WR Marvin Harrison Jr., ARZ (2 Viewers)

[Ministry of Pain]

Disappointing rookie campaign after so much hype last year post-Draft, way overvalued in Redraft'24
I assume the hype train is coming for '25

 

[menobrown]

I assume the hype train is coming for '25

Not yet, maybe one of those off-season puff pieces will make him pick up a little steam but going in the WR 17-18 range in late third on average is what I'm seeing. That's still relatively high, but a drop of about 1.5 rounds from where he was going last year.

 

[JohnnyU]

Disappointing rookie campaign after so much hype last year post-Draft, way overvalued in Redraft'24
I assume the hype train is coming for '25

They need to quit trying to make him a deep threat only. They need to get the ball to him more on medium to shorter routes and sprinkle in the deep routes. I bet that would quickly showcase his talents better.

 

[(HULK)]

Considering tiering down from Jefferson to Harrison, if I can pick up a couple early picks. Guy with Harrison has 1.02 and 1.03. I don't think I'll be able to get both picks with Harrison unless I give more back.

My team has several studs (Lamar, Chase, Jefferson, Saquon)... but my depth is pretty crud. I spent last season constantly wheeling and dealing to close gaps caused by injury. I think a move like that might be very good for my team in the long run, but I'm also right in the middle of my contention window, so I'm not 100% sure it's the correct move. Would love thoughts/feedback. Thanks.

Is the Harrison owner a contender? You might be able to get him and one of the firsts if you include something decent. As the MH owner in one league, I wouldn’t give a first with him but I’m rebuilding.

He finished 10th place last season, but honestly he just needs some RBs to be a full on contender.

Do you have a RB to offer with JJ for Harrison and both firsts?

I could send Conner/Benson.

 

[efactor]

Disappointing rookie campaign after so much hype last year post-Draft, way overvalued in Redraft'24
I assume the hype train is coming for '25

They need to quit trying to make him a deep threat only. They need to get the ball to him more on medium to shorter routes and sprinkle in the deep routes. I bet that would quickly showcase his talents better.

Agree and I think they will in 2025. Kyler is dumb but hopefully not so dumb that an off season for the coaching staff to beat it into his head that peppering Harrison with targets will be a winning strategy will be sufficient.

 

[travdogg]

Disappointing rookie campaign after so much hype last year post-Draft, way overvalued in Redraft'24
I assume the hype train is coming for '25

Victim of expectations. Most years 885-8 (23% of the teams receiving yards, 38% of the receiving TDs) would be considered a solid start for a rookie WR. Didn't help that Nabers, Thomas, and McConkey all looked like #1s. I'm confident Harrison will get there, and I do wonder if he'll be slightly undervalued in a post-hype sleeper sort of way.

 

[osubuckeyeman]

He had a pretty good rookie season. I'm a bit older, though, and I remember when it took a wide receiver three years to break out. It matters where you land and what offense you play in.

People also worried about JSN after his rookie season, but that seemed to be due to opportunity. DK and Lockett soaked up targets, and JSN was not a real option for the offense.

Harrison did well but will do better with even more opportunities. At this point, the most important thing for me is understanding he has the tools to become a #1WR.

I can not see a fantasy manager giving up on him anytime soon. At this point, a discounted deal does not work. You are still paying a significant amount for his services in any format.

 

[menobrown]

There are a lot of excuses/reasons for his performance ranging from how he was utilized, being a rookie and tempering expectations and how those expectations were just to high to begin with.

I view those as all valid.

But it's hard to totally dismiss the lack of separation, that was alarmingly bad.

 

[ffmail4me]

There are a lot of excuses/reasons for his performance ranging from how he was utilized, being a rookie and tempering expectations and how those expectations were just to high to begin with.

I view those as all valid.

But it's hard to totally dismiss the lack of separation, that was alarmingly bad.

Separation is great, but it's not the end all. I know this past year they said Luke McCaffrey had as good as separation as any WR running routes, yet he barely did anything. I think Harrison's build, route running, hands, and work ethic is what is going to propel him to a very long and successful career like his daddy had.

 

[menobrown]

There are a lot of excuses/reasons for his performance ranging from how he was utilized, being a rookie and tempering expectations and how those expectations were just to high to begin with.

I view those as all valid.

But it's hard to totally dismiss the lack of separation, that was alarmingly bad.

Separation is great, but it's not the end all. I know this past year they said Luke McCaffrey had as good as separation as any WR running routes, yet he barely did anything. I think Harrison's build, route running, hands, and work ethic is what is going to propel him to a very long and successful career like his daddy had.

There is no such thing as one item being all encompassing. But there is nothing more important to me then being able to actually get open.

If you can't separate well you better be really good at contested catches or YAC ability to be able to turn some shorter throws into big gains. Making a career out of downfield catches when you can't get open very well is tough business to do consistently. Marvin ranked 85th in contested catch rate and was one of the worst WR's in the league in YAC per reception.

So if someone tells me they don't put a lot of emphasis on separtion I would tell them why I do and follow that up by asking what does the WR do well to make up for lack of separation, what other elite traits does he bring. Marvin did not actaully show any other elite or really overly good traits last year to make up for not being able to seperate.

IMO Luke McCaffrey example is odd in this context. Could have at least used example of other WR's who don't separate well who are good for fantasy.

Tee Higgins would be the best comp of a player I can find who does really well in fantasy despite not having a ton of seperation or YAC ability. That would have been a better example IMO of how you can succeed without separation. The key to Tee doing a lot better, other then QB, was he excelled in contested catches. Marvin should improve in this department, and hopefully can do a better job of separating, but what he actually was concerned me. He was Keon Colemanesque.

