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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread***


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The quid pro quo discussion is a red herring. Sondland’s statement and testimony is proof that the President was running a shadow diplomacy operation using his private attorney outside of normal execu

I must say, as a cynic toward government I have been nothing but impressed and even proud of the career civil servants that are on display throughout this process.  It’s quite nice to see the working

The latest defense by Republicans has been thrown out there by Peter King: 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-whistleblower-peter-king-white-house

King says it’s wrong for private conversations of the President to be made public. Two questions for Rep. King: 

1. How do you figure that a conversation between President Trump and the Ukrainian President is a “private conversation”??? 

2. Ever heard of the Watergate tapes??? 

I should wonder if anybody will fall for this nonsense but of course they will. 

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2 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

I assume you mean this jokingly like Susan Collins or Jeff Flake being “troubled” before voting with Republicans.  If Trump’s guilt is obvious, conviction in the Senate is still a long-shot but I could see Romney and others voting to convict.

Doubtful

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53 minutes ago, timschochet said:

The latest defense by Republicans has been thrown out there by Peter King: 

https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-whistleblower-peter-king-white-house

King says it’s wrong for private conversations of the President to be made public. Two questions for Rep. King: 

1. How do you figure that a conversation between President Trump and the Ukrainian President is a “private conversation”??? 

2. Ever heard of the Watergate tapes??? 

I should wonder if anybody will fall for this nonsense but of course they will. 

Thank goodness King is taking a principled stand against any transparency whatsoever in our government. Truly the Lord’s work. 

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47 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

Thank goodness King is taking a principled stand against any transparency whatsoever in our government. Truly the Lord’s work. 

I used to think of King, who is from New York, as a moderate Republican. But then I used to think of Giuliani the same way, and they are actually quite similar. 

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Ukraine foreign minister says they were never pressured

https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/21/ukrainian-foreign-minister-prystaiko-defends-trump-talk-no-pressure/

meanwhile Biden brags about pressuring Ukraine to fire a Prosecutor

pretty cut and dried...Trump didn’t pressure anybody in Ukraine to do anything, while Biden proudly admits to pressuring Ukraine to fire a Prosecutor....

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14 minutes ago, FlapJacks said:

Of course not. Trump mentions Biden 8 times in the phone conversation, and the money that was pledged is held up and not released until after this whole whistleblower thing comes out. And when the money IS released it’s 150 billion more than originally promised. 

You’re not a stupid guy. Tell you what: how about we get a transcript of that phone call and then we can decide for ourselves? 

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9 minutes ago, bananafish said:

I couldn't tell if it was posted in jest or not. I mean, the supposition is so absurdly preposterous that no thinking human could possibly believe it, no?

But then the humiliating depths of inanity Trump fans are willing to stoop to on a daily basis just so he can spend another day selling out the country has been blowing my mind for years now. 

I can't imagine having so little self-respect or sense of morality, yet here we are...

Look, I’ve watched several Republican types today predict this is all a bunch of smoke, no fire, that the call was perfectly legitimate. I’m willing to accept that possibility. Let’s see the transcript. 

Somehow though I have a feeling that this phone transcript will be like Trump’s taxes- we will never see it. This week the Ukrainian President is coming to New York- he’s certainly happy he’s got his money, and I bet he will say that the call was fine, nothing wrong with it. And then Trump and all of his supporters will say “let’s move on” and the transcript of the call never turns up. 

Hope I’m wrong about all of this....

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5 hours ago, timschochet said:

Look, I’ve watched several Republican types today predict this is all a bunch of smoke, no fire, that the call was perfectly legitimate. I’m willing to accept that possibility. Let’s see the transcript. 

Something to keep in mind - the original reporting on the whistleblower complaint was that it encompassed more than the phone call.

Also - just think about Trump (and Giuliani) have admitted publicly - they have talked to Ukraine about investigating Joe and Hunter Biden.  That alone is an abuse of power - and should not be tolerated.  Imagine the precedence we are setting when we (collectively) deem that acceptable behavior from the President.  The founding fathers clearly could not imagine the world we live in today - but even they knew this was behavior that should result in an impeachment.

