there are a few studies going against the grain as well (famously including Card & Krueger). Still, I think it's completely uncontroversial that a large increase in minimum wage would reduce employment among unskilled workers — not because of dogma, but because of overwhelming obviousness.

 
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Maybe the 10% who didn't agree took issue with the word "significant"?
It's really stinking hard to find any question that 95%+ of people will answer the same way. 'Water is wet' might only poll 93% agreement.
"Wetness" is really just a sensation that we perceive inside our minds, like color and sound. So water isn't really wet, it just happens to have the property of triggering the sensation of "wet" in our brains. Kind of sad that 93% of people don't understand that. /typicalFBG
:golfclap:
 
Yeah, and some of those questions I am sure are answered that way due to dogma taught in intro econ classes. 1 and 12 especially stand out as concepts that are taught in intro econ classes that I don't think historically hold true - or at least have very little evidence supporting them.
Also, here's some strong evidence against the notion that the economists answered that way about rent control because they were influenced by a freshman textbook.

The IGM Experts Panel has the economists rate both their confidence in their answer (i.e., their level of expertise on the matter), and the degree to which they agree or disagree with the statement (or are unsure about it).

For rent control, the degree to which the individual economists agreed with the statement that rent control reduces housing availability and quality was strongly correlated with the degree to which they were sure about their answer. So the people who felt most strongly that rent control reduces housing availability and quality were the people who felt that they had some particular expertise on that subject, and were thus precisely the people who were least likely to be influenced by an introductory textbook.

 
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I assume you're talking about numbers 1 and 12 from post #1 (and not post #38).

I don't see how #1, regarding certain effects of rent control, can be empirically controversial. You're right that it's in all the econ textbooks. Here's Paul Krugman on the subject:

Almost every freshman-level textbook contains a case study on rent control, using its known adverse side effects to illustrate the principles of supply and demand. Sky-high rents on uncontrolled apartments, because desperate renters have nowhere to go -- and the absence of new apartment construction, despite those high rents, because landlords fear that controls will be extended? Predictable.

I have Greg Mankiw's textbook, Principles of Economics, and it's got the better part of two pages on a case study of rent control (pages 115-116 in the 6th ed.).But that's because the theoretically predictable effects are supported by all the observational studies on the subject, isn't it? (See, for example, this one). Do you know of any published studies concluding that rent control doesn't reduce the quality and quantity of available housing? I know of some studies that conclude that zoning restrictions have a bigger effect in that regard than rent controls, but I don't know of any that say rent controls have no effect (or the reverse effect). (That may just be a limitation on my own knowledge, so if you can point to any that would be cool.)
No studies to point you and I don't have the desire nor time to sift through econ papers and then try to determine the veracity and validity of their contents. That said, I think the economists make several assumptions that they treat as facts when discussing this subject. Assuming that economists are correct, if rent control was abolished then rents would be raised in the short term but new complexes would be built thus increasing the supply. In the long term rent could go up or down depending on the supply. Presumably, landlords would keep better care of the apartments because there is more supply and potential renters would have a choice as to where they live.Economists seem to imply that in the long term rents will go down - but this is likely only true if

1) There is land enough to build affordable complexes which offer affordable rent in the first place.

2) Said new complexes would have enough units to truly affect the supply in a noticeable way.

3) There would be enough competition to force landlords/owners to continuously improve their units to get renters.

In cities where there already is rent control I just don't see that being the case. This is primarily because land is at a premium - you can't just build more and more apartments. A book titled How the Other Half Lives by Riis showed the living conditions in late 19th century New York/Manhattan tenements. Landlords weren't building more apartments and keeping places nice. Because of high demand the renters lived in squalor and filth and were charged outrageous prices which just forced more and more people to split the rent. It was presumably easier and more cost efficient to do that then build more complexes. Why exactly would it be different in an even more populous and crowded city 120 years later? I have no doubt that luxury apartments might be built - but that really isn't what we are talking about with rent control. I won't even get into the ability of the landlord to dramatically increase your rent.

As for number 12, that one's harder to get good empirical evidence on since increases in minimum wage are typically fairly small and, in any given situation, may be outweighed by confounding factors. My understanding is that the large majority of empirical studies on the topic conclude that minimum wage laws do increase unemployment among young and unskilled workers, but that there are a few studies going against the grain as well (famously including Card & Krueger). Still, I think it's completely uncontroversial that a large increase in minimum wage would reduce employment among unskilled workers — not because of dogma, but because of overwhelming obviousness.
Sure, a large increase would make a difference. But, according to economics textbooks, *any* increase would reduce employment and "confounding factors" is just another way of economists saying "the model isn't working as we expected".
 
Yeah, and some of those questions I am sure are answered that way due to dogma taught in intro econ classes. 1 and 12 especially stand out as concepts that are taught in intro econ classes that I don't think historically hold true - or at least have very little evidence supporting them.
Also, here's some strong evidence against the notion that the economists answered that way about rent control because they were influenced by a freshman textbook.The IGM Experts Panel has the economists rate both their confidence in their answer (i.e., their level of expertise on the matter), and the degree to which they agree or disagree with the statement (or are unsure about it).

