Why soccer will never be big in the USA....... (1 Viewer)

[B Maverick]

Shortly after, they made the change to require only two defenders, and the rule remained unchanged for about 60 years until FIFA made the change for even is on instead of off side.

And maybe someday the linesmen will actuall be told of this and get it right.

 

[NewlyRetired]

And hence "Why soccer will never be big in the USA"

what defines "big"?  Does it have to be NFL size to be considered big?

Right now soccer and hockey are pretty close in size (some would argue soccer has already past hockey in popularity in the US).  Note this is talking about the sports as a whole, not comparing just NHL to MLS (NHL is significantly bigger than MLS).

 

[NewlyRetired]

And maybe someday the linesmen will actuall be told of this and get it right.

I have said many times my biggest problem with the rule is the difficulty in calling it right.  The AR's are still so inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense in almost anything close.

 

[EYLive]

You old football and basketball guys are dying out, though. The new century belongs to basketball, soccer and UFC. Your grandkids will be laughing at pop pop sitting there through all those commercials while they argue about a ref's call on the field.

 "old football and basketball guys"? Do you have any idea how old I am? Funny.

Look up my posts in football related threads, you won't find any. Look up my posts in the NBA thread as well. Now look up my posts in the UFC thread.  

BTW, which is it? is basketball dying out or does it "belong to the new century"? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Soccer guys sure are defensive.  

 

[NewlyRetired]

BTW, which is it? is basketball dying out or does it "belong to the new century"? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I don't want to speak for him but reading the sentence I think he meant Baseball in the first sentence instead of basketball.

 

[B Maverick]

I have said many times my biggest problem with the rule is the difficulty in calling it right.  The AR's are still so inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense in almost anything close.

And although this may be a better discussion in the soccer thread, I agree that it should lean to the attacker.  And not just because it may help with all the comments of hate above. haha. The media also doesn't help when they freeze frame and show a guys front foot or arm ahead and say this should be off... but i digress

 

[EYLive]

what defines "big"?  Does it have to be NFL size to be considered big?

Right now soccer and hockey are pretty close in size (some would argue soccer has already past hockey in popularity in the US).  Note this is talking about the sports as a whole, not comparing just NHL to MLS (NHL is significantly bigger than MLS).

 It's not my thread title.

Soccer is the 1st sport most kids play, so why do people abandon it when they grow up? Simple, there are more exciting sports out there. You can tout the subtleties and nuances all you want. Hell, chess is subtle and nuanced, nobody wants to watch chess either.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

I hate this stupid time of year, why do their season's need to be so long? Do the schedulers of the EPL not realize that most of their games start at 7 am best coast time, which requires me to go to the damn bar so I can watch 6 games at once and proceed to drink until the last la liga game of the day which is usually starting at 1pm. My waist, my family and my liver all dislike soccer but me on the other hand  

 

[NewlyRetired]

Soccer is the 1st sport most kids play, so why do people abandon it when they grow up? Simple, there are more exciting sports out there. 

Soccer is no more abandoned than any other sport very young kids play.  The baseball drop out rate is larger than soccer.

The reasons young kids stop playing a sport is that they tend to not be good at it and as you get older the competition and spots to play a sport are dramatically reduced from when you are a child and it is open to anyone.

 

[B Maverick]

 It's not my thread title.

Soccer is the 1st sport most kids play, so why do people abandon it when they grow up? Simple, there are more exciting sports out there. You can tout the subtleties and nuances all you want. Hell, chess is subtle and nuanced, nobody wants to watch chess either.

I disagree. There are better paying sports out there.  Other college sports are more televised.

"More exciting" is a matter of perspective.  And until recently there was not a viable pro league for aspiring soccer players to go to.  There is now.  

 

[NewlyRetired]

Hell, chess is subtle and nuanced, nobody wants to watch chess either.

You do understand millions and millions of people watch and attend soccer games every week in the US right?

 

[cstu]

Yeah, penalty kicks are dumb. It's like a baseball game that's a scoreless pitchers' dual, then deciding a winner with a homerun derby.

 

[EYLive]

Great. Soccer's amazing. Enjoy. 

 

[El Floppo]

Soccer is the 1st sport most kids play, so why do people abandon it when they grow up? Simple, there are more exciting sports out there. 

Soccer is no more abandoned than any other sport very young kids play.  The baseball drop out rate is larger than soccer.