 

One of the things I don't really get about the actual story, or Trump's version - if Trump felt like Biden committed a criminal or fraudulent act - why not ask the FBI to investigate?

You would hope that one reason is that the FBI would tell Trump to pound sand, and that Trump would know that asking the FBI to investigate a political rival crosses the line.  So, how is asking Ukraine to to what the FBI couldn't/wouldn't any different?

 

 

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TAPPER: If Obama pressured a foreign leader to look into Don Jr, would you not find that inappropriate?

MNUCHIN: What I find inappropriate is Biden's son doing business in Ukraine

T: So it's okay for Don Jr & Ivanka but not for Biden?

M: I really don't want to go into details

 

 

derp

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3 hours ago, bananafish said:

I don't know who mtracey is, but the fact that you've swallowed the Trumpian propaganda that the Russia investigation was a farce and did not produce a 400-page report chock-full of scandalous behavior that would've doomed any other presidency is really pathetic, especially with your supposed distaste for dictatorships and the abuse of power. 

I'm not a big fan of the mainstream media, but everything they reported about the investigation (fake news produced by the enemy of the people according to Trump), was, without exception, proven 100% correct by the report. Trump fans love to forget about that little nugget or, more likely, Fox News "forgot" to tell them about it. 

That this guy has the gall to say the media's credibility has been obliterated and that they've shown zero accountability is Iraqi-Foreign-Minister-level shameless. I'd expect some of the other goons around here to try to propagate this garbage; it's 100% predictable as we all know they're incapable of independent thought.

I had higher regard for you but will make note of your withering standards. It's a shame, really. 

It's even simpler than that...MSM <> news.  That's not what they're in this for.  It's been abundantly clear for the better part of two decades.  If one is still under the illusion that the MSM is something other than a profit driving center they're doing it wrong.  People can :hophead: about what they think it SHOULD be, but that doesn't change reality even a little bit.  This is probably the most bizarre "gotcha" I've seen people walking around proudly proclaiming ever.  Everything from tweets like that to people trying to use their coverage as a gauge for anything meaningful.  The last thing these people should be talking about is awareness.

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Mnuchin really is not very good at this:

 

Mnuchin doesn't have a response when Chuck Todd asks him if he can explain "how all of the sudden when the [Ukraine] aid got released, more money showed up. Where did [it] come from?...They got an additional $140m they didn't expect"

"You're getting into details" Mnuchin says

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1175795697037324288

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4 hours ago, bananafish said:

I don't know who mtracey is, but the fact that you've swallowed the Trumpian propaganda that the Russia investigation was a farce and did not produce a 400-page report chock-full of scandalous behavior that would've doomed any other presidency is really pathetic, especially with your supposed distaste for dictatorships and the abuse of power. 

I'm not a big fan of the mainstream media, but everything they reported about the investigation (fake news produced by the enemy of the people according to Trump), was, without exception, proven 100% correct by the report. Trump fans love to forget about that little nugget or, more likely, Fox News "forgot" to tell them about it. 

That this guy has the gall to say the media's credibility has been obliterated and that they've shown zero accountability is Iraqi-Foreign-Minister-level shameless. I'd expect some of the other goons around here to try to propagate this garbage; it's 100% predictable as we all know they're incapable of independent thought.

I had higher regard for you but will make note of your withering standards. It's a shame, really. 

They’re not withering. They’ve been steady for three years. 

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13 hours ago, timschochet said:
15 hours ago, Juxtatarot said:

I think it’s highly likely Trump will be impeached on this.  Pelosi will make the right call.

I’m starting to have a feeling you’re right. This story changes things. 

No not enough republicans have the guts to stand up against Trump and the intelligence to understand things like this.  Trump could literally kill someone and he wouldn't be removed from office.

