popeye
Footballguy
Do you believe that giving someone a clean residence, clean clothes and access to affordable services (mental health, medical, barber/beautician) would change the way they felt about themselves and the way the act/treat others?
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What should we do about homeless people? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
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Do you believe that giving someone a clean residence, clean clothes and access to affordable services (mental health, medical, barber/beautician) would change the way they felt about themselves and the way the act/treat others?
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Sure, but the thread is about homelessness. Change it to mental health and poverty and I’m with you. But either way, one of my answers would still be a BIG. Doesn’t really address mental illness directly but does housing and poverty.
knowledge dropper
Footballguy
Instead of or to get student loan forgiveness maybe we train some of these thousands of folks with liberal arts degrees to be counselors for people with drug addiction and mental illnesses. Would be money better spent than other things.
jamny
Footballguy
Here in Boise it isn't a major problem but it is growing. There are groups that work to house them but the city itself isn't getting involved enough and is allowing others to dictate things. One such organization, Interfaith Sanctuary, holds so many of the cards here. They are the main low barrier shelter and get their way through some decidedly underhanded tactics. They are planning a location in a residential area to house 200+ guests. It borders houses very closely. This neighborhood already has two other homeless facilities within a half mile. They are very welcoming to helping out but a low barrier shelter, where families with children will be housed with single males with drug and violent histories was something they did not want. Hundreds of people came out to testify at a Planning and Zoning meeting where Interfaith was hoping to get a conditional use permit to build so close to a residential neighborhood. That failed P&Z but it went to the city council where it was overturned. The amount of abuse the locals took for their opinions and fears was disgusting. Why do they need to house those who have serious drug and mental health problems not only in close proximity to a residential neighborhood but also with people who are just down on their luck. The first group should be put away from population while they receive treatment while the rest get the help they need to try and get back on their feet. They are two (at least) different groups with different needs.
The woman running Interfaith has no real credentials and a history of poor management. They did a winter warming shelter around the block from my house last winter and the complete mismanagement and lack of oversight was obvious within months. Her current location is a nightmare according to neighbors there.
My point in this is that Boise is small scale and even here it's clear that our elected officials are afraid to make the tough decisions and instead are passing the buck to less than qualified "experts". Most of the people that spoke at the P&Z meetings had a better grasp on the subject and better ideas on how to address this problem than the mayor and those on the city council. As is the case in so many areas, the average American is made to suffer because of either the extremes who have the bigger megaphone or the money that influences our politicians.
Oh, and if you want to follow the money, Interfaith's current location has been drooled over by developers for years. Right in Downtown Boise.
The woman running Interfaith has no real credentials and a history of poor management. They did a winter warming shelter around the block from my house last winter and the complete mismanagement and lack of oversight was obvious within months. Her current location is a nightmare according to neighbors there.
My point in this is that Boise is small scale and even here it's clear that our elected officials are afraid to make the tough decisions and instead are passing the buck to less than qualified "experts". Most of the people that spoke at the P&Z meetings had a better grasp on the subject and better ideas on how to address this problem than the mayor and those on the city council. As is the case in so many areas, the average American is made to suffer because of either the extremes who have the bigger megaphone or the money that influences our politicians.
Oh, and if you want to follow the money, Interfaith's current location has been drooled over by developers for years. Right in Downtown Boise.
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
Complain about them while further cutting services that began with Regan. Seems to be working great so far. If your goal is to win elections.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
This statement is complete garbage.**
Gov. Jared Polis signed four bills that address homelessness Tuesday. The bills are funded by $200 million in federal relief money made available by Polis' administration.
Polis allocated the additional relief funding after The Affordable Housing Transformational Task Force exhausted an initial $400 million from the American Rescue Plan Act with its recommendations.
As part of the 2021 RISE Denver Bond Program, $37 million is being dedicated to homeless housing initiatives.
https://kdvr.com/news/local/denver-investing-millions-to-improve-homeless-services/#:~:text=As part of the 2021,dedicated to homeless housing initiatives.
https://patch.com/colorado/denver/big-investments-address-colorados-homelessness-crisis-become-law
** In Colorado, at least.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
what is the issue ?
list me 5 things that are an "issue"
you put this one
- These are terrible eyesores, they are bastions of drug use and crime.
