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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (11 Viewers)

BladeRunner said:
Yeah, tin-pot dictators don't fire employees.  They kill them.  Or imprison them (and then kill them).  Or they just disappear (because they've been killed).
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I don’t think this is a bad point. But authoritarian leaders or dictators do purges - democracies don’t.

And here and in the socialism threads you’re just lumping ideologies. - Here are some authoritarians who purged without killing - Huey Long, Juan Peron, Francisco Franco, Ferdinand Marcos, and quite a few others. 
- I’d also note on the imprisonments front what Barr and Trump are doing. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I don’t think this is a bad point. But authoritarian leaders or dictators do purges - democracies don’t.

And here and in the socialism threads you’re just lumping ideologies. - Here are some authoritarians who purged without killing - Huey Long, Juan Peron, Francisco Franco, Ferdinand Marcos, and quite a few others. 
- I’d also note on the imprisonments front what Barr and Trump are doing. 
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What?  ALL of those dictators had death squads that killed and "disappeared" people.

The simple fact is that Trump IS NOT a dictator.  Not even close.  He's not Hitler.  He's not Armageddon.  He's not the anti-Christ.  THAT'S the point I'm trying to make.  It's the over-the-top hyperbolic statements constantly being said not only on this board, but in the media.

Instead, people want to get stuck on petty semantics and word games so they can play "gotcha" so as to avoid the post.  Take a look at the point/idea of my post.

 
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BladeRunner said:
What?  ALL of those dictators had death squads that killed and "disappeared" people.

The simple fact is that Trump IS NOT a dictator.  Not even close.  He's not Hitler.  He's not Armageddon.  He's not the anti-Christ.  THAT'S the point I'm trying to make.  It's the over-the-top hyperbolic statements constantly being said not only on this board, but in the media.

Instead, people want to get stuck on petty semantics and word games so they can play "gotcha" so as to avoid the post.  Take a look at the point/idea of my post.
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I think it's more correct to call him a wannabe dictator.   There's still enough guardrails in our democracy to prevent him from getting there.

 
BladeRunner said:
With all due respect, this hysteria and hyperbole of "Trump is a Dictator", "Trump is like Hitler" is exactly what I'm talking about.  The fact that you even invoked "OMG!  HITLER!!" shows that I was correct in my original post.

Good job doubling down on proving my point.
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What dictator should I have used as a comparison? If someone wants to make nonsense arguments, I tend to think that providing factual proof of the nonsense is the best way to respond. It's pretty tough to respond to "Dictators don't do that" without referencing dictators who do it. On the other hand, it's much easier to respond as you do, putting up strawman arguments and ignoring actual facts. Good job on doubling down on your own nonsense.

 
apalmer said:
What dictator should I have used as a comparison? If someone wants to make nonsense arguments, I tend to think that providing factual proof of the nonsense is the best way to respond. It's pretty tough to respond to "Dictators don't do that" without referencing dictators who do it. On the other hand, it's much easier to respond as you do, putting up strawman arguments and ignoring actual facts. Good job on doubling down on your own nonsense.
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I edited my previous post, so you're missing some important context.

With all due respect, there is no nonsense going on except in your mind.  You don't get to reference Nazi Germany and then pretend you weren't talking about Hitler.

If all you're going to do is insult, then feel free to ignore my posts and move on.  We're all adults here.

 
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BladeRunner said:
I edited my previous post, so you're missing some important context.

With all due respect, there is no nonsense going on except in your mind.  You don't get to reference Nazi Germany and then pretend you weren't talking about Hitler.
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Exactly. There is no need to even bring it up. It’s not even close and it’s ridiculous.

 
BladeRunner said:
Okay, that's one.  and that's NOT really what people think of when they think of Dictators so I think you're mistaken by lumping him in with the others.  Louisiana isn't a independent country.
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It acted like one for a while.

I’ll add that the other example regimes also regularly purged people without killing them. They were administrative states.

And like I said we do know that democracies *don’t do purges.

 
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apalmer said:
What dictator should I have used as a comparison? 
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You shouldn’t. 

Trump is not a dictator. Whether he would be one if he could is irrelevant. He isn’t one. He’s a corrupt person with authoritarian tendencies who happens to be President of the United States. Comparing him to dictators does no good; comparing him to Hitler only makes conservatives and Trump supporters think that your crazy and extreme. 

I’ve come to the realization that the best way to reach people about Donald Trump is to point out the continual things he does wrong, but then let every person draw their own conclusions about how best to label that pattern of behavior. 

 
timschochet said:
You shouldn’t. 

Trump is not a dictator. Whether he would be one if he could is irrelevant. He isn’t one. He’s a corrupt person with authoritarian tendencies who happens to be President of the United States. Comparing him to dictators does no good; comparing him to Hitler only makes conservatives and Trump supporters think that your crazy and extreme. 

