Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
Your wife has abandoned your marriage. She couldn't even be bothered to go through the motions with the therapist.
This sounds pretty awful, Bogart.
This sounds pretty awful, Bogart.
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Wife uses sex as a weapon (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Patrick Bateman
- Start date
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I have to agree.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Fight the good fight to clear your conscience bud. She appears to have checked out, but maybe just needs a few wakeup calls. These two weeks should be interesting. At least she is going to the sessions.
Tiny Dancer
Footballguy
Does posting in the FFA count as a hobby?
shadyridr
Footballguy
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
I'd be curious to hear what your examples are. Affection, to me, is a pretty specific thing. Mind sharing what your examples were?'Bogart said:
Shtaym Syek
Footballguy
I don't think anyone's arguing against it.
shadyridr
Footballguy
Bogart was
Bogart
Footballguy
Text messages throughout the day letting her know I am thinking of her, telling her I love her.Phone call every morning just to see how her day is going, again letting her know I am thinking about her.Call every evening on my way home, offering to stop at the store, get anything she needs. Offer to pick up dinner if I know she has had a bad day.She goes to bed early, I go in, ask her if she needs anything, give her a kiss. Then I normally go back to cleaning the kitchen.I get up with our kids every weekend morning, around 6:30 and let her sleep until 9:30 or 10:00.I get the 2 yo down every night which is the biggest chore we have right now.I know these things are flowers or chocolates, but it's what I try to do to make her feel special and important. It is obvious that she has taken these things as "nice and appreciates them", but does not see it as affection.
Shtaym Syek
Footballguy
Jesus.
Socrates11
Footballguy
shadyridr
Footballguy
The bolded are definitely showing affection (the last 2 arent IMO). I do these as well and my wife eats it up. Sorry to hear it but it definitely sounds like your wife has checked out of the marriage a while ago. I wouldnt be shocked to hear the "I still love him but Im not IN love with him" response at one of your sessions.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
It just sounds like she has some issues that have nothing to do with you Bogart. Especially since it sounds like this pattern occurred in her first marriage. Like does anything make her happy these days? The kids or her job or family or friends?
You are being a really big man. But I dont think anything you do is going to fix this. It sounds like she needs counseling more than you need marriage counseling.
Tough tough deal. I respect your approach 100%. Be there for the kids, man..which I know you are. Good luck.
You are being a really big man. But I dont think anything you do is going to fix this. It sounds like she needs counseling more than you need marriage counseling.
Tough tough deal. I respect your approach 100%. Be there for the kids, man..which I know you are. Good luck.
shadyridr
Footballguy
I dont think she takes it for granted. I just dont think she cares about the marriage and is using this "affection" BS to fill some time at the sessions.
JFT Ben
Footballguy
Sounds like some tough sledding for you Bogart, I've read the whole thread but was this a slow burn that finally hit the tipping point and is now coming to a head? Below is a play-by-play of a recent discussion in a similar vein.
As I've mentioned in the past, in my situation it's been really up and down as I attempt to improve myself and incorporate some of the methodology and thinking in the Married Man book. I would classify our marriage as a better one than what Bogart described as far as intimacy, but in the same neighborhood nonetheless. We had a frank discussion a few weeks ago, and after seeing little attempt at improvement from Mrs. JFT we had a blow-up a couple nights ago. Going against the passive approach and recommendation of just improving self and letting nature take it's coarse, I dropped a grenade that led to some yelling, hurt feelings and eventually to the heart of the matter.
I told her that that she has been emotionally shut down toward me for some time, that we were more roomates than a married couple (think a similar line was used in the movie Date Night and even by Bogart above, even though our sex life is somewhat tolerable) and that I wasn't happy with the situation and would not tolerate being in a mediocre marriage. I asked her if she felt the same way to which she responded that she simply wanted to "be madly in love". At that point I admitted that some of that was my fault (while not getting into it, I am more beta working towards alpha) and that I was working on some of that, but dropped the dopamine info on her as well (even going so far to show her the dopamine/oxytocin/testosterone info in Athol's book) to show her some of the reason why she feels that way. She asked if I wouldn't be happier with someone else to which I responded that given the choice of working these issues out with her, the mother of my children, or going with option B, there really wasn't much of a choice, but at some point a line has to be drawn if it's not working as a couple regardless of the rest of the situation. She seemed ok with that assessment.
Personally, I'm working on being patient and not being frustrated with the situation that is mostly out of my control but as one who wants order and control it's pretty hard for me. Our life has been stressful and dynamic as she started a new job about a month ago, her godfather just died (funeral was yesterday) and we're dealing with two young kids as we try and sell our house. I'm giving her some time and the benefit of the doubt as these things don't happen overnight, but honestly have no idea if she is taking any of this to heart (similar to what Bogart is feeling). From the library, I procured "The Sexually Confident Wife" by Shannon Ethridge, of which I skimmed some things and really looks like it may help if actually digested and internalized(deals with some of what we're dealing with such as lack of desire on woman's part, body image, etc - you can check out some of the early book pages on Amazon preview). It's been sitting on the dresser for a few days due to lack of time, but hopefully she'll get around to reading it as things calm over the weekend. We'll see how things go, but wanted to share.
