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***Official Donald J. Trump Impeachment (Whistleblower) Thread*** (2 Viewers)

Sweet J said:
What I find remarkable is that, even a year or two ago, there was a healthy split between "thoughtful liberals" and "thoughtful conservatives" on this board.  And it was ALMOST even in the give and take, back and forth.  I'd even go so far as to call the "thoughtful conservatives" Republicans.  It was a fairly even split between R's and D's.

All those R's that gave as good as they got -- Cristo, Yankee23, Ivan, Jamny, Kal El, shader, The Commish.  All of them are saying that they see a serious problem with the President.  I wouldn't be suprised if they vote Dem (for the first time in their lives?) next election. 

There are some that I could have sworn were conservative, but now I think I may be mis-remembering (godsbrother? Gr00vus?, BigJim? mario cart? KCitons?). 
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I've always been very liberal, though I try to be a pragmatic one.

 
Sweet J said:
What I find remarkable is that, even a year or two ago, there was a healthy split between "thoughtful liberals" and "thoughtful conservatives" on this board.  And it was ALMOST even in the give and take, back and forth.  I'd even go so far as to call the "thoughtful conservatives" Republicans.  It was a fairly even split between R's and D's.

All those R's that gave as good as they got -- Cristo, Yankee23, Ivan, Jamny, Kal El, shader, The Commish.  All of them are saying that they see a serious problem with the President.  I wouldn't be suprised if they vote Dem (for the first time in their lives?) next election. 

There are some that I could have sworn were conservative, but now I think I may be mis-remembering (godsbrother? Gr00vus?, BigJim? mario cart? KCitons?). 
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I personally haven't been a Republican for years(mostly a somewhat conservative libertarian, but trying to stay open-minded), but I do see your point.

 
The Z Machine said:
Does he/she have "acting" in their job title?
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haha.   He's the "principal deputy," who acts by default.  I'm not sure if he is technically acting, because he's a pretty savvy guy, and doesn't throw the "acting" around.  It's a fairly low-level senate confirmed position that folks probably don't pay too much attention to. 

 
Sweet J said:
What I find remarkable is that, even a year or two ago, there was a healthy split between "thoughtful liberals" and "thoughtful conservatives" on this board. 
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Interesting. Thanks.

But that isn't my recollection at all. 

Are you making a point about "thoughtful" or "healthy"?

In other words, would you say "even a year or two ago, there was a roughly even split between liberals and conservatives on this board."?

 
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Joe Bryant said:
Interesting. Thanks.

But that isn't my recollection at all. 

Are you making a point about "thoughtful" or "healthy"?

In other words, would you say "even a year or two ago, there was a roughly even split between liberals and conservatives on this board."?
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I can't speak for sweet J,  but I think I agree with his point. 

It isn't that there was a mathematically even 50/50 split.  It's the quality of political discourse. 

An argument between Republicans and Democrats or conservatives and liberals - on this board or among friends- used to be an argument between people who defended their positions.  When we debated healthcare we discussed all kinds of options, not just Obamacare. There were pages of conversation about single payer or private healthcare or the mandate and whether you could do anything about insurance companies refusing to pay for preexisting conditions and how to pay for it. When we discussed gay marriage there were long debates about whether the government should be involved in marriage to begin with, the tax code, possible abuses, religious beliefs, a possible constitutional amendment, and so on. 

All of the respected conservative posters from that time have said trump has taken this too far.  That's admirable and it's one of the reasons they have always been respected and we've had so many good debates over the years. 

There is another group who are indistinguishable from bots in the way they parrot conservative websites and Facebook pages that are increasingly being uncovered as fronts for Russian troll farms.  One of them spent months pushing the now debunked pizzagate conspiracy theory, a theory which led to actual violence.  

That's not just happening here. It's rampant. It's virtually impossible to find healthy discussion of conservative and liberal viewpoints anymore.  It's completely devolved.  

 
bostonfred said:
Joe Bryant said:
Interesting. Thanks.

But that isn't my recollection at all. 

Are you making a point about "thoughtful" or "healthy"?

In other words, would you say "even a year or two ago, there was a roughly even split between liberals and conservatives on this board."?
Click to expand...
I can't speak for sweet J,  but I think I agree with his point. 