 

5 hours ago, bananafish said:
5 hours ago, ren hoek said:

@mtracey

The media has no awareness that their credibility to scream "SCANDAL" and "IMPEACHMENT" has been completely obliterated by the years-long Russia farce, for which there has been zero accountability. They just pretend like nothing happened 

I don't know who mtracey is, but the fact that you've swallowed the Trumpian propaganda that the Russia investigation was a farce and did not produce a 400-page report chock-full of scandalous behavior that would've doomed any other presidency is really pathetic, especially with your supposed distaste for dictatorships and the abuse of power. 

I'm not a big fan of the mainstream media, but everything they reported about the investigation (fake news produced by the enemy of the people according to Trump), was, without exception, proven 100% correct by the report. Trump fans love to forget about that little nugget or, more likely, Fox News "forgot" to tell them about it. 

That this guy has the gall to say the media's credibility has been obliterated and that they've shown zero accountability is Iraqi-Foreign-Minister-level shameless. I'd expect some of the other goons around here to try to propagate this garbage; it's 100% predictable as we all know they're incapable of independent thought.

I had higher regard for you but will make note of your withering standards. It's a shame, really. 

You did? Why's that?  Shame on you!

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This is a ### ####ed travesty.

 

I've made this comparison before, and got no traction.  Maybe there aren't enough sci-fi nerds:  On season 3 or 4 of Battlestar Galactica, the sleazy doctor rigged the election for the leadership of the ship/people.  Almost immediately, he had arranged a "truce" with the cylons -- meaning they surrendered to the cylons who subjugated the humans and put them in concentration camps.  He was completely over his head, inept, and corrupt.  He knew he had given away his people, felt bad about it, but could do nothing to stop it.

I don't know.  The show came on about 10 years ago.  I may be mis-remembering the details. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, FlapJacks said:

Ukraine foreign minister says they were never pressured

https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/21/ukrainian-foreign-minister-prystaiko-defends-trump-talk-no-pressure/

meanwhile Biden brags about pressuring Ukraine to fire a Prosecutor

pretty cut and dried...Trump didn’t pressure anybody in Ukraine to do anything, while Biden proudly admits to pressuring Ukraine to fire a Prosecutor....

He is feeling pressured "to say"  he was never pressured.

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9 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

This is a ### ####ed travesty.

 

I've made this comparison before, and got no traction.  Maybe there aren't enough sci-fi nerds:  On season 3 or 4 of Battlestar Galactica, the sleazy doctor rigged the election for the leadership of the ship/people.  Almost immediately, he had arranged a "truce" with the cylons -- meaning they surrendered to the cylons who subjugated the humans and put them in concentration camps.  He was completely over his head, inept, and corrupt.  He knew he had given away his people, felt bad about it, but could do nothing to stop it.

I don't know.  The show came on about 10 years ago.  I may be mis-remembering the details. 

 

 

Spoiler tags, dude. 

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13 minutes ago, Sweet J said:

This is a ### ####ed travesty.

 

I've made this comparison before, and got no traction.  Maybe there aren't enough sci-fi nerds:  On season 3 or 4 of Battlestar Galactica, the sleazy doctor rigged the election for the leadership of the ship/people.  Almost immediately, he had arranged a "truce" with the cylons -- meaning they surrendered to the cylons who subjugated the humans and put them in concentration camps.  He was completely over his head, inept, and corrupt.  He knew he had given away his people, felt bad about it, but could do nothing to stop it.

I don't know.  The show came on about 10 years ago.  I may be mis-remembering the details. 

 

 

Who gives a frack? 

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2 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

Something to keep in mind - the original reporting on the whistleblower complaint was that it encompassed more than the phone call.

Also - just think about Trump (and Giuliani) have admitted publicly - they have talked to Ukraine about investigating Joe and Hunter Biden.  That alone is an abuse of power - and should not be tolerated.  Imagine the precedence we are setting when we (collectively) deem that acceptable behavior from the President.  The founding fathers clearly could not imagine the world we live in today - but even they knew this was behavior that should result in an impeachment.

