CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I think we may have found some common ground here. If Murphy were able to fire Thompson and his staff, and replace them with Belichick and his staff, he should definitely do so. Get it done Murphy!
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2016 Green Bay Packers thread (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter sho nuff
- Start date
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Man in the yellow hat
Footballguy
Pipes
Footballguy
I'd settle for a guy that doesn't blow another first round pick or draft basketball players to play CB, DL to play outside LB...etc. The sky is definitely not falling but it's time for TT and the front office to step up.
Man in the yellow hat
Footballguy
Raji and Matthews were great picks. A little revisionist history going on here. Easy to forget how dominate Raji was for a while. That was a great defensive draft. Probably Ted's last great defensive draft. Age and injuries catch up with everyone, and neither is going to be what they were, no matter Raji's status (I think he's done for good.)
Perry has stacked two pretty good seasons together. He was their best pass rusher last season. Hawk was decidedly average; had he been picked 30th, we'd probably all view him differently.
Good picks (or pickups): Nick Collins, Brady Poppinga, Matthews, Raji, Burnett, Dix, Shields, Daniels, Perry, Hyde, Gunter
Average picks (or pickups): Hawk, Bishop, Brad Jones, Neal, House, Barrington, Hayward, House, Ryan, Martinez
Below average picks: Jones, Randall, Goodson, Marviel Underwoood, Abdul Hodge, Harrell, Pat Lee, Jeremy Thompson, Worthy, Rouse,
Way too early to make any call on Kenny Clark. He's 20 years old. He started to flash at the end of the season and in the playoffs. Still a long way to go before judgement there.
jurrassic
Footballguy
Completely fair points. I would argue if Clay were on the Pats, Belichick would probably be looking to trade him this year. That's just been his MO. Not sure if that would be the right call or not. I tend to hope Clay's play this season was more injury driven than age/effort, but that's just a hope.
I don't believe the Pats are big players in FA, as far as big money contracts, but I do think they are incredibly savvy using it to fill holes. They also have been quite adept at finding skill guys with a niche that fit their system (Welker, Woodhead, Lewis, Hogan) and maximizing their talent. That is all I am looking for Ted to do. All teams will miss on guys which has to be expected. The frustrating thing about Ted is when he has used FA, he has hit on a high percentage of them.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
I may have mentioned it even before this year of when do we entertain the thoughts about Clay.
I certainly would hate seeing him go at times...but be fine if we got something for him. (problem is...we have nothing else as a pass rush).
Agreed on finding the skill guys to do it mostly cheaply. TT's (and Russ Ball) credit has been keeping guys here on deals pretty friendly to the team.
Pipes
Footballguy
I wasn't thrilled with the Clark pick but didn't hate it. He's young and showed enough flashes that I think he'll be solid if not pretty good when it all shakes out. Good list
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Raji had one dominant year in 2010 and then he was pedestrian at best because we took away the NT position. Also, interesting to point out, it's the only draft Thompson traded back into round 1. When he makes moves like that he usually hits it big, so why doesn't he do this more!
I think Hawk was an average to an above average player but he was a bad pick. He was the 5th overall pick. He never had a season worthy of a 5th overall pick. I think if you re-do that draft, Hawk isn't even in the first round! He's a bad pick that turned out to be an average player. By the end of their respective careers, Martinez/Ryan/Hawk will probably have comparable careers. But look where they were each drafted.
Collins... too bad... so much potential.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Either way. Whoever Ted picks next needs to be a player. Not some tweener. Heck, if the best player is a TE or FS, take him. But then let him blossom at his position. We need an infusion of football talent. Don't get cute. Just identify and pick the best guy.
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The Kerminator
Footballguy
I don't think Murphy has to go the option of firing Ted and replacing him with Belicheck. He can petition the NFL to redo the drafts from the last 5 years and pick the players with 20/20 hindsight. Just think what this team would be like with DeAndre Hopkins and Landon Collins instead of Datone Jones and Damarious Randall respectively.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
The 20/20 hindsight thing gets old. Those guys were pretty obvious in that they were sliding at our pick. But go ahead and rewrite history as Ted being some lights out draft guru.
