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YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE SUSPENDED! (6 Viewers)

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Be honest, some of you have verbally said “Ha!  Got ‘em!” to no one after hitting submit...it’s the truth, I know it, it’s the only way these sort of interactions continue to occur 

 
KCitons said:
Only solution......shave your head. (that's what I did)

What's the equivalent of shaving your head here?  :unsure:
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Paul Mitchell Tea Tree scalp treatment in the dry winter months...ywia

(that wasn’t an answer to the equivalent question, just my Christmas gift to all bald guys)

 
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OrtonToOlsen said:
[And as Garry Kasparov observes for us, “The point of modern propaganda isn’t only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.” ]

Perfect
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It is neat that in the day when people have found the leftist media unpalatable and untrue, the media has focused on cranks and crackpots for their own comeuppance, and asserted, once again, that theirs is the mantle of truth. That we know is false. It is not mutually exclusive to call two things untrue. In fact, it easy. 

And thus I will. 

The media has lied from the left since the 20th Century. To have done so is not surprising, Nietzsche predicted this. But mass media was the first to adopt its lies as the only truth, and thus, there is nothing new about this "truthy" phenomenon, and some chess player isn't going to change my mind about when it began. The mass media has taken it upon themselves to be the arbiter of their lyring screeds and are responsible for having the only recourse of those dispossessed of truth that truth be obliterated. I keep thinking of Walter Duranty and the "fact-checkers" at the "paper" of record.

It's all been bull#### since WWI, be it corporate PR or media propaganda. At least alternative truth will die quickly at the hands of less organization, and we can get back to our only savior, biased and pluralistic media or those benevolent ones that see how important non-partisan truth actually is and then act on.

 
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I'm going to be handing out many suspensions (because there are so many suspension-worthy posts that just won't stop coming), but I'm going to make them a day or two instead of a week. I won't be giving warnings. The shorter suspensions will be the warnings.

 
rockaction said:
It is neat that in the day when people have found the leftist media unpalatable and untrue, the media has focused on cranks and crackpots for their own comeuppance, and asserted, once again, that theirs is the mantle of truth. That we know is false. It is not mutually exclusive to call two things untrue. In fact, it easy. 

And thus I will. 

The media has lied from the left since the 20th Century. To have done so is not surprising, Nietzsche predicted this. But mass media was the first to adopt its lies as the only truth, and thus, there is nothing new about this "truthy" phenomenon, and some chess player isn't going to change my mind about when it began. The mass media has taken it upon themselves to be the arbiter of their lyring screeds and are responsible for having the only recourse of those dispossessed of truth that truth be obliterated. I keep thinking of Walter Duranty and the "fact-checkers" at the "paper" of record.

It's all been bull#### since WWI, be it corporate PR or media propaganda. At least alternative truth will die quickly at the hands of less organization, and we can get back to our only savior, biased and pluralistic media or those benevolent ones that see how important non-partisan truth actually is and then act on.
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Looks like Kasparov was correct.

ETA: that was not a shot at Rock.  

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
I'm going to be handing out many suspensions (because there are so many suspension-worthy posts that just won't stop coming), but I'm going to make them a day or two instead of a week. I won't be giving warnings. The shorter suspensions will be the warnings.
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Wait..are you a big Chuck Todd fan? Because I'll delete that article and apologize post haste.

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
Looks like Kasparov was correct.

ETA: that was not a shot at Rock.  
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I didn't take it that way, and my thesis may have unwittingly undermined itself. Both can be so.

Anyway, I didn't take offense, but rather, thought enough of Orton to go back and read my point, which may have been exactly what Kasparov was saying. I did it hastily.

 
@Joe Bryant — when you have a minute sometime can you elaborate a little on what you meant by this quote in the Buttigieg thread?:

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/774877-official-pete-buttigieg-thread/?do=findComment&comment=22405828
I hear you. But I think if it comes to asking our moderators to be the bouncer at the trendy club to boot people just because they think they suck even though they haven't violated a rule, I think we're likely finished. And that may well already be the case. Would certainly save us a lot of time. 
————

To me it is just such an obvious solution.  You and Maurile are great posters.  You’re both presumably able to distinguish between good and bad posters.  Is it that:

1) You think this is some sort of public space and that it is unfair to ban people for being crappy posters?; or

2) You think it would be too difficult or time consuming for mods to figure out who the crappy posters are and ban them?; or

3) You think different mods have different views on who the crappy posters are?; or

4) You are concerned that if you determine crappiness based on objective measures it will result in the banning of a lot of pro-Trump posters and that it will be perceived as content-based banning?; or

5) Something else I haven’t considered?