It isn't that there was a mathematically even 50/50 split.  It's the quality of political discourse. 

An argument between Republicans and Democrats or conservatives and liberals - on this board or among friends- used to be an argument between people who defended their positions.  When we debated healthcare we discussed all kinds of options, not just Obamacare. There were pages of conversation about single payer or private healthcare or the mandate and whether you could do anything about insurance companies refusing to pay for preexisting conditions and how to pay for it. When we discussed gay marriage there were long debates about whether the government should be involved in marriage to begin with, the tax code, possible abuses, religious beliefs, a possible constitutional amendment, and so on. 

All of the respected conservative posters from that time have said trump has taken this too far.  That's admirable and it's one of the reasons they have always been respected and we've had so many good debates over the years. 

There is another group who are indistinguishable from bots in the way they parrot conservative websites and Facebook pages that are increasingly being uncovered as fronts for Russian troll farms.  One of them spent months pushing the now debunked pizzagate conspiracy theory, a theory which led to actual violence.  

That's not just happening here. It's rampant. It's virtually impossible to find healthy discussion of conservative and liberal viewpoints anymore.  It's completely devolved.  
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Exactly!!!!!!!!! Great point!

 
Joe Bryant said:
Interesting. Thanks.

But that isn't my recollection at all. 

Are you making a point about "thoughtful" or "healthy"?

In other words, would you say "even a year or two ago, there was a roughly even split between liberals and conservatives on this board."?
Click to expand...
It's going to be hard for me to respond without sounding snarky, but I'll try -- a few years ago, we had really hearty (and, non-trolling from either side) debates between liberals and conservatives on this board.  Off the top of my head, the "bannermen" for the conservative point include those I list above, for example (Yankee23, IvanK, shader, Hulk?, Kal El, The Commish, Christo (although he boardered on trolling - sorry buddy!), Jamny, and a few others that I can't remember off the top of my head.  But there were a TON of them.  Maybe call them center-right.  These are folks that were conservative, but not necessarily because of the culture wars.  For lack of a better term, let's refer to them as the "Joe Bryant conservatives." 

They had healthy debates with the BigBotttom, bostonfred, scoobygang, fatguy, DW, Henry Ford, krista, type posters (maybe add Maurile here from before he was an Admin; he generally stays out of the fray today).  I'd consider these guys center-left.  There was a lot of good back and forth between the thoughtful conservatives and thoughtful center-left, and I like to think that I learned a lot watching these debates.  

It appears that almost ALL of the solidly conservative, thoughtful, analytical posters have declared that they cannot support Trump.  Not as a person, or a president.  I'd be shocked if any of them end up voting for them.

Then there were folks who were a little more to the right (right-right posters), and would tend to dig in on cultural stuff.  I think many still support Trump.  

Then there were left-left posters.  I happened to agree with them mostly, but they tended to rile up the conservatives more than others. 

It feels like the last two sets of groups do 90% of the arguing here.

I think these boards are a great place to discuss ideas and to argue.  I don't think it has "gone downhill."  Rather, Trump's actions are SO indefensible, that the people who used to be the mainstay for the "conservative" position don't engage anymore, really.  

Once Trump goes and we are back to normal, we'll have good discussions again.  This place has been around 15 years, we can survive this. 

Edit:  I think my post worked just as well without calling out posters in the last two groups.

 
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bostonfred said:
All of the respected conservative posters from that time have said trump has taken this too far.  That's admirable and it's one of the reasons they have always been respected and we've had so many good debates over the years. 
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Part B of this point is that all those who have said Trump took it too far have been converted to "the left" by the bot type characters you bring up.  Let's face it, we weren't really ever conservatives since we've turned our backs on Trump and his crapfest of an administration.

 
bostonfred said:
I can't speak for sweet J,  but I think I agree with his point. 

It isn't that there was a mathematically even 50/50 split.  It's the quality of political discourse. 

An argument between Republicans and Democrats or conservatives and liberals - on this board or among friends- used to be an argument between people who defended their positions.  When we debated healthcare we discussed all kinds of options, not just Obamacare. There were pages of conversation about single payer or private healthcare or the mandate and whether you could do anything about insurance companies refusing to pay for preexisting conditions and how to pay for it. When we discussed gay marriage there were long debates about whether the government should be involved in marriage to begin with, the tax code, possible abuses, religious beliefs, a possible constitutional amendment, and so on. 