For rent control, the degree to which the individual economists agreed with the statement that rent control reduces housing availability and quality was strongly correlated with the degree to which they were sure about their answer. So the people who felt most strongly that rent control reduces housing availability and quality were the people who felt that they had some particular expertise on that subject, and were thus precisely the people who were least likely to be influenced by an introductory textbook.
Here are some of the quotes from that link though:
Unless all the textbooks are wrong, this is wrong.
Price controls create disincentives to increase supply. But without rent control, no one outside the top 1% would be left in Manhattan.
I understand what every single one of them is saying - but they all seem to assume that it is very easy to just increase supply. Some blame it on rent control, some blame it on zoning (which is probably more valid) but as someone who lived in the Bay Area in California, I just don't see it.
 
Update: A few more propositions that have garnered broad consensus:

1. Long run fiscal sustainability in the U.S. will require cuts in currently promised Medicare and Medicaid benefits, or tax increases that include higher taxes on households with incomes below $250,000. (Or both.)

2. A cut in federal income tax rates in the US right now would increase GDP in the short term, but would also decrease total tax revenues (i.e., it would not "pay for itself" in a Laffer-curve sense).

3. Trade with China makes most (but not all) Americans better off because, among other advantages, they can buy goods that are made or assembled more cheaply in China.

 
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Update: A few more propositions that have garnered broad consensus:

2. A cut in federal income tax rates in the US right now would increase GDP in the short term, but would also decrease total tax revenues (i.e., it would not "pay for itself" in a Laffer-curve sense).
I would have thought the idea that decreasing tax rates will pay for itself in a Laffer-curve sense would have been already put to rest after the Reagan years.
 
2. A cut in federal income tax rates in the US right now would increase GDP in the short term, but would also decrease total tax revenues (i.e., it would not "pay for itself" in a Laffer-curve sense).
Maurile, in the Paul Ryan thread this morning Matthias implied that this statement indicated that almost all economists agree that cutting taxes NEVER increases revenue. However, the words "right now" seem to imply differently, that this is only relative to our current state of affairs, and not a general rule. I was always under the impression that most free market economists generally believed that, in optimal conditions, lowering taxes does ultimately increase revenue by stimulating the economy. But Matthias asserts that I misunderstood these economists and that I am not correct about their assumptions about this (always possible.) What is your opinion?

 
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2. A cut in federal income tax rates in the US right now would increase GDP in the short term, but would also decrease total tax revenues (i.e., it would not "pay for itself" in a Laffer-curve sense).
Maurile, in the Paul Ryan thread this morning Matthias implied that this statement indicated that almost all economists agree that cutting taxes NEVER increases revenue. However, the words "right now" seem to imply differently, that this is only relative to our current state of affairs, and not a general rule. I was always under the impression that most free market economists generally believed that, in optimal conditions, lowering taxes does ultimately increase revenue by stimulating the economy. But Matthias asserts that I misunderstood these economists and that I am not correct about their assumptions about this (always possible.) What is your opinion?
The revenue-maximizing tax rate is above 0% and below 100%. I don't know exactly what the revenue-maximizing rate is, but call it N. If the current rate is below N, reducing tax rates will reduce tax revenues. If the current rate is above N, reducing tax rates will increase tax revenues.There's a very strong consensus among economists that the current rate is well below N.

In a hypothetical country with top marginal rates much higher than those in the U.S., reducing tax rates could lead to increased tax revenues. But the idea isn't relevant to current tax policy discussions in the U.S.

 
From Mankiw's blog:

11. A large federal budget deficit has an adverse effect on the economy. (83%)
And the other 17% of economists are Paul Krugman.
I don't know whether Krugman would be in the 17%, but I would be.I'd say that profligate government spending has an adverse effect on the economy, and budget deficits are highly correlated with government spending . . . but if there were some way to run up large budget deficits without profligate government spending (say, by having a zero percent tax rate for a few years), I don't think it would hurt the economy. If anything, it would help the economy in the short run and then hurt the economy down the road a bit (when our debts become due); but the overall cumulative effect would probably be similar to having a balanced budget the whole time with the same amount of government spending.

I think the bank account-ATM machine analogy is on point here. Think of the tax base as the government's bank account, and think of tax revenues as walking-around money that the government has withdrawn from the ATM.

Profligate spending will hurt our financial position, but it doesn't really matter that much whether our purchases are paid for with cash we've withdrawn from the ATM, or are paid for with a credit card so that we don't have to withdraw that much cash from the ATM yet. It's essentially the same thing. (Yes, we pay interest on our credit card debt; but we also earn interest on the money in our checking account. Capital grows when it is left in the private sector to be taxed later instead of being taxed now.) What makes a certain purchase smart or stupid is independent of how we pay for it. The problem is that a lot of our purchases are stupid, but that's a separate issue. None of our stupid purchases would become non-stupid just because we've made sufficiently large ATM withdrawals to pay for them (thus balancing the budget).
What are you considering "stupid purchases"? Discretionary private spending on consumer goods and/or services (travel, dining, etc)?
 