- They are bastions of drug use and crime.
- ???
I see homeless as a product of how this society wants things right now. Drugs are ok, how people want to live is ok, its not your life don't worry about it, people have rights to be however they want to be, etc etc.
Do I feel sorry for homeless? Yes, I do. Why they live like that I'll never understand. Mental asylum's I've suggested before on gun threads and people say no no no we can't commit people involuntarily for their own safety.
So .. combine all that and the situations in big cities are what you have.
FWIW my first cousin ... rarely held a job, loved to drink and drugs and fight. Worthless all his life, homeless, arrested over and over, never want to do anything productive in life. Last I knew, he was in Lubbock County, TX based on his arrest records. He's one of these people. My daughter is 22 this summer and she's close to being one. Loves her drugs, doesn't want to work, expects the world to give her something. What do you do with people like that? Family can try, but if they don't want help, they just don't. You can stop homeless in big cities by not allowing them to camp out/stay in streets etc. There, the eye sore is gone, the drug use areas somewhat removed (at least from plain open site its not allowed) and this free drugs/needles thing? omg, please don't get me started. I'm sure they'll try and stay around/live around but if they're breaking laws, yes, arrest them. That solves those two issues. Drugs/crime ? Again, illegal, arrest them.
I know that sounds harsh, but what's been tried the past decade has led us to this - right now.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
let hem work off their loans by providing help with homeless people ?
I'm in - lets do it
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
What would Jesus Christ do?
FairWarning
Footballguy
The libs in their cities must be doing it right, they win every election.
timschochet
Footballguy
This is a fine question. I am an optimist and romantic and I’ve always loved My Fair Lady (Pygmalion by George Bernard Shaw), so I’d love to say yes. But in truth I don’t know. Even Shaw acknowledges, through his character Alfred Doolittle, that not everyone can be reformed.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Minister to and heal people, call some to give up their lives and follow him for a few years and then die on a cross for all sins, be resurrected conquering death, sin and hell and then leave his disciples with the Holy Spirit to run with it the rest of the way and build his church until he returns.
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-fish-
Footballguy
Seems like he could put his carpentry skills to work and bang together some tiny houses for them to live in.
urbanhack
Fight The Power!
Ted Wheeler (PDX) isn't liberal or progressive. He's a corporate D...he might as well have an R next to his name.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
overthrow the rich churches for #1
but speaking of ..... start taxing churches and 100% of that taxation goes to homeless shelters/food banks
done - I just solved them being on the streets and being fed. i didn't solve the drugs/crime/mental illness .... but one step at a time
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population
the above is interesting ... China has more homeless than USA, Netherlands ... Australia/UK/France is way high on list, Egypt is a country I wouldn't think of having mass homeless - but they do
supermike80
Footballguy
supermike80
Footballguy
Honestly...thats a yes and no answer. Some, as mentioned, simply won't take advantage of those things.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
Drop them off on homeless island. We can pay for it all by selling the TV rights.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
We need some real data on the makeup of homeless people and where they are.
There needs to be some serious accountability for how this money is being spent. It is kind if insane how much money gets spent here in denver for like one tent parking lot. Its a joke.
There needs to be some serious accountability for how this money is being spent. It is kind if insane how much money gets spent here in denver for like one tent parking lot. Its a joke.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
And in this is one of the reasons too. Property value and property income over people. Not calling you out but every homeless solution at some point hits this.
Housing? Not here.
Drug clinics? Not here, they loiter.
Mental health clinic? He'll no not here.
Low income housing? Build it there not here.
I get it. I'm a capitalist too.
Philo Beddoe
Footballguy
It will never be solved because these people for the most part, choose to live this way. Also, bureaucrats are appointed to solve these issues and they only make it worse and are corrupted. The only way to fix this is to 1.) legalize all drugs & 2.) create tent cities far away from civilization where all drugs are free provided by tax dollars.
moleculo
Footballguy
IMO it's much worse now than it was a few years ago because housing, in general, is so much more expensive. Solve that and you will go a long ways towards fixing the homeless problem.
