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QB Jameis Winston, NO (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter massraider
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voiceofunreason
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
He didn't play well but had one interception on a Hail Mary at the end of the first half and another on the last play of the game. Settle down.
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Tommy Collins
Footballguy
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
You want to blame an OL for drive killing penalties then you can blame the Bucs OL for not doing their job which is what kept Jameis from having a clean pocket to throw from. Dak didn't have that issue to deal with. But I guess that doesn't fit your narrative.
The 2nd INT was a result of his elbow being hit as he threw. He had no protection at all last night.
WheelsUp
Footballguy
Capella, Last I checked last play interceptions count as negatives still. Settle down? I'm a huge Winston fan just cracking a little relief for those like me who suffered through it. Why is this site soooooooooooooooooooo sensitive? You wouldnt know its a site devoted to people who watch men hit each other violently every week.
Capella
Footballguy
Mainly because every time he has a bad game a dozen trolls come out to highlight it, and then they run and hide for his next 7 quality games.
WheelsUp
Footballguy
The troll talk, thats the norm around here in my little less than a year here, the everyone must agree or they are troll line? No, I love Winston and was hoping he would shine these few week but will say this... He just got out of bed and dropped his toothbrush, again, his girlfriend recovered it.
Sorry you are sensitive to anything that doesnt praise a guy, regardless of my fandom, who just turned the ball over 4 times.
I can separate my bias, some here cant, they just call them trolls if they do separate.
At least we can get excited for him to play the Saints who he destroyed last match up, oh, wait.
Winston must cut down on turnovers regardless of their impact on the game.
Sorry you are sensitive to anything that doesnt praise a guy, regardless of my fandom, who just turned the ball over 4 times.
I can separate my bias, some here cant, they just call them trolls if they do separate.
At least we can get excited for him to play the Saints who he destroyed last match up, oh, wait.
Winston must cut down on turnovers regardless of their impact on the game.
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packer_junkie
Footballguy
Winston isn't that good.... Missed Evans on 3-4 throws that could have won or brought them close to winning the game. He is very inaccurate.
Capella
Footballguy
No, not everybody who dislikes the guy is a troll. If you've followed along with the whole thread you would know what I was referring to. Don't feel like re-hashing it now
I am not sensitive about him, he was really bad last night but not because of 3 of his turnovers. The only one that was on him or didn't come as a Hail Mary was the dropped ball.
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
How much pressure was on him on those throws? Im aaking because I dont remember them exactly but his protection was pretty much non-existent. Cherilus is lucky he hasn't been cut yet.
On top of that, he's a loose cannon. My gawd, what other QB since Jeff George, losses his mind so easily? Head butt's the opposing player?
I mean this guy is a serious moron.Turnover machine, loose cannon AND dumb. Now that is a generational QB.
THE HEADBUTT
You can talk him up all you want Capella but this guy is an idiot. Funny as hell though. Look at him. He's even uncoordinated on a head butt.Took teams long enough but they finally figured out that you take Evans out of the game. I was wonder if it was going to have to wait until Belicheck got a hold of TB for the rest of the league to figure it out.
Better build a world class D to counter this TO machine.
packer_junkie
Footballguy
Headbutt took them a TD basically off the board and made them settle for a FG....
Tommy, on the deep throw to Evans-- he escaped pressure on a 3rd and 18-- evans WORKED both the corner and the safety and had an easy 3-4 steps on both and Jameis gave him no shot-- if he under throws him-- its probably PI cause they were both frantically chasing Evans as he was streaking down the field of what would have put them up.... It was an awful miss fire.
On the last drive-- he had Evans wide open again after he beat double coverage with a really nice move. For some reason-- winston slid right-- which was were the pressure was coming from for the whole fourth quarter---
Watching him last night was painful.
Tommy, on the deep throw to Evans-- he escaped pressure on a 3rd and 18-- evans WORKED both the corner and the safety and had an easy 3-4 steps on both and Jameis gave him no shot-- if he under throws him-- its probably PI cause they were both frantically chasing Evans as he was streaking down the field of what would have put them up.... It was an awful miss fire.