I’ve come to the realization that the best way to reach people about Donald Trump is to point out the continual things he does wrong, but then let every person draw their own conclusions about how best to label that pattern of behavior. 
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Thank-you, Tim!  :thumbup:

Yours is a very well said post and I appreciate it.

 
apalmer said:
What dictator should I have used as a comparison? If someone wants to make nonsense arguments, I tend to think that providing factual proof of the nonsense is the best way to respond. It's pretty tough to respond to "Dictators don't do that" without referencing dictators who do it. On the other hand, it's much easier to respond as you do, putting up strawman arguments and ignoring actual facts. Good job on doubling down on your own nonsense.
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Maybe Mayor Richard J, Daley.

 
BladeRunner said:
Are you serious?  You literally linked an article about Nazi Germany, with one of the sub-titles saying "Working towards The Fuhrer".  How is one supposed to NOT interpret that as a reference to Hitler?  The term "Nazi Germany" will ALWAYS be tied to Hitler.  That's not even debatable.

With all due respect, this hysteria and hyperbole of "Trump is a Dictator", "Trump is like Hitler" is exactly what I'm talking about.  The fact that you even invoked "OMG!  HITLER!!" shows that I was correct in my original post.

Good job doubling down on proving my point.
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“HE’S NOT HITLER!” is not the defense of an American President I’d thought I’d see in my lifetime.

 
Jackstraw said:
“HE’S NOT HITLER!” is not the defense of an American President I’d thought I’d see in my lifetime.
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Except no one besides you is saying that in defense of the President.  The posts are merely responses to other over-the-top posts saying he is (explicitly or implicitly).

I'm not even sure how you came to this conclusion.

 
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Phil Elliott said:
Vindman’s assignment to the White House was scheduled to end this summer and he had requested to leave the WH end of Feb. trump should have just left him leave in Feb.
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Obviously, Vindman did/said something very recently that the administration thought warranted immediate removal. They wouldn't just can a guy (and his twin brother who was not involved in any impeachment actions) to be simply petty and vindictive.

Oh, wait...

 
Guys, it's not like Trump has demanded a written loyalty oath to him, not the United States, from everyone in his cabinet or high position of our government and those that refused were ousted. If he did that, called the press the enemy of the people or had his own secret police force doing investigations without the knowledge of the government you might be on to something. 

 
Sheriff Bart said:
Guys, it's not like Trump has demanded a written loyalty oath to him, not the United States, from everyone in his cabinet or high position of our government and those that refused were ousted. If he did that, called the press the enemy of the people or had his own secret police force doing investigations without the knowledge of the government you might be on to something. 
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Look, he's not a dictator, ok? Dictators give themselves honorary titles and rename cities and monuments after themselves.

(Just wait until this happens, cuz it will)

 
dkp993 said:
Kinda like those on the right saying Bernie or Warren will turn us into Socialist.  🤔
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The difference is Bernie actually IS a socialist.  He's literally defended Castro and Ortega.  Took his honeymoon in Russia.  Also, he literally said it himself so no one is fear-mongering.

Warren is adopting almost all of his positions, so not sure how you can ignore that either.

Not really the same thing, IMO.

 
BladeRunner said:
The difference is Bernie actually IS a socialist.  He's literally defended Castro and Ortega.  Took his honeymoon in Russia.  Also, he literally said it himself so no one is fear-mongering.

Warren is adopting almost all of his positions, so not sure how you can ignore that either.

Not really the same thing, IMO.
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Is there any question Trump would be a Dictator if he could (just like how he’s run his businesses his whole life)? And yes Bernie would turn us Socialists if he could. Neither can and that’s the point.  Our institutions and structure of government won’t allow either.  

Now just like Trump is testing the boundaries (thus those that call him a Dictator) Bernie or Warren would too, but just like how the system has not allowed Trump to operate with impunity (like he NO DOUBT would like to) it would do the same for Bernie or Warren.   

Its fear mongering and lazy on both accounts.  

 
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dkp993 said:
Is there any question Trump would be a Dictator if he could (just like how he’s run his businesses his whole life)? And yes Bernie would turn us Socialists if he could. Neither can and that’s the point.  Our institutions and structure of government won’t allow either.  

Now just like Trump is testing the boundaries (thus those that call him a Dictator) Bernie or Warren would too, but just like how the system has not allowed Trump to operate with impunity (like he NO DOUBT would like to) it would do the same for Bernie or Warren.   

Its fear mongering and lazy on both accounts.  
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Disagree, but that's okay.  :thumbup:

 
Henry Ford said:
If you'd like this to happen, feel free to lobby your Congressman to change the whistleblower protection laws.
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Does it actually protect anonymity of whistleblowers?