I don't know how to do that. More housing? More affordable housing? more section-8 programs? Higher interest rates to freeze run-away property costs? better public transit so people are more willing/able to move to the 'burbs?
I don't know how to do that. More housing? More affordable housing? more section-8 programs? Higher interest rates to freeze run-away property costs? better public transit so people are more willing/able to move to the 'burbs?
timschochet
Footballguy
I really don’t know how true this is. I’m not saying it’s not true of some, but I would have a lot of trouble believing, without clear evidence, that it’s true “for the most part.”
Or let’s put it this way: I’m sure there are many people who are so addicted to drugs that they have no desire to live normal lives if it means having to give up the addiction. But that doesn’t mean they prefer to be homeless.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Why is this a problem?
People who pay property taxes in urban areas have every right to ensure the value of their property is protected. And that the surrounding neighborhood is beautified and safe to live in. Even more so since they are the ones paying for a good portion of it.
If urban residents' property gets devalued by homeless people who squat there for free, then of course those same residents are free to leave. But then you've got a Detroit-esque hollowing out of the urban core and that's even worse.
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Some of y'all know I do this thing with the help of my church with BBQ for the Homeless Folks in Knoxville. https://vimeo.com/128523784
My thought was bringing these folks some dignity. Lots of food for homeless folks is stuff that's one step short of the dumpster. It's out of date stuff from the grocery or yesterday's bagels and such. I'm grateful for that as it's better than throwing it out. But I wanted to do food that was good. So when we're there, the very best BBQ in Knoxville is served to our Homeless Folks. For any bible nerds, there's talk about bringing "first fruits" to the alter, not the second best stuff. They weren't talking about pork BBQ back then, but the concept of bringing and sharing your best is the bigger idea.
I've got a lot of experience up close with this population.
I'll maybe add more later if I can get time but I'll say it's a terribly complex problem.
I have plenty of people who are knowledgeable about the issue that will say I'm not helping. That I'm enabling by providing good food and comfort. Maybe they're right. I don't know for sure. It feels right to me to give comfort.
But it's incredibly complicated. There are definitely a certain percentage of the folks I know who prefer camping outside to the shelters. Some because of pets. Others, my guess is more, because there are no rules on alcohol or drugs when you're camping.
I often leave the dinner there discouraged as the problem feels so big. And I don't feel like I'm helping with the bigger problem.
My thought was bringing these folks some dignity. Lots of food for homeless folks is stuff that's one step short of the dumpster. It's out of date stuff from the grocery or yesterday's bagels and such. I'm grateful for that as it's better than throwing it out. But I wanted to do food that was good. So when we're there, the very best BBQ in Knoxville is served to our Homeless Folks. For any bible nerds, there's talk about bringing "first fruits" to the alter, not the second best stuff. They weren't talking about pork BBQ back then, but the concept of bringing and sharing your best is the bigger idea.
I've got a lot of experience up close with this population.
I'll maybe add more later if I can get time but I'll say it's a terribly complex problem.
I have plenty of people who are knowledgeable about the issue that will say I'm not helping. That I'm enabling by providing good food and comfort. Maybe they're right. I don't know for sure. It feels right to me to give comfort.
But it's incredibly complicated. There are definitely a certain percentage of the folks I know who prefer camping outside to the shelters. Some because of pets. Others, my guess is more, because there are no rules on alcohol or drugs when you're camping.
I often leave the dinner there discouraged as the problem feels so big. And I don't feel like I'm helping with the bigger problem.
BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
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Dickies
Footballguy
Similarly there are cities that "solve" their homeless problem by buying them one-way bus tickets to other cities
Dickies
Footballguy
You are doing a good thing for the homeless and urge you to ignore those who think you’re just enabling them. Whatever the solution is to this complex problem, treating them with dignity has to be the first step
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Also because you cant hoard stuff.