On the last drive-- he had Evans wide open again after he beat double coverage with a really nice move. For some reason-- winston slid right-- which was were the pressure was coming from for the whole fourth quarter---
Watching him last night was painful.
Capella
Footballguy
Manster
Footballguy
Settle down Frances.......both QB's have been playing well, Dak was a little better, that's all......and the Cowboys defense was a little better than the Bucs defense.
This narrative that Dak has the easiest job in the NFL needs to go away though.....what he's doing as a rookie is pretty incredible.....he's making plays, and he's playing smart.....he's engineering game winning drives.....he won't win MVP, but he's in the discussion, and rightfully so.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
So, there are actually people who are down in a 22 year old, second year QB who's performed very well this year with Cameron Brate as his #2 target in the passing game and a poor running game to support him?
Really?
The guy's good now, and he's going to be really good soon. He takes chances, and he has to with the group of guys he has to throw to. It's not like he's Dak, performing behind an all-world offensive line and the best running game in the league with a stud WR to throw to and a future HOFer at TE. Winston actually has to make things happen, largely on his own, and he's shown a ton of improvement this year.
Really?
The guy's good now, and he's going to be really good soon. He takes chances, and he has to with the group of guys he has to throw to. It's not like he's Dak, performing behind an all-world offensive line and the best running game in the league with a stud WR to throw to and a future HOFer at TE. Winston actually has to make things happen, largely on his own, and he's shown a ton of improvement this year.
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
It's easy to credit his OL with being the reason he is experiencing so much success. I understand the thought process behind it. Is it true? Partially. Yes, he's benefiting from having that great OL. No, not everybody could be playing as well as him under the same conditions. Look at Matt Cassell, Kellen Moore and Brandon Weeden from 2015. They were awful. So it's certainly not a situation where anybody could succeed there just because they have a dominant OL. It certainly helps, but that's not the sole reason. Dak has been cool under pressure, accurate, consistent and makes good decisions. He seems to have a really good grasp of the offense and makes pre and post-snap reads at a higher level than we are accustomed to seeing by rookie QBs.
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
I agree, for the majority of the game he played poorly. But again, there was constant pressure on him almost the entire game and he had to get the ball out earlier than he wanted to. It would be silly to blame Jameis for all the mishaps on offense. That's not to say he wasn't a problem, as he definitely was. He missed high on some throws, overthrowing Evans on 3rd and 18 was completely inexcusable. While Winston wasn't good, Gosder Cherilus had one of the worst individual performances I have ever seen from an OT. That was absolutely pathetic.
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
They need to focus on finding OL and a WR this off-season. Their defense has done well lately and they obviously have many of the other pieces. You gotta give the kid something to work with. Hopefully he doesn't even up like Luck, playing behind a terrible OL his entire career because his GM is a moron.
WheelsUp
Footballguy
Ok, clearly some are still sore from last night.
But moving on, is he even startable next week against a terrible defense on the road?
A defense that just snapped his TD in every game ever mark?
They will not shut Brees down in New Orleans, not after watching what Dak just did to them in a dome, Brees wont have rain to deal with.
But moving on, is he even startable next week against a terrible defense on the road?
A defense that just snapped his TD in every game ever mark?
They will not shut Brees down in New Orleans, not after watching what Dak just did to them in a dome, Brees wont have rain to deal with.
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
Yes, Dak outplayed Jameis, and yes the Cowboys would have won by multiple TD's if they didn't shoot themselves in the foot (not sure what that even has to do with anything). However, if you watched the game last night, you would clearly see that Jameis is in a 100x more difficult situation than Dak was.
Again, David Irving had 9 hurries, 5 QB hits, 2 sacks and a deflected pass in the second half alone. That stateline would be crazy for an entire game, let alone just 1 half. I'm sure all of those numbers are more than the entire Bucs D had all game. On the last few drives, Winston had pressure in his face literally every single dropback within 3 seconds. How many times did that happen to Dak all game? 2 or 3 times?