 

[standarsh]

In my PPR league, MHJ finished as the 43rd ranked WR in points per game played. He was near last among WR1s (I think the only team without a WR finishing higher than him was NE) and he was barely above the line where you start to see players not being on fantasy rosters at all.

There's obviously a lot of reasons for that, and not all are MHJ's fault, but we should call it what it was - a bad year from a fantasy perspective.

He certainly showed flashes and there's reason to maybe reach on him a little next year, but even thinking about him in the 15-20 range is probably optimistic. That would put him above guys like JSN, Wilson, McConkey, McLaurin, Addison, London, etc., etc. I'm mildly bullish on MHJ - I certainly don't think he's going to wash out of the league or anything - but if someone else in my league wants to reach for him at 15-20, they can be my guest.

 

[ffmail4me]

I am still very bullish on him breaking out this year but did just move him in one of my 12 team SF PPR Best Ball Dynasty Leagues

Gave: Harrison Jr, 3.5 and 4.5 picks
Got: 1.1 pick

I was loaded at WR in this league and needed RB help. Not sure if that was a slight overpay but happy with the end result

 

[kutta]

In a PPR best ball dynasty league where I am loaded at WR (Jefferson, Harrison, Nabers, Wilson, McLaurin, Aiyuk, Jauan Jennings, Bateman and more) I've offered him in trade to get a good RB and every offer has been rejected. I don't get it, kid has an extremely bright future...I think a lot of people are sleeping on him.

But with that WR corps you decided to offer him up instead of one of the others. Maybe you kind of don’t really believe in him either?

 

[ffmail4me]

In a PPR best ball dynasty league where I am loaded at WR (Jefferson, Harrison, Nabers, Wilson, McLaurin, Aiyuk, Jauan Jennings, Bateman and more) I've offered him in trade to get a good RB and every offer has been rejected. I don't get it, kid has an extremely bright future...I think a lot of people are sleeping on him.

But with that WR corps you decided to offer him up instead of one of the others. Maybe you kind of don’t really believe in him either?

No shame in preferring to move him before moving JJ, Nabers, and Wilson. And my other WRs wouldn’t have gotten it done (Aiyuk, McLaurin, Jennings, etc)

 

[Faust]

Marvin Harrison Jr.: I definitely put on some muscle this offseason

 

[pinkstapler]

Harmon and Koh touched on MHJ in a recent pod and talked on a few things with his rookie year; really pointing out it's a three pronged issue and really all three of the problems play off of eachother. This thread touched on his own issues quite a bit, namely with separation, ability to attack the ball at the catch point, attacking WRs at the break points of routes (especially down the field routes), and the fact he doesn't play super fast (kind of confirms why he may not have tested at the combine).

But much of that can tie back to how the coaching staff used him. In college he not only didn't have many issues with separating, but it was one of his strengths. And he was never some size/speed freak. So why the staff had him play almost all his snaps at X, and had him running as many 9s as they did is beyond me. It definitely contributes to some of the poor separation scores. He also had almost no "easy"/get the ball in his hands routes. He ran few slants, almost no digs, and Harmons sample size had him running only 1 screen. Terrible on the staff tbh.

And then the third issue; one which keeps me low on MHJ moving forward more than anything he's done, or even the coaching staff, and that's Murray (and can sprinkle the o-line in here). Murray does not throw enough between the numbers in the intermediate part of the field; and this is where a technician style WR like MHJ eats. The easiest guess to why is he's too short and doesn't have a line that gives him enough space and time to find guys there knowing it's not as easy for him. Can dig at other things on Murray here, like his penchant for pulling and running, or even just rolling outside and making those throws to the middle of the field that much more dangerous to make. But regardless, it's shown in his passing charts that he just doesn't work that part of the game like other QBs.

So the fact the Cardinals did little to nothing to improve the line, and also didn't add another receiving weapon, especially an X who could allow MHJ to move around the formation more as well as stop wasting him on running 9 clear out routes as much; leaves me feeling not great about his outlook for this year. He still did well for a rookie, and should be able to continue improving parts of his game; but he can't redesign the offensive scheme or make Murray grow 6 inches. Hopefully Arizona can do right for him sooner than later.

 

[Biabreakable]

Harmon and Koh touched on MHJ in a recent pod and talked on a few things with his rookie year; really pointing out it's a three pronged issue and really all three of the problems play off of eachother. This thread touched on his own issues quite a bit, namely with separation, ability to attack the ball at the catch point, attacking WRs at the break points of routes (especially down the field routes), and the fact he doesn't play super fast (kind of confirms why he may not have tested at the combine).

But much of that can tie back to how the coaching staff used him. In college he not only didn't have many issues with separating, but it was one of his strengths. And he was never some size/speed freak. So why the staff had him play almost all his snaps at X, and had him running as many 9s as they did is beyond me. It definitely contributes to some of the poor separation scores. He also had almost no "easy"/get the ball in his hands routes. He ran few slants, almost no digs, and Harmons sample size had him running only 1 screen. Terrible on the staff tbh.

And then the third issue; one which keeps me low on MHJ moving forward more than anything he's done, or even the coaching staff, and that's Murray (and can sprinkle the o-line in here). Murray does not throw enough between the numbers in the intermediate part of the field; and this is where a technician style WR like MHJ eats. The easiest guess to why is he's too short and doesn't have a line that gives him enough space and time to find guys there knowing it's not as easy for him. Can dig at other things on Murray here, like his penchant for pulling and running, or even just rolling outside and making those throws to the middle of the field that much more dangerous to make. But regardless, it's shown in his passing charts that he just doesn't work that part of the game like other QBs.

