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Why soccer will never be big in the USA....... (2 Viewers)

shader said:
Interesting stat for the "soccer is boring" guys.

A soccer game lasts about 110 minutes including HT.  Average goals per game:  around 2.7

So you need to watch a game for 40.7 minutes to see a goal.

An NFL game lasts about 190 minutes.  Average TD's per game:  4.7

So you need to watch a game for 40.4 minutes to see a TD.

So yeah, the NFL has more scoring in a single game....but I can watch 2 soccer games in the time it takes to watch 1 NFL game and the goals=td's will be even.
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A FG is a score...there are also 3.6 FG's per game so it's 22.9 minutes between scoring plays.

 
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shader said:
His post was dead on accurate.  I've been at the peak of football fandom.  I've lived and breathed Alabama football, I've written countless fantasy football articles, I've counted the days until the draft, until mini-camps, until fall practice, analyzed pre-season games, and celebrated opening day with much excitement.

But there's nothing like the tension in soccer.  The only problem is, it's only tense if you care.  If you just flip on the TV and watch a game, you may not notice the tension.

But if you're a fan of a team, the tension is unbelievable and hard to compare to any other sport.  I suppose I can compare it to the 2-minute drill when your team is losing by 5 (or winning by 5).  That's a very tense moment in football.

In soccer, goals are so important that an entire HALF, heck, an entire GAME can feel that way.  If you're down 1-0 and you start the 2nd half, you'll sit at the screen transfixed for 45 minutes just waiting on the equalizer.  Or conversely if you're leading at halftime 1-0, you will be unbelievably nervous for the entire half and the tension just builds and builds and builds, with no commercials, stoppages or breaks to relieve the tension.

Trust me, my 30-year old self would read the above and call me a fool, but it's true!
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I agree with you, but it's difficult to care when I have nothing invested in the outcome.  So Arsenal (or whoever) loses... :shrug:   I enjoy watching the U.S. team but it's only once every four years that it matters.

 
shader said:
You may be right.  But that "200 million" expansion fee seems out of whack to me.  
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It really doesn't matter what it seems like to us.  It matters that they have a significant amount of cities and extremely rich people who are competing to get into the league.  

These people see the books that we do not and they are not even blinking at the $200m fee and that is knowing that many of these expansion teams will have to find another 200-300 to build stadiums as well.

 
The Z Machine said:
I said sometimes... A dead game is a dead game.  Happens in all sports.

At least you know that the game will be over in a set amount of time, +/- 3 mins.  You don't have to waste any more time waiting for the 9th inning or more stupid commercials.
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Yep because that is what sports fans want, predictability. 

 
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cstu said:
I agree with you, but it's difficult to care when I have nothing invested in the outcome.  So Arsenal (or whoever) loses... :shrug:   I enjoy watching the U.S. team but it's only once every four years that it matters.
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For people who are fans, there are a ton of US games that matter more than just the WC.  The Gold Cup, Copa America and World Cup Qualifying have a ton of games that matter every cycle.

 
NewlyRetired said:
For people who are fans, there are a ton of US games that matter more than just the WC.  The Gold Cup, Copa America and World Cup Qualifying have a ton of games that matter every cycle.
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every game matters... to me.

a chance to see new players, new coaches, new tactical set-ups, or just the same guys and how they've progressed against new competition. these are all the stepping stones that get the US to the next WC, and eventually- hopefully- some kind of sustained dominance ala Brazil, Germany etc. it's about the journey.

 
El Floppo said:
every game matters... to me.

a chance to see new players, new coaches, new tactical set-ups, or just the same guys and how they've progressed against new competition. these are all the stepping stones that get the US to the next WC, and eventually- hopefully- some kind of sustained dominance ala Brazil, Germany etc. it's about the journey.
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yup.  But we are fans.

Casual people who don't follow the sport have the impression that the team just arises once every 4 years to play 3 games in the WC with out understanding that there are probably 60 or so games that go into that journey just to get there every cycle.

 
cstu said:
A FG is a score...there are also 3.6 FG's per game so it's 22.9 minutes between scoring plays.
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Yeah, but a mid-game field goal has zero excitement.  I mean seriously, when's the last time you pumped your first and yelled because your kicker nailed a 36 yarder in the 2nd quarter?

 
NewlyRetired said:
It really doesn't matter what it seems like to us.  It matters that they have a significant amount of cities and extremely rich people who are competing to get into the league.  

These people see the books that we do not and they are not even blinking at the $200m fee and that is knowing that many of these expansion teams will have to find another 200-300 to build stadiums as well.
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It's a good point.  I hope the MLS succeeds and I think it will.  

 
shader said:
It's a good point.  I hope the MLS succeeds and I think it will.  
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there is no way to know.  Most signs outside of TV ratings look good for the league but most growth cycles have bubbles.