Its like any criticism of anything is met with such butt hurt. You guys take it so personal.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Collins, meaning Nick, Landon, or Jalen?
The Hawk pick was pretty unanimous at the time, he just never really got better.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I would agree about Hawk. He was viewed as the most NFL ready, safe pick of those top 5. However, he still didn't live up to it. He came in pretty good and left pretty good. He never evolved into anything more than a decent run stopper and a guy you'd hope wouldn't be in coverage on a passing play. I guess I can't harp on Thompson too much on that one because had he passed on Hawk the pitch forks would be out. I guess my frustration more lies with the fact that our highest draft pick over the last decade basically turned out to be a pretty good/above average defender. I suppose I can't blame Ted Thompson for that.
Nick Collins was what I meant. He was a great pick. Had he not gotten hurt so badly we likely would have had safety locked up to this day. He could have been that playmaker that we needed in the secondary all these years, allowing us to spend draft picks elsewhere.
I imagine the top 3 CBs will be gone (Q. Wilson, Lattimore, King) within the top 15 picks. That would leave these available at our pick, unless I'm missing someone:
Sidney Jones, Washington - physical at the line of scrimmage, but some scouts downgrade his deep coverage
Jalen "Teez" Tabor, Florida - fit right in with the goofy name requirement to be on our team, however one of his weaknesses is deep speed. Again, I guess he'd fit right in
Marlon Humphrey, Alabama - has deep speed coverage but is sloppy with his feet and depends too much on his athleticism
Humphrey could be off the board before GB picks. Looking at the complete draft profile, Jones and Humphrey look like much better prospects than Teez. However, I fully expect Thompson to take none of these and grab either:
Jourdan Lewis from Michigan, which wouldn't be terrible (he's probably one of the fastest but it would be a pretty big reach in round 1.) He's just so small.
Adoree Jackson could be a wildcard pick too. He is quite young, fastest of the top 10 CBs. He's a CB/WR/KR. Rated more likely a 2nd round pick. Right up Thompson's alley for round 1.
I'd love to see Ted take a long look at Chidobe Awuzie round 3. 1- his name just makes me hungry (Qdoba anyone), 2. I think he has potential to be a very good CB1-2 in the league at mid round value. He's gone largely unnoticed playing for the Buffalos, but was a big contributor in their defense. I think if it weren't for the depth at CB this year he'd be graded at a mid 2, early 3 round value instead of 3-4. I've liked a lot of what I see from him.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
The one play I will remember from Hawk was getting schooled by Jon Ryan on that fake against the Hawks. He got owned by a punter.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I don't think anyone is getting personal. I get that it's fun to banter on a message board about football. The funny thing is there is occaisionally a comment I read and think maybe the person posting it actually truly believes he understands football and drafting players on the same level as someone like Ted Thompson. Obviously that would be rediculously stupid, but I do sometimes get that impression.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Obviously we all knew trading a #1 pick for Mossy Cade was stupid, but I think many fans really did understand football better than Forrest Gregg. Mossy raped his aunt the night of his very first game for the Packers, but Gregg kept him on the team the entire season and into the next, waiting until he was actually convicted and sent to prison, based on the presumption of innocence.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
We have some of the best 20/20 hindsight GM's in history right here in this thread. Maybe this year, and until Ted is gone we can all pick our guys in real time in the draft, during that exact few minutes the Packers have to get their card in, and then we can see how we measure up.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Hell I'll go on record. Even if I like the pick. Maybe not real-time as I don't really pay attention to the draft (better things to do than watch), but I will follow and I have no sweat stating who I think the Packers should have taken that day, and if I'm watching it I can give a real time pick. I don't know college football and players terribly well but I will at the very least give my best shot. Then I at least have something for people to use to come back at me with when I complain about Ted's first round pick not doing well, meanwhile mine is suspended for the year or something. I was a big fan of 13 and 14. 15 and 16 not so much. Maybe 17 will be a home run.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I'm in. For sure. For the record I really liked the Clark pick just from a situational standpoint. You had a 20 year old kid, who pretty much everybody agreed went in the proper spot. And there was DL run pretty much right after the pick so you know Ted got his guy instead of leftovers.