 

One of the things I don't really get about the actual story, or Trump's version - if Trump felt like Biden committed a criminal or fraudulent act - why not ask the FBI to investigate?

You would hope that one reason is that the FBI would tell Trump to pound sand, and that Trump would know that asking the FBI to investigate a political rival crosses the line.  So, how is asking Ukraine to to what the FBI couldn't/wouldn't any different?

 

 

He didn’t think he would get caught. Ukraine is a country known for its corrupt politicians. He thought they would play ball and not say anything. I bet this is just the tip of the iceberg.

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9 hours ago, FlapJacks said:

Ukraine foreign minister says they were never pressured

https://dailycaller.com/2019/09/21/ukrainian-foreign-minister-prystaiko-defends-trump-talk-no-pressure/

meanwhile Biden brags about pressuring Ukraine to fire a Prosecutor

pretty cut and dried...Trump didn’t pressure anybody in Ukraine to do anything, while Biden proudly admits to pressuring Ukraine to fire a Prosecutor....

This is a non-denial denial.

Quote

 

"Those people who are engaged in Ukrainian-American relations understand that we have always tried to appreciate assistance from both parties. This assistance allowed us to ensure that with the change of administration, we will not change the priorities in relations with the United States," the minister explained.

"President Trump is interested, his advisor, [Rudolph] Giuliani, newspapers, Democrats, Republicans are interested in whether pressure had been put on Ukraine. I want to say that we are an independent state, we have our own secrets,” Prystaiko stressed.

“I know what the conversation was about and I think there was no pressure. There was talk, conversations are different, leaders have the right to discuss any problems that exist. This conversation was long, friendly, and it touched on a lot of questions, including those requiring serious answers,” Prystaiko summarized.

Ukraine news site which is DC's source.

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24 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

He didn’t think he would get caught. Ukraine is a country known for its corrupt politicians. He thought they would play ball and not say anything. I bet this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Yeah, Trump really should have read the "Foreign Elections Thread" where we were talking about Zelensky representing some hope for change there when he was elected.  

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Guiliani indicated this morning that the White House will fight to prevent Congress from getting hold of the transcript. No big surprise there. 

But it puts the Democrats in the same trap as before: they can go to court to get that transcript but that could take months or years and in the meantime this story dies and the Democrats look weak and their base is demoralized. Or they could start impeachment right now which would legally force the issue, but then much of the public might believe that they are doing it for partisan reasons (since there is no clear evidence yet) and what if the transcript turns out to be bland or confusing? I’m sure this is Pelosi’s biggest concern. 

I’m convinced that they have to impeach. But I wonder if they are. 

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Guiliani also offered the “no quid pro quo” defense, which will no doubt be parroted by all of Trump’s defenders: it’s perfectly fine for Trump to request info on Biden if no promise is made. 

I’d like to think that this sort of argument will finally be too much for the American public to accept, but we’ll have to see. 

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9 hours ago, timschochet said:

Of course not. Trump mentions Biden 8 times in the phone conversation, and the money that was pledged is held up and not released until after this whole whistleblower thing comes out. And when the money IS released it’s 150 billion more than originally promised. 

You’re not a stupid guy. Tell you what: how about we get a transcript of that phone call and then we can decide for ourselves? 

Exactly. Seems simple enough. Let the people whose job it is see the transcripts, see them.

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10 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Guiliani indicated this morning that the White House will fight to prevent Congress from getting hold of the transcript. No big surprise there. 

But it puts the Democrats in the same trap as before: they can go to court to get that transcript but that could take months or years and in the meantime this story dies and the Democrats look weak and their base is demoralized. Or they could start impeachment right now which would legally force the issue, but then much of the public might believe that they are doing it for partisan reasons (since there is no clear evidence yet) and what if the transcript turns out to be bland or confusing? I’m sure this is Pelosi’s biggest concern. 