So the fact the Cardinals did little to nothing to improve the line, and also didn't add another receiving weapon, especially an X who could allow MHJ to move around the formation more as well as stop wasting him on running 9 clear out routes as much; leaves me feeling not great about his outlook for this year. He still did well for a rookie, and should be able to continue improving parts of his game; but he can't redesign the offensive scheme or make Murray grow 6 inches. Hopefully Arizona can do right for him sooner than later.

Murray should be in an offense designed off bootlegs and play action.

Do things to give him clear throwing lanes like Payton did with Brees.

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

Harmon and Koh touched on MHJ in a recent pod and talked on a few things with his rookie year; really pointing out it's a three pronged issue and really all three of the problems play off of eachother. This thread touched on his own issues quite a bit, namely with separation, ability to attack the ball at the catch point, attacking WRs at the break points of routes (especially down the field routes), and the fact he doesn't play super fast (kind of confirms why he may not have tested at the combine).

But much of that can tie back to how the coaching staff used him. In college he not only didn't have many issues with separating, but it was one of his strengths. And he was never some size/speed freak. So why the staff had him play almost all his snaps at X, and had him running as many 9s as they did is beyond me. It definitely contributes to some of the poor separation scores. He also had almost no "easy"/get the ball in his hands routes. He ran few slants, almost no digs, and Harmons sample size had him running only 1 screen. Terrible on the staff tbh.

And then the third issue; one which keeps me low on MHJ moving forward more than anything he's done, or even the coaching staff, and that's Murray (and can sprinkle the o-line in here). Murray does not throw enough between the numbers in the intermediate part of the field; and this is where a technician style WR like MHJ eats. The easiest guess to why is he's too short and doesn't have a line that gives him enough space and time to find guys there knowing it's not as easy for him. Can dig at other things on Murray here, like his penchant for pulling and running, or even just rolling outside and making those throws to the middle of the field that much more dangerous to make. But regardless, it's shown in his passing charts that he just doesn't work that part of the game like other QBs.

So the fact the Cardinals did little to nothing to improve the line, and also didn't add another receiving weapon, especially an X who could allow MHJ to move around the formation more as well as stop wasting him on running 9 clear out routes as much; leaves me feeling not great about his outlook for this year. He still did well for a rookie, and should be able to continue improving parts of his game; but he can't redesign the offensive scheme or make Murray grow 6 inches. Hopefully Arizona can do right for him sooner than later.

Murray should be in an offense designed off bootlegs and play action.

Do things to give him clear throwing lanes like Payton did with Brees.

Except Kyler will do Kyler things and turn the bootleg into an 8 yard rushing gain and (another) torn ACL.

 

[pinkstapler]

Harmon and Koh touched on MHJ in a recent pod and talked on a few things with his rookie year; really pointing out it's a three pronged issue and really all three of the problems play off of eachother. This thread touched on his own issues quite a bit, namely with separation, ability to attack the ball at the catch point, attacking WRs at the break points of routes (especially down the field routes), and the fact he doesn't play super fast (kind of confirms why he may not have tested at the combine).

But much of that can tie back to how the coaching staff used him. In college he not only didn't have many issues with separating, but it was one of his strengths. And he was never some size/speed freak. So why the staff had him play almost all his snaps at X, and had him running as many 9s as they did is beyond me. It definitely contributes to some of the poor separation scores. He also had almost no "easy"/get the ball in his hands routes. He ran few slants, almost no digs, and Harmons sample size had him running only 1 screen. Terrible on the staff tbh.

And then the third issue; one which keeps me low on MHJ moving forward more than anything he's done, or even the coaching staff, and that's Murray (and can sprinkle the o-line in here). Murray does not throw enough between the numbers in the intermediate part of the field; and this is where a technician style WR like MHJ eats. The easiest guess to why is he's too short and doesn't have a line that gives him enough space and time to find guys there knowing it's not as easy for him. Can dig at other things on Murray here, like his penchant for pulling and running, or even just rolling outside and making those throws to the middle of the field that much more dangerous to make. But regardless, it's shown in his passing charts that he just doesn't work that part of the game like other QBs.

So the fact the Cardinals did little to nothing to improve the line, and also didn't add another receiving weapon, especially an X who could allow MHJ to move around the formation more as well as stop wasting him on running 9 clear out routes as much; leaves me feeling not great about his outlook for this year. He still did well for a rookie, and should be able to continue improving parts of his game; but he can't redesign the offensive scheme or make Murray grow 6 inches. Hopefully Arizona can do right for him sooner than later.

Murray should be in an offense designed off bootlegs and play action.

Do things to give him clear throwing lanes like Payton did with Brees.

Except Kyler will do Kyler things and turn the bootleg into an 8 yard rushing gain and (another) torn ACL.

Agree with you both. Even an improved line could help give him a little more cushion and some better vision to the mid field. Saints did very well with that as well to help Brees find success as a shorter guy. But I do think we've seen what Kyler is at this point. Not sure that leopard is changing it's spots.

They have a relatively cheap out on him after the 2026 season. But Kyler feels kinda like Tua or some of these other QBs where it can be hard to walk away. They aren't everything you hoped/want them to be; but they are good enough where it can be very hard to walk away without an alternative answer waiting in the wings. Also good enough to where your team likely won't be in a great spot to take a serious swing at the position in the draft.