I don’t mean to belabor this but I just have trouble understanding why this wouldn’t work.  

 
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I didn’t reply again in the Pete thread as I didn’t want to derail things even further.  @Joe Bryant - I honestly don’t know what suggestions I have but think that fatguy, as usual, has it mostly right.  Just get rid of the people causing problems even if they aren’t breaking a specific rule.  I could name four guys, 2 on each side of the aisle that should have been gone months ago because all they do is argue and basically just ruin the place.  There’s a couple that just flat out lie and twist words around to meet their agenda - I think MT knows who they are but I also know MT doesn’t want that burden and doesn’t want to be wrong, even if there’s just a 1% chance the poster is just really uninformed. And I can’t blame him.

But, the way I see it, you have three choices - you either make that tough call and get rid of those posters, you go back to much more relaxed moderation and just let the less egregious stuff go or you just shut it down.

 
AAABatteries said:
I didn’t reply again in the Pete thread as I didn’t want to derail things even further.  @Joe Bryant - I honestly don’t know what suggestions I have but think that fatguy, as usual, has it mostly right.  Just get rid of the people causing problems even if they aren’t breaking a specific rule.  I could name four guys, 2 on each side of the aisle that should have been gone months ago because all they do is argue and basically just ruin the place.  There’s a couple that just flat out lie and twist words around to meet their agenda - I think MT knows who they are but I also know MT doesn’t want that burden and doesn’t want to be wrong, even if there’s just a 1% chance the poster is just really uninformed. And I can’t blame him.

But, the way I see it, you have three choices - you either make that tough call and get rid of those posters, you go back to much more relaxed moderation and just let the less egregious stuff go or you just shut it down.
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Censorship....yeah thats a great way to run a bulletin board.  Wow

 
AAABatteries said:
I didn’t reply again in the Pete thread as I didn’t want to derail things even further.  @Joe Bryant - I honestly don’t know what suggestions I have but think that fatguy, as usual, has it mostly right.  Just get rid of the people causing problems even if they aren’t breaking a specific rule.  I could name four guys, 2 on each side of the aisle that should have been gone months ago because all they do is argue and basically just ruin the place.  There’s a couple that just flat out lie and twist words around to meet their agenda - I think MT knows who they are but I also know MT doesn’t want that burden and doesn’t want to be wrong, even if there’s just a 1% chance the poster is just really uninformed. And I can’t blame him.

But, the way I see it, you have three choices - you either make that tough call and get rid of those posters, you go back to much more relaxed moderation and just let the less egregious stuff go or you just shut it down.
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I don't think it is even that far they need to go.  MT's rule of posting about other posters in threads of substance would really go a long way. It is rampant again.  I was seeing jokes directed at Tim about when he wakes up in the AM....that is the type of stuff that kills discussions IMO.  

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
@Joe Bryant — when you have a minute sometime can you elaborate a little on what you meant by this quote in the Buttigieg thread?:

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/774877-official-pete-buttigieg-thread/?do=findComment&comment=22405828
I hear you. But I think if it comes to asking our moderators to be the bouncer at the trendy club to boot people just because they think they suck even though they haven't violated a rule, I think we're likely finished. And that may well already be the case. Would certainly save us a lot of time. 
————

To me it is just such an obvious solution.  You and Maurile are great posters.  You’re both presumably able to distinguish between good and bad posters.  Is it that:

1) You think this is some sort of public space and that it is unfair to ban people for being crappy posters?; or

2) You think it would be too difficult or time consuming for mods to figure out who the crappy posters are and ban them?; or

3) You think different mods have different views on who the crappy posters are?; or

4) You are concerned that if you determine crappiness based on objective measures it will result in the banning of a lot of pro-Trump posters and that it will be perceived as content-based banning?; or

5) Something else I haven’t considered?

