2020 MLB Spring Training (1 Viewer)

[Capella]

I think you guys want to be upset.  No offense.  

He didn't call it something offensive.  He didn't disrespect it.  If anything, it might have been a poor choice of words, but honestly, I don't even think it was that.  We live in a time now where everyone wants to be the victim.  

If people are offended because someone called a trophy a piece of metal, they need to get thicker skin.  This is stuff that children get upset over.  We are past "name calling" now and we've moved on to being offended by "misspeaking while describing an object."  That's lunacy.  And you can try to justify it all you want by saying it's a symbol or whatever BS you claim, but the fact is if you are getting upset and offended over the words used to describe a trophy, you are being ridiculous.  

No offense GB but you seem to be offended more than most people here. You bringing this up out of the blue is being offended/annoyed by itself. You can’t constantly carry a list of grievances and then ask why others are annoyed all the time. 
 

I’m not offended by what he said at all. I’m not a professional ball player. But I understand why they are. Calling the World Series trophy a piece of metal is absolutely disrespecting it. If you can’t see that then we can’t agree. It’s ok. 

 

[rockaction]

I think you guys want to be upset.  No offense.  

He didn't call it something offensive.  He didn't disrespect it.  If anything, it might have been a poor choice of words, but honestly, I don't even think it was that.  We live in a time now where everyone wants to be the victim.  

If people are offended because someone called a trophy a piece of metal, they need to get thicker skin.  This is stuff that children get upset over.  We are past "name calling" now and we've moved on to being offended by "misspeaking while describing an object."  That's lunacy.  And you can try to justify it all you want by saying it's a symbol or whatever BS you claim, but the fact is if you are getting upset and offended over the words used to describe a trophy, you are being ridiculous.  

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, bud, and I agree with your general point about thicker skin and offensiveness. The commissioner of a sport calling its ultimate symbol of accomplishment "a hunk of metal" seems like something to question, IMHO. 

 

[rockaction]

No offense GB but you seem to be offended more than most people here. You bringing this up out of the blue is being offended/annoyed by itself. You can’t constantly carry a list of grievances and then ask why others are annoyed all the time. 

I’m not offended by what he said at all. I’m not a professional ball player. But I understand why they are. Calling the World Series trophy a piece of metal is absolutely disrespecting it. If you can’t see that then we can’t agree. It’s ok. 

And one turn deserves another: This was better put than I could. 

 

[NREC34]

The commissioner meant it figuratively. What he said about people always questioning the title is a far worse punishment than actually striking it from the record books is true as well. 

Boston will be ok. They have others they’ve won but this really hurts Astro fans. Not sure if what Sheik says about it is schtick or not. 

Commissioner doesn’t want to open a can of worms by taking away the title and not others. It would hurt the sport more in his opinion. That’s my takeaway at least fwiw. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

No offense GB but you seem to be offended more than most people here. You bringing this up out of the blue is being offended/annoyed by itself. You can’t constantly carry a list of grievances and then ask why others are annoyed all the time. 
 

I’m not offended by what he said at all. I’m not a professional ball player. But I understand why they are. Calling the World Series trophy a piece of metal is absolutely disrespecting it. If you can’t see that then we can’t agree. It’s ok. 

I get what you're saying and I'm sure it did seem like it came out of the blue.  This is one of those instances where I just kind of continued a conversation IRL to the board to keep the debate going.  

I would say my annoyance is cumulative with a lot of things.  And this was just another log on the fire of my total annoyance.  

 

[ChiefD]

So how long before Manfred gets canned?

 

[TheIronSheik]

The commissioner meant it figuratively. What he said about people always questioning the title is a far worse punishment than actually striking it from the record books is true as well. 

Boston will be ok. They have others they’ve won but this really hurts Astro fans. Not sure if what Sheik says about it is schtick or not. 

Commissioner doesn’t want to open a can of worms by taking away the title and not others. It would hurt the sport more in his opinion. That’s my takeaway at least fwiw. 

Which part?  For the record, there's nothing that can be said or that can be done that will take away my enjoyment and celebration of the WS championship.  One of the joys of opinions is that everyone is entitled to them.  So people can think it's tainted all they want.  That doesn't affect my opinion.  They could strip the title, disband the team, and send all of the players to Guantanamo Bay.  Wouldn't matter.  In my eyes, they would still be the '017 World Series Champions.  

 

[TheIronSheik]

So how long before Manfred gets canned?

I don't think it'll happen.  

