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RB Phillip Lindsay, IND (2 Viewers)

rockaction said:
I was reading somewhere that Fangio and co. are going to change blocking schemes so that Freeman might benefit. I don't have a link, so take it with a grain of salt, but the rumor was they were switching up their zone blocking or something like that, and that it would more benefit Freeman's running style than Lindsay's.
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I think there was that same rumor going into last season as well. 

 
Elway trying to have his cake and eat it too......

Elway is going to make sure Gordon (who is making $9 mil a year) gets the majority of the work so it looks like a good signing and use of resources.....Elway doesn't want to "look incompetent" again with a bad signing, so the "order from above" will be to use Gordon.......in the meantime....after not extending Lindsay after two pretty productive years.....he has now put the squash on Lindsay getting enough volume/touches to show that he still deserves the payday he probably should have gotten....

Gordon on board for two years....doesn't have to pay Lindsay yet....and can just let both walk in two years....while burning them up.....and try to find the flavor of month in a draft or free agency down the road....which many do with the RB position unless you have an exceptional talent....

not saying it's a bad way of doing business......but Lindsay has a right to be pissed IMO....glad to see he looks at it as a challenge in some ways.....but there are no two ways about it....the way things have gone down is still a slap in the face even though Lindsay was an "undrafted FA"....

I agree Gordon was more of a luxury...they have a ton of more pressing needs elsewhere...

 
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Speaking Tuesday, Broncos GM John Elway offered tepid words on a potential Phillip Lindsay contract extension. 

Lindsay is ticketed for restricted free agency next offseason. “I’ve talked to Phillip’s agent and we’ll see what happens and what we can do later on,” Elway said. “That’s not a guarantee either way, but we’ll see what we can do later on.” The Broncos made their Lindsay feelings loud and clear when they signed Melvin Gordon to a two-year, $16 million deal. It's not that they don't find him valuable, they don't view him as a true lead back. Both players are capable of contributing on all three downs, with Gordon probably the better pass-catching back, so it is unclear how the Broncos might divvy up touches. Lindsay's re-draft and dynasty value are in crisis. 

SOURCE: The Athletic 

Mar 31, 2020, 5:31 PM ET
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JohnnyU said:
None of that changes the fantasy reality though.
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Yep, but I won't be shocked if Lindsay out performs Gordon once all is said and done. The career numbers don't lie. Lindsay is way more explosive, but the concern has always been his durability. 

 
Stinkin Ref said:
Elway doesn't want to "look incompetent" again with a bad signing, so the "order from above" will be to use Gordon
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I'm not so sure.

Elway burned a middle day-2 pick on Royce Freeman and now overpaid Gordon just to keep Freeman off the field. Imo he kind of looks incompetent either way. Lindsay may talk about trying to win jobs/carries/etc but in reality being part of a RBBC will probably lengthen Lindsays career so he should be thanking Elway. At the end of the day if Gordon struggles to eclipse 3.9yards/attempt they will likely use all three plenty. In five seasons Gordon has averaged more than 3.9y/a ONCE in his career. Freeman has done it once in two years. Lindsay has never averaged less than 4.5y/a and has a coach that probably starts the season on the hot seat.

I generally don't give Elway a lot of credit for much, other than talking Manning and Wade Phillips into coming to den, but he does seem to move on from his mistakes. The decisions he's made acquiring QB's have given him ample opportunity to prove he's willing to move on from mistakes rather quickly. There are a lot of stubborn people around the NFL that just won't give up on "their guy". This applies to Fangio as well and if Gordon can't get first downs and Lindsay can, Fangio would be wise to use whoever keeps him in the job.

It's not a bad trio of RB's but based on the salary they are paying Gordon and the draft capital they invested in Freeman it should have been a strong point on the team. The guy I would actually trust to get a crucial first down would probably be the lowest paid and undrafted of the bunch.

 
BoltBacker said:
I'm not so sure.