2. A cut in federal income tax rates in the US right now would increase GDP in the short term, but would also decrease total tax revenues (i.e., it would not "pay for itself" in a Laffer-curve sense).
Maurile, in the Paul Ryan thread this morning Matthias implied that this statement indicated that almost all economists agree that cutting taxes NEVER increases revenue. However, the words "right now" seem to imply differently, that this is only relative to our current state of affairs, and not a general rule. I was always under the impression that most free market economists generally believed that, in optimal conditions, lowering taxes does ultimately increase revenue by stimulating the economy. But Matthias asserts that I misunderstood these economists and that I am not correct about their assumptions about this (always possible.) What is your opinion?
The revenue-maximizing tax rate is above 0% and below 100%. I don't know exactly what the revenue-maximizing rate is, but call it N. If the current rate is below N, reducing tax rates will reduce tax revenues. If the current rate is above N, reducing tax rates will increase tax revenues.There's a very strong consensus among economists that the current rate is well below N.

In a hypothetical country with top marginal rates much higher than those in the U.S., reducing tax rates could lead to increased tax revenues. But the idea isn't relevant to current tax policy discussions in the U.S.
Interesting, thx. So Matthias is correct, and Paul Ryan seems to be discredited, at least on this issue. That's disconcerting. However, based on what else you reported, is it fair to say that a majority of economists agree with Ryan about Medicare?

 
2. A cut in federal income tax rates in the US right now would increase GDP in the short term, but would also decrease total tax revenues (i.e., it would not "pay for itself" in a Laffer-curve sense).
Maurile, in the Paul Ryan thread this morning Matthias implied that this statement indicated that almost all economists agree that cutting taxes NEVER increases revenue. However, the words "right now" seem to imply differently, that this is only relative to our current state of affairs, and not a general rule. I was always under the impression that most free market economists generally believed that, in optimal conditions, lowering taxes does ultimately increase revenue by stimulating the economy. But Matthias asserts that I misunderstood these economists and that I am not correct about their assumptions about this (always possible.) What is your opinion?
No economists believes that "optimal conditions, lowering taxes does ultimately increase revenue" as that is an absolute. A 1% tax rate will certainly generate more revenue than a 0% rate. Economists believe that there are points where you end up with ever diminishing returns by raising taxes and most (I think is fair to say) believe you reach a point where the returns turn negative (Laffer's Curve which is similar in general shape to a bell curve). A 100% across the board tax will certainly create a disincentive. Thus on the downside of the curve sure a tax cut will grow revenue, but your statement asserts (or seems to) that we are always on the downside of the curve. No one worth listening to can believe that. And most importantly all of the evidence with the current marginal income tax rates, 30+ years confirm that we are on the side of the curve where higher rates means higher revenue. There is just a limit to the revenue side, but there are still economic benefits to higher taxes (wealth creation vs profiteering).

The RIGHT NOW means that the bump in GDP will be offset by a decline in GDP as the deficit and financing the debt squeezes capital out of the private sector. Spending is the real tax to the economy. Tax rates just shift around where the money is coming from.

Oh, and not all taxes are alike. We aren't on the same place on all of these curves.

 
2. A cut in federal income tax rates in the US right now would increase GDP in the short term, but would also decrease total tax revenues (i.e., it would not "pay for itself" in a Laffer-curve sense).
Maurile, in the Paul Ryan thread this morning Matthias implied that this statement indicated that almost all economists agree that cutting taxes NEVER increases revenue. However, the words "right now" seem to imply differently, that this is only relative to our current state of affairs, and not a general rule. I was always under the impression that most free market economists generally believed that, in optimal conditions, lowering taxes does ultimately increase revenue by stimulating the economy. But Matthias asserts that I misunderstood these economists and that I am not correct about their assumptions about this (always possible.) What is your opinion?
The revenue-maximizing tax rate is above 0% and below 100%. I don't know exactly what the revenue-maximizing rate is, but call it N. If the current rate is below N, reducing tax rates will reduce tax revenues. If the current rate is above N, reducing tax rates will increase tax revenues.There's a very strong consensus among economists that the current rate is well below N.

In a hypothetical country with top marginal rates much higher than those in the U.S., reducing tax rates could lead to increased tax revenues. But the idea isn't relevant to current tax policy discussions in the U.S.
Interesting, thx. So Matthias is correct, and Paul Ryan seems to be discredited, at least on this issue. That's disconcerting. However, based on what else you reported, is it fair to say that a majority of economists agree with Ryan about Medicare?
I'm not an expert on Paul Ryan's tax plan, but my impression is that he's not relying on Laffer to stay revenue-neutral; he's relying in part on stimulating the economy, but also on broadening the tax base and closing loopholes. That was Reagan's approach, and it seemed to work. I'm not sure it's fair to say that Ryan is discredited (although, like I said, I don't know the details).I also don't know the details of Ryan's thoughts on Medicare, but I think it's fair to say that most economists believe that sustaining current Medicare policies very far into the future would necessitate large tax increases. It's going to keep getting more expensive unless something is changed.

 
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Update: economists still agree on a bunch of stuff.

The IGM Economic Experts Panel is a panel of 41 highly regarded economists from all political stripes. For the last several months, they've been polled on public policy matters related to economics. A number of issues garnered nearly universal agreement. Among them:

8. Rent controls in New York and San Francisco have had no positive impact on the amount and quality of affordable rental housing.
Suck it, liberals!
 