Not saying that as a joke. Many homeless people carry a lot of literal baggage with them and are very possessive of it.
Yes. When someone tells me they are camping and not staying at the shelter, I always ask why. Very often the answer is “my stuff gets stolen there at the shelter.“
The other answer when I ask why they are not staying at the shelter, is often along the lines of “would you wanna sleep in a room with 200 other dudes on bunkbeds? “
I get it.
I get it.
I get it that Christians are the easy punching bag on this. And of course, we can always do a lot more. But at least from my personal experience, I have seen the Christian community in my area be extremely generous with this. We’re clearly called in scripture to be helpful here. Again, we can obviously do more. But I also don’t discount a lot of good I see here.
McBokonon
Footballguy
Plenty of organizations do homelessness prevention. Sometimes it’s just helping with rent/utilities while the workforce situation is handled. The “almost homeless” are definitely a focus, though. But yeah, more resources are needed and paying Case Managers or Housing Navigators more would help.
opensourcebeer
Footballguy
And declare the war on drugs as a failure, which it is. Use that money for treatment and rehab.
And acknowledged that the mental health treatment availability and quality is a tremendous problem. Then work to fix that problem.
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Stoneworker
Footballguy
Of course we all "get it." But these people are getting free shelter, paid for by others.
200 other dudes on bunkbeds is not a dream scenario, but nor is it necessarily abusive or inhumane. Being a known supporter of the military (thank you), I'm sure you're aware that for those guys it's around 40-50 to a barracks.
Why shouldn't there be restrictions/requirements in public housing, so that safe, clean shelter can be provided to the most people possible per tax dollar?
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opensourcebeer
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
For 10 years, I served on the Board (2 years as Board Chair) of a homeless services charitable organization (medical, dental behavioral health and case management services). One of my favorite aspects of this particular organization is that we had members of the Board who were formerly homeless. It was an extremely rewarding and educational experience. If you are interested in better understanding the homeless population and making a difference in what seems to be an insurmountable problem, you should consider joining the board of a homeless charity in your area. I think your skill set would bring a lot to a board.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Literally, what would Jesus do?
I’ll offer my brother as an example. He is on the spectrum, hasn’t worked in 35 years and basically financially supported by his family. We have tried numerous times to get him more support (financial and services) with no success. We even hired a law firm to provide a diagnosis with no success. So if we cant solve my brothers problem why does anyone expect we can solve anyone’s problem?
FairWarning
Footballguy
He may be but he really ran down Portland also. It;’s too bad as its a beautiful city.
Sure. But I think it’s way more productive to appreciate the good things that are being done and focus on how we can do more. Clearly this is a difficult and complex problem. I’m maybe in the minority but I think less punching and more helping is better.
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FairWarning
Footballguy
The difficult thing for me (and I think many people) is to know when you're comforting vs enabling. And how those two overlap.
At least that's my challenge.
There's also a huge element in this of dignity.
And personalization.
I've found this to be a good area where getting to know the individual people makes the issue feel different than when you're speaking of a faceless group.
When it's Tom or Jackie or Gator. And not just the "homeless".
There's an element of "control" that's interesting.
One of the boards I was on was involved in developing an old hotel downtown into subsidized housing for homeless folks getting off the street. They did a big remodel of the run down hotel and it was nice. Caseworker on site all the time and security and all the things you'd think would be good.
Then the issue came up of whether alcohol should be allowed.
As you may know, alcohol is a way many folks self medicate that are homeless. My neighbors with anxiety have prozac prescribed by their doctor. A homeless person with anxiety or depression "prescribes" himself cheap alcohol. Additionally, alcoholism is a real issue.
When the question came up, I wasn't sure what we should do about allowing alcohol. My friend who was the president of the ministry was adamant that they allow alcohol. His opinion was we were to treat these people like adults and with dignity. After hearing his arguments, I agreed with him. But it was a legit question. There are lots of nuanced details like this.
And personalization.
I've found this to be a good area where getting to know the individual people makes the issue feel different than when you're speaking of a faceless group.