Elway burned a middle day-2 pick on Royce Freeman and now overpaid Gordon just to keep Freeman off the field. Imo he kind of looks incompetent either way. Lindsay may talk about trying to win jobs/carries/etc but in reality being part of a RBBC will probably lengthen Lindsays career so he should be thanking Elway. At the end of the day if Gordon struggles to eclipse 3.9yards/attempt they will likely use all three plenty. In five seasons Gordon has averaged more than 3.9y/a ONCE in his career. Freeman has done it once in two years. Lindsay has never averaged less than 4.5y/a and has a coach that probably starts the season on the hot seat.

I generally don't give Elway a lot of credit for much, other than talking Manning and Wade Phillips into coming to den, but he does seem to move on from his mistakes. The decisions he's made acquiring QB's have given him ample opportunity to prove he's willing to move on from mistakes rather quickly. There are a lot of stubborn people around the NFL that just won't give up on "their guy". This applies to Fangio as well and if Gordon can't get first downs and Lindsay can, Fangio would be wise to use whoever keeps him in the job.

It's not a bad trio of RB's but based on the salary they are paying Gordon and the draft capital they invested in Freeman it should have been a strong point on the team. The guy I would actually trust to get a crucial first down would probably be the lowest paid and undrafted of the bunch.
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I would agree with much of this post except the bolded....if you ask most in Bronco country he dragged the Paxtun Lynch thing out to the bitter end......demanded Kubiak play him in at least the second half of a meaningless week 17 game against OAK......and then when Kub's didn't......Kubiak was shown the door (don't let the "health issue" excuse thing make you think different).....he then continued forcing Lynch down the throat of his coaches in an effort to save face when it was obvious the kid couldn't play and Siemien was better....then to make matters worse he moves on to Keenum and then Flacco....over paying both....he was lucky he didn't end up missing on Lock in the second round.....or else he would probably still be trying to keep Flacco around and continue down that rabbit hole...

there were probably way cheaper options out there if he wanted a RBBC......Gordon is getting bell cow money.....a little on the low side compared to some of the contracts out there for the upper level guys, but still bell cow money....it will be interesting to see how it shakes out......but with a pretty shaky GM past.....he is not going to want to see his high priced FA acquisition sitting on the sidelines while the guy making league minimum gets the work....if Lindsay does end up taking over and proves to be better then the 8 million dollar man.....Elway is going to wish he signed him on the cheap when he had the chance....really feel Elway is mishandling the local kid....

 
Elway is tied with Bo Jackson as my favorite athlete ever. The Broncos are the AFC team I follow because of him.

He's not a very good GM and should be fired. His treatment of Lindsay is pretty embarrassing.

 
ffmail4me said:
Yep, but I won't be shocked if Lindsay out performs Gordon once all is said and done. The career numbers don't lie. Lindsay is way more explosive, but the concern has always been his durability. 
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The concern of durability is there but he really hasn't been unhealthy while in the NFL.  He had a fluke wrist injury and missed one game in 2018 and played every game last year.  He has a small stature but doesn't take big hits and is quick enough to not get hit  I think the durability concern is more perception than reality.

 
Gally said:
The concern of durability is there but he really hasn't been unhealthy while in the NFL.  He had a fluke wrist injury and missed one game in 2018 and played every game last year.  He has a small stature but doesn't take big hits and is quick enough to not get hit  I think the durability concern is more perception than reality.
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Oh I agree, its more a perceived concern than reality. "He's too small to hold up over a full season" when he's actually done very well and yes, that one fluke wrist injury is the only injury I'm aware he's had after his first 2 years. 

 
I hope Lindsay gets paid by another team next year.  The way Elway has treated him cements the fact that he's a turd.