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

Harmon and Koh touched on MHJ in a recent pod and talked on a few things with his rookie year; really pointing out it's a three pronged issue and really all three of the problems play off of eachother. This thread touched on his own issues quite a bit, namely with separation, ability to attack the ball at the catch point, attacking WRs at the break points of routes (especially down the field routes), and the fact he doesn't play super fast (kind of confirms why he may not have tested at the combine).

But much of that can tie back to how the coaching staff used him. In college he not only didn't have many issues with separating, but it was one of his strengths. And he was never some size/speed freak. So why the staff had him play almost all his snaps at X, and had him running as many 9s as they did is beyond me. It definitely contributes to some of the poor separation scores. He also had almost no "easy"/get the ball in his hands routes. He ran few slants, almost no digs, and Harmons sample size had him running only 1 screen. Terrible on the staff tbh.

And then the third issue; one which keeps me low on MHJ moving forward more than anything he's done, or even the coaching staff, and that's Murray (and can sprinkle the o-line in here). Murray does not throw enough between the numbers in the intermediate part of the field; and this is where a technician style WR like MHJ eats. The easiest guess to why is he's too short and doesn't have a line that gives him enough space and time to find guys there knowing it's not as easy for him. Can dig at other things on Murray here, like his penchant for pulling and running, or even just rolling outside and making those throws to the middle of the field that much more dangerous to make. But regardless, it's shown in his passing charts that he just doesn't work that part of the game like other QBs.

So the fact the Cardinals did little to nothing to improve the line, and also didn't add another receiving weapon, especially an X who could allow MHJ to move around the formation more as well as stop wasting him on running 9 clear out routes as much; leaves me feeling not great about his outlook for this year. He still did well for a rookie, and should be able to continue improving parts of his game; but he can't redesign the offensive scheme or make Murray grow 6 inches. Hopefully Arizona can do right for him sooner than later.

Murray should be in an offense designed off bootlegs and play action.

Do things to give him clear throwing lanes like Payton did with Brees.

Except Kyler will do Kyler things and turn the bootleg into an 8 yard rushing gain and (another) torn ACL.

Agree with you both. Even an improved line could help give him a little more cushion and some better vision to the mid field. Saints did very well with that as well to help Brees find success as a shorter guy. But I do think we've seen what Kyler is at this point. Not sure that leopard is changing it's spots.

They have a relatively cheap out on him after the 2026 season. But Kyler feels kinda like Tua or some of these other QBs where it can be hard to walk away. They aren't everything you hoped/want them to be; but they are good enough where it can be very hard to walk away without an alternative answer waiting in the wings. Also good enough to where your team likely won't be in a great spot to take a serious swing at the position in the draft.

That's always the rub with these QB15-20 guys. Any worse than that and they are bound to be replaced. But finding a replacement in the draft past pick 10 is a serious challenge. Then you have to manage the ego of BOTH a 1st round pick QB and a mediocre vet QB. It's a tough call. I do agree that the coaching staffs really need to be better at tailoring an offense with their specific QB in mind, but too often THEIR egos get in the way.

 

[Faust]

Marvin Harrison Jr. emphasizing body, Cards' success in Year 2

 

[Faust]

Ari Meirov
#Cardinals GM Monti Ossenfort on WR Marvin Harrison Jr.: "I don't know if there was a day this offseason that he wasn't in our building, training and getting better — and it's shown in his body. ... He's well on his way."

Full episode with Ossenfort: youtube.com/watch?v=IGrTuH…

https://x.com/mysportsupdate/status/1935034418818605177?s=61

 

[Faust]

PHNX Cardinals
The great @franksanders81 is all in on Marvin Harrison Jr.‘s physical transformation.

https://x.com/phnx_cardinals/status/1935167547231584371?s=61

 

[Faust]

@PFF_Fantasy
Marvin Harrison Jr. over Garrett Wilson and JSN in dynasty?

Our analysts are taking MHJ

https://x.com/pff_fantasy/status/1935401013315518527?s=61

 

[Faust]

Kyler Murray, Cardinals praise Marvin Harrison Jr.'s growth

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

PHNX Cardinals
The great @franksanders81 is all in on Marvin Harrison Jr.‘s physical transformation.

https://x.com/phnx_cardinals/status/1935167547231584371?s=61

@Hot Sauce Guy , does this count as "best shape of his life talk"??

 

[TVT 0 N S T A]

Where we at with this guy?

It really seems like the fantasy community has soured over the greatest prospect since J. Chase and it truly is a reminder of how fickle this sport/hobby can be.

Target competition: Michael Wilson, Simi Fehoko, Zay Jones... Trey McBride, sure but... is there a reason we can't start prospecting 30% target share for Michael Wilson already? Just kidding...

I believe Harrison could see 30% of targets for this offense. With the offenses current passing production that would put MHJr at 162 targets. If his reception % stays the same at 52% (woof. Any locals care to weigh in?)... that puts him at 84 catches @ 14.3 yards/r is 1201 yards for the season with 7 TDs is 246 FFPS. Ok.

Kyler Murray projections look like 300 fantasy points with 552 attempts (more than I just projected for the offense based on last year). Murray is looking around 3800 yards of passing with 25 passing TDs.

Really, not a lot has to happen for Harrison to return on ADP... JSN and Wilson are ranked ahead of him and I think he could easily be better than they are... are we undervaluing him?

Also, where does he sit for trade value in Dynasty? Would the Harrison owner have to add to the trade for Nabers? BTJ? Ladd McConkey? It just seems we have been incredibly quiet about him but he could easily be a top 10 WR.

 

[msudaisy26]

Where we at with this guy?

It really seems like the fantasy community has soured over the greatest prospect since J. Chase and it truly is a reminder of how fickle this sport/hobby can be.