In addition to that, the Bucs just don't have weapons. Evans is a beast, but teams have clearly focused in on him the past few weeks and are giving him constant double coverage with safety help. This should open up more room for other receivers, but then you realize who else they have. Cam Brate, a UDFA out of Harvard last year, is the clear cut #2 option, while Adam Humphries, an average at best slot WR, is the next best receiver. Other than them, no other receiver should be on a NFL roster. Dak on the other hand has a stud in Dez, a potential future HOF TE in Witten, Cole Beasley who is a solid and very reliable slot WR and Terrance Williams who is at least a decent WR3/WR4.
Finally, the Bucs had no running game to speak of. They pretty much abandoned the running game in the 2nd half because it was so ineffective, and that goes back to the o-line playing awful. Doug was being hit behind the LOS constantly and had no room to run. We all know how successful the Cowboys run game and Zeke was last night and that's how they have been all year.
When one QB has a significantly better o-line and run game, and even has better weapons, of course he's probably going to look like the better QB. The supporting casts are so night and day that you really can't compare the two players. Dak did a good job at doing what he needed to do, and that was find the open man and not turn the ball over, but it's not like he was making crazy plays all over the field. The majority of his passes were no more than 10 yards and he was sitting comfortably in the pocket finding these guys.
So, yes Dak did outplay Jameis last night, but that would be the case for pretty much any QB when the supporting casts are so different. If Dak was a Buc and Jameis was a Cowboy, it would be a completely different story.
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
Yes, sadly, but it is mainly trolls/Jameis haters who are trashing him. For whatever reason, a lot of people don't understand that football is a team sport and you can't blame/give credit to the QB for everything that happens. Anyone who knows football and watches Bucs games understands that Jameis is still very young and has shown a ton of potential, but has been held back by a weak supporting cast. And that's not to say he is perfect, because he does still make a good amount of boneheaded decisions and needs to cut down on the turnovers, but the guy is only 22 and I believe he will learn from this and get better. I think he'll always be a gunslinger and make risky throws to an extent, but he can get better with it.
WheelsUp
Footballguy
No, its not all from trolls or haters. I have been in here trying to find projection for weeks (most season) and discussing them. I think Winston is going to be a borderline good/great QB.
Have him on a team, so I am not a hater nor a troll.
But, if he was in prison he would drop the soap 43 times in the first 5 minutes, and not by choice.
I am a fan, yet I can see with my own eyes he is a turnover machine.
Defense players should just walk up to him, insert their card and ask him for the ball like am ATM. (Automatic Turnover Machine)
I am a fan, but I also realize the facts that he gives the ball away at will most games. Doesnt matter when they are or how they are turned over, they are turnovers.
You can criticize a player and still like him, that is an actual thing.
I have to say I am a fan 3 times, so that those so upset with someone factual discussing his results can see it.
The headbutt that cost his team big? Sometimes players do things that are indefensible, that is one of them.
Have him on a team, so I am not a hater nor a troll.
But, if he was in prison he would drop the soap 43 times in the first 5 minutes, and not by choice.
I am a fan, yet I can see with my own eyes he is a turnover machine.
Defense players should just walk up to him, insert their card and ask him for the ball like am ATM. (Automatic Turnover Machine)
I am a fan, but I also realize the facts that he gives the ball away at will most games. Doesnt matter when they are or how they are turned over, they are turnovers.
You can criticize a player and still like him, that is an actual thing.
I have to say I am a fan 3 times, so that those so upset with someone factual discussing his results can see it.
The headbutt that cost his team big? Sometimes players do things that are indefensible, that is one of them.
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Capella
Footballguy
He's thrown 15 picks on the year. 7 of them have come in 2 games. In his last 9 games before this one he had 4 total interceptions.
I don't think "facts" or "at will" or "most games" means what you think they mean.