 
Stinkin Ref said:
I would agree with much of this post except the bolded....if you ask most in Bronco country he dragged the Paxtun Lynch thing out to the bitter end......demanded Kubiak play him in at least the second half of a meaningless week 17 game against OAK......and then when Kub's didn't......Kubiak was shown the door (don't let the "health issue" excuse thing make you think different).....he then continued forcing Lynch down the throat of his coaches in an effort to save face when it was obvious the kid couldn't play and Siemien was better....then to make matters worse he moves on to Keenum and then Flacco....over paying both....he was lucky he didn't end up missing on Lock in the second round.....or else he would probably still be trying to keep Flacco around and continue down that rabbit hole...

there were probably way cheaper options out there if he wanted a RBBC......Gordon is getting bell cow money.....a little on the low side compared to some of the contracts out there for the upper level guys, but still bell cow money....it will be interesting to see how it shakes out......but with a pretty shaky GM past.....he is not going to want to see his high priced FA acquisition sitting on the sidelines while the guy making league minimum gets the work....if Lindsay does end up taking over and proves to be better then the 8 million dollar man.....Elway is going to wish he signed him on the cheap when he had the chance....really feel Elway is mishandling the local kid....
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Your hate of the Broncos actually supersedes your love of the Chiefs.  Weird.

 
BoltBacker said:
In five seasons Gordon has averaged more than 3.9y/a ONCE in his career. Freeman has done it once in two years. Lindsay has never averaged less than 4.5y/a and has a coach that probably starts the season on the hot seat.
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I'm not sure what we can really take away from ypc when they played for 2 different teams with two different o-lines. 

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Elway is tied with Bo Jackson as my favorite athlete ever. The Broncos are the AFC team I follow because of him.

He's not a very good GM and should be fired. His treatment of Lindsay is pretty embarrassing.
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Considering he has had five seasons now since Peyton's retirement to get the coach and QB both right, if they don't make the playoffs this year, or at least show major improvement, then Elway probably needs to go.  Props to him for his role in the two Super Bowl appearances and one Super Bowl win last decade, but this team has too much talent to keep finishing under .500.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Considering he has had five seasons now since Peyton's retirement to get the coach and QB both right, if they don't make the playoffs this year, or at least show major improvement, then Elway probably needs to go.  Props to him for his role in the two Super Bowl appearances and one Super Bowl win last decade, but this team has too much talent to keep finishing under .500.
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do you think the bolded is REALY true....most would say talent and especially lack of depth is and has been the Broncos main issue since the SB year.....even during the Manning years, Elways drafts kind of stunk up the joint....there is actually a void of All Pro/ Pro Bowl level type talent on this team....most bordering on average or so...

I will say I think Elway has made some nice additions this offseason (maybe not in the right spots or at the right amount of $) ....but to say they have too much talent to keep finishing under .500 seems to indicate you think they are loaded and it has all been coaching or something (which that revolving door is also on Elway)...and letting Wade walk was a big mistake....lot of draft pick and FA misses that affect the talent and depth....IMO this team hasn't been very talented over the last 4 years and the record seems to support that....Elway has been given an extended hall pass that most other GM's would not receive....his past as a player, Manning deciding to come to Denver and the FA that followed him, and the instability in the Broncos ownership status has allowed him to do a pretty crappy job over the last 5 years and hang around....I do think the arrow is pointing up a little more this year than in the past few...some good core options with Lock, Risner, the RB's, Sutton, Fant....Chubb, Von,....so we'll see...

 
Rodrigo Duterte said:
Your hate of the Broncos actually supersedes your love of the Chiefs.  Weird.
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?...ok....lol...is this a football discussion forum...?....did I say something that wasn't true...?....just giving some background on how Elway has handled things in the past and how he puts his stamp on the day to day on field decisions and how that may affect Lindsay/Gordon....

 
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Unhidden

Dr. Dan - what others have you hidden? You said yesterday you'd told us all of them. This is not cool. These threads are not yours to hide once they have other people comment. 

 
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BradtheAg said:
Maybe turn off the ability for people to hide their threads?  Why does that exist in the first place?
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Unfortunately the setting to turn off the ability to hide threads was hidden a few years back and can’t seem to be unhidden.