All of the respected conservative posters from that time have said trump has taken this too far.  That's admirable and it's one of the reasons they have always been respected and we've had so many good debates over the years. 

There is another group who are indistinguishable from bots in the way they parrot conservative websites and Facebook pages that are increasingly being uncovered as fronts for Russian troll farms.  One of them spent months pushing the now debunked pizzagate conspiracy theory, a theory which led to actual violence.  

That's not just happening here. It's rampant. It's virtually impossible to find healthy discussion of conservative and liberal viewpoints anymore.  It's completely devolved.  
Click to expand...
Is it possible that the reason for this is that the only people left willing to defend Trump are the subset that will NEVER admit that he's wrong and that THAT is a good thing.  IOW, isn't it possible that while Trump holds 90% favorability among Republicans that the pool of people willing to self-identify as "Republican" is shrinking?   Which would also be a good thing (at least for those of us who see him as a blight on the nation).

As always, just my opinion.

 
Thanks @Sweet J  That's helpful to see where you're coming from even if it's not how I see it or how I recall it. But I'm way more interested in how others see things. I also think it's super interesting to be seen as conservative and have voted for the Democratic presidential candidate the last three elections. But that's a different discussion. Thanks for sharing. It's definitely an interesting time. 

 
Sweet J said:
Once Trump goes and we are back to normal, we'll have good discussions again.  This place has been around 15 years, we can survive this. 
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I hope you're right but like @fatguyinalittlecoat I'm not sure. I fear we've so vilified both sides, and this feels so much like it's become a sport of "combat", regardless of President Trump, that we may never go back. 

That it becomes impossible to support limits on immigration without being a monster or supporting gun control without hating America. 

Hoping for the best. We'll see I guess.

 
beef said:
Jesus laid it out pretty simple.  Love God.  Love your Neighbor.  I find more Conservatives say the first, while more Liberals say and do the second.  And the second is equally important.

Matthew 22:36-40
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Thanks @beef

That's super interesting and something I've never really thought about with which one people lean toward. I don't disagree with you. I also wonder how many people would agree with you that they're equally important. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
We can just disagree there.

I'm fascinated with the 3rd point. "This board may not mirror the general public exactly".

On a scale of 1 (board completely mirrors the general public) to 10 (board completely does NOT mirror the public), what number would you say?
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As a fairly neutral observer it seems I see way more anti-Trump stuff than I do pro-Trump stuff but it is usually from the same handful of posters on both sides - they just seem like more because they never seem to take a break from posting here.

 
beef said:
Jesus laid it out pretty simple.  Love God.  Love your Neighbor.  I find more Conservatives say the first, while more Liberals say and do the second.  And the second is equally important.

Matthew 22:36-40
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I do my best to follow both. It's not easy, I'm not always successful, but it's worth it.

 
Joe Bryant said:
We can just disagree there.

I'm fascinated with the 3rd point. "This board may not mirror the general public exactly".

On a scale of 1 (board completely mirrors the general public) to 10 (board completely does NOT mirror the public), what number would you say?
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Bumping for @Sinn Fein

 
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I don't think Conservatives fall short on the Love thy Neighbor front.  They donate time, money and food.  Perhaps they are more inclined to act locally, and to donate to religious charities.  As a somewhat-conservative, I have often been distressed by the liberals' desire to love thy neighbor with Proteus' money and without Proteus' concurrence.  😀

 
Joe Bryant said:
We can just disagree there.

I'm fascinated with the 3rd point. "This board may not mirror the general public exactly".

On a scale of 1 (board completely mirrors the general public) to 10 (board completely does NOT mirror the public), what number would you say?
Click to expand...
It's a lot closer to 10 than 1, but it's probably fluid more than static.  

Did I hedge enough?

I'll say 7.5.

I reserve the right to revise and extend my remarks.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks @beef

That's super interesting and something I've never really thought about with which one people lean toward. I don't disagree with you. I also wonder how many people would agree with you that they're equally important. 
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They wouldn't be agreeing with me.  Being equally important are Jesus' words, not mine.