The big unknown is that the rank and file MLS player has been bending over for the league in the last 2 CBA's.  Eventually that is going to stop and will likely lead to some sort of work stoppage and lord knows what could happen then. 

 
shader said:
Yeah, but a mid-game field goal has zero excitement.  I mean seriously, when's the last time you pumped your first and yelled because your kicker nailed a 36 yarder in the 2nd quarter?
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And yet, mostly all soccer is is kicking a ball.

 
cstu said:
I agree with you, but it's difficult to care when I have nothing invested in the outcome.  So Arsenal (or whoever) loses... :shrug:   I enjoy watching the U.S. team but it's only once every four years that it matters.
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Exactly.  

So if one was going to become a fan of the sport, I'd imagine the first step would be to get invested.  Pick a team, learn about the players, watch them play every game, etc.

I can't describe how I became a massive Liverpool fan.  When I asked this board for recommendations on a team, I figured I'd learn a little about them and that I'd have a new sport to watch on the weekends from time to time.  

I never imagined I'd become a full-fledged freak about it.  I mean seriously, when Liverpool loses a crushing game, I'm angry for hours, if not days.  It's strange and some family/friends think it's weird.  

I'd put my "sports passion" for Liverpool on par with anything I've felt for any team aside from Alabama football.

Even now, I've probably spent 98% more time researching LIV than Bama this off-season, though all Bama fans are a bit spoiled atm...when do the playoffs start? 

 
shader said:
I never imagined I'd become a full-fledged freak about it.  I mean seriously, when Liverpool loses a crushing game, I'm angry for hours, if not days. 
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So basically you're angry all the time now?

 
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What in the name of Jaysus and Kafka is going on in here?  13 pages of this crap?  I'll just go back to my very lengthy USMNT and soccer threads.

 
cstu said:
I agree with you, but it's difficult to care when I have nothing invested in the outcome.  So Arsenal (or whoever) loses... :shrug:   I enjoy watching the U.S. team but it's only once every four years that it matters.
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I think that used to be the case but it isn't anymore. The Copa tourney was a pretty big deal and I got the impression even the casual fan was into the results. I concede that the uninformed fan doesn't tune in too often but I think the needle has moved off caring only once every four years.

 
NewlyRetired said:
the fact that a near automatic 35 yard field goal in the second quarter causes so little emotion from fans has nothing to do with the act of kicking.
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Yep, those never get any emotion.    I also guess you never been to a college game.  Again, you guys are so touchy you can't even look at the facts.   

 
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CGRdrJoe said:
golf is just hitting a ball, baseball is just throwing and hitting a ball, football is just getting the ball to the endzone. See, I guess you are right :shrug:  
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Yes, golf is mostly hitting a ball.   You are wrong on the other two.   But you have no perspective it seems, so that doesn't surprise me.

 
cstu said:
Where's the anticipation when your team is down 0-2 and you know the game is over?
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I enjoy watching soccer ... but this is my single biggest beef with the game -- lack of comebacks.

Yes, yes ... it happens. Sure. But, say, a USMT going down 2-0 against a top-5 side (Brazil, Germany, etc.) has less than 0.1% chance of coming back to win (draws just don't seem to do it, though in group play they can obviously be important). Just an aspect of the sport, and it is what it is. But it does take a lot of juice out of some games.

 
shader said:
I never imagined I'd become a full-fledged freak about it.  I mean seriously, when Liverpool loses a crushing game, I'm angry for hours, if not days.  It's strange and some family/friends think it's weird.
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I kinda like soccer for the opposite reason. There's been a few Michigan State losses over the years where I start to question the whole concept of sports fandom. Why do I watch if it makes me this upset?

With soccer it actually feels kinda liberating to not be so invested and just watch some sports and be entertained for a couple hours.

 
FatUncleJerryBuss said:
Yes, golf is mostly hitting a ball.   You are wrong on the other two.   But you have no perspective it seems, so that doesn't surprise me.
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I blame @CGRdrJoe 's alleged/perceived "lack of perspective" on his affinity for day-drinking.

####...I meant to say "day-dreaming"...

 
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FatUncleJerryBuss said:
All this but no answer.
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I will answer. 
 

Soccer is game with the objective of advancing a spherical ball into a goal.  Outfield players may accomplish this goal by using any part of their body except for their hands or arms.  To this end, they routinely use their heads, their chests, their thighs, and even their backs.  In addition to initiating the action of advancing the ball, usually but not always by kicking it, soccer players must receive and control the ball, also without the use of their hands and arms.  As this may require gathering a ball struck in excess of forty yards without using their hands while under pressure from an opponent, this is a challenging skill.  So too is the skill of making the requisite run to receive a productive pass in the first place, particularly when that run is near to the scoring area. 