 
Just took him 12.11 in a PPR best ball dynasty startup. I think that's pretty damn good value for a RB who's had his success the last 2 years. I wouldn't be surprised if he's one of the top steals of the draft this year based on his ADP. I still think he's a much better RB than Gordon. And if Elway can't see it, I hope he leaves after next year and signs elsewhere. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
Unhidden

Dr. Dan - what others have you hidden? You said yesterday you'd told us all of them. This is not cool. These threads are not yours to hide once they have other people comment. 
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Josh Jacobs thread can't be found, so I assume it's hidden. 

I'd really like to talk about him if you can find that one.  Thanks

 
A lot of places are implying that Shurmur will use Gordon as the bell cow.  If that's the case, Lindsay is a nice handcuff as Gordon often misses 3-4 games.  But that's a huge fall from grace for a guy with back to back 1,000 yard seasons.  

 
Will Drew Lock be the second-best 2020 fantasy quarterback in the AFC West?

Excerpts:

There is a huge ADP disparity between Melvin Gordon (33.8) and Phillip Lindsay (115.3). Do you believe this is Gordon’s backfield to lose, or will we be seeing a 1A/1B situation in Denver, making them both valuable/usable in fantasy?

Dalton: I’m in on Gordon, as his contract suggests Denver is going to treat him as a workhorse. Lindsay is a fine runner but has an extremely low BMI and just finished 49th out of 50 backs in receiving DVOA, so Gordon should at minimum see all of the passing down and goal-line work. Gordon is coming off his worst season but dealt with a (poorly devised) holdout, led the NFL in broken tackles the previous two years, and is finally running behind an inside-zone scheme similar to the Wisconsin one in which he thrived during college. I’m not sold on Drew Lock, but having Courtland Sutton, Jerry Jeudy and Noah Fant as teammates should also help Gordon, whom I’ve been willing to draft aggressively this summer.

Liz: Lindsay has been a top-20 FF option in back-to-back seasons, showing off his 4.4 speed and explosiveness via double-digit breakaway runs over two consecutive efforts. Does that mean that the Broncos want to get all up in their feelings about a diminutively-sized underdog and make him their RB1? Apparently not. That’s why they added Gordon — a player who has averaged 3 red zone rushing attempts and over 4.5 targets per contest over three straight campaigns — and guaranteed the Chargers’ former bell cow $13.5 over two years. 

Given Gordon’s three-down skill set, in tandem with the team’s reluctance to commit fully to Lindsay, their respective ADPs appear appropriate. Gordon is a top-20 option (ADP = RB17) while Lindsay offers FLEX appeal (ADP = RB39). 

Andy: Lindsay has delivered back-to-back 1,000-yard seasons for Denver, running efficiently (4.9 YPC) and playing on a low-dollar deal. He’s given the team everything it could possibly want. So, naturally, the Broncos threw a buncha million bucks at a brand-name running back. Sure.

Gordon is obviously an excellent back and a capable receiver, plus he was paid like a featured runner. We have to assume he’s going to handle 65-70 percent of the backfield touches, with Lindsay in a rotational role. The ADPs of each player seem reasonable, given their likely roles. Lindsay is a very good back, but he’s hardly an ideal opening week fantasy starter.
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Liz: My colleagues have both made cogent arguments on behalf of Fant. I don’t disagree in the slightest. However, for the sake of variety, I’ll stan for Lindsay. As previously discussed, he’s an intriguing talent, who has outshined and outproduced his previous backfield-mate, despite not having the same draft pedigree. Denver may not want to make Lindsay their workhorse but were Gordon (who has a history of knee issues) to get hurt, then the local kid would find himself ready for another #glowup moment. Given his 12th-round ADP, he’s worth considering (especially if managers are loaded on WR and satisfied waiting on TE) as a FLEX option at a scarce position … with an immediate uptick in touches were things to go sideways.
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Biabreakable said:
Kind of weak return here but considering the timing of it, not too bad I guess.