What a lot of people (including writers) are either forgetting or overlooking is that the MLBPA fought to get those players immunity.  Right now, players are mad, but it's their own side that worked out the deal.  Commish did everything he could.  If he strips the title for the Astros, that opens up the debate for how many other teams should lose their title.  Do we strip every team that had a steroid user on it?  What about the 1951 Giants?  Do we pull their pennant?  The pennants of other steroid teams?  What about the 1919 Reds?  Before you know it, half of the titles and pennants are in dispute.  Is that what we want?  Do we want titles decided years later by people arguing like it's a court case?  No.  I would say we don't.  Even though right now, in the heat of the moment, a lot of people are saying we do, we actually don't.  

I've been wrong plenty of times before, but I don't think Manfred loses his job over this.

 

[NREC34]

Which part?  For the record, there's nothing that can be said or that can be done that will take away my enjoyment and celebration of the WS championship.  One of the joys of opinions is that everyone is entitled to them.  So people can think it's tainted all they want.  That doesn't affect my opinion.  They could strip the title, disband the team, and send all of the players to Guantanamo Bay.  Wouldn't matter.  In my eyes, they would still be the '017 World Series Champions.  

I enjoyed it immensely and figured I’d be able to for the rest of my life. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

I enjoyed it immensely and figured I’d be able to for the rest of my life. 

Why can't you?

 

[NREC34]

Why can't you?

The same reason OJ probably doesn’t enjoy his freedom as much as he would’ve had things gone differently for him. 

 

[bigmarc27]

I don’t get why Mike Trout is not being asked about the 2018 mvp or commenting about it. 

It seems like Boston is getting off lighter on lots of aspects of this hence my comments about the umpires. 

Boston report hasn’t come out yet. They’ll get there’s too if it’s just as egregious. 

 

[E-Z Glider]

So how long before Manfred gets canned?

I actually think he's handled this all pretty well given the circumstances. He's stood on stage repeatedly and answered every question asked. Obviously not every answer was going to please everyone. What should he have done to handle this better? He can't punish the players. He never would've gotten the info otherwise.

 

[RUSF18]

I actually think he's handled this all pretty well given the circumstances. He's stood on stage repeatedly and answered every question asked. Obviously not every answer was going to please everyone. What should he have done to handle this better? He can't punish the players. He never would've gotten the info otherwise.

In the last week, he went after a journalist for having the audacity to obtain and publish his letter to the Astros and then had this “piece of metal” disaster. 

So he has the players hating on him and the media pissed and eager to report on any more drama. 

He’s not close to being out of the woods yet. 

 

[E-Z Glider]

So he has the players hating on him and the media pissed and eager to report on any more drama. 

Most of the reaction from players and media that Ive seen is hating on the Astros, not the commish? The biggest complaint Ive seen or heard is that he isnt punishing the players, which he cant, so its not really a legitimate complaint.  The "piece of metal" comment seems pretty innocuous to me. Hardly worth the outrage its receiving.

I could be reading this all wrong, but I dont really see a reason to be mad at the commish here?

 

[NREC34]

He’s right about the piece of metal comment in a way. The Astros turned it into that for themselves. 

It’s an odd thing to be outraged about. The angry mob is outraged over every little bit of this though so we shouldn’t be shocked about it. 

 

[Zegras11]

He didn't call it something offensive.  He didn't disrespect it. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

Keep laughing, piece of metal.

 

[cosjobs]

Most of the reaction from players and media that Ive seen is hating on the Astros, not the commish? The biggest complaint Ive seen or heard is that he isnt punishing the players, which he cant, so its not really a legitimate complaint.  The "piece of metal" comment seems pretty innocuous to me. Hardly worth the outrage its receiving.

I could be reading this all wrong, but I dont really see a reason to be mad at the commish here?

Everybody is just pist. Doesn't matter who said or did what at this point. Everyone's going tun around yelling #### until they aren't pist anymore. Maybe 2040 or so.

 

[Zegras11]

Keep laughing, piece of metal.

Doesn't bother me, but like Cap said, can easily see how it would bother any player at an elite level.

Interesting that he already apologized for the comment,  "There's no excuse for it."

 

[TheIronSheik]

Doesn't bother me, but like Cap said, can easily see how it would bother any player at an elite level.

Interesting that he already apologized for the comment,  "There's no excuse for it."

He apologized because people got mad over it.  I think it's funny that people think an apology means that the person thinks they were wrong.  

 

[Gally]

Boston report hasn’t come out yet. They’ll get there’s too if it’s just as egregious. 