Of course, soccer players, as in other sports without clear divisions between defensive and offensive players, are tasked with preventing the opposing team from advancing the ball to the goal.  Soccer players attempt to frustrate this purpose through a number of skills.  By "tackling" or physically dispossessing a player, by intercepting passes intended for the opposing team, and by employing sophisticated team positioning to that prioritizes defending tight spaces and spaces near the scoring area.
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Much as with football, much is going on.  I could replace a few key words in that description and accurately describe football.  None of which is to say that you should enjoy soccer or that soccer is going to be big in America.  Again, I don't know and I don't care.  It is, however, more than just kicking a ball.

People may prefer higher or lower scoring sports, of course, but I doubt that is really happening in most cases.  Few prefer arena football to the NFL, despite the higher scores.  And people who routinely decry soccer for being low scoring may also decry basketball for being too high scoring.  In both soccer and football, excitement is not derived solely by scoring.  The average football game features any number of relatively boring scoring plays.  Not just field goals, but short runs and passes with very little drama.  But the short touchdown may have been precipitated by a truly exciting play.  Or the prevention of a scoring play may have been exciting.  The same is true for soccer. 

 
shader said:
I was reading today about some really bad TV ratings for the MLS on Fox.  At this point, the MLS is going to need to do more than just fill seats in order to expand.  It's going to have to somehow become a big part of America's sporting psyche to grab viewers. 

Heck, I'm a big soccer fan and I don't even watch, so they may be fighting an uphill battle here.  They have to continue with a long-term plan, imo, and not get greedy or try to make things happen quickly. 
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For me, MLS viewership is an odd beast.  I remember back in 2008 in particular, during the Euros when I was living in an apartment with a friend of mine.  ESPN2, Thursday nights, MLS soccer....every Thursday.  It was appointment viewing in our apartment, didn't matter who was playing.  Yes there was soccer on TV otherwise....ESPN had the major international tournaments, Fox Soccer Channel had bits and pieces of the EPL, Serie A, Argentine league, Japanese league, Sky Sports.  But it was a lot harder to find a game on TV back then.

Now, I can flip on the TV at any time of the day and find a game.  And that's amazing - there is no better time than right now to be a soccer fan in the United States.  But over time, with the EPL saturation in particular, my interest in MLS has eroded.  I still watch MLS (hell I was watching NASL last night) because I'm a degenerate who'll watch any soccer to pass the time, but my interest in MLS is significantly less than before.  If I want to watch and absorb soccer, I don't need to watch MLS these days.  I can watch any EPL game, games from tons of other leagues, Men in Blazers, and a whole host of other soccer-related programming.  Whereas in the past if you wanted to watch the sport, you needed to plan to be around the TV during ESPN2's MLS games.

 
Doug B said:
I enjoy watching soccer ... but this is my single biggest beef with the game -- lack of comebacks.

Yes, yes ... it happens. Sure. But, say, a USMT going down 2-0 against a top-5 side (Brazil, Germany, etc.) has less than 0.1% chance of coming back to win (draws just don't seem to do it, though in group play they can obviously be important). Just an aspect of the sport, and it is what it is. But it does take a lot of juice out of some games.
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I think the opposite.  I mean, the comparison you're using there is basically like Kentucky going down 28-0 against Alabama in the 1st quarter.  They're not coming back either.

Really though, in a more even match even a "large" two goal lead can suddenly become a close game in about 5 seconds.  Just 1 goal and all of the sudden it's now a one score game and every time they get the ball they have a chance to tie it up, the crowd is back into it, etc.  In football it takes a large collection of plays over a relatively long period of time to get back into a game that was a blowout.

I was watching Liverpool/Arsenal to open this year's EPL season the other day and people were leaving the stadium when Liverpool took a 4-1 lead.  Not 5 minutes later (in real time, not just game time) it was 4-3 and the stadium was rocking and they were a couple of close shots away from tying the game up.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
I think the opposite.  I mean, the comparison you're using there is basically like Kentucky going down 28-0 against Alabama in the 1st quarter.  They're not coming back either.

Really though, in a more even match even a "large" two goal lead can suddenly become a close game in about 5 seconds.  Just 1 goal and all of the sudden it's now a one score game and every time they get the ball they have a chance to tie it up, the crowd is back into it, etc.  In football it takes a large collection of plays over a relatively long period of time to get back into a game that was a blowout.