Those 2nd round picks could be really late in a 16 team league.
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As of now one is projected to be top 5, the other mid-late, but of course that can change. It's funny, I thought it was a fair trade but a couple guys posted that it was unfair and I ripped him off.  :shrug:

 
JoeSteeler said:
As of now one is projected to be top 5, the other mid-late, but of course that can change. It's funny, I thought it was a fair trade but a couple guys posted that it was unfair and I ripped him off.  :shrug:
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In a 12 team league I can sort of talk myself into two 2nd round picks being worth a 1st round pick, which is the kind of return I would be looking for in a quality RB like Lindsay before they signed Gordon. Now that they signed Gordon awhile ago that wasn't going to happen.

Two 2nd round picks next year > than a 2nd round pick this year imo, even factoring for time value discount. So I think it was a fair deal, just not the return I would have liked to get for Lindsay when circumstances were better.

There are a lot of very good skill players on the Broncos now. It was more of a 2 man show last year.

I think its a fair deal I just have lingering thoughts about how good Lindsay is.

 
Phillip Lindsay added 10 pounds of muscle this offseason.

Lindsay said he wasn’t fully over his 2018 wrist injury despite playing in every game last year. He looks in good shape entering camp, but Lindsay doesn’t have much of a role with Melvin Gordon taking over as the Broncos’ lead back. Lindsay wore down over the final half of 2019, averaging 3.7 YPC in the final seven weeks. He’s a hedge play that’ll get a few COP touches behind Gordon.

SOURCE: Denver 7 News

Aug 14, 2020, 7:14 PM ET
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moleculo said:
Anyone else disagree with this?  I think Lindsay is the back to own here, especially given ADP disparity.
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I like lindsay and he's a great story and arguably a better runner than Gordon but he's a bad pass blocker and Gordon is capable of playing all 3 downs. NFL offenses run better with someone capable in the passing game. That's why they paid up for the top available free agent. Lindsey might get more than scraps but when would you take Gordon out for him?  The goal line?  Running the clock out?  When he's in, you telegraph that you're not throwing deep because he can't pick up a blitzer. Even if he gets a decent split of carries he's hardly someone you'd fantasize about starting in your lineup.  

He's a high upside backup rb who is more valuable as a handcuff/ lottery ticket than a standalone player. 

 
bostonfred said:
I like lindsay and he's a great story and arguably a better runner than Gordon but he's a bad pass blocker and Gordon is capable of playing all 3 downs. NFL offenses run better with someone capable in the passing game. That's why they paid up for the top available free agent. Lindsey might get more than scraps but when would you take Gordon out for him?  The goal line?  Running the clock out?  When he's in, you telegraph that you're not throwing deep because he can't pick up a blitzer. Even if he gets a decent split of carries he's hardly someone you'd fantasize about starting in your lineup.  

He's a high upside backup rb who is more valuable as a handcuff/ lottery ticket than a standalone player. 
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I don't recall Lindsay being a bad blocker.  I mean, he's not Orlando Pace but he did ok.  He wasn't the guy getting Flacco killed.  His hands aren't the best but if you get him the ball in space he's as dangerous as anyone.

I wasn't a big fan of Gordon before he was signed and i wasn't a fan of the signing.  I know he will get his with the money paid but IMO it will be more of a 50/50 split with Lindsey being the upside guy.  If Gordon is going for an early 3rd and Lindsay is an 8th, I'd pass on Gordon and target Lindsay in the 7th.

ETA: I think this is one of those "go with the hot hand" kind of rotation that drives FF nuts.  May be best to avoid both.

 
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Lindsay + Gordon reminds me of Fred Taylor + Maurice Jones-Drew. They both have some talent, but MG3/MJD gets the bulk of both the goal-line touches and the receptions while the other guy is left eating up rushing yards between the 20s.

 
ZWK said:
Lindsay + Gordon reminds me of Fred Taylor + Maurice Jones-Drew. They both have some talent, but MG3/MJD gets the bulk of both the goal-line touches and the receptions while the other guy is left eating up rushing yards between the 20s.
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I like Lindsay better personally, but this is a probable outcome. 

 
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