And yes, when turnovers happen absolutely matters. That's a ridiculous comment. An interception on a last play of the half Hail Mary might count against his stats, but any functional brain can realize it doesn't hurt his team.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Wow. Less than 2 years in the league. Has put a formally crappy team on his back and has them in playoff contention. Goes into the house of the team with the best record of the league and despite a terrible 1st half by the entire team engineers a huge comeback that had his team in a position to win in the last minute.
Yeah, he permnantly sucks for all time. Good call, eckspurts.
Yeah, he permnantly sucks for all time. Good call, eckspurts.
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
Because this is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. Not saying the stat doesn't count but it needs to be excused. You should be praising Jameis for having the nuts to throw his stats out the window actually trying to get the ball down in the endzone. Otherwise you end up with the absolute re#### screens on the last play of a game when a team is trailing and they need 70 yards for the TD. Like Stafford yesterday. And a million others I see weekly because the QB is too afraid to throw a hail mary pick. I saw Brees do it a few weeks ago, and others. Nobody throws hail Mary's anymore and it p*sses me off cause I can't remember a single time I've seen a hail mary screen go 80 yards for a TD yet teams continue to do it each week for like the past two years now. These QBS needs to grow a f###ing pair and try to win the game instead of padding their INT count and completion %.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Tampa Bay gave up three sacks & nine hurries. Very few QBs in the NFL will put up good numbers with that kind of sustained pressure.
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
Not saying you're a troll and I am definitely fine with criticism of Jameis. As I have said before, he needs to cut down on the boneheaded decisions and his accuracy is still inconsistent. The missed deep ball to Evans just can't happen.
Take a look at the turnovers from last night though. 2 of them were a hail mary/4th down desperation throw which would be pretty silly to blame him for. His other INT was because the ball sailed on him because his arm was hit as he throwing, which is again hard to blame on him. The fumble was a similar thing and it is not like he was holding the ball too long, the pressure was just consistently coming at an alarming rate. So, yes he did have 4 turnovers last night, but if you really look into them, you can see that they really weren't all his fault/relevant.
You also have to remember that Jameis is only 22 and the youngest starting QB in the NFL. When you put this type of supporting cast around him, what are you really expecting? With a hopefully improved o-line, more weapons and some more maturity from Winston, I'm sure his turnovers will be cut down next year.
CalBear
Footballguy
If you're going to play the "but it wasn't his fault" game, the TD wasn't his "fault" either; it was a ball floated into double coverage that should have been another INT.
That's kinda funny when you look at Bronco Billy's post where it's all Winston and he has put the team on his back. That was funny by the way. Guess you are referring to him because man, that defense has been what has carried this team.
http://www.espn.com/blog/tampa-bay-buccaneers/post/_/id/15498/bucs-defense-deserves-standing-ovation-for-16-11-win-over-saints
Maybe he can get better maybe he can't. I'm saying he can't. He will always make totally boneheaded moves like the now signature headbutt move. You see it every game where he goes off his rocker at the slightest thing that goes wrong. Too bad they cut away after he freaked out last week when the K missed another.
http://www.buccaneers.com/news/article-smith/Bucs-Defense-On-a-Feeding-Frenzy/23b206ab-8e63-4389-969b-6a859740c515
Stat Shots: During the Buccaneers' three-game winning streak, the team's defense has put up some of the best numbers in the NFL, topped by a six-sack outing against Seattle.
You won't hear a peep about that from these homers. Pure luck is what that was. Notice not one of them has mentioned the stupidity of the headbutt.
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So let me understand this better.
Dak has played lights out all year, but the credit goes to the Oline and his receivers; but last week he puts up below average numbers because the line doesn't hold its blocks as well, and Overrated Dez trips in front of a CB causing an INT, Dez quits on a route causing an INT, Dez drops two 3rd down passes in his hands, and Dez fumbles the ball after a catch that puts us closer to game winning field goal range...... But that was all Dak's fault and he should be benched?!?!
I wish the haters would make up their mind.