From Wiki:

President Barack Obama issued Presidential Policy Directive 19 (PPD-19), entitled "Protecting Whistleblowers with Access to Classified Information". According to the directive signed by Obama on October 10, 2012, it is written that "this Presidential Policy Directive ensures that employees (1) serving in the Intelligence Community or (2) who are eligible for access to classified information can effectively report waste, fraud, and abuse while protecting classified national security information. It prohibits retaliation against employees for reporting waste, fraud, and abuse.[7]

However, according to a report that the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs submitted to accompany S. 743, "the federal whistleblowers have seen their protections diminish in recent years, largely as a result of a series of decisions by the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, which has exclusive jurisdiction over many cases brought under the Whistleblower Protection Act (WPA). Specifically, the Federal Circuit has accorded a narrow definition to the type of disclosure that qualifies for whistleblower protection. Additionally, the lack of remedies under current law for most whistleblowers in the intelligence community and for whistleblowers who face retaliation in the form of withdrawal of the employee's security clearance leaves unprotected those who are in a position to disclose wrongdoing that directly affects our national security."[8] S. 743 would address these problems by restoring the original congressional intent of the WPA to adequately protect whistleblowers, by strengthening the WPA, and by creating new whistleblower protections for intelligence employees and new protections for employees whose security clearance is withdrawn in retaliation for having made legitimate whistleblower disclosures.[9] S. 743 ultimately became Pub.L. 112-199 (S.Rep. 112-155).

Now if Trump fires this person after they are officially named, then that action would violate this.

 
KPD said:
Does it actually protect anonymity of whistleblowers?

From Wiki:

President Barack Obama issued Presidential Policy Directive 19 (PPD-19), entitled "Protecting Whistleblowers with Access to Classified Information". According to the directive signed by Obama on October 10, 2012, it is written that "this Presidential Policy Directive ensures that employees (1) serving in the Intelligence Community or (2) who are eligible for access to classified information can effectively report waste, fraud, and abuse while protecting classified national security information. It prohibits retaliation against employees for reporting waste, fraud, and abuse.[7]

However, according to a report that the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs submitted to accompany S. 743, "the federal whistleblowers have seen their protections diminish in recent years, largely as a result of a series of decisions by the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, which has exclusive jurisdiction over many cases brought under the Whistleblower Protection Act (WPA). Specifically, the Federal Circuit has accorded a narrow definition to the type of disclosure that qualifies for whistleblower protection. Additionally, the lack of remedies under current law for most whistleblowers in the intelligence community and for whistleblowers who face retaliation in the form of withdrawal of the employee's security clearance leaves unprotected those who are in a position to disclose wrongdoing that directly affects our national security."[8] S. 743 would address these problems by restoring the original congressional intent of the WPA to adequately protect whistleblowers, by strengthening the WPA, and by creating new whistleblower protections for intelligence employees and new protections for employees whose security clearance is withdrawn in retaliation for having made legitimate whistleblower disclosures.[9] S. 743 ultimately became Pub.L. 112-199 (S.Rep. 112-155).

Now if Trump fires this person after they are officially named, then that action would violate this.
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Even identifying him is to a great extent retaliation.  It’s not a specifically enumerated issue but it would clearly be a retaliatory act.  There’s a very good civil suit in that.

 
The Z Machine said:
Look, he's not a dictator, ok? Dictators give themselves honorary titles and rename cities and monuments after themselves.

(Just wait until this happens, cuz it will)
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We're back to "he hasn't ordered genocide or mass murder so how dare you make comparisons to  dictators". 

Sort of like the people arguing democrats sue to enforce subpoenas and turning over evidence, even though the law is clear that isn't necessary, and maybe there will be a ruling after the election he's trying to interfere in.  In other words, you need to wait and see if Trump takes the next step, when it's too late. 

 
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Henry Ford said:
Even identifying him is to a great extent retaliation.  It’s not a specifically enumerated issue but it would clearly be a retaliatory act.  There’s a very good civil suit in that.
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Plus I haven't heard a good argument why we need to reveal who the WB is other than "what's the big deal". 

 
Sheriff Bart said:
Plus I haven't heard a good argument why we need to reveal who the WB is other than "what's the big deal". 
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What is the reason to not identify them?  Like I said, the people that might take Trump’s words to violence already “know” who they are and nothing to my knowledge has been done.  Trump could decide to fire this person tomorrow before their identity is “known” and then the protections wouldn’t apply.

 
Sheriff Bart said:
Plus I haven't heard a good argument why we need to reveal who the WB is other than "what's the big deal". 
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Maybe because the suspected whistleblower has an ax to grind?  That his background working with Biden?  Maybe because he was caught saying hes going to get Trump?  That he coordinated with Adam Schiff and his staff?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/saw-everything-alleged-whistleblower-eric-ciaramella-had-extensive-access-in-trumps-white-house

There should be no debate onlooking into this guy.  They can't do it fast enough.

 
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