As I've mentioned in the past, in my situation it's been really up and down as I attempt to improve myself and incorporate some of the methodology and thinking in the Married Man book. I would classify our marriage as a better one than what Bogart described as far as intimacy, but in the same neighborhood nonetheless. We had a frank discussion a few weeks ago, and after seeing little attempt at improvement from Mrs. JFT we had a blow-up a couple nights ago. Going against the passive approach and recommendation of just improving self and letting nature take it's coarse, I dropped a grenade that led to some yelling, hurt feelings and eventually to the heart of the matter.
I told her that that she has been emotionally shut down toward me for some time, that we were more roomates than a married couple (think a similar line was used in the movie Date Night and even by Bogart above, even though our sex life is somewhat tolerable) and that I wasn't happy with the situation and would not tolerate being in a mediocre marriage. I asked her if she felt the same way to which she responded that she simply wanted to "be madly in love". At that point I admitted that some of that was my fault (while not getting into it, I am more beta working towards alpha) and that I was working on some of that, but dropped the dopamine info on her as well (even going so far to show her the dopamine/oxytocin/testosterone info in Athol's book) to show her some of the reason why she feels that way. She asked if I wouldn't be happier with someone else to which I responded that given the choice of working these issues out with her, the mother of my children, or going with option B, there really wasn't much of a choice, but at some point a line has to be drawn if it's not working as a couple regardless of the rest of the situation. She seemed ok with that assessment.
Personally, I'm working on being patient and not being frustrated with the situation that is mostly out of my control but as one who wants order and control it's pretty hard for me. Our life has been stressful and dynamic as she started a new job about a month ago, her godfather just died (funeral was yesterday) and we're dealing with two young kids as we try and sell our house. I'm giving her some time and the benefit of the doubt as these things don't happen overnight, but honestly have no idea if she is taking any of this to heart (similar to what Bogart is feeling). From the library, I procured "The Sexually Confident Wife" by Shannon Ethridge, of which I skimmed some things and really looks like it may help if actually digested and internalized(deals with some of what we're dealing with such as lack of desire on woman's part, body image, etc - you can check out some of the early book pages on Amazon preview). It's been sitting on the dresser for a few days due to lack of time, but hopefully she'll get around to reading it as things calm over the weekend. We'll see how things go, but wanted to share.
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
You're probably right that Bogart's wife has checked out and it's just an excuse, and I also know everyone is different, but I know my wife wouldn't consider anything affection unless there's physical contact involved (ie, hug, kiss, etc).
culdeus
Footballguy
Bolded is most likely here. In a situation where you are under attack it is easy to latch on to something that is subjective like this and run with it till you can flee.
Divorce here if she keeps the kids is expensive in Texas. Looking at 24% garnishment for 16 years. As a 2x divorcee she'll have zero opportunities to remarry anyone worth anything so you could think about just walking and playing the field for awhile.
I do think the go to bed early thing is a tiny sign she's got a serious medical condition though. One that could pose major issues left alone with kids.
Bogart
Footballguy
I'm not against getting a hobby, and not against getting a hobby with my wife. I'm actually really for it. It just doesn't feel like the right path to what needs fixed. It feels like a cop-out, by the book solution.
dancingbones
Footballguy
Thanks Bogart for using this forum to help yourself work through this. I see a lot of similarities to how my wife was to me in our marriage. Marrying a depressed person is a bummer. You have a lot of extra stuff to deal with, and really none of it is in your control. It seems like you're really engaged in doing everything you can so you can either a) make this marriage work, or b) be OK with yourself when you choose to end it.
Either way, I see much brighter days in your future.
Either way, I see much brighter days in your future.
shadyridr
Footballguy
Except she had sex with you (and many other men).Thanks Bogart for using this forum to help yourself work through this. I see a lot of similarities to how my wife was to me in our marriage. Marrying a depressed person is a bummer. You have a lot of extra stuff to deal with, and really none of it is in your control. It seems like you're really engaged in doing everything you can so you can either a) make this marriage work, or b) be OK with yourself when you choose to end it.