Pretty funny huh?
Another angle of Winston's signature move. It seems he thinks he's somehow sneaking it in there.
"I'll headbutt you. Here Doug, let me help you up, nobody saw my sneaky headbutt. Huh, what?" The Look of total stupidity.Ndamukong Suh mentality right there.
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Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
Yes, as I said earlier in my post, I would like for him to cut down on the boneheaded decisions. While that ended up working in our favor, Winston should have just ran for the 1st down and kept the drive alive. He made another play similar in the 3rd quarter on a 3rd down where he threw across his body to Brate instead of just running for the 1st down. Both ended up working and were huge plays, but I think sometimes Jameis is looking to be the hero when he just needs to keep the drive going. Part of that it his gunslinging mentality, which I'm okay with, but he still needs to cut down on it a bit and take what's there at times.
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
You know he did that because he felt Martin was thrown to the ground after the whistle (he was). But the headbutt was pretty obvious and a stupid move.Pretty funny huh?
Another angle of Winston's signature move. It seems he thinks he's somehow sneaking it in there.
Ndamukong Suh mentality right there.
This thread has gotten out of control though.
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
The defense has obviously been the main reason for the turn around and recent 5 game win streak. No sane Buc fan would disagree with that. That doesn't mean Jameis hasn't had a big effect in this as well because he definitely has. Jameis' leadership and attitude has helped change the Bucs losing culture and they are clearly learning how to win games and compete with the best teams in the league. Other than yesterday, he was also doing his job, finding the open receivers and cutting down on the mistakes/turnovers.
http://www.espn.com/blog/tampa-bay-buccaneers/post/_/id/15154/jameis-winston-pens-heartfelt-letter-to-bucs-teammates-before-kc-win
You can focus on the little minor negative things such as the headbutt, but that doesn't really matter too much to me. The guy just has such passion for the game and his teammates and I love to see that. He does get a little out of control sometimes, but when you see your QB having as much passion as Jameis has, it spreads throughout the team and just makes everyone play harder.
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
I didn't say anything about Dak last week. I think Dak has done an excellent job this year at doing what he needs to do, which is make the right reads to the open receiver and not turn the ball over. I do think people have overreacted to Dak's performance over the past 2 weeks because he's the QB and everyone blames the QB when the offense struggles. Look at what everyone was saying about Aaron Rodgers about a month ago. It also doesn't help that he's on the media darling Cowboys and has Romo breathing behind his back who a lot of people love and respect. With that being said, it's also clear that Dak has an incredible supporting cast and this makes his job much easier to do, so when he isn't at his best, people may complain a lot because he's in such a good position to succeed.
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You can call it a minor negativity if you like but the guy has a history of bad decisions and regardless of what he says, he just proved that, like Suh, he will continue making bad decisions going forward. It's one thing to grab the defender and push him, but an attempt at sneaking in a headbutt? He has learned nothing from past mistakes. Other teams take notes and the book on this guy is get him rattled and he will go off his rocker. He showed them that he cannot control himself in the face of adversity. Time will tell if he fixes his mental issues.
WheelsUp
Footballguy
This thread has just become absurd.
Someone criticizes the kids turnovers and that means they are saying he is the worst QB of all time? Bronco Billy, thats a little dramatic?
I did not see one person say the sort.
Then,
Shamrock says we should praise a kid for being careless with the ball because he throws stats out the window.
I guess people dont think part of winning is protecting the ball.
Why has football become so political, its like you have to go to the extreme on both side and you just cant have a fair opinion.
Someone criticizes the kids turnovers and that means they are saying he is the worst QB of all time? Bronco Billy, thats a little dramatic?
I did not see one person say the sort.
Then,
Shamrock says we should praise a kid for being careless with the ball because he throws stats out the window.
I guess people dont think part of winning is protecting the ball.