The reasons young kids stop playing a sport is that they tend to not be good at it and as you get older the competition and spots to play a sport are dramatically reduced from when you are a child and it is open to anyone.

I'll let NR give the numbers... but IMO, some athletes leave the sport because the money isn't there relative to the other sports.

min salary something like 60k in MLS? less? 

that said- MLS is only 20 years old, so as I said upthread... kids 20 and younger are the only ones who have grown up with any idea that playing pro soccer was even an option. speaking for myself- I was at a level where if I lived anywhere else, I would have been playing pro ball... maybe not top flight, but somewhere. here, college soccer was the highest level available- so that's what I did. now the MLS teams have all pretty uniformly, and only recently, brought in youth academies that funnel top talent more directly into the pros- similar to europe. with the growth of the league- and yes, there's been profound growth, especially in the same last 10 years where soccer has become more available on cable tv- IMO, wages will rise too. 

 

[The Gator]

Soccer is the 1st sport most kids play, so why do people abandon it when they grow up? Simple, there are more exciting sports out there. 

It has a LOT to do with coaching. 

Most rec kids soccer coaches can't teach them how to be good at the sport, so they never become good at it. Baseball coach knows more about baseball and can improve kids. Kids get better at one sport and want to play the sport they're good at. 

Plus it is a critical thinking game, that goes over a lot of kids heads or they don't care to learn it. 

The chess comparison is a pretty good one.

 

[El Floppo]

Great. Soccer's amazing. Enjoy. 

lol.

I actually like hearing about why people don't like it... if it's thought out. the posts about hockey and rink size, number of shots makes sense to me, even if I don't agree.  of course- if you say something that's easily discussed or disputed (kids drop out), then you should expect discussion or dispute. 

usually people have the same comments- boring (low-scoring) and too much flopping/histrionics. "boring"... is like, your opinion, man. flopping/histrionics- nobody here likes, even the most die-hard soccer nerds.

 

[Hawks64]

what defines "big"?  Does it have to be NFL size to be considered big?

Right now soccer and hockey are pretty close in size (some would argue soccer has already past hockey in popularity in the US).  Note this is talking about the sports as a whole, not comparing just NHL to MLS (NHL is significantly bigger than MLS).

I would think it would be based on the professional level of the sport and the level of popularity.

 

[El Floppo]

It has a LOT to do with coaching. 

Most rec kids soccer coaches can't teach them how to be good at the sport, so they never become good at it. Baseball coach knows more about baseball and can improve kids. Kids get better at one sport and want to play the sport they're good at. 

Plus it is a critical thinking game, that goes over a lot of kids heads or they don't care to learn it. 

The chess comparison is a pretty good one.

the free-flowing, adaptive part is one that JK brought up that I find interesting: US sports involve a lot of plays being called from the bench and/or stopping to discuss them- could be that US kids' mentality doesn't take as easily to having to call their own shots on the field in a more fluid situation.

 

[El Floppo]

I would think it would be based on the professional level of the sport and the level of popularity.

what do both of those mean to you? how do you gauge either? (I'm curious- not trying to trip you up here).

 

[Hawks64]

You do understand millions and millions of people watch and attend soccer games every week in the US right?

So why is it soooooo far behind the NHL which is the red headed step child of professional sports?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

the free-flowing, adaptive part is one that JK brought up that I find interesting: US sports involve a lot of plays being called from the bench and/or stopping to discuss them- could be that US kids' mentality doesn't take as easily to having to call their own shots on the field in a more fluid situation.

My understanding is that a lot of what Pep and Jogi are doing is kind of the opposite.  They're using lots of mental reps to teach sort of canned responses to certain spatial conditions.  Much like chess, in fact, where the great players recognize that pattern. 

You hear more of American players being tactically naïve than you even hear about technical deficiencies and I think that's true.

 

[The Gator]

the free-flowing, adaptive part is one that JK brought up that I find interesting: US sports involve a lot of plays being called from the bench and/or stopping to discuss them- could be that US kids' mentality doesn't take as easily to having to call their own shots on the field in a more fluid situation.

Yeah, there's very little on field thinking for yourself by other athletes. Basketball gets close, but as soon as one team makes two baskets in a row there's a timeout and the flow is kilt. 

 

[Hawks64]

what do both of those mean to you? how do you gauge either? (I'm curious- not trying to trip you up here).

The pinnacle of the sport in the US. NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS. I think it's pretty easy to gauge popularity, the leagues revenue. Lots of other metrics you can use but if using revenue you capture the broadcast rights, ad revenues, ticket and concession sales, etc.