From Mankiw's blog:

2. Tariffs and import quotas usually reduce general economic welfare. (93%)
What is corresponding perspective to other countries trade restrictions? If free trade exists, I can see this being viable and sustainable, but in markets that don't allow the same open door, and can't or won't protect copyright's for manufacture and reproduction(cough China cough), does this stance change?
5. The United States should not restrict employers from outsourcing work to foreign countries. (90%)

6. The United States should eliminate agricultural subsidies. (85%)

7. Local and state governments should eliminate subsidies to professional sports franchises. (85%)

13. The government should restructure the welfare system along the lines of a "negative income tax." (79%)
Since this notion reaches across these four principles, what do economists say in regard to tax credits and federal subsidies of corporations as a whole? When global nationals can play on a world field without restriction and do so in a way that will not only manage their tax commiment, but allow outright subsidy and credit for massively profitable entities that also may draw or impact our shared natural resources, is there anything close to a consensus on this be positive or a negative?
 
From Mankiw's blog:

2. Tariffs and import quotas usually reduce general economic welfare. (93%)
What is corresponding perspective to other countries trade restrictions? If free trade exists, I can see this being viable and sustainable, but in markets that don't allow the same open door, and can't or won't protect copyright's for manufacture and reproduction(cough China cough), does this stance change?
No, it doesn't change. Even if other countries put up massive barriers and refuse to import our goods at all, we still gain from being able to buy cheaper goods from them.
 
2. A cut in federal income tax rates in the US right now would increase GDP in the short term, but would also decrease total tax revenues (i.e., it would not "pay for itself" in a Laffer-curve sense).
Maurile, in the Paul Ryan thread this morning Matthias implied that this statement indicated that almost all economists agree that cutting taxes NEVER increases revenue. However, the words "right now" seem to imply differently, that this is only relative to our current state of affairs, and not a general rule. I was always under the impression that most free market economists generally believed that, in optimal conditions, lowering taxes does ultimately increase revenue by stimulating the economy. But Matthias asserts that I misunderstood these economists and that I am not correct about their assumptions about this (always possible.) What is your opinion?
The revenue-maximizing tax rate is above 0% and below 100%. I don't know exactly what the revenue-maximizing rate is, but call it N. If the current rate is below N, reducing tax rates will reduce tax revenues. If the current rate is above N, reducing tax rates will increase tax revenues.There's a very strong consensus among economists that the current rate is well below N.

In a hypothetical country with top marginal rates much higher than those in the U.S., reducing tax rates could lead to increased tax revenues. But the idea isn't relevant to current tax policy discussions in the U.S.
Interesting, thx. So Matthias is correct, and Paul Ryan seems to be discredited, at least on this issue. That's disconcerting. However, based on what else you reported, is it fair to say that a majority of economists agree with Ryan about Medicare?
I'm not an expert on Paul Ryan's tax plan, but my impression is that he's not relying on Laffer to stay revenue-neutral; he's relying in part on stimulating the economy, but also on broadening the tax base and closing loopholes. That was Reagan's approach, and it seemed to work. I'm not sure it's fair to say that Ryan is discredited (although, like I said, I don't know the details).I also don't know the details of Ryan's thoughts on Medicare, but I think it's fair to say that most economists believe that sustaining current Medicare policies very far into the future would necessitate large tax increases. It's going to keep getting more expensive unless something is changed.
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
 
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive. (While we're at it, we can get rid of the employer-sponsored health insurance exclusion.)
 
Just reading on the topic of what economists agree on with the primary source being a blog from Greg Mankiw, recent controversy between economists on a paper Mankiw was involved in writing is relevant to this thread and to the current political season.

Mankiw is one of four fairly well-known economists toseemingly throw their weight behind Romney's program for economic recovery. (Glenn Hubbard, John Taylor and Kevin Hassett are the others).

However, their white paper linked above is coming under a lot of scrutiny based on the claims they make. Apparently, economists, and the authors of the studies that these conservative economists cite to support their claims, do not agree that their research supports the claims being made.

Here are some examples of posts referencing the problems with this white paper, and questioning what the authors were thinking:

Giving Economics a Bad Name

Greg Mankiw is known to every economist and economics student, if only because of his best selling textbook. John Taylor is known to every macroeconomist, if only because of the large number of bits of macro with his name on it (Taylor rule, Taylor contracts etc). Both are respected by other academics because of the quality and influence of their academic work.

With two others, they recently wrote this about the Obama administration’s attempts to stimulate the economy through fiscal policy after the recession: “The negative effect of the administration’s ‘stimulus’ policies has been documented in a number of empirical studies.” They then quote from two studies. The first looks at a minor aspect of the stimulus packages, the Cash for Clunkers attempt to bring forward car purchases. There are other studies of this programme which are more favourable. The second study is co-authored by John Taylor, and others have interpreted his findings differently.

No other studies are directly referred to. That might just be because the overwhelming majority suggest that the stimulus package worked. Dylan Matthews on Ezra Klein's blog documents them here. As I wrote in a recent post, the evidence is about as clear as it ever is in macro. Which is not too surprising, as it is what Mankiw’s textbook suggests, and it is what the New Keynesian theory both authors have contributed to suggests.