I don’t mean to belabor this but I just have trouble understanding why this wouldn’t work.  
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Thanks. This is a big thing and I've got a lot of thoughts on it. I'll try to get to them in the next day or so. Thanks and I don't think you're belaboring it at all. You're helping me clarify it more. Although I'm pretty sure this isn't going in the direction many will like.

It's super troubling when people I value like Krista says the product we're offering to people is utterly useless, that's pretty significant in the overall question of "is this worth it?". 

 
I'm also bummed that this is playing out exactly like I feared. My big objection to @Maurile Tremblay's heartfelt and thoughtful ideas on a solution here was I strongly disagreed people would accept suspensions as lightheartedly as he hoped.

What to do if you're suspended:

Take a week off. Go for a walk. Read a book. Start a journal. I understand that gardening can be quite pleasant.

It's not the end of the world if you're suspended. Think of it as us shutting down the forum for a week to see how things go, except that we're shutting it down one poster at a time on a rolling basis instead of doing everybody en masse all at once.
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It's been my experience many people take offense to a suspension. We saw that with Sinn Fein. 100 time out of 100 times, a person will get a short suspension who makes a "Trump is full of ####" post talking about a clogged toilet. My fear is we'd get exactly what happened with him. And I understand that.

Everyone loves grace extended to them. Showing the same grace to everyone else is another thing. It's an age old problem. I struggle with it. Most everyone does.

The bouncer at the trendy nightclub analogy is important though. I'll try to work on that some for another thread. 

 
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The solution seems to be to crack down on trolling.  The problem, though, is there is this level of subtle trolling that can be hard to spot just looking at one post.  You often have to recall the troll's posting history to understand.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks. This is a big thing and I've got a lot of thoughts on it. I'll try to get to them in the next day or so. Thanks and I don't think you're belaboring it at all. You're helping me clarify it more. Although I'm pretty sure this isn't going in the direction many will like.

It's super troubling when people I value like Krista says the product we're offering to people is utterly useless, that's pretty significant in the overall question of "is this worth it?". 
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@Joe Bryant- take a few minutes and read the current thread about the Iraq embassy under attack. It’s a great discussion and it demonstrates why it’s forum remains of value. 

 
Juxtatarot said:
The solution seems to be to crack down on trolling.  The problem, though, is there is this level of subtle trolling that can be hard to spot just looking at one post.  You often have to recall the troll's posting history to understand.
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Sometimes it’s not even subtle.  Yesterday one guy that dominates every thread with volume accused a guy of trolling. Instead of simply checking himself out of the thread he threatens to return fire with more and more snark.  That’s what needs to go. 
 

And then there are guys who’s schtick is to run around asking for links and backup who will never provide it in return.  That clearly shows they aren’t interested in good discussion and are playing gotcha.  Maurile clearly told us don’t ask questions of posters you aren’t interested in a legitimate discussion with.  Well legitimate discussions can’t be one way streets

 
supermike80 said:
Censorship....yeah thats a great way to run a bulletin board.  Wow
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It’s always been censored here... foul language, no NSFW content, yoga pants, etc etc.  While I understand your point if it wasn’t censored we’d have 4chan and no one wants that.  It’s just the way of the internet unfortunately.....

 
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Ramblin Wreck said:
Sometimes it’s not even subtle.  Yesterday one guy that dominates every thread with volume accused a guy of trolling. Instead of simply checking himself out of the thread he threatens to return fire with more and more snark.  That’s what needs to go. 
 

And then there are guys who’s schtick is to run around asking for links and backup who will never provide it in return.  That clearly shows they aren’t interested in good discussion and are playing gotcha.  Maurile clearly told us don’t ask questions of posters you aren’t interested in a legitimate discussion with.  Well legitimate discussions can’t be one way streets
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Exhibit 1A.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Sometimes it’s not even subtle.  Yesterday one guy that dominates every thread with volume accused a guy of trolling. Instead of simply checking himself out of the thread he threatens to return fire with more and more snark.  That’s what needs to go. 
 
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That was me. It was from two days ago. It was directed at @HellToupee. It wasn’t a serious thread, nor was I being serious. 