Target competition: Michael Wilson, Simi Fehoko, Zay Jones... Trey McBride, sure but... is there a reason we can't start prospecting 30% target share for Michael Wilson already? Just kidding...

I believe Harrison could see 30% of targets for this offense. With the offenses current passing production that would put MHJr at 162 targets. If his reception % stays the same at 52% (woof. Any locals care to weigh in?)... that puts him at 84 catches @ 14.3 yards/r is 1201 yards for the season with 7 TDs is 246 FFPS. Ok.

Kyler Murray projections look like 300 fantasy points with 552 attempts (more than I just projected for the offense based on last year). Murray is looking around 3800 yards of passing with 25 passing TDs.

Really, not a lot has to happen for Harrison to return on ADP... JSN and Wilson are ranked ahead of him and I think he could easily be better than they are... are we undervaluing him?

Also, where does he sit for trade value in Dynasty? Would the Harrison owner have to add to the trade for Nabers? BTJ? Ladd McConkey? It just seems we have been incredibly quiet about him but he could easily be a top 10 WR.

Shhhh! I love drafting him at the end of the 3rd or early 4th as my second or third wr.

 

[TVT 0 N S T A]

Where we at with this guy?

It really seems like the fantasy community has soured over the greatest prospect since J. Chase and it truly is a reminder of how fickle this sport/hobby can be.

Target competition: Michael Wilson, Simi Fehoko, Zay Jones... Trey McBride, sure but... is there a reason we can't start prospecting 30% target share for Michael Wilson already? Just kidding...

I believe Harrison could see 30% of targets for this offense. With the offenses current passing production that would put MHJr at 162 targets. If his reception % stays the same at 52% (woof. Any locals care to weigh in?)... that puts him at 84 catches @ 14.3 yards/r is 1201 yards for the season with 7 TDs is 246 FFPS. Ok.

Kyler Murray projections look like 300 fantasy points with 552 attempts (more than I just projected for the offense based on last year). Murray is looking around 3800 yards of passing with 25 passing TDs.

Really, not a lot has to happen for Harrison to return on ADP... JSN and Wilson are ranked ahead of him and I think he could easily be better than they are... are we undervaluing him?

Also, where does he sit for trade value in Dynasty? Would the Harrison owner have to add to the trade for Nabers? BTJ? Ladd McConkey? It just seems we have been incredibly quiet about him but he could easily be a top 10 WR.

Shhhh! I love drafting him at the end of the 3rd or early 4th as my second or third wr.

Years ago, we would have been all over this guy as a breakout to return beyond ADP but we aren't. He has the pedigree, early college production, and his only knock is Kyler Murray who is ranked as a top 15 QB in fantasy.

Even if target share stays the same and MHJr just catches more of his passes... he outperforms ADP. If Targets increase and he increases his reception percentage to 60-70% receptions.. his floor is 100 balls w/ 1400 yards and 7 TDs... 280+ fantasy points.

Just started doing a deep dive on my keeper league and was originally considering Worthy over MHjr (due to cost) but thought... even with the cost, worth the potential WR1 finish.

250-280 PPR Fantasy Points is not a stretch and increasing his YPC or reception percentage beyond 60% gets him pretty close to 300 Fantasy Points this season.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

PHNX Cardinals
The great @franksanders81 is all in on Marvin Harrison Jr.‘s physical transformation.

https://x.com/phnx_cardinals/status/1935167547231584371?s=61

@Hot Sauce Guy , does this count as "best shape of his life talk"??

1000%

The growth that matters more for MH2 is Murray’s ability to stay in the pocket and find his receivers instead of taking off running at the drop of a hat.

Otherwise I’m not sure it’ll matter.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

and his only knock is Kyler Murray who is ranked as a top 15 QB in fantasy.

He had other knocks. Matt Waldman has been low on him for a while now - dating back to pre-NFL draft.

Most recently calls out MH2s challenges at catch point and tracking.

 

[TVT 0 N S T A]

and his only knock is Kyler Murray who is ranked as a top 15 QB in fantasy.

He had other knocks. Matt Waldman has been low on him for a while now - dating back to pre-NFL draft.

Most recently calls out MH2s challenges at catch point and tracking.

I am fresh off a Marvin Harrison deep dive and his tracking could be the issue but I think it is explosiveness out of his break. He had some catches that were incredible on the boundary, which made me believe it's not tracking.

The explosiveness or timing of where to be when you break off your route can be fixed with reps. I don't see anything in video to justify not taking him as WR 20 and I still believe he can finish top 10.
535 targets in an offense with McBride as the only competition seems like a value.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

535 targets in an offense with McBride as the only competition seems like a value.

Not saying it’s not. But at ADP you’re still drafting him for where he might be, not what he’s shown. There are some risks.

 

[travdogg]

and his only knock is Kyler Murray who is ranked as a top 15 QB in fantasy.

He had other knocks. Matt Waldman has been low on him for a while now - dating back to pre-NFL draft.

Most recently calls out MH2s challenges at catch point and tracking.

I am fresh off a Marvin Harrison deep dive and his tracking could be the issue but I think it is explosiveness out of his break. He had some catches that were incredible on the boundary, which made me believe it's not tracking.

The explosiveness or timing of where to be when you break off your route can be fixed with reps. I don't see anything in video to justify not taking him as WR 20 and I still believe he can finish top 10.
535 targets in an offense with McBride as the only competition seems like a value.