Either way, I see much brighter days in your future.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
So, I'll say it. That list doesn't seem like a ton of affection to me. It's considerate, but not really affectionate. How about a foot rub, neck massage, hugs? Maybe she's not one to respond to physical affection, sounds like not, but there's got to be other stuff you can do that would be more affectionate. Maybe its just a cop out on her part, but regardless I think you need to get clarity from her on what she means when she says affection and start doing whatever that is. GL.
dancingbones
Footballguy
True enough, but before that time in our marriage (the last 3 years of a 12 year marriage), we went through a period of 5-6 years where we had sex mostly only to have our kids - and the decline of the frequency/desire set in really from the beginning.I'm sure there is a ton of stuff I could have done differently, but I'm very happy right now with the result of not having to accommodate and make room for a big ole' load of depression in my day to day life.Except she had sex with you (and many other men).Thanks Bogart for using this forum to help yourself work through this. I see a lot of similarities to how my wife was to me in our marriage. Marrying a depressed person is a bummer. You have a lot of extra stuff to deal with, and really none of it is in your control. It seems like you're really engaged in doing everything you can so you can either a) make this marriage work, or b) be OK with yourself when you choose to end it.
Either way, I see much brighter days in your future.
That, plus I'm 5 months into a new (monogamous) relationship with a smoking hot woman who I love & who I've been great friends with for over 16 years. Getting laid nearly every day is a good way to be living! :lightattheendofthetunnel:
Bogart
Footballguy
I actually agree, but when someone shuns all physical contact, thinking it all leads to sex, which she doesn't want, I am a bit handcuffed. I could shower her with gifts, flowers, etc, but that is only temporary, and only adds to the problem of not seeing eye to eye on financial things. When I did bring home flowers, it was given the same reaction of a nice handshake or pat on the back.
Bogart
Footballguy
Thanks, GB. I have to give all the credit to Patrick Bateman for starting the thread. It took me about 6 pages in to get the courage to throw my situation out there.It's been really therapeutic on my side, maybe pushes others in the same situation, and maybe entertains the 99% of the rest of the FFA who are married to supermodel nymphos.Thanks Bogart for using this forum to help yourself work through this. I see a lot of similarities to how my wife was to me in our marriage. Marrying a depressed person is a bummer. You have a lot of extra stuff to deal with, and really none of it is in your control. It seems like you're really engaged in doing everything you can so you can either a) make this marriage work, or b) be OK with yourself when you choose to end it. Either way, I see much brighter days in your future.
Clifford
Footballguy
+1 hereYour only shot to save this, if you still want to, IMO is this:1. Cancel the rest of the sessions. Tell your wife it's obvious that she isn't taking it seriously and doesn't take the marriage seriously either. You are not going to waste any more money on it until you see signs that she actually gives a #### about making things better.2. Stop asking for, talking about, or trying to initiate sex.3. Shift all interest to yourself (improving yourself in some way, exercise, education, whatever.) Only include your wife in whatever it is if she ASKS to be included.4. Cease all efforts to improve your marriage. 100%.I'm not advising this out of spite. I think it's actually the only thing that will get your wife to want you again. It's also probably the only way you can achieve a modicum of happiness other than separation/divorce.Oh, and one more thing: If the opportunity for strange comes around, take it and don't think twice. She has lost exclusive rights to your D.ETA: You're smothering her. Stop all the text messages, honey I love you talk. Seriously full-stop. If she asks why say that she indicated these things were not really important to her in the second session.Problem with all marriages is that both parties often completely neglect making the other partner want them. You got to play the game a bit here, if you still want her. Personally I'd have a hard time finding a reason to stay with this woman other than the kids, and if that's the case go out and there and have sex with some other women.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
The point is, quit guessing and ask her what affectionate things she'd like you to be doing. She either has answers, which you should then act on, or she doesn't in which case you've got more confirmation that she's just equivocating to avoid dealing with the reality of her lackluster performance in the relationship.
Bogart
Footballguy
I would not say she is in the best shape. We both could lose a few pounds, but she has been the same shape she is now for almost all of our time together. I have let her know over and over I find her beautiful and sexy (even said it yesterday in the session), she hasn't gained or lost a ton of weight during our time.I will admit that it would be very easy for her to cheat. I work an hour away from our house. She is five minutes. She can go home at lunch, leave early for the day, etc. Her cell phone is a company phone, so I don't see records. She runs everything through her work e-mail. That said, I don't think she is cheating, I just don't. Maybe I am naive about it, but I think she has been faithful.
Bogart and others, I see many similarities to my own life with same set of frustrations. Many of our issues are related to her physical condition, which offers an entirely different set of problems. Regardless, I'm soon to have a 'come to Jesus' discussion with my wife, and this thread has provided good insight that has pushed me along the way.Thanks, GB. I have to give all the credit to Patrick Bateman for starting the thread. It took me about 6 pages in to get the courage to throw my situation out there.It's been really therapeutic on my side, maybe pushes others in the same situation, and maybe entertains the 99% of the rest of the FFA who are married to supermodel nymphos.Thanks Bogart for using this forum to help yourself work through this. I see a lot of similarities to how my wife was to me in our marriage. Marrying a depressed person is a bummer. You have a lot of extra stuff to deal with, and really none of it is in your control. It seems like you're really engaged in doing everything you can so you can either a) make this marriage work, or b) be OK with yourself when you choose to end it. Either way, I see much brighter days in your future.