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Sabertooth
Footballguy
Although I must say, I was all over Jaylon Smith and Myles Jack. Long term we shall have to see.
Johnnymac
Footballguy
I would like to see the Packers get Desmond King from Iowa. He would fill a definite need on this team. I am biased toward King as I live in Hawkeye country, but this guy would not be a bust. He's very highly rated, good size and speed, great kid all the way around. I think he's going to be great in the NFL.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I agree! I think he's gone though within the first 15 picks. He's in the top 3 for CBs. He's my favorite of the likely 1st round CBs. As I've said, I also like Chidobe Awuzie in round 3 (I don't think he will be there at the end of 4, but if we could snag him in 4 that'd be a homerun).
King won't be a bust
Man in the yellow hat
Footballguy
David Diehl, who was interviewed in the segment, was there to promote Xtech pads. Of course he is going to say that Xtech pads are better and if you aren't using them you're in danger. Point me to the report that clearly states that Xtech is better and I will be sold. Until then, this is Diehl spouting off on behalf of someone paying him to do so. No different than what he is accusing the Packers of doing. He basically ran around promoting Xtech all week prior to the Super Bowl. To say Xtech pads would've made a difference in the Green Bay injury situation is suspect at best.
Man in the yellow hat
Footballguy
This would actually be fun. I'm in.Ditkaless Wonders said:
Interseptopus
Footballguy
What are they supposed to be better at preventing? Curious on this. A brief search revealed no research to back up these claims, just a lot of patents. I'm curious what they claim these pads do. I've been to a lot of conventions and a lot of the time these companies are full of crap and have no research to back their claims up.
Just like the helmets that "limit concussion risk." Dr. Kevin Guskiewicz is heavily involved in the NFL and helped develop their concussion protocol. I spoke with him at a conference and he told me, and I quote, "There is no helmet that can prevent a concussion. No matter what they claim." Real interesting guy to hear speak.
Same thing with this stuff that we see on commercials that goes under turf to limit injuries. It's limited.
At the end of the day, you teach correct form and you will have less injuries. There's a commercial I see a lot of regarding the Seahawks and how they've taught their players a certain way to tackle. That's what limits injuries. Not equipment. You teach someone how to tackle, how to hit someone, how to land from a jump, how to stop and make a cut, how to fall... and they will limit their injuries.
Pipes
Footballguy
And Bill Michaels made that disclaimer. In no way did he or myself indicate those injuries would have been prevented...though Diels made that claim. I just find it interesting that the Packers are one of the few teams that don't let their players choose their shoulder pads and they seem to have more than their fair share of shoulder injuries. Whether it's the pads, poor technique or just bad luck who knows? I just pointed this out to show maybe there are some things the Packers could be doing to help prevent some of their injuries. The demo on Michael's twitter account was pretty cool.
Man in the yellow hat
Footballguy
Diehl claimed in the interview that had Green Bay players been wearing Xtech, they wouldn't have had shoulder injuries vs. Atlanta. Like you, I've found no research proving this to be case. Diehl ran around radio row promoting Xtech, so he clearly has financial incentive to do that. To say Green Bay's choice of Douglas means the players are less safe sounds like it's not based on scientific research.
And you are correct, in particular about the Seahawks. They promote/teach rugby style tackling. The goal is to completely take the head out of the tackle. I've pressed our local youth teams to consider this.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
Honest question, what shoulder injuries did they have this year? Knowing what each player had it would be fairly simple to outline the mechanism of those injuries and looking into what these pads claim to do I could come up with a more educated opinion of whether or not they'd have prevented some or any of these injuries.
Personally I feel like GB's injury problem is historically hamstrings and calves.
Man in the yellow hat
Footballguy
I have no idea if the case is that Green Bay forces Douglas on their players. My guess is Xtech is trying to pressure Green Bay to switching, which is why Diehl is hammering this. This seems like a whole lot of someone trying to stir something up that isn't an issue.