In my eyes his biggest issue is McBride is running all the easy button routes. Personally, I think they'd be wise to run Harrison more horizontally (see his 22-yard crosser TD against Miami) and use McBride more as a vertical seam stretcher (think how SF uses Kittle) if they wanted to get the most out of both guys. I think OC Drew Petzing is a bad OC and probably should have been fired. The offense isn't run for the personnel in my opinion, other than maybe Conner. They should also have Murray out of the pocket a lot more than he is, especially in the redzone, where the limited space makes his height more of an issue.

Now, Harrison is still the guy who was an ELITE prospect coming out, but due to Nabers, Thomas, McConkey, I think he's being looked at as more of a disappointment than he should be. He had a good rookie year. He has a solid QB, a solid enough OL, and only McBride as target competition, so we could absolutely look back in December, and wonder why Harrison wasn't a universal top-10 guy. But if nothing changes about the offense, its hard to get too optimistic unless Harrison just starts consistently winning these sideline 50-50 balls, which its entirely possible he might, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable with him as a high-end WR2 if he were used differently/better.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Seems slow. Needs better technique to open up some space for him, and last years game plan was idiotic given the draft capital, they didn't play to his strengths.

 

[efactor]

and his only knock is Kyler Murray who is ranked as a top 15 QB in fantasy.

He had other knocks. Matt Waldman has been low on him for a while now - dating back to pre-NFL draft.

Most recently calls out MH2s challenges at catch point and tracking.

I stopped listening to Waldman a few years back. Guy is wrong more than he is right it seems. Plus annoying to listen to on a podcast. Sounds like he stoned every time I hear him when he pops up is a guest on various shows.

Sure, sometimes he is right, but so is everyone who plays serious FF.

Haven’t done a redraft yet but hoping Harrison is still going around the 3-4 turn still in late August. Should be great value this year. Sounds like AZ knows they misused him last year.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I stopped listening to Waldman a few years back. Guy is wrong more than he is right it seems. Plus annoying to listen to on a podcast. Sounds like he stoned every time I hear him when he pops up is a guest on various shows.

Waldman is the reason I drafted Puka in 2 leagues in the 4th/5th rounds, respectively.

To be clear, are you saying you dispute his observations about MH2?

 

[efactor]

I stopped listening to Waldman a few years back. Guy is wrong more than he is right it seems. Plus annoying to listen to on a podcast. Sounds like he stoned every time I hear him when he pops up is a guest on various shows.

Waldman is the reason I drafted Puka in 2 leagues in the 4th/5th rounds, respectively.

To be clear, are you saying you dispute his observations about MH2?

What part of “I stopped listening to him a few years back” is unclear?

I drafted Puka in my lone dynasty (at the time) without any help from him. Took a shot and it hit. I did listen to him on Trey Sermon though before I cut him off. YAY!

If you like his analysis and that works for you, great. I don’t and that works for me.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I stopped listening to Waldman a few years back. Guy is wrong more than he is right it seems. Plus annoying to listen to on a podcast. Sounds like he stoned every time I hear him when he pops up is a guest on various shows.

Waldman is the reason I drafted Puka in 2 leagues in the 4th/5th rounds, respectively.

To be clear, are you saying you dispute his observations about MH2?

What part of “I stopped listening to him a few years back” is unclear?

I drafted Puka in my lone dynasty (at the time) without any help from him. Took a shot and it hit. I did listen to him on Trey Sermon though before I cut him off. YAY!

If you like his analysis and that works for you, great. I don’t and that works for me.

Right, that part wasn’t unclear at all. But you said that in response to me quoting Waldman on the MH2 topic.

So you’re either just randomly bashing him or you disagree with the substance of what I quoted.

Just checking to see which it is.

 

[efactor]

I stopped listening to Waldman a few years back. Guy is wrong more than he is right it seems. Plus annoying to listen to on a podcast. Sounds like he stoned every time I hear him when he pops up is a guest on various shows.

Waldman is the reason I drafted Puka in 2 leagues in the 4th/5th rounds, respectively.

To be clear, are you saying you dispute his observations about MH2?

What part of “I stopped listening to him a few years back” is unclear?

I drafted Puka in my lone dynasty (at the time) without any help from him. Took a shot and it hit. I did listen to him on Trey Sermon though before I cut him off. YAY!

If you like his analysis and that works for you, great. I don’t and that works for me.

Right, that part wasn’t unclear at all. But you said that in response to me quoting Waldman on the MH2 topic.

So you’re either just randomly bashing him or you disagree with the substance of what I quoted.

Just checking to see which it is.

Well, my point is that Waldman isn’t the end all be all of analysis. Your post was vague on his criticisms of Harrison which were “catch point and tracking”. Watching MHJ play last season was difficult to judge because of the lack of variance in his usage. I think that changes this year and expect to see him moved around and given more short routes which will produce better FF numbers.

Buy hey, if you think Matt is the man, then by all means, follow his advice.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Your post was vague on his criticisms of Harrison which were “catch point and tracking”

Vague? That’s actually extremely specific.

Those are Waldman’s 2 clearly articulated criticisms (he also suggested that MH Sr also suffered from these issues, but had uncanny knack for overcoming them).

Buy hey, if you think Matt is the man, then by all means, follow his advice.

I believe he’s a good analyst, and often catches things on film that other analysts don’t, but I don’t know if I “think Matt is the man”.

Just sharing his criticism of MH2’s game. Seemed like it added something to the topic. Not sure why you’re trying to make this personal. It’s not about me at all - it’s about MH2, and one FBG analyst’s observations.

 

[efactor]

Your post was vague on his criticisms of Harrison which were “catch point and tracking”

Vague? That’s actually extremely specific.