Tiny Dancer
Footballguy
Bogart
Footballguy
Best of luck with that. I keep having to tell people, regardless of the outcome you will be much happier than the lifeless rut you are in now.Bogart and others, I see many similarities to my own life with same set of frustrations. Many of our issues are related to her physical condition, which offers an entirely different set of problems. Regardless, I'm soon to have a 'come to Jesus' discussion with my wife, and this thread has provided good insight that has pushed me along the way.Thanks, GB. I have to give all the credit to Patrick Bateman for starting the thread. It took me about 6 pages in to get the courage to throw my situation out there.It's been really therapeutic on my side, maybe pushes others in the same situation, and maybe entertains the 99% of the rest of the FFA who are married to supermodel nymphos.Thanks Bogart for using this forum to help yourself work through this. I see a lot of similarities to how my wife was to me in our marriage. Marrying a depressed person is a bummer. You have a lot of extra stuff to deal with, and really none of it is in your control. It seems like you're really engaged in doing everything you can so you can either a) make this marriage work, or b) be OK with yourself when you choose to end it. Either way, I see much brighter days in your future.
Jutz
Footballguy
So gekko was right in the hedonism thread?
Walton Goggins
Footballguy
Good opportunity to request sex as your hobby
Walton Goggins
Footballguy
Agree. When she didn't even produce a list in therapy that spoke volumes
Walton Goggins
Footballguy
BigJim®
Footballguy
Based on your description, it sounds sort of BS that she said she wants affection when she's checked out. Likely she gave the 'right answer' to a therapist question when it's not something she needs or even wants in reality. I'm a little surprised the therapist didn't press her on the "I don't feel affection from those things" and ask her point blank what sort of affection she desires, what does she do or say in effort to get the affection she says she wants, etc. At least with that info you have things you can attempt. My guess is those things would be selfishly accepted with no change in her own behavior. Sounds like she basically got a pass on an ambiguous time-biding response.
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iamsmilin
I want one, but I'm not creative
Bogart,
I seriously think it's time to try shocking her out of the rut she put herself in. She's completely taken for granted that you are going to do everything for her. So my suggestion would be to stop calling and texting her during the day since they are only "nice" and it doesn't seem to matter. Stop waking up with the kids on the weekends and let her handle it. Once the kids are in bed at night, go out. Don't do anything stupid but go watch a movie, go to the gym, go have a beer. Do something for YOU. I wouldn't even tell her where I was going and just say, I'll be back by XXX.
I swear sometimes women need to just get a dose of what a bad husband is before they can/will appreciate a good one.
I seriously think it's time to try shocking her out of the rut she put herself in. She's completely taken for granted that you are going to do everything for her. So my suggestion would be to stop calling and texting her during the day since they are only "nice" and it doesn't seem to matter. Stop waking up with the kids on the weekends and let her handle it. Once the kids are in bed at night, go out. Don't do anything stupid but go watch a movie, go to the gym, go have a beer. Do something for YOU. I wouldn't even tell her where I was going and just say, I'll be back by XXX.
I swear sometimes women need to just get a dose of what a bad husband is before they can/will appreciate a good one.
commisholio
Come out with your pants down!
I agree 100%. She doesn't appreciate the nice things you do for her, so stop. Do what you need to do to make yourself happy.
Walton Goggins
Footballguy
Tiny Dancer
Footballguy
What makes you think she will "handle it" if he doesn't do these things? Seems likely to me that this plan would result in a sink full of dirty dishes and the kids watching 3 hours of TV every weekend morning.
Walton Goggins
Footballguy
She'll do it once she knows her servant no longer will.
Tiny Dancer
Footballguy
Maybe.
Socrates11
Footballguy
Doubtful. She is used to being lazy. She'll just leave the dishes and resent him for not doing them.
iamsmilin
I want one, but I'm not creative
TV isn't gonna hurt them and neither is a sink full of dishes. She'll probably think he's gonna revert back if she gives him time. It'll take a while for her to either 1. start picking up the slack, 2. start #####ing about it which is a GOOD thing in this case because it opens communication channels, 3. do nothing which just shows she is unwilling to change or 4. ask for a divorce.I just think Bogart needs to change the status quo in his marriage. It's not working.
iamsmilin
I want one, but I'm not creative
She already resents him for doing it.
Idiot Boxer
Footballguy
Don't put the kids in the middle. Do the things for the kids that you think the kids deserve. The dishes can pile up though.
Tiny Dancer
Footballguy
No doubt. I'm just skeptical that she'll actually pick up the slack. The person who will be most annoyed by your plan will be Bogart.
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