Now the quote comes from a paper prepared for the Romney presidential campaign. It is clearly political in tone and intent. As both academics are Republican supporters, it may therefore seem par for the course. But it should not be. The Romney campaign publicised this paper because it was written by academics – experts in their field. It allows those who oppose fiscal stimulus to continue to claim that the evidence is on their side – look, these distinguished academics say so.

It is one thing for economists to disagree about policy. It would also be fine to say I know the evidence is mixed, but I think some evidence is more reliable. It is not fine to imply that the evidence points in one direction when it points in the other. I say here imply, because the authors do not explicitly say that the majority of studies suggest stimulus is ineffective. If they chose their words carefully, then you have to ask whether ‘intending to mislead’ is any better than ‘misrepresenting the facts’. Was that the intent, or just an isolated unfortunate piece of bad phrasing? All I can say is read the paper and judge for yourself, or this post from Brad DeLong.

This is sad, because it tells us as much about economics as an academic discipline as it does about the individuals concerned. In the past I have imagined something similar happening in physics. It actually stretches the imagination to do so, but if it did, the academics concerned would immediately lose their academic reputation. The credibility of their work would be questioned. Responding to evidence rather than ignoring it is what distinguishes real science from pseudo science, and doctors from snake oil salesmen.

What can economics as a discipline do about this sad state of affairs? The answer is pretty obvious, to economists in particular, and that is changing the incentives where we can. However we cannot do much about the incentives provided by politics and the media. I have been pretty pessimistic about this in the past, but in a future post I will try and be more positive and talk about one possible way forward.
Economists to Romney campaign: That’s not what our research says

On Tuesday, the Romney campaign responded to the fire it’s taking from economic analysts by unleashing some artillery of their own. They released a paper by four decorated economists associated with the campaign — Glenn Hubbard, Greg Mankiw, John Taylor, and Kevin Hassett — that tried to lend some empirical backing to “The Romney Program for Economic Recovery, Growth, and Jobs.”

Hubbard, Mankiw, Taylor and Hassett make three main points: The first is that this recovery has been terribly slow, even by the standards of post-financial crisis recoveries. The second is that the Obama administration made a grievous error by relying on stimulus. And the third is that Romney’s tax and economic plans would usher in an era of rapid growth that would both be good for the country and provide the boost to revenues and employment necessary to make their numbers work out.

Each of these sections include supporting documents from independent economists. And so I contacted some of the named economists to ask what they thought of the Romney campaign’s interpretation of their research. In every case, they responded with a polite version of Marshall McLuhan’s famous riposte. The Romney campaign, they said, knows little of their work. Or of their policy proposals.

“The historical record is clear,” write the Romney campaign’s economists. “Our economy usually recovers quickly from recessions, and the more severe the recession, the faster the subsequent catch-up growth.” The paper they’re relying on here is “Deep Recessions, Fast Recoveries, and Financial Crises: Evidence from the American Record,” by Michael Bordo of Rutgers University and Joseph Haubrich of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland. So I asked Bordo whether he agreed that this recovery had been inexplicably sluggish, and whether a different set of policies could have dramatically shortened it.

“This recession is really quite different,” Bordo said. But he didn’t see government policy as the obvious cause. “We found that a lot of the difference between what would’ve been predicted by the normal behavior of recessions and what we observed now is explained by the collapse of residential investment. Put another way, if residential investment were what it was in a normal recovery, we would have recovered already.”

That is to say, what Bordo found was fairly consistent with the rest of the literature on this topic: Recessions associated with a housing bust tend to have very slow recoveries. That’s rather different than the Romney campaign’s interpretation of Bordo’s paper, which is that the features of this particular recession couldn’t explain the slow recovery, and thus you had to conclude that “America took a wrong turn in economic policy in the past three years.”

The Romney campaign then turns to the Obama administration’s response to the recession. “The negative effect of the administration’s ‘stimulus’ policies has been documented in a number of empirical studies,” they write. When Dylan Matthews surveyed the literature, he found 15 studies, of which 13 found the stimulus had a positive effect. But the Romney campaign only names two studies. One is by John Taylor, a Stanford economist who advises Romney and is, as luck would have it, one of the economists the Romney campaign tapped to coauthor this brief. That leaves one study that is not by a Romney-affiliated economist: Amir Sufi and Atif Mian’s look at the “Cash for Clunkers” program.

Sufi, an economist at the University of Chicago, is quick to point out that his paper did not show a negative effect for “the administration’s stimulus policies.” His paper was just about Cash for Clunkers. “This was a $4 billion program. It’s nothing, basically. We weren’t saying anything specific about broader stimulus programs, we were just looking at these programs to bring forward purchases of durable goods.”

So I asked Sufi what he thought of the stimulus more broadly. “Most of the research is pretty positive on stimulus,” he said. In particular, he pointed to a paper from Emi Nakamura and Jón Steinsson that used “cross-sectional data that seems to indicate the fiscal multiplier is quite large when you’re in a recession.”

I also asked him whether he thought the Romney campaign was right that this recovery was unusually slow in a way that was best explained by policy failures. “I strongly believe the evidence shows these private debt overhangs are always longer, the recoveries always slower,” he said. So that’s two strikes for the Romney campaign.