Those are Waldman’s 2 clearly articulated criticisms (he also suggested that MH Sr also suffered from these issues, but had uncanny knack for overcoming them).

Buy hey, if you think Matt is the man, then by all means, follow his advice.

I believe he’s a good analyst, and often catches things on film that other analysts don’t, but I don’t know if I “think Matt is the man”.

Just sharing his criticism of MH2’s game. Seemed like it added something to the topic. Not sure why you’re trying to make this personal. It’s not about me at all - it’s about MH2, and one FBG analyst’s observations.

Not personal at all. Again, just pointing out that Waldman is wrong a lot. I have nothing against him personally lol

Harrison didn’t have a bad rookie season, but because there were so many outstanding rookie WR performances, he got ragged on. He was being over drafted last season (1-2 turn area) so he was a disappointment. Think he will be a great value where he is going this year (so far anyway). The AZ coaching staff and Kyler have commented on how they didn’t use him correctly last year.

 

[darksideofoz]

Your post was vague on his criticisms of Harrison which were “catch point and tracking”

Vague? That’s actually extremely specific.

Those are Waldman’s 2 clearly articulated criticisms (he also suggested that MH Sr also suffered from these issues, but had uncanny knack for overcoming them).

Buy hey, if you think Matt is the man, then by all means, follow his advice.

I believe he’s a good analyst, and often catches things on film that other analysts don’t, but I don’t know if I “think Matt is the man”.

Just sharing his criticism of MH2’s game. Seemed like it added something to the topic. Not sure why you’re trying to make this personal. It’s not about me at all - it’s about MH2, and one FBG analyst’s observations.

it is obviously a very personal issue with him. voice shaming as part of the reasoning to stop reading his analysis?

I always say Waldman sounds like a more intelligent Jeremy Piven. Take that as you like, but it is intended neither positive or negative, just my way of trying to explain how his voice sounds to me.

to get it back to the topic, I am down on MH2 because of his price point. same as last year. his 1st year was OK, but not for the cost. his cost hasn't dropped enough for me to consider him in any format. Hoping he turns it on this year to get his cost to make more sense to me.

 

[efactor]

Your post was vague on his criticisms of Harrison which were “catch point and tracking”

Vague? That’s actually extremely specific.

Those are Waldman’s 2 clearly articulated criticisms (he also suggested that MH Sr also suffered from these issues, but had uncanny knack for overcoming them).

Buy hey, if you think Matt is the man, then by all means, follow his advice.

I believe he’s a good analyst, and often catches things on film that other analysts don’t, but I don’t know if I “think Matt is the man”.

Just sharing his criticism of MH2’s game. Seemed like it added something to the topic. Not sure why you’re trying to make this personal. It’s not about me at all - it’s about MH2, and one FBG analyst’s observations.

it is obviously a very personal issue with him. voice shaming as part of the reasoning to stop reading his analysis?

Have you been drinking your breakfast? Put the vodka bottle down.

I said his voice is annoying to me. Has nothing to do with his analysis.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Have you been drinking your breakfast? Put the vodka bottle down.

I said his voice is annoying to me. Has nothing to do with his analysis.

It’s noon somewhere?

Actually no, I was up at 4 for my Sunday market as usual. A bloody marry sounds delightful though.

All good - carry on.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

to get it back to the topic, I am down on MH2 because of his price point. same as last year. his 1st year was OK, but not for the cost. his cost hasn't dropped enough for me to consider him in any format. Hoping he turns it on this year to get his cost to make more sense to me.

I’m with you on this. I commented up-thread that you have to draft him at a price as though he’s achieved the things people are projecting for him. I think he’s around the WR10 on most sites. Drafting at his ceiling.

ADP currently 36 overall (28 in dynasty SF start-up)

Too many proven players on the board for me to gamble like that. Maybe in redraft where I might take the chance for a ceiling play, but it’s a bit rich for my blood for an early pick. I’ll probably let someone else gamble.

 

[TVT 0 N S T A]

Your post was vague on his criticisms of Harrison which were “catch point and tracking”

Vague? That’s actually extremely specific.

Those are Waldman’s 2 clearly articulated criticisms (he also suggested that MH Sr also suffered from these issues, but had uncanny knack for overcoming them).

Buy hey, if you think Matt is the man, then by all means, follow his advice.

I believe he’s a good analyst, and often catches things on film that other analysts don’t, but I don’t know if I “think Matt is the man”.

Just sharing his criticism of MH2’s game. Seemed like it added something to the topic. Not sure why you’re trying to make this personal. It’s not about me at all - it’s about MH2, and one FBG analyst’s observations.

it is obviously a very personal issue with him. voice shaming as part of the reasoning to stop reading his analysis?

I always say Waldman sounds like a more intelligent Jeremy Piven. Take that as you like, but it is intended neither positive or negative, just my way of trying to explain how his voice sounds to me.

to get it back to the topic, I am down on MH2 because of his price point. same as last year. his 1st year was OK, but not for the cost. his cost hasn't dropped enough for me to consider him in any format. Hoping he turns it on this year to get his cost to make more sense to me.

At the 3-4 turn you're getting a WR who has the easiest path to 280 fantasy points (in my opinion).

- Blue Chip Prospect w/ high draft capital
- Not much for target competition
- Capable QB?

If McBride gets his 150 targets and Harrison gets 160 there are still 220-ish targets to go around. It seems very possible. 280 fantasy points puts him in range for a top 6 WR finish and you're getting him pick 30-40?

He could crack the top 10 and maybe top 5. We arent still drafting low floor high ceiling guys?