I still haven't really seen any meaningful stats regarding how often the sign stealing took place.  People are citing their improvement from 2016 to 2017 but that improvement also took place during away games.  The team was better overall between those two years.  I have no doubt there was some artificial improvement due to sign stealing but it's unclear how often it was actually used.  The study that compared "bangs" to pitches isn't really meaningful because there is no way to tell how many of the "no bangs" were meaningful. 

If banging meant off speed, how many of the total off speed pitches were stolen?  Is there a report that outlines number of off speed pitches vs number of bangs?  I guess my question is would this outrage be the same if the Astros stole signs in 1% of the at bats?  What about 20% of the at bats?  Where is the outrage line?  Where is the line where it becomes meaningfully affecting games?  There is some legal sign stealing that takes place.  I assume everyone is ok with whatever that amount is. 

Yes Astros stole signs in some amount.  How much did they do illegally?  I just want some context for my outrage.

 

[Zegras11]

He apologized because people got mad over it.  I think it's funny that people think an apology means that the person thinks they were wrong.  

Trolling by asking the question first is an art form that has you deserving your own piece of metal. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

Trolling by asking the question first is an art form that has you deserving your own piece of metal. 

What question?  And did we not get along before this scandal?  I feel like we used to get along.  Yet now that the Astros have cheated, I don't think we do anymore.  And not from me.  

 

[bigmarc27]

I still haven't really seen any meaningful stats regarding how often the sign stealing took place.  People are citing their improvement from 2016 to 2017 but that improvement also took place during away games.  The team was better overall between those two years.  I have no doubt there was some artificial improvement due to sign stealing but it's unclear how often it was actually used.  The study that compared "bangs" to pitches isn't really meaningful because there is no way to tell how many of the "no bangs" were meaningful. 

If banging meant off speed, how many of the total off speed pitches were stolen?  Is there a report that outlines number of off speed pitches vs number of bangs?  I guess my question is would this outrage be the same if the Astros stole signs in 1% of the at bats?  What about 20% of the at bats?  Where is the outrage line?  Where is the line where it becomes meaningfully affecting games?  There is some legal sign stealing that takes place.  I assume everyone is ok with whatever that amount is. 

Yes Astros stole signs in some amount.  How much did they do illegally?  I just want some context for my outrage.

Someone compiled a website of just the games he could find footage of and just what was caught on tv audio, so I’d say this is the bare minimum. You also have to remember that no bang was a signal as well, so the practice was being used at a much higher rate than just the data points shown.

http://signstealingscandal.com

 

[Zegras11]

  This is one of those instances where I just kind of continued a conversation IRL to the board to keep the debate going.  

sorry, wasn't a question.    It was your statement you made, but I just read this and that explains it.   Looking forward to the next log you put on the fire. 

 

[Gally]

Someone compiled a website of just the games he could find footage of and just what was caught on tv audio, so I’d say this is the bare minimum. You also have to remember that no bang was a signal as well, so the practice was being used at a much higher rate than just the data points shown.

http://signstealingscandal.com

I have seen this already.  That was the study I alluded to in my post.  Part of the problem is that you cannot qualify the "no bang".  Just because there was no bang doesn't mean it was a signal.  You have no idea.  A more meaningful stat would be total number of off speed pitches vs pitches with bangs.  If a bang meant an off speed pitch then you can get some perspective comparing the number of bangs to total number of off speed pitches seen.   There is no way to do the same for fastballs unless there is a positive "sign" for them.  Just hearing nothing could be no sign stealing or it could be sign stealing.  No way to know. 

I think part of the outrage is people believing that the Astros knew every pitch coming while playing at home.  I think that is far from the truth so it would be beneficial to have some meaningful data.  In addition, the only time it "helped" them was on a positive outcome.  Otherwise it gave them no advantage.  Having some data with regards to that would also help quantify if this truly affected games.  You would also need data on legally stealing pitches as well.  How often does that occur?  How often does that yield a positive outcome? 

 

[bigmarc27]

I have seen this already.  That was the study I alluded to in my post.  Part of the problem is that you cannot qualify the "no bang".  Just because there was no bang doesn't mean it was a signal.  You have no idea.  A more meaningful stat would be total number of off speed pitches vs pitches with bangs.  If a bang meant an off speed pitch then you can get some perspective comparing the number of bangs to total number of off speed pitches seen.   There is no way to do the same for fastballs unless there is a positive "sign" for them.  Just hearing nothing could be no sign stealing or it could be sign stealing.  No way to know. 