The key argument the Romney campaign makes for their candidate’s plan comes toward the end, when they try and answer the criticism of the vague tax-reform proposal. ”The Romney tax reform plan will increase GDP growth by between 0.5 percent and 1 percent per year over the next decade,” Romney’s economists write. “These long-run gains from tax and budget reform have been the subject of significant study by economists, as documented in the Appendix.”

So I turned to the appendix. Of the four studies mentioned, two of them are co-authored by Berkeley economist Alan Auerbach. When I looked deeper into the studies, however, they didn’t seem all that applicable to Romney’s tax plan. The Romney campaign, for instance, was using an estimate from a simulation Auerbach ran in which he replaced the income tax with a consumption tax. If the Romney campaign proposed such a policy, that would be very big news. But they have not proposed such a policy.

So I e-mailed Auerbach the relevant quote from the Romney campaign’s paper, and added two questions: “Given what we know and don’t know of the Romney plan, is it reasonable to attach these kinds of dynamic estimates to it? Do you think that reporters like me should assume that the 0.5-1% gdp boost is a reliable base case?”

His response came quickly. “I did not see the [Romney campaign's] paper, but from your description the basic answer to both of your questions is ‘no’,” he replied. His paper looked at “a much bigger tax change than Romney is proposing.” It also “assumed that all tax changes were revenue-neutral on an annual basis; the size of the Romney tax cuts makes this a questionable assumption.”

So, that’s three economists named in the Romney paper, not one of whom would sign on to the interpretation the Romney paper gave to their work.

There are interesting criticisms of the Obama campaign buried in the work of the economists the Romney campaign cited — the problem is that the Romney campaign doesn’t have the standing to make them.

Both Sufi and Bordo agree that the housing market was at the core of this recession, and of the sluggish recovery that has succeeded it. So one possible criticisms — which I’m sympathetic to — is that the Obama administration bobbled the single most significant policy question related to the recovery: What to do about housing.

But Sufi and Bordo disagree on what should have been done. “If the problem is housing, then the market needs to clear, and when the market needs to clear, it needs minimal amount of government intervention,” says Bordo. But when I probed whether Bordo was implicitly criticizing the Obama administration’s housing policies, he essentially shrugged. “We didn’t have massive government intervention in it anyway,” he says.

Sufi’s argument leads to a clearer critique of the Obama administration. He points to a Bloomberg column where he argued that “in both the data and the theory, the critical problem is the high level of debt in the household sector. So why doesn’t macroeconomic policy directly combat this problem?” Sufi goes on to advocate a program of debt forgiveness, though he admits that designing such a program effectively is very difficult. But while the Obama administration has been tepidly supportive of plans to reduce principal for underwater borrowers, the Romney campaign opposes it.

Indeed, the Romney campaign doesn’t have a housing policy at all. “Housing” isn’t one of the issues on their Web site. The word is only mentioned twice in their 160-page economic plan. There are no recommendations in this paper. Indeed, Hubbard, one of the authors of this paper and a key adviser to Romney, has advocated a large program to encourage mortgage refinancing in the past, but Romney hasn’t embraced it.

Indeed, as Nick Timiraos notes, Romney’s comments on housing have been self-contradictory. At one point, his position was, “Don’t try to stop the foreclosure process. Let it run its course and hit the bottom.” Later, he said, “The idea that somehow this is going to cure itself by itself is probably not real. There’s going to have to be a much more concerted effort to work with the lending institutions and help them take action, which is in their best interest and the best interest of the homeowners.” But the campaign never released a formal policy resolving these tensions.

Meanwhile, Auerbach added another interesting wrinkle to his analysis. “Our paper didn’t take into account business-cycle considerations,” he said. “To the extent that the Romney plan spurs a more rapid economic recovery from our current state of high unemployment, that could make a big difference in short-run growth estimates. These would basically be demand-side stimulus effects.” In other words, insofar as Romney’s tax cuts act as a Keynesian stimulus package, they could do more for the economy in the short-run than standard tax models would assume. But that requires assuming that Keynesian stimulus works, which would contradict the first section of the Romney campaign’s paper.

So even the studies that the Romney campaign’s economists handpicked to bolster their case don’t prove what the Romney campaign says they prove. And some of the key policy recommendations that flow from those studies are anathema to the Romney campaign. And in perhaps the key policy area highlighted by these studies, the Romney campaign doesn’t have a formal policy. If this is the best they can do in support of their economic plan, well, it’s not likely to quiet the critics.
Interesting piece on studies showing the stimulus worked and the few that don't support that, along with further breakdown of info.Interesting point by point breakdown of many points made in the white paper. Bias in tone of the author is obvious, but the points remain fairly valid.

All in all, I think a lot of people are surprised that a white paper published by these (mostly) respected economists would have so much in it that's either questionable, partisan, or just plain refuted by the existing evidence, or even the studies they cite.

The field of economics is in a huge battle right now for relevancy, or even for a position of clarity. Like one author mentioned, it's hard to see such a struggle for a valid working model in a field such as Physics, but it seems with Economics, you can have any opinion you want, put an opinion out there, and not pay any political or professional price when it turns out you were absolutely wrong, so long as there are groups out there who want to hear your opinion.

 
Big fan of the liberals coming in here trying to discredit a consensus of economists because the consensus doesn't agree with them. If this were Global Warming, they'd hide behind consensus all day. Stay classy guys.