I've been pondering this for some time.  I've always been more of a Love God person, while my far-left liberal, atheist, wife has been way more Love your Neighbor.  I didn't hate others, but I certaining didn't do my best to show them love.  Ironic as it may be, it was an atheist that lead me to live closer to Christ's words.

When I say "I find", it's a general feeling I get from those in my life.  Not necessarily my take on the country or world.  

 
proteus126 said:
I don't think Conservatives fall short on the Love thy Neighbor front.  They donate time, money and food.  Perhaps they are more inclined to act locally, and to donate to religious charities.  As a somewhat-conservative, I have often been distressed by the liberals' desire to love thy neighbor with Proteus' money and without Proteus' concurrence.  😀
Click to expand...
That's an interesting experience. For my part, in my experience, conservatives I know are more likely to donate time and money to their churches or other organizations they derive a personal benefit from (museums they visit, for instance) instead of organizations that exclusively help others.  Whereas the most liberal people I've known have been the poorest, and also the most likely to quite literally give their last dollar or own possessions to help someone in need.

 
Henry Ford said:
Well, I'd imagine most of the atheists would be on my side on that one.
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Not me.

I strive to be courteous to everyone.  To treat everyone justly. To be empathetic and kind and consider other people's feelings. I've tried to instill these notions in my children.

But- I reserve love for people close to me, people I know well. I don't feel the need to love my neighbors or anyone else indiscriminately. And in fact, if I judge someone to be a bad person, I don't think I need to love them at all.

 
timschochet said:
Not me.

I strive to be courteous to everyone.  To treat everyone justly. To be empathetic and kind and consider other people's feelings. I've tried to instill these notions in my children.

But- I reserve love for people close to me, people I know well. I don't feel the need to love my neighbors or anyone else indiscriminately. And in fact, if I judge someone to be a bad person, I don't think I need to love them at all.
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You're an atheist and you think loving God is as important or more important than loving your neighbor?

 
Henry Ford said:
That's an interesting experience. For my part, in my experience, conservatives I know are more likely to donate time and money to their churches or other organizations they derive a personal benefit from (museums they visit, for instance) instead of organizations that exclusively help others.  Whereas the most liberal people I've known have been the poorest, and also the most likely to quite literally give their last dollar or own possessions to help someone in need.
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That's a bummer. I'm sorry that's been your experience. Shame on Christians there. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
I hope you're right but like @fatguyinalittlecoat I'm not sure. I fear we've so vilified both sides, and this feels so much like it's become a sport of "combat", regardless of President Trump, that we may never go back. 

That it becomes impossible to support limits on immigration without being a monster or supporting gun control without hating America. 

Hoping for the best. We'll see I guess.
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:goodposting:

I think things started getting bad when Clinton was president and have progressively gotten worse through GWB and Obama.   Hillary would have gotten worse treatment than Obama but Trump is on another level and produces much more vitriol due to his caustic personality and disregard for the truth.  A President Pence would be still be criticized by the left but I doubt you would see the hate that you see for Trump.     It is more than just politics with Trump.

 
Henry Ford said:
You're an atheist and you think loving God is as important or more important than loving your neighbor?
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If one believes in God, sure. More important, because a religious person places God at the center of one's life.

For me, as an atheist, neither is important. What's important to me is treat the people I love in a way that consistently demonstrates it, and to treat everyone else with respect.

 
Joe Bryant said:
That's a bummer. I'm sorry that's been your experience. Shame on Christians there. 
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Is it?  I don't know.  Somewhere around 40% of all charitable giving in this country is given to religious organizations.  And places like museums are important. I have a hard time saying that one's charitable giving shouldn't go to something one likes - presumably it will have value for others as well, and if it is truly important to you it may be truly important to those other people.  

There's nothing wrong with giving to charitable causes whose work you personally appreciate.  Just a different mindset, I expect.

 
timschochet said:
If one believes in God, sure. More important, because a religious person places God at the center of one's life.

For me, as an atheist, neither is important. What's important to me is treat the people I love in a way that consistently demonstrates it, and to treat everyone else with respect.
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Maybe we're just quibbling about the definition of "loving" one's neighbor.