Man in the yellow hat
Footballguy
For the record, I was the USA Football Safety Coach for our youth program last season (Grade 4-8.) Went through certifications and sat through their day long training on safety. To say the science is out on helmets and shoulder pads is an understatement. At this point, technology is changing fast. But in a contact sport like football, the science is really unclear if one particular brand is better than another.
We went through a similar conversation in our program about Xenith helmets. The claim was they were better. But science then said they're all about the same: "In August 2014, the University of Wisconsin released a study involving over 2,000 high school football players that found no difference in concussion rates across helmets, whether by brand, age, or recondition status. "
I'm always dubious of claims like this with any protective equipment.
We went through a similar conversation in our program about Xenith helmets. The claim was they were better. But science then said they're all about the same: "In August 2014, the University of Wisconsin released a study involving over 2,000 high school football players that found no difference in concussion rates across helmets, whether by brand, age, or recondition status. "
I'm always dubious of claims like this with any protective equipment.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
I read that same study! I'm glad you're so involved in your youth football program. Informed people are so much better for these programs than those who buy the hype just to have the "newest" and most trendy thing that claims to do something it doesn't.
Pipes
Footballguy
Clay Matthews, Micah Hyde and Jake Ryan both went out with shoulders in the NFC championship game and Damarious Randall all had bum shoulders at the end of the year. I'm no doctor nor in the medical profession in any way...I just found the discussion to be interesting.
Pipes
Footballguy
I hope that's the case but again with all the injury issues the Packers seem to have I hope their training and equipment staff is doing everything reasonably possible to protect players. To me that would include doing their due diligence on all the equipment the players use and provide them the best equipment possible. Not saying they don't do that now but it is a little disturbing to me that the Packer's players don't get a choice like players on most teams do. That's my biggest takeaway from Diehl while I agree the rest is likely salesmanship on his part.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
The injuries the Packers have had in recent years is odd in general. People can point to the strength and conditioning coaches, equipment, etc. I have no idea what the reason would be for many of these. It could come down to just poor form in tackling. But that's not always the case. You can have fluke injuries (See Le'Veon Bell) and be falsely labeled injury prone, and then there's Percy Harvin where there's a pool to determine when he will be out with a migraine.
What is likely the issue with this Xtech company is they see a team like Green Bay have several shoulder injuries (I wasn't watching that Atlanta game closely for obvious reasons). They use that as an opportunity to pounce and say, well if you used our product you wouldn't have had those problems. Sure, maybe, but likely no; it would have been the same outcome. You know with all of this concussion fiasco that was going on with the NFL that if there was equipment that would prevent other injuries, and the NFL/teams were knowingly not going with that product in order to save a buck or because of a financial stake in another company... there'd be hell to pay in a courtroom.
What is likely the issue with this Xtech company is they see a team like Green Bay have several shoulder injuries (I wasn't watching that Atlanta game closely for obvious reasons). They use that as an opportunity to pounce and say, well if you used our product you wouldn't have had those problems. Sure, maybe, but likely no; it would have been the same outcome. You know with all of this concussion fiasco that was going on with the NFL that if there was equipment that would prevent other injuries, and the NFL/teams were knowingly not going with that product in order to save a buck or because of a financial stake in another company... there'd be hell to pay in a courtroom.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Agreed. Should have been 2:30 left and up by 11 after that 1st down. Nope. They #### the bed badly. There was very little upside in being aggressive. You can't go up by more than two scores there. Sure it's better to be up by 15 than 11 but it isn't THAT much better. They really did show the downside of aggression there.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
The Kerminator
Footballguy
Packers release James Starks today. Saves them about 3 mil in cap space. Let's put it to good use.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I try to keep it in perspective. Brady threw two balls worthy of, deserving, of interception. He threw into triple coverage, after bouncing around, Edelman made an absolutely sick play on the ball, but that is to his credit, not Brady's. As to Brady it was a bad mistake, one he got away with through the grace of God and Julian Edelman, but it was a very bad play by Brady. Next we had Brady trying to throw a 103 yard pick six. He forced a bad throw to Bennett. The Falcons most athletic linebacker was in prime position to pick it off and got his hand on the ball. Had he not been so surprised by the horrendous throw he likely keeps his body in better position, makes the catch, and has only Brady to beat on his way to the end zone and he has a great angle on that 39 year old glacier.