:thumbup:

 
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Big fan of the liberals coming in here trying to discredit a consensus of economists because the consensus doesn't agree with them. If this were Global Warming, they'd hide behind consensus all day. Stay classy guys. :thumbup:
The problem is that, at least on research on stimulus spending, the majority of literature does agree that it worked or marginally worked, yet this paper only references the small number of papers that disagree, ignoring the larger body of evidence that supports it.In some ways, your Global Warming comment applies not to the liberal side as you intended, but to the conservatives who hold fast to the small number of dissenting opinions and ignore the larger body that agrees.In a thread started on a blog post from Mankiw about what economists agree on, Mankiw was recently part of a white paper that highlights ideas that the majority of economists do not agree with and the totality of available information/literature doesn't tend to support. It's interesting to me insofar as you can have intellectual consensus on some issues in the absence of policy and politics, but apparently when politics meets economics, whether something is "consensus" or not, becomes much less relevant than whether or not a given idea is suits a given political party.
 
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is relevant to this thread
It's not.
It's nice that economists can agree on stuff in principle, but apparently when push comes to shove, and politics gets involved, economists don't stick to "consensus" ideas so much as they stick to their political views and cherry-pick economic research to support their views.Sure, it's good for us to get an idea of what is consensus information, but if we don't use it to call out economists who are ignoring it, what good is knowing it? Mankiw seems to be, in a few cases, ignoring consensus economic views, and should be called out for it.
 
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'adonis said:
The problem is that, at least on research on stimulus spending, the majority of literature does agree that it worked or marginally worked, yet this paper only references the small number of papers that disagree, ignoring the larger body of evidence that supports it.
There's a consensus that it reduced unemployment. There isn't really a consensus that it "worked" in the sense of being worth the cost (although that is the majority view).
 
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'adonis said:
'SacramentoBob said:
'adonis said:
is relevant to this thread
It's not.
It's nice that economists can agree on stuff in principle, but apparently when push comes to shove, and politics gets involved, economists don't stick to "consensus" ideas so much as they stick to their political views and cherry-pick economic research to support their views.Sure, it's good for us to get an idea of what is consensus information, but if we don't use it to call out economists who are ignoring it, what good is knowing it? Mankiw seems to be, in a few cases, ignoring consensus economic views, and should be called out for it.
I love you.
 
The bottom line is economics (especially macroeconomics) is not a science, subject to the scientific method.

That is why you can get Nobel prize winners in consecutive years that are diametrically opposed to one another.

 
Obama's Platform

Cut the Deficit in Half - Lie

Fix the Economy - Lie

Close Guantanamo Bay - Lie

Televise Health Care Debate - Lie

Increase Transparency - Lie

End the War in Afghanistan - Lie

 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'Drunken Cowboy said:
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive. (While we're at it, we can get rid of the employer-sponsored health insurance exclusion.)
I don't disagree, but if you do so, you are raising the tax burden of the middle class significantly.
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'Drunken Cowboy said:
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive. (While we're at it, we can get rid of the employer-sponsored health insurance exclusion.)
I don't disagree, but if you do so, you are raising the tax burden of the middle class significantly.
So the mortgage interest deduction overwhelmingly benefits the wealthy, but if you take it away it will overwhelmingly hurt the middle class?
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'Drunken Cowboy said:
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive.
True. But it sure is popular. Eliminating it would be seen as a big screw you to the middle class.When you say "eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction" do you mean only the mortgage interest deduction or the mortgage interest and property tax deduction?

 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'Drunken Cowboy said:
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive. (While we're at it, we can get rid of the employer-sponsored health insurance exclusion.)
This pinko would be on board with these notions.
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'Drunken Cowboy said:
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive. (While we're at it, we can get rid of the employer-sponsored health insurance exclusion.)
I don't disagree, but if you do so, you are raising the tax burden of the middle class significantly.
So the mortgage interest deduction overwhelmingly benefits the wealthy, but if you take it away it will overwhelmingly hurt the middle class?
Yes, due to the proportionality of it's deduction versus gross income. It's THE major tax deduction for most. That said, I'm not opposed to it's gradual removal, as was done over five years in the UK back in the '90s.I do think there ought to be a complete elimination of a deduction for second homes.
 
'adonis said:
'SacramentoBob said:
Big fan of the liberals coming in here trying to discredit a consensus of economists because the consensus doesn't agree with them. If this were Global Warming, they'd hide behind consensus all day. Stay classy guys. :thumbup:
The problem is that, at least on research on stimulus spending, the majority of literature does agree that it worked or marginally worked, yet this paper only references the small number of papers that disagree, ignoring the larger body of evidence that supports it.In some ways, your Global Warming comment applies not to the liberal side as you intended, but to the conservatives who hold fast to the small number of dissenting opinions and ignore the larger body that agrees.In a thread started on a blog post from Mankiw about what economists agree on, Mankiw was recently part of a white paper that highlights ideas that the majority of economists do not agree with and the totality of available information/literature doesn't tend to support. It's interesting to me insofar as you can have intellectual consensus on some issues in the absence of policy and politics, but apparently when politics meets economics, whether something is "consensus" or not, becomes much less relevant than whether or not a given idea is suits a given political party.
I think you meant to post this sidetrack in the What Economists DO'NT Agree On thread.
 