 

[Steve Tasker]

the free-flowing, adaptive part is one that JK brought up that I find interesting: US sports involve a lot of plays being called from the bench and/or stopping to discuss them- could be that US kids' mentality doesn't take as easily to having to call their own shots on the field in a more fluid situation.

I don't know that I'd say that.  We hear a lot about the dropoff of kids quitting the game, and that's a valid point, but could that just be a numbers game?

When I was younger, I played organized soccer, baseball, hockey, and light dabbling in lacrosse.  Every kid I knew played local soccer and local baseball, and maybe another sport.  But everyone played baseball and soccer.  By the time I hit age 10, it was clear that I wasn't much of a baseball player or a hockey player, and I didn't really care, so I focused on soccer.  For other kids, it was different.  

My point is that when a kid hits a certain age, either he likes the sport and wants to continue or he doesn't.  I played with hundreds of kids over the years.  Maybe 1/4 ended up playing in high school.  Maybe 2-3% play in college.  I know a small handful who play/played semi-pro or had professional trials that didn't work out.  And 1 plays in MLS.  This is all a long-winded way of saying that over time, people will be filtered out of any sport.  Soccer gets the rep because so many people are pushed into it as kids....it is a very kid-friendly sport...it gets you out, running around, teamwork, relatively low injury rate among young kids.  A lot of these kids never really care or cared about soccer, they were just there because their parents wanted them to get out and exercise and socialize.  You don't see such a pronounced dropout rate among other sports because parents aren't pushing the kids to play those sports at a young age.  Your average 5 year old isn't playing football or ice hockey, but he's probably playing soccer and baseball.  And inevitably, from a pure numbers game, he's statistically likely to give up one or both of those sports a few years later.  

 

[Ned]

the free-flowing, adaptive part is one that JK brought up that I find interesting: US sports involve a lot of plays being called from the bench and/or stopping to discuss them- could be that US kids' mentality doesn't take as easily to having to call their own shots on the field in a more fluid situation.

Are you calling us dumb?????????????? dems fightin words.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I would think it would be based on the professional level of the sport and the level of popularity.

I agree.

I was talking more about relative size.  If soccer is as popular as hockey is that considered big or does it have to be as big as football or baseball to be considered big.

Knowing where soccer was 20 years ago and where it is today, it feels big to me, but everything is relative I guess.

 

[Hawks64]

the free-flowing, adaptive part is one that JK brought up that I find interesting: US sports involve a lot of plays being called from the bench and/or stopping to discuss them- could be that US kids' mentality doesn't take as easily to having to call their own shots on the field in a more fluid situation.

Hockey is the closet to the free-flowing and adaptive piece you reference. Sure there can be a lot of face-offs but you do have sustained periods of time without them.

 

[The Gator]

One thing 'Muricans need to get used to too, is not having the best league in the country. We have the best basketball/baseball/hockey(suck it Canada) league.

In soccer though, much like Spain, we do not have the best league. 

 

[El Floppo]

The pinnacle of the sport in the US. NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS. I think it's pretty easy to gauge popularity, the leagues revenue. Lots of other metrics you can use but if using revenue you capture the broadcast rights, ad revenues, ticket and concession sales, etc.

you listed those leagues in order of revenue, too- right? 

yeah, I'd agree with revenue... and that captures the domestic league for sure. not sure how it wraps in the sport as a whole (including foreign leagues that have grown in popularity)- seems like there's been a ton of growth in the US of people liking/watching/following soccer in other countries.... but not sure how that's calculated in revenues (TV broadcast rights, shirts sales, etc I guess).

 

[Hawks64]

I agree.

I was talking more about relative size.  If soccer is as popular as hockey is that considered big or does it have to be as big as football or baseball to be considered big.

Knowing where soccer was 20 years ago and where it is today, it feels big to me, but everything is relative I guess.

How do you define popular though? I think the pro revenue is the clearest indication of popularity. Not many people are going to spend $$ on something they don't like watching.

 

[El Floppo]

Hockey is the closet to the free-flowing and adaptive piece you reference. Sure there can be a lot of face-offs but you do have sustained periods of time without them.

I was thinking that... but I don't know the sport well enough. are there plays called in hockey?