When it's Tom or Jackie or Gator. And not just the "homeless".
There's an element of "control" that's interesting.
One of the boards I was on was involved in developing an old hotel downtown into subsidized housing for homeless folks getting off the street. They did a big remodel of the run down hotel and it was nice. Caseworker on site all the time and security and all the things you'd think would be good.
Then the issue came up of whether alcohol should be allowed.
As you may know, alcohol is a way many folks self medicate that are homeless. My neighbors with anxiety have prozac prescribed by their doctor. A homeless person with anxiety or depression "prescribes" himself cheap alcohol. Additionally, alcoholism is a real issue.
When the question came up, I wasn't sure what we should do about allowing alcohol. My friend who was the president of the ministry was adamant that they allow alcohol. His opinion was we were to treat these people like adults and with dignity. After hearing his arguments, I agreed with him. But it was a legit question. There are lots of nuanced details like this.
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Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
We need to take off the gloves with our tribe. Far too many of them/us are willing to quote Jesus and throw His book at people instead of actually following Him. And far too many churches are happy to be their own little enclaves serving each other and complaining about sm everything outside the 4 walls.
It's time we tell our mega church leaders and family that is great, good job. You grew your location/s... you need to keep working on the church, and that means getting outside of buildings and serving helping and.. yes.. sacrificing for others. We should be ashamed of churches that have 40 million dollar budgets in areas where there are homeless people.
We just should be. We should be better. And yes there is good work being done. Yes those that do it deserve praise. Yes perfect is the enemy of good..... all of that.
He demanded more of us. It's easy to be s believer. It's harder to be a follower. He didn't ask for simple believers. And to many of us are simple believers.
Off my soapbox. Just a vent.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I get the sentiment to this, but I think it isn't the question we Christians should be asking. Jesus had a very specific mission and came and did exactly that, leaving a whole lot people still homeless and oppressed in his day.
The question I think we need to be asking is what does God want us to do? I think the answer to that is very, very specific. Specific to individuals, situations and timeframes. The only way to navigate tough issues like this and grey areas as a believer is to lean heavily on time in prayer, Bible study and listening to the Holy Spirit. Without that, we have no hope of making a true and lasting difference. When we try to figure it out in our own human mind we are extremely limited by what we know and understand.
I think if the group that calls themselves disciples of Jesus did just that, these problems would be much fewer and further between. Unfortunately, we spend too much time and energy on our own entertainment and pleasure seeking to be bothered with helping the poor and oppressed. Injustice is all around us, but we drown it out like my 15 yr old with his airpods in all day...oblivious to the world around. I know I'm guilty. I've spent hours over the last couple of weeks obsessing, watching, and debating the Boston Celtics playoff run and have only thrown a few dollars towards some charity and not lifted a finger to help anyone tangibly in months.
Which brings me back to my first point, I need to be asking what God wants me to do. Because I can't quit my job and abandon my responsibilities to my family and I don't have the financial means right now to give any more without hamstringing my future. In all honesty, it is probably one conversation at a time, one small act at a time that I need to be open and ready to provide at all times. That is what it is like to live and walk in the Spirit and I've done it at times, but most of the time I have not. It is hard and takes discipline and focus and those are two of my weaknesses. God help me be better.
FairWarning
Footballguy
It’s really a shame that we can’t help the homeless who served for the country more.
FairWarning
Footballguy
I wasn’t clear on this - I have a real problem with cities enabling open drug use and providing needles, safe spaces for them to do it.
what to do about that? IDK, that is on the cities to figure out. Safer drugs is still drugs. It definitely isn’t a all-inclusive problem here, there are many layers to it. If we can fly people in from the southern border all around the country in the middle of the night, where are they living?
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Sure. I'm still not sure "taking off the gloves" and punching is the best way. We can definitely do better. Tons of churches of all sizes do a great job following Jesus in this already. I'd like to do more.
I think that's preferable to the blanket they should do better, "but they won't.". I see it more as "We should do more". I'm maybe too nice but I've found it's much easier to persuade and convince people if you work with them instead of punch them.
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