'adonis said:
'SacramentoBob said:
'adonis said:
is relevant to this thread
It's not.
It's nice that economists can agree on stuff in principle, but apparently when push comes to shove, and politics gets involved, economists don't stick to "consensus" ideas so much as they stick to their political views and cherry-pick economic research to support their views.Sure, it's good for us to get an idea of what is consensus information, but if we don't use it to call out economists who are ignoring it, what good is knowing it? Mankiw seems to be, in a few cases, ignoring consensus economic views, and should be called out for it.
FWIW, Greg Mankiw is a vocal supporter of carbon taxation -- it's sort of a pet cause of his (and also one that enjoys something close to universal popularity among economists). So that's a good example of Mankiw, at least, sticking to a consensus idea even though it runs counter to the Republican agenda.
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'Drunken Cowboy said:
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive. (While we're at it, we can get rid of the employer-sponsored health insurance exclusion.)
I don't disagree, but if you do so, you are raising the tax burden of the middle class significantly.
So the mortgage interest deduction overwhelmingly benefits the wealthy, but if you take it away it will overwhelmingly hurt the middle class?
Yes, due to the proportionality of it's deduction versus gross income. It's THE major tax deduction for most. That said, I'm not opposed to it's gradual removal, as was done over five years in the UK back in the '90s.I do think there ought to be a complete elimination of a deduction for second homes.
I'm for eliminating it as well, but you can't have it both ways. Also, most people don't even take the mortgage interest deduction.
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'Drunken Cowboy said:
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive. (While we're at it, we can get rid of the employer-sponsored health insurance exclusion.)
I don't disagree, but if you do so, you are raising the tax burden of the middle class significantly.
So the mortgage interest deduction overwhelmingly benefits the wealthy, but if you take it away it will overwhelmingly hurt the middle class?
Yes, due to the proportionality of it's deduction versus gross income. It's THE major tax deduction for most. That said, I'm not opposed to it's gradual removal, as was done over five years in the UK back in the '90s.I do think there ought to be a complete elimination of a deduction for second homes.
I'm for eliminating it as well, but you can't have it both ways. Also, most people don't even take the mortgage interest deduction.
It really benefits people in the upper half of the middle class.
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'Drunken Cowboy said:
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive. (While we're at it, we can get rid of the employer-sponsored health insurance exclusion.)
I don't disagree, but if you do so, you are raising the tax burden of the middle class significantly.
So the mortgage interest deduction overwhelmingly benefits the wealthy, but if you take it away it will overwhelmingly hurt the middle class?
Yes, due to the proportionality of it's deduction versus gross income. It's THE major tax deduction for most. That said, I'm not opposed to it's gradual removal, as was done over five years in the UK back in the '90s.I do think there ought to be a complete elimination of a deduction for second homes.
I'm for eliminating it as well, but you can't have it both ways. Also, most people don't even take the mortgage interest deduction.
It really benefits people in the upper half of the middle class.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "upper half of the middle class", but the vast majority of the benefits go to the top quintile of earners.
 
'Maurile Tremblay said:
'Drunken Cowboy said:
Ryan has not been specific at all about loopholes. If he has something in mind that is truly tax neutral, it would basically have to be a huge reduction in deductions for the middle class (e.g. home loan interest deduction).
He should want to eliminate the home mortgage interest deduction: it distorts behavior and is regressive. (While we're at it, we can get rid of the employer-sponsored health insurance exclusion.)
I don't disagree, but if you do so, you are raising the tax burden of the middle class significantly.
So the mortgage interest deduction overwhelmingly benefits the wealthy, but if you take it away it will overwhelmingly hurt the middle class?
Yes, due to the proportionality of it's deduction versus gross income. It's THE major tax deduction for most. That said, I'm not opposed to it's gradual removal, as was done over five years in the UK back in the '90s.I do think there ought to be a complete elimination of a deduction for second homes.
I'm for eliminating it as well, but you can't have it both ways. Also, most people don't even take the mortgage interest deduction.
It really benefits people in the upper half of the middle class.
I guess it depends on what you mean by "upper half of the middle class", but the vast majority of the benefits go to the top quintile of earners.
Isn't mortgage interest deduction capped at some point? Or doesn't the AMT kick in?
 
'adonis said:
'SacramentoBob said:
'adonis said:
is relevant to this thread
It's not.
It's nice that economists can agree on stuff in principle, but apparently when push comes to shove, and politics gets involved, economists don't stick to "consensus" ideas so much as they stick to their political views and cherry-pick economic research to support their views.Sure, it's good for us to get an idea of what is consensus information, but if we don't use it to call out economists who are ignoring it, what good is knowing it? Mankiw seems to be, in a few cases, ignoring consensus economic views, and should be called out for it.
FWIW, Greg Mankiw is a vocal supporter of carbon taxation -- it's sort of a pet cause of his (and also one that enjoys something close to universal popularity among economists). So that's a good example of Mankiw, at least, sticking to a consensus idea even though it runs counter to the Republican agenda.
:thumbup: And you're right, the comments above should've been in another thread. I enjoy the main topic and don't want this to go far down the rabbit hole of politics.
 

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