I’m convinced that they have to impeach. But I wonder if they are. 

Giuliani is just there to confuse, take headlines, complicate an issue. Nothing he says matters or can be taken seriously.

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Amid Trump-Biden Tug-Of-War, Anxious Ukraine Ponders How To Proceed

>>Sources with knowledge of discussions inside Zelenskiy's administration tell RFE/RL that his chief of staff, Andriy Bohdan, has imposed a strict policy about not speaking publicly on the issue until the president decides how to proceed.<<

 

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I guess it's just a coincidence that Trump asked for some election help against a guy beating him by an average 11 points in the national polls. Or have we moved on from this part already to the stage where we just watch Trump and Rudy use the stacked courts and Justice Department to obstruct any investigation?

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7 hours ago, ren hoek said:

@mtracey

The media has no awareness that their credibility to scream "SCANDAL" and "IMPEACHMENT" has been completely obliterated by the years-long Russia farce, for which there has been zero accountability. They just pretend like nothing happened 

How do you square this with the fact it was a Trump appointee who deemed the claim "credible and urgent" and its the Republicans who are violating the law by refusing to hand the claim over to Congress? Why would that not be a scandal?

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11 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

Amid Trump-Biden Tug-Of-War, Anxious Ukraine Ponders How To Proceed

>>Sources with knowledge of discussions inside Zelenskiy's administration tell RFE/RL that his chief of staff, Andriy Bohdan, has imposed a strict policy about not speaking publicly on the issue until the president decides how to proceed.<<

 

Sounds like he’d make a good Senate Republican. 

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3 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

TAPPER: If Obama pressured a foreign leader to look into Don Jr, would you not find that inappropriate?

MNUCHIN: What I find inappropriate is Biden's son doing business in Ukraine

T: So it's okay for Don Jr & Ivanka but not for Biden?

M: I really don't want to go into details

 

 

derp

Can't...tell...if...real...or...Onion...

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27 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Guiliani also offered the “no quid pro quo” defense, which will no doubt be parroted by all of Trump’s defenders: it’s perfectly fine for Trump to request info on Biden if no promise is made. 

I’d like to think that this sort of argument will finally be too much for the American public to accept, but we’ll have to see. 

Oh Tim, you naive fool.

Half the country thinks Trump didn't go far enough to stop the evil Hunter Biden from doing whatever Trump tells them that he thinks Biden shouldn't have been doing.

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13 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

How do you square this with the fact it was a Trump appointee who deemed the claim "credible and urgent" and its the Republicans who are violating the law by refusing to hand the claim over to Congress? Why would that not be a scandal?

I think we need to be careful talking about the IG as a "Trump appointee".

 

It is true, in a technical sense, but I think it leaves the impression that the IG is a Trump flunky, and I doubt that is the case.  The IG is not an Obama deep-state appointee, but I doubt he has taken the Trump loyalty pledge.

 

Having said that - for those that doubt the veracity or seriousness of the allegations, consider:

 

1.  Someone in the Intelligence Service risked his/her job to file the complaint.  This person may be "anti-Trump" but, given the position they are in to have the information necessary to file the complaint suggests they are a career employee, who has risen through the ranks based on merit.  I don't think they file the complaint on just Trump being stupid.  Whoever filed the complaint believes there to be a national security issue.  That should be the first sign this is not simply a difference in policy.

 

2.  The Inspector General this the complaint is "credible and urgent" . Again, taking out the "Trump Appointee" we are left with a career lawyer - who, even since the complaint, take his job and reporting responsibilities, very seriously.  That he still has not disclosed the contents to Congress speaks to his professionalism and seriousness.

 

3.  Acting DNI Maguire thinks this is a serious and credible issue.  How do we know this?  Based on how he has reacted.  If this is a run-of-the-mill complaint, without merit, he handles this issue on his own.  Instead, we know he ran to DOJ and the White House when he got the complaint, and only after being advised by DOJ did he refuse to carry out his stautory duty and pass it on to Congress.  Maguire knows this is credible and serious.