I think part of the outrage is people believing that the Astros knew every pitch coming while playing at home.  I think that is far from the truth so it would be beneficial to have some meaningful data.  In addition, the only time it "helped" them was on a positive outcome.  Otherwise it gave them no advantage.  Having some data with regards to that would also help quantify if this truly affected games.  You would also need data on legally stealing pitches as well.  How often does that occur?  How often does that yield a positive outcome? 

I get that, but I’m honestly shocked that they were so blatant about this that anyone watching on tv and knowing what to watch for can actually document that much cheating. 

 

[SWC]

leg lamp take that to the bank brohans

 

[ChiefD]

leg lamp take that to the bank brohans

listen here buddy baroo its ok to drop the leg lamp trophy on the red hot cheating pile which is a brilliant observation as well all know but that doesn't mean you can just drop it all willy nilly whenever you feel like it to get likes or kudos or pats on the 'ol swcer back but its still a funny lamp trick so take that to the 'ol bankaroo

 

[DJackson10]

No? If people stopped saying stupid things then people wouldn’t get upset over it. I understand why those guys are mad, it’s the ultimate goal in their lifetime of work and this idiot insulted it. I don’t know what you do for a living but imagine trying to obtain that ultimate goal and somebody (who is supposed to be in charge) telling you it’s worthless. It’s moronic for him to even think of saying that. 

Lets bring a little more to this. Imagine that but on top of that you find out someone got the promotion you wanted. This promotion is something you dreamed of since you started. You had all the qualifications and then some jabrony who's barely been there 2 yrs gets it. You then find out said Jabrony is dating a superiors daughter who was in on the interview and hiring process. Not only did they play favorites but you find out the same jabrony didn't even do the work he credits himself doing himself. It was some little nerd in tech who wrote up and made the power points for them among other work for them. Your boss goes up to you and says don't worry about that job it's worthless. Meanwhile you're thinking how is a job that will pay me close to 6 figures a year when adding bonuses, better benefits, more time I can spend with my family etc worthless? On top of that the person who took the job that the whole office thought would go to you was given to a guy because one of the big shots daughter is dating him and the dude who impressed them it wasn't even his own work. 

Lets go back to this in Baseball terms. A WS or MVP is very important to many of these players. A lot of fans too. Lets take 2 Phillies for example. Despite them being incredible deserving both never won a WS despite their personal accolades. Now imagine if you're in their shoes in find out a team like HOU cheated you out of your only WS. Some of these guys who played those games in the WS or playoffs that may have been their only shot at one in their careers. Another team stole that moment from them illegal. I would be pissed off too if I were the players. Today MLBPA came out and flat-out said Manfred lied about the MLBPA not willing to cooperate so Manfred didn't suspend players involved. This thing is ugly and I wouldn't be surprised if MLB had bigger ratings this year or people stopped watching and they lost ratings either do to this. Manfred and Hou and all involved are setting baseball back. All that goodwill MLB got after dealing with the PED scandal is essentially gone now 

 

[DJackson10]

It feels like to me that LA and their fans are so much angrier at Houston because they came really close to winning that WS whereas the Boston series was 4-1. So maybe in their minds they actually could have came out on top in that one. 

That and once a guy starts wearing your laundry any past sins are forgiven. See NY, Gerrit Cole.  

Dodger fans are always coming up with excuses why they lost. Like I said earlier after the Phillies kept giving the Dodgers an early Golf outing for a few yrs it was never the Phillies deserved to win. Always some excuse why LAD lost the game. It became a big rivalry for awhile even a few bad fan incidents at Dodger stadium. Had a buddy who's friend was taking a piss in the bathroom and some idiot smashed something over his head simple for wearing a Phillies jersey. There was a fan who fell from the bleachers and another buddy told me there were dodger fans saying "Hope it was one of those Phillies fans." When my buddy left Dodger stadium with his buddy Security was giving Phillies fans non clear bags to put their Phillies gear in. They said it was for their own safety and when exiting get as far away from the stadium as you can before getting a ride unless you can Get cab right away (Obviously this is before Uber). Do not stop outside of the stadium and don't interact with the Dodger fans.

When my buddy asked is it just for us he said some of the security also did it for Giants fans too. I heard every excuse for yrs why the Phillies WS was tainted and how the Dodgers should've been in it. The fans and team in general are such sore losers. Always some excuse when things don't go their way. 

 

[Rodrigo Duterte]

Oh christ.  And he's early today.

 

[DJackson10]

I don't think it'll happen.  