I was watching Liverpool/Arsenal to open this year's EPL season the other day and people were leaving the stadium when Liverpool took a 4-1 lead.  Not 5 minutes later (in real time, not just game time) it was 4-3 and the stadium was rocking and they were a couple of close shots away from tying the game up but didn't because #### Arsenal.
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FreeBaGeL said:
Really though, in a more even match even a "large" two goal lead can suddenly become a close game in about 5 seconds.  Just 1 goal and all of the sudden it's now a one score game and every time they get the ball they have a chance to tie it up, the crowd is back into it, etc.
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This is arguably one of my favorite parts.  Nothing like the "GAME ON" moment :)

 
In fairness, it is pretty rare for 2 goal leads to be erased.  Not a perfect analogue, but a team leading by two goals at halftime wins the game over 9 out of 10 times.  Goals matter in soccer.  They change matches in a way that baskets and field goals and even sometimes touchdowns don't.  This doesn't bother me.  It's part of the anxiety that Z Machine describes because when Arsenal gives up an early goal it is far more excruciating than when the Skins give up a TD on the opening drive. 

 
NewlyRetired said:
Yesterday had some interesting conversations.  @Hawks64was bringing up some interesting points and was willing to listen and discuss.

Sadly we seem to be back to troll central today.  I guess there is no way around that with people who enjoy trolling.
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It was a good conversation, but trolls will troll.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
I was watching Liverpool/Arsenal to open this year's EPL season the other day and people were leaving the stadium when Liverpool took a 4-1 lead.  Not 5 minutes later (in real time, not just game time) it was 4-3 and the stadium was rocking and they were a couple of close shots away from tying the game up.
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OK, but two goals in 5 minutes is not something you can bank on probably happening. When it does happen, yeah, I fully agree that it is exciting and memorable.

More specifically -- I get tired of other national teams getting 1-0 leads on the USMT in World Cup play, and knowing they've got this massive edge. Be nice if the USMT would EVER control the ball in their side for 50+% of the game against an elite national squad. Will my grandkids ever live to see that?

(Yeah ... starting to see that this is a function of following Kentucky football in a world of Alabamas :D   But seriously ... I thought the USMT had made true strides over the past decade in international. Top 15 rankings and such. Still get spanked by better squads every time, though ... as opposed to being poised to deliver the upset once in a while. When does the USMT take down Brazil or France or Argentina [friendlies don't count] and not have it be considered some freakish "Miracle on Ice X 100" upset? :(  )

 
FreeBaGeL said:
I think the opposite.  I mean, the comparison you're using there is basically like Kentucky going down 28-0 against Alabama in the 1st quarter.  They're not coming back either.

Really though, in a more even match even a "large" two goal lead can suddenly become a close game in about 5 seconds.  Just 1 goal and all of the sudden it's now a one score game and every time they get the ball they have a chance to tie it up, the crowd is back into it, etc.  In football it takes a large collection of plays over a relatively long period of time to get back into a game that was a blowout.

I was watching Liverpool/Arsenal to open this year's EPL season the other day and people were leaving the stadium when Liverpool took a 4-1 lead.  Not 5 minutes later (in real time, not just game time) it was 4-3 and the stadium was rocking and they were a couple of close shots away from tying the game up.
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The team that scores first only loses 20% of the time.  With a 2-0 lead that percentage goes down to 2%.

In football a team up 14 points after the first quarter has a 12.5% chance of losing and at halftime they have a 7.1% change of losing.

Being down 2 goals in soccer is the same as being down 20 points at halftime in football in terms of winning.

 
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Doug B is drawing me off topic, but controlling the ball > 50% has absolutely no correlation to winning soccer games.  You don't get a correlation until you're at 65% or so. 

 
FreeBaGeL said:
I think the opposite.  I mean, the comparison you're using there is basically like Kentucky going down 28-0 against Alabama in the 1st quarter.  They're not coming back either.

Really though, in a more even match even a "large" two goal lead can suddenly become a close game in about 5 seconds.  Just 1 goal and all of the sudden it's now a one score game and every time they get the ball they have a chance to tie it up, the crowd is back into it, etc.  In football it takes a large collection of plays over a relatively long period of time to get back into a game that was a blowout.

I was watching Liverpool/Arsenal to open this year's EPL season the other day and people were leaving the stadium when Liverpool took a 4-1 lead.  Not 5 minutes later (in real time, not just game time) it was 4-3 and the stadium was rocking and they were a couple of close shots away from tying the game up.
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I like this, but c'mon, RHE...The Library was "rocking"?... like a chair, maybe...

 
@Steve Tasker please add Milwaukee Torrent to my spreadsheet profile 2016 NPSL Midwest Central Division Champions in their inaugural season. 6-0 record w/+28 gd

 
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