Helltoupee trolls all the time. It doesn’t offend me; I find it amusing, because he does it in a light hearted, obvious way. When he writes stuff like “embrace the greatness that is Donald Trump!” He’s not trying to make a serious argument. Nor is he really trying to anger anybody. He’s having fun, and I choose to have fun with him. Sometimes that means snarky, humorous responses. IMO neither Helltoupee’s posts nor my responses to them have anything to do with what is wrong with this forum. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Sometimes it’s not even subtle.  Yesterday one guy that dominates every thread with volume accused a guy of trolling. Instead of simply checking himself out of the thread he threatens to return fire with more and more snark.  That’s what needs to go. 
 

And then there are guys who’s schtick is to run around asking for links and backup who will never provide it in return.  That clearly shows they aren’t interested in good discussion and are playing gotcha.  Maurile clearly told us don’t ask questions of posters you aren’t interested in a legitimate discussion with.  Well legitimate discussions can’t be one way streets
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All very true.  There are also guys here who create posts with only the intent of getting a reaction and goading people then play victim when getting said reaction. It’s the definition of trolling but it’s also impossible to manage.  

 
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Joe Bryant said:
I'm also bummed that this is playing out exactly like I feared. My big objection to @Maurile Tremblay's heartfelt and thoughtful ideas on a solution here was I strongly disagreed people would accept suspensions as lightheartedly as he hoped.

It's been my experience many people take offense to a suspension. We saw that with Sinn Fein. 100 time out of 100 times, a person will be suspended for a few days who makes a "Trump is full of ####" post talking about a clogged toilet. My fear is we'd get exactly what happened with him. And I understand that.

Everyone loves grace extended to them. Showing the same grace to everyone else is another thing. It's an age old problem. 

The bouncer at the trendy nightclub analogy is important though. I'll try to work on that some for another thread. 
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Joe this played out as you feared because you didn't address the real problem, which is dealing with the trouble makers who seemingly in every thread are subtly or not so subtly trolling others here with the apparent intent of shutting down the discussion or hijacking the thread.

The solution, as others have stated is simple. Suspend the repeat offenders with increasingly harsher penalties, and if that doesn't work then permaban them.

I understand the fix I suggest will make the discussion probably even less diverse, as in my opinion, the worst repeat offenders seem to be on one side of the political spectrum. However, continuing to look the other way or using these mini-suspensions does not seem to be working.

Shutting the down the forum entirely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. This forum has had some really good discussion in it and it shouldn't be ended by a few folks who are not serious about talking about politics at all.

I hope you decide to keep this place going.

Happy New Year!

 
timschochet said:
That was me. It was from two days ago. It was directed at @HellToupee. It wasn’t a serious thread, nor was I being serious. 

Helltoupee trolls all the time. It doesn’t offend me; I find it amusing, because he does it in a light hearted, obvious way. When he writes stuff like “embrace the greatness that is Donald Trump!” He’s not trying to make a serious argument. Nor is he really trying to anger anybody. He’s having fun, and I choose to have fun with him. Sometimes that means snarky, humorous responses. IMO neither Helltoupee’s posts nor my responses to them have anything to do with what is wrong with this forum. 
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I don’t consider my posts trolling ,but  I do exaggerate my feelings from time to time . I’m also guilty of sometimes taking shots at you but try to do so not in a mean spirited way , more of a fun ball busting way.

I like to laugh and have fun. Sorry but it’s true. We’re not solving the worlds problems. We’re. Chewing the fat on a magic football message board .I’m amused at the posters who think this is  MENSAguys 

 
timschochet said:
That was me. It was from two days ago. It was directed at @HellToupee. It wasn’t a serious thread, nor was I being serious. 

Helltoupee trolls all the time. It doesn’t offend me; I find it amusing, because he does it in a light hearted, obvious way. When he writes stuff like “embrace the greatness that is Donald Trump!” He’s not trying to make a serious argument. Nor is he really trying to anger anybody. He’s having fun, and I choose to have fun with him. Sometimes that means snarky, humorous responses. IMO neither Helltoupee’s posts nor my responses to them have anything to do with what is wrong with this forum. 
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That isn't trolling. HTH

 
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