 

4.  DOJ thinks this is serious.  Again, if this is a nothingburger - DOJ would not even have handled it, let alone advise the Acting DNI to bury the complaint.  DOJ, on behalf of the White House, is worried about the allegations.

 

5.  White House thinks this is serious.  They have instructed DNI to not comply with statutory disclosure laws.  Trump has already admitted the thrust of the complaint that he spoke with Ukraine about investigating BIden - but argue that he is entitled to do that as President.  And, you have the White House talking out of both sides of its mouth:  Trump: "Release the tape" . Trump Advisers: "We will not be releasing the tape."

 

 

So far, everyone who has seen the complaint has treated it as both credible, and serious.  Nobody should be thinking otherwise.

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48 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Guiliani also offered the “no quid pro quo” defense, which will no doubt be parroted by all of Trump’s defenders: it’s perfectly fine for Trump to request info on Biden if no promise is made. "

I’d like to think that this sort of argument will finally be too much for the American public to accept, but we’ll have to see. 

"No quid pro quo" will be this scandal's version of "no collusion". 

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48 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Guiliani indicated this morning that the White House will fight to prevent Congress from getting hold of the transcript. No big surprise there. 

But it puts the Democrats in the same trap as before: they can go to court to get that transcript but that could take months or years and in the meantime this story dies and the Democrats look weak and their base is demoralized. Or they could start impeachment right now which would legally force the issue, but then much of the public might believe that they are doing it for partisan reasons (since there is no clear evidence yet) and what if the transcript turns out to be bland or confusing? I’m sure this is Pelosi’s biggest concern. 

I’m convinced that they have to impeach. But I wonder if they are. 

Release a redacted version of the transcript redacted by co chairs intelligence committee and IG. we don’t care about discussion of other matters

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31 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

How do you square this with the fact it was a Trump appointee who deemed the claim "credible and urgent" and its the Republicans who are violating the law by refusing to hand the claim over to Congress? Why would that not be a scandal?

Because the Trump administration, which for YEARS went on and on about NO CONTACT WITH RUSSIANS, are to be trusted.

The media is not to be trusted, because they had the nerve to point out that wasn't true.

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Just now, timschochet said:

Guiliani also offered the “no quid pro quo” defense, which will no doubt be parroted by all of Trump’s defenders: it’s perfectly fine for Trump to request info on Biden if no promise is made. 

I’d like to think that this sort of argument will finally be too much for the American public to accept, but we’ll have to see. 

So in other words, "Ukraine, if you're listening...."

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7 minutes ago, Sinn Fein said:

I think we need to be careful talking about the IG as a "Trump appointee".

 

It is true, in a technical sense, but I think it leaves the impression that the IG is a Trump flunky, and I doubt that is the case.  The IG is not an Obama deep-state appointee, but I doubt he has taken the Trump loyalty pledge.

Seems fair. IDK how the IG is appointed but assumed it was by the President or one of his people. I guess the main point is Atkinson took the position in '18 and was not an Obama holdover. 

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Just now, Amused to Death said:

Seems fair. IDK how the IG is appointed but assumed it was by the President or one of his people. I guess the main point is Atkinson took the position in '18 and was not an Obama holdover. 

He is a Trump appointee - but I think there is a difference between being appointed by Trump and being beholden to Trump.  Many of the senior leaders Trump has appointed are beholden to Trump - but the further you get from the top, and its just another political appointment, and my recollection is this guy has the qualifications for his job, not simply a Trump Loyalist.

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Inspectors general are a specialized office requiring certification and they’re typically insulated from political influence. Obviously there can be good and bad ones but at the federal level bad or partisan ones are rare. It doesn’t mean they’re immune to political or bureaucratic pressure. They typically report to legislative bodies. However in the ODNI (like the DOJ & the AG) the IG reports to the Director, hence his report goes to him, not directly to Congress.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006
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