 

[Hawks64]

you listed those leagues in order of revenue, too- right? 

yeah, I'd agree with revenue... and that captures the domestic league for sure. not sure how it wraps in the sport as a whole (including foreign leagues that have grown in popularity)- seems like there's been a ton of growth in the US of people liking/watching/following soccer in other countries.... but not sure how that's calculated in revenues (TV broadcast rights, shirts sales, etc I guess).

Nope, think MLB is bigger than NBA...here's a wiki link about revenue that includes world wide in comparison.

 

[NewlyRetired]

The pinnacle of the sport in the US. NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS. I think it's pretty easy to gauge popularity, the leagues revenue. Lots of other metrics you can use but if using revenue you capture the broadcast rights, ad revenues, ticket and concession sales, etc.

Soccer in the US goes well beyond MLS.  Both the EPL and Mexican league are more popular.  And then you throw in the World Cup, the Euro's, The Gold Cup, which most other sports don't have anything equivalent in size or popularity in the US.

 

[Steve Tasker]

So why is it soooooo far behind the NHL which is the red headed step child of professional sports?

To be fair, and I'm not really arguing one way or the other, the NHL has been around for close to 100 years and the MLS has been around since 1996.  If you were born anytime after, say, the 50s, hockey was at least part of the sports consciousness.  Soccer doesn't have anywhere near that history.

 

[Hawks64]

Soccer in the US goes well beyond MLS.  Both the EPL and Mexican league are more popular.  And then you throw in the World Cup, the Euro's, The Gold Cup, which most other sports don't have anything equivalent in size or popularity in the US.

Let's talk $$ though, that to me equates to the actual popularity. According to that wiki link Premier League isn't that close to the big 3 here.

 

[NewlyRetired]

So why is it soooooo far behind the NHL which is the red headed step child of professional sports?

Because soccer fans are significantly splintered in this country watching numerous leagues as I mentioned before.  You can't just compare MLS to the NHL as you are comparing a small portion of the soccer fan base to pretty much the entire hockey fan base.

When you look at the tv ratings for the WC, the Euro's, Copa America etc when soccer fans focus on one thing, the ratings do very well in comparison to hockey.

 

[Ned]

The pinnacle of the sport in the US. NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS. I think it's pretty easy to gauge popularity, the leagues revenue. Lots of other metrics you can use but if using revenue you capture the broadcast rights, ad revenues, ticket and concession sales, etc.

you listed those leagues in order of revenue, too- right? 

yeah, I'd agree with revenue... and that captures the domestic league for sure. not sure how it wraps in the sport as a whole (including foreign leagues that have grown in popularity)- seems like there's been a ton of growth in the US of people liking/watching/following soccer in other countries.... but not sure how that's calculated in revenues (TV broadcast rights, shirts sales, etc I guess).

It's anecdotal evidence, but when we were at the Crystal Palace/Philadelphia Union friendly last month, I saw more CP jerseys than PU jerseys (by a good margin).  The loudest section?  A bunch of CP fans.  I'd never seen a damn CP jersey in the flesh until that game.  I was shocked at their (relative) popularity.

My small circle of soccer friends all follow the EPL much closer than the MLS.

You'd have to include the EPL, La Liga, and Liga MX into the revenue equation somehow.  (Sorry @Kafka)

 

[Hawks64]

To be fair, and I'm not really arguing one way or the other, the NHL has been around for close to 100 years and the MLS has been around since 1996.  If you were born anytime after, say, the 50s, hockey was at least part of the sports consciousness.  Soccer doesn't have anywhere near that history.

Also doesn't have the disaster that was the lockout in 04/05. No TV and attendance way down across the league, revenue way down. NHL has made a big comeback and still isn't close to the big 3. NBA at 3 has almost double the revenue.

 

[Ned]

Hockey is the closet to the free-flowing and adaptive piece you reference. Sure there can be a lot of face-offs but you do have sustained periods of time without them.

I was thinking that... but I don't know the sport well enough. are there plays called in hockey?

The hockey angle is a good one.  I've been drawn to it at times because of how fast/flowing it is, but have never latched on to it because I just don't know the game that well to be able to really appreciate it.

 

[Hawks64]

Because soccer fans are significantly splintered in this country watching numerous leagues as I mentioned before.  You can't just compare MLS to the NHL as you are comparing a small portion of the soccer fan base to pretty much the entire hockey fan base.

When you look at the tv ratings for the WC, the Euro's, Copa America etc when soccer fans focus on one thing, the ratings do very well in comparison to hockey.