If Arizona could get Kyler on some designed bootlegs toward Harrison's side, which it sounds like they agree they need to target/scheme Harrison more... could be a big payout.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Your post was vague on his criticisms of Harrison which were “catch point and tracking”

Vague? That’s actually extremely specific.

Those are Waldman’s 2 clearly articulated criticisms (he also suggested that MH Sr also suffered from these issues, but had uncanny knack for overcoming them).

Buy hey, if you think Matt is the man, then by all means, follow his advice.

I believe he’s a good analyst, and often catches things on film that other analysts don’t, but I don’t know if I “think Matt is the man”.

Just sharing his criticism of MH2’s game. Seemed like it added something to the topic. Not sure why you’re trying to make this personal. It’s not about me at all - it’s about MH2, and one FBG analyst’s observations.

it is obviously a very personal issue with him. voice shaming as part of the reasoning to stop reading his analysis?

I always say Waldman sounds like a more intelligent Jeremy Piven. Take that as you like, but it is intended neither positive or negative, just my way of trying to explain how his voice sounds to me.

to get it back to the topic, I am down on MH2 because of his price point. same as last year. his 1st year was OK, but not for the cost. his cost hasn't dropped enough for me to consider him in any format. Hoping he turns it on this year to get his cost to make more sense to me.

At the 3-4 turn you're getting a WR who has the easiest path to 280 fantasy points (in my opinion).

- Blue Chip Prospect w/ high draft capital
- Not much for target competition
- Capable QB?

If McBride gets his 150 targets and Harrison gets 160 there are still 220-ish targets to go around. It seems very possible. 280 fantasy points puts him in range for a top 6 WR finish and you're getting him pick 30-40?

He could crack the top 10 and maybe top 5. We arent still drafting low floor high ceiling guys?

If Arizona could get Kyler on some designed bootlegs toward Harrison's side, which it sounds like they agree they need to target/scheme Harrison more... could be a big payout.

All of this is possible.

It’s also possible that Kyler continues to focus his development on call of duty rather than on improving his QB play.

If he continues to be a 1-look and run QB, that’ll hurt all the receivers on the Cards.

If it was just MH2’s floor/ceiling I was concerned about I could bite my tongue and take him. But I’m not very high on Murray. Maybe that’s a me issue, and you’re absolutely right that MH2 is a low floor/high ceiling play.

My concern is that often the low floor high ceiling types come a bit cheaper than 36th overall.

He could definitely pay off at that price. I’m not dismissing that potential at all.

 

[efactor]

Have you been drinking your breakfast? Put the vodka bottle down.

I said his voice is annoying to me. Has nothing to do with his analysis.

It’s noon somewhere?

Actually no, I was up at 4 for my Sunday market as usual. A bloody marry sounds delightful though.

All good - carry on.

Ha. Always a good time for a bloody Mary

I was actually referring to the other poster about this drinking habits though.

Hopefully sales were brisk. I am almost out of the "Heats a peach" so will be reordering very soon. I bought 4 bottles last time so it lasts a while.

 

[kface]

Your post was vague on his criticisms of Harrison which were “catch point and tracking”

Vague? That’s actually extremely specific.

Those are Waldman’s 2 clearly articulated criticisms (he also suggested that MH Sr also suffered from these issues, but had uncanny knack for overcoming them).

Buy hey, if you think Matt is the man, then by all means, follow his advice.

I believe he’s a good analyst, and often catches things on film that other analysts don’t, but I don’t know if I “think Matt is the man”.

Just sharing his criticism of MH2’s game. Seemed like it added something to the topic. Not sure why you’re trying to make this personal. It’s not about me at all - it’s about MH2, and one FBG analyst’s observations.

it is obviously a very personal issue with him. voice shaming as part of the reasoning to stop reading his analysis?

I always say Waldman sounds like a more intelligent Jeremy Piven. Take that as you like, but it is intended neither positive or negative, just my way of trying to explain how his voice sounds to me.

to get it back to the topic, I am down on MH2 because of his price point. same as last year. his 1st year was OK, but not for the cost. his cost hasn't dropped enough for me to consider him in any format. Hoping he turns it on this year to get his cost to make more sense to me.

At the 3-4 turn you're getting a WR who has the easiest path to 280 fantasy points (in my opinion).

- Blue Chip Prospect w/ high draft capital
- Not much for target competition
- Capable QB?

If McBride gets his 150 targets and Harrison gets 160 there are still 220-ish targets to go around. It seems very possible. 280 fantasy points puts him in range for a top 6 WR finish and you're getting him pick 30-40?

He could crack the top 10 and maybe top 5. We arent still drafting low floor high ceiling guys?

If Arizona could get Kyler on some designed bootlegs toward Harrison's side, which it sounds like they agree they need to target/scheme Harrison more... could be a big payout.

All of this is possible.

It’s also possible that Kyler continues to focus his development on call of duty rather than on improving his QB play.

If he continues to be a 1-look and run QB, that’ll hurt all the receivers on the Cards.

If it was just MH2’s floor/ceiling I was concerned about I could bite my tongue and take him. But I’m not very high on Murray. Maybe that’s a me issue, and you’re absolutely right that MH2 is a low floor/high ceiling play.

My concern is that often the low floor high ceiling types come a bit cheaper than 36th overall.

He could definitely pay off at that price. I’m not dismissing that potential at all.

I side with you here. Someone will take him and maybe hit the jackpot but I don't see much changing with Kyler. I honestly think he is entering his last seasons with Az. He can't see the field. He has no comfort in the pocket and honestly makes a lot of bone head decisions. I don't see that changing and i think that really hurts MHJ