The Pats won, I give them credit, but I don't ignore the play I saw, or the fact that Atlanta's coaching staff, and the, ahem, 2016 MVP, had more than a case of the brainfarts, they had the brainsharts.
I believe this, had Rodgers broken the huddle with a pass call made, seen that defense, been on the 22 with 4 minutes to go, up by 8, knowing the clock is his friend and his defenses friend if he can keep it running or force N. e. to call T.O.'s, he Rodgers, would have audibled to a run, or he would have called a naked bootleg to the right, where the pressure was going to come from, or he would have called a rollout right with pass run option. I believe Rodgers would have gotten a first down running at the 10. Dagger. At that point N.E. would have needed 5 T.O.'s and a defensive stand to win.
A couple of thoughts. first, running is not conceding no first down and an attempt at a field goal. Running may net a first down, it is not a foregone conclusion. Second, we have seen lately team timing up the field goal and jumping the guard/center. We have seen N.E. do it. I don't play for the field goal, I play for the first down, but I protect the field goal option as it is still pretty good, and I turn the clock to my advantage. One last thought, Ninkovich is no spring chicken. Running the D.B.'s off with a stack on the other side and with the W.R. to the right motioning back left, and with blocking looking like a dive or trap left leaves a Q.B. with a pretty good chance running around the right. Sure the Q.B. might find himself squared up early, though unlikely, but if he does he can just give himself up. No risk of a bad handoff exchange, no risk of the ball being pried out I a pile, just slide down for a two yard loss with the clock running, or more likely make the key play of the game. Who knows, even if the Q.B. gives himself up it is not wholly unlikely that the defender, under pressure to make a play and get the ball back for his team, is overly aggressive and hits the Q.B. illegally.
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jurrassic
Footballguy
Starks and Shields released. Packers expected to be at least $45 million under the cap. Still have no faith Ted will do anything with it
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Man in the yellow hat
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
You'd hope. Are they for sure moving on from Peppers?
I think they resign Perry. I'd love to see them grab 5 new corners. Broom all the trash we saw this year.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
As documented in the pages preceding this one, when Ted goes outside of home-grown FAs and brings people in, he typically hits a homerun. Have some faith.
45 million under the cap means that they can likely retain their top priority FAs (Cook, Lang maybe, Perry, maybe even Jones. I am pretty sure I am missing 1 or 2 more. Maybe even Lacy). All that said, he could still have the money to go out and get a decent CB, although the market is not wonderful and it looks like the only one's I'd really be thrilled with will be resigned/tagged. Or maybe he will bring back Tramon Williams... that seems kind of like a Ted move
Yes, he is not likely to go out and make some big moves, but at least we can likely hold onto our own key players such as Perry. I still think they bring Peppers back one more year... it just screams Ted also.
I'm hopeful. We're a month away!
45 million under the cap means that they can likely retain their top priority FAs (Cook, Lang maybe, Perry, maybe even Jones. I am pretty sure I am missing 1 or 2 more. Maybe even Lacy). All that said, he could still have the money to go out and get a decent CB, although the market is not wonderful and it looks like the only one's I'd really be thrilled with will be resigned/tagged. Or maybe he will bring back Tramon Williams... that seems kind of like a Ted move
Yes, he is not likely to go out and make some big moves, but at least we can likely hold onto our own key players such as Perry. I still think they bring Peppers back one more year... it just screams Ted also.
I'm hopeful. We're a month away!
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I often hear complaints of McCarthy and Capers playing too conservatively with a lead, playing "not to lose" rather than "going for the jugular". I'd like to see some stats on coaches playing with a lead in the 4th - how often they've won games with a td+ lead and how often leads have been squandered. I hate it as much as anyone to sit and watch a big lead disappear in the 4th quarter, but often looking back what one sees is the defense giving up the short middle of the field, opposition's timeouts being used early, and the Packers offense running the clock and winning the game.
Apart from the terrible play calling on Sunday, did anyone else notice the Falcons snapping the ball with 15-20 seconds left down the stretch? Ryan had no idea how to kill a game with the lead. That's coaching.