What a lot of people (including writers) are either forgetting or overlooking is that the MLBPA fought to get those players immunity.  Right now, players are mad, but it's their own side that worked out the deal.  Commish did everything he could.  If he strips the title for the Astros, that opens up the debate for how many other teams should lose their title.  Do we strip every team that had a steroid user on it?  What about the 1951 Giants?  Do we pull their pennant?  The pennants of other steroid teams?  What about the 1919 Reds?  Before you know it, half of the titles and pennants are in dispute.  Is that what we want?  Do we want titles decided years later by people arguing like it's a court case?  No.  I would say we don't.  Even though right now, in the heat of the moment, a lot of people are saying we do, we actually don't.  

I've been wrong plenty of times before, but I don't think Manfred loses his job over this.

MLBPA basically came out last night disputing this. 

MLBPA refutes Manfried's claim of Astros players immunity

 

[DJackson10]

So how long before Manfred gets canned?

He never should've been the main guy for MLB to begin with. Dude has been awful since he started. 

 

[DJackson10]

Boston report hasn’t come out yet. They’ll get there’s too if it’s just as egregious. 

A Boston tea cheating? No way!!!! Completely unheard of, fabricated such false news I tell ya. I'm Bigly surprised by those accusations 

 

[TheIronSheik]

MLBPA basically came out last night disputing this. 

MLBPA refutes Manfried's claim of Astros players immunity

He said, she said.  Regardless, the MLBPA fights for ALL players.  So if they would have been suspended (which the article shows the MLBPA said they couldn't be because the players were not formally notified of the rule changes), they MLBPA would have fought for those players to have had their suspensions overturned.  

Either way, players are mad at other players.  And all of that falls under the MLBPA's per view.  

 

[DJackson10]

I actually think he's handled this all pretty well given the circumstances. He's stood on stage repeatedly and answered every question asked. Obviously not every answer was going to please everyone. What should he have done to handle this better? He can't punish the players. He never would've gotten the info otherwise.

I think the guy is a lying sack of #### to be honest. He's just giving lip service at this point. He failed to stop this when it was presented to him to begin with. This is no different then when Selig found out about the PED scandal and dismissed it and let it continue till it got out of hand. Manfred has gone as far as to not take accountability for not disciplining the players and blaming the MLBPA for it. That doesn't sit well with the players. I'll tell ya this yrs ago my company blamed my union for something that was not their fault on a situation. My Union was more then willing to help the situation and even agreed we won't argue or defend the employees discipline we'll just be there to make sure whatever discipline is handed out is fair and just. Then when it came out the people who should've been fired were literally given a slap on the wrist transferred to other stores and one even got promoted to a manager position they blamed my union.

Let me tell ya the next contract between the Union and my Company in my district was not very pleasant. Numerous people threw other under the bus, backstabbed friends etc. This isn't gonna sit well with MLBPA being accused of something they didn't do. When ever these sports leagues get caught in their lies instead of taking accountability they just blame the Players Union for not allowing them do its job. 

 

[DJackson10]

Doesn't bother me, but like Cap said, can easily see how it would bother any player at an elite level.

Interesting that he already apologized for the comment,  "There's no excuse for it."

He only apologized for being called out on it. Its like all these politicians, or athletes or celebs, news anchors when they say something offensive. Most try to come up with some BS excuse like the reporter who dropped the N bomb during the Kobe coverage. Others apologize simple because the PR team and company told them too. They aren't really sorry. 

 

[DJackson10]

Oh christ.  And he's early today.

There's this really cool feature a lot of social media sites and message boards have. It's called a block or ignore button. You simple click it ad it hides people you don't want to see. Instead complaining maybe just do something about it. Or maybe you just want to try hanging out with the cool kids of the board? Just a friendly suggestion 

 

[TheIronSheik]

A key thing of note here is that just say Manfred was somehow able to suspend some players.  Because it's classified as an "on field action", the maximum amount of games would have been about 8 to 10 games.  And the MLBPA would have fought that.  

So for all of the other players saying MLB didn't do enough to suspend the players, would an 8 game suspension have made it better?  Including the guys no longer on Houston?  I'm guessing not.  It's interesting because each time one of these players says the players should have been suspended, they are going against their own "team."  

 

[Gally]

Lets go back to this in Baseball terms. A WS or MVP is very important to many of these players. A lot of fans too. Lets take 2 Phillies for example. Despite them being incredible deserving both never won a WS despite their personal accolades. Now imagine if you're in their shoes in find out a team like HOU cheated you out of your only WS. Some of these guys who played those games in the WS or playoffs that may have been their only shot at one in their careers. Another team stole that moment from them illegal. I would be pissed off too if I