Why has football become so political, its like you have to go to the extreme on both side and you just cant have a fair opinion.
jabarony
Footballguy
Last night was the first Bucs game I watched in a while. Maybe in past weeks teams took Evans away, but not last night - that was all Winston with bad passes or failing to throw him the ball when open. If he's really their only weapon, maybe he should throw to him more often & more accurately.Bucsfan5493 said:
As for the lack of weapons, I'm thinking there's a decent sized group of NFL QBs who would rather have Evans + scrubs instead of Delaine + scrubs, or Britt + scrubs, or just all scrubs.
The thing about yesterday's game wasn't that he just made bad throws and mental errors, but how comical they were. The headbutt, sailing passes 5ft overhead, and whatever happened on that last drive fumble were Sanchez-like.
On the plus side, he had 1 nice drive.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
WheelsUp said:
You didn't see me say it either, Captain Hyperbole.
And yes, there are some in this thread that have portrayed Winston as an abject failure who cannot possibly succeed. And yes, they deserve ridicule for taking such an absurdly assinine position.
.
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OK, bringing this thread back to more concrete matters, what do we think of him this week @NO? I'm torn between him and Mariota. Definitely don't think it will be the rock fight that last week's game was, but I also don't think it's the cakewalk everyone was waiting for all fall.
Knight who says Ni
Footballguy
I can't tell if this is a "fool me once ..." kind of game - I don't feel like I can take a chance with Winston in the championship, even if it is against New Orleans in the dome. The 184 yards 0 TD performance is very fresh in my memory.
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FF Nerd
Footballguy
Have the exact same decision and no clue what i'm going to do at this point. Have Evans as well, so I'd be going all in on TB passing game, which doesn't feel great after the past few weeks.
Bucsfan5493
Footballguy
I haven't watched the all-22 so I don't really know if Evans was open all game though. Based off of the defensive coverages, it looked like Carr was following Evans around and almost always seemed to have safety help. I remember a play early in the game when he had single coverage with Carr and Jameis realized and threw it to him right away and drew the DPI. I don't remember too many missed throws to Evans. I think I remember one ball going too high over the middle, and then obviously the overthrow on 3rd and 18 was really bad. He was double covered on that overthrow too, Evans just happened to beat them both.
Also, if you just look at target numbers, it seems pretty clear defenses are focusing all of their attention on Evans. Through Week 12, Evans had 11+ targets in 9 of 11 games. He hasn't had more than 8 in the past 3 games. I don't think Winston just randomly stopped throwing to him as much, as the offense was clicking and Evans was making plays, definitely think that has more to do with defenses adjusting and not really respecting any of our other weapons. It's no coincidence that the offense has struggled since Evans has been less involved, Brate is the only other one who has stepped up a bit and made plays.
Yes, Evans is a beast, but there's no way in hell Mariota would trade his overall supporting cast for the Bucs. Mariota's line is far superior, he has an excellent running game and one of the most reliable TE's in the game. His receivers are definitely below average, but when you have all of those other things, it opens the offense up and makes things much easier. The Rams and 49ers, yes, they have worse supporting casts, but that's a big reason why they have 2 of the worst offenses in the league. I'd say the Bucs supporting cast is bottom 5, possibly bottom 10 in the league, and the only real reason they'd be that high is because of Evans.
I'm not so sure what was so ridiculous about what he did. The headbutt looked awkward, but he was pissed the guy threw Martin down after the whistle and was standing up for his teammate. Sure, he should have kept his composure and not have done that, but it's not like it was some really dangerous thing where he went in full speed like OBJ last year. The overthrows and poor accuracy is definitely a legitimate concern though. He needs to improve on his consistency and footwork. I think part of it was the o-line just not giving him time and him having to rush his throws, but there were definitely others where he had a clean pocket and just didn't make a good throw.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Starting Winston with uttermost confidence in the championship
flipcuplegend
Footballguy
I'm going back and forth with him or Eli. Manning scares me being it's a Thursday night game. Also the game log reveals lot of QB's performing well against the Saints. The only one who hasn't done well was Winston but I think the weather and game flow in that match were the main reasons in the disappointing performance.
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