So compare the Premier League then, which isn't even US which is what this thread is about IIRC. And Premiere is still in the same position as the NHL, NBA still almost double the revenue. It's going to be a very long time till something other than NFL, MLB, and NBA are in the top 3.

 

[El Floppo]

Also doesn't have the disaster that was the lockout in 04/05. No TV and attendance way down across the league, revenue way down. NHL has made a big comeback and still isn't close to the big 3. NBA at 3 has almost double the revenue.

the NHL didn't almost fold either... MLS was inches away, and has rebounded and expanded hugely.

 

[Hawks64]

I was thinking that... but I don't know the sport well enough. are there plays called in hockey?

Yes and no, some set plays off of face-offs but when play is going back and forth not really a play that can be called.

 

[roadkill1292]

 "old football and basketball guys"? Do you have any idea how old I am? Funny.

Look up my posts in football related threads, you won't find any. Look up my posts in the NBA thread as well. Now look up my posts in the UFC thread.  

BTW, which is it? is basketball dying out or does it "belong to the new century"? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Soccer guys sure are defensive.  

Sorry, meant football and baseball guys. Your days are numbered, not basketball guys. 

You don't follow football, basketball or soccer? Why are you here? Is it the scintillating food talk in GM's thread? ACP's Skyrim thread? Trump NAMBLA discussions?

 

[NewlyRetired]

Let's talk $$ though, that to me equates to the actual popularity. According to that wiki link Premier League isn't that close to the big 3 here.

Agreed when just looking at specific leagues but soccer revenue is not just tied to leagues.  Two of the biggest revenue generators in soccer are the World Cup and the UCL.

There are no direct comparisons to things like that in the traditional big 4 so it makes direct comparisons tricky.  YMMV

 

[El Floppo]

Agreed when just looking at specific leagues but soccer revenue is not just tied to leagues.  Two of the biggest revenue generators in soccer are the World Cup and the UCL.

There are no direct comparisons to things like that in the traditional big 4 so it makes direct comparisons tricky.  YMMV

the world series counts, doesn't it? all the best teams in the world duking it out for world domination.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I was thinking that... but I don't know the sport well enough. are there plays called in hockey?

Not really. You play your systems and have a few set plays on faceoffs, power plays and breakouts but the game is so fluid that rarely do they work as they're supposed to.

 

[Hawks64]

Agreed when just looking at specific leagues but soccer revenue is not just tied to leagues.  Two of the biggest revenue generators in soccer are the World Cup and the UCL.

There are no direct comparisons to things like that in the traditional big 4 so it makes direct comparisons tricky.  YMMV

Agreed, but that's what we are talking about US sports. If you want to include everything then you need to include F1 and NASCAR....which complicates it even more.

 

[NewlyRetired]

So compare the Premier League then, which isn't even US which is what this thread is about IIRC

what do you mean its not US?  The Premier league draws higher ratings on NBCSN than the NHL does (regular season). Link from a couple of season ago

EPL teams draw huge crowds across the country every summer.  105k just recently attended a game in Michigan.

And the EPL is not even the most popular soccer league in the US.  That still remains with the Mexican 1st division (Liga MX).

 

[El Floppo]

Yes and no, some set plays off of face-offs but when play is going back and forth not really a play that can be called.

Not really. You play your systems and have a few set plays on faceoffs, power plays and breakouts but the game is so fluid that rarely do they work as they're supposed to.

thanks guys... I've always wondered that. 

similar to soccer in that way- only set plays on dead-ball situations (shooting from free-kicks or corner kicks).

so- similar flow, but size of rink and speed of the ice puts a lot of action directly in front of goal relative to soccer, which is more about building up play to create the opportunities. if you're not into the build-up and don't think of it as "action"... makes sense you'd find it boring. 

 

[Hawks64]

what do you mean its not US?  The Premier league draws higher ratings on NBCSN than the NHL does (regular season).

EPL teams draw huge crowds across the country every summer.  105k just recently attended a game in Michigan.

And the EPL is not even the most popular soccer league in the US.  That still remains with the Mexican 1st division (Liga MX).

That's exactly why I used revenue. It includes things like ticket sales, ad revenue, sponsorships, ratings, etc. IMO it's the best overall indicator of popularity. There are Premiere League teams in the US? Thought that was Europe, shows how much soccer I know lol. Regardless let's use the revenue as the indicator of popularity, otherwise it gets really sticky due to arena size and games per season.