"Act always such that you treat humanity, whether in yourself or in another person, as an end and never as a means only."  "Love thy neighbor as thyself."  I don't think those two are really that far off in potential meanings.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks @beef

That's super interesting and something I've never really thought about with which one people lean toward. I don't disagree with you. I also wonder how many people would agree with you that they're equally important. 
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JMHO, I think it's more nuanced than that biblical description. I'm not a pure blood conservative across the board, but where I lean most conservative is tax/spend and a general cynicism that big government is best suited to solve 'my neighbor' concerns in the manner we've recently done it. I think it's all too easy for one to say "I support doing X to help my neighbor" while passing the economic pain for that righteousness to my children/grandchildren via a spiraling deficit. We've accomplished a lot in the past 50 years IMHO, but one area we've failed miserably is shouldering the pain that comes with altruism.  

 
Henry Ford said:
Maybe we're just quibbling about the definition of "loving" one's neighbor.

"Act always such that you treat humanity, whether in yourself or in another person, as an end and never as a means only."  "Love thy neighbor as thyself."  I don't think those two are really that far off in potential meanings.
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OK I can accept this.

 
@LindseyGraham: “Have heard on numerous occasions disturbing allegations by @RudyGiuliani about corruption in Ukraine and the many improprieties surrounding the firing of former Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin.” … “Given the House of Representatives’ behavior, it is time for the Senate to inquire about corruption and other improprieties involving Ukraine.” … “Therefore I will offer to Mr. Giuliani the opportunity to come before the Senate Judiciary Committee to inform the committee of his concerns.”

Sen. KAMALA HARRIS (D-Calif.) -- a member of the panel -- replied on Twitter, “Good. I have questions.”

 
Henry Ford said:
That's an interesting experience. For my part, in my experience, conservatives I know are more likely to donate time and money to their churches or other organizations they derive a personal benefit from (museums they visit, for instance) instead of organizations that exclusively help others.  Whereas the most liberal people I've known have been the poorest, and also the most likely to quite literally give their last dollar or own possessions to help someone in need.
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Without a doubt.

 
Henry Ford said:
Maybe we're just quibbling about the definition of "loving" one's neighbor.

"Act always such that you treat humanity, whether in yourself or in another person, as an end and never as a means only."  "Love thy neighbor as thyself."  I don't think those two are really that far off in potential meanings.
Click to expand...
They're very close, in fact. Loving our neighbor as we would ourselves is asking us to not be selfish, in essence. It should also afford us(believers in this case) a chance to reflect the teachings of Jesus, stuff like feeding the poor, helping the sick, even visiting people in jail who might need help(things that I don't really see reflected in the R party very much, it seems). We're all on this blue marble together, we can at least try to be kind to each other.

 
cosjobs said:
@LindseyGraham: “Have heard on numerous occasions disturbing allegations by @RudyGiuliani about corruption in Ukraine and the many improprieties surrounding the firing of former Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin.” … “Given the House of Representatives’ behavior, it is time for the Senate to inquire about corruption and other improprieties involving Ukraine.” … “Therefore I will offer to Mr. Giuliani the opportunity to come before the Senate Judiciary Committee to inform the committee of his concerns.”

Sen. KAMALA HARRIS (D-Calif.) -- a member of the panel -- replied on Twitter, “Good. I have questions.”
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I can't tell if Lindsey Graham is playing Snape here, or if he really thinks this is a good idea for Trump and the GOP.

 
So we all agree the Executive doesn't just get to thumb their noses at the Legislatures right for oversight?

When you get subpeoned you don't just get to say, "Nah brah I feel you will be totally unfair to me."

It essentially returns us to executive as royalty. Your only option is to defeat me in an election and if I interfere in said elections thats cool too. 

 
cosjobs said:
@LindseyGraham: “Have heard on numerous occasions disturbing allegations by @RudyGiuliani about corruption in Ukraine and the many improprieties surrounding the firing of former Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin.” … “Given the House of Representatives’ behavior, it is time for the Senate to inquire about corruption and other improprieties involving Ukraine.” … “Therefore I will offer to Mr. Giuliani the opportunity to come before the Senate Judiciary Committee to inform the committee of his concerns.”

Sen. KAMALA HARRIS (D-Calif.) -- a member of the panel -- replied on Twitter, “Good. I have questions.”
Click to expand...
Interesting angle by Graham.  Not sure I'd want Rudy talking under oath to anyone, if I were part of the Alt-R team here.   

Edit:  I don't know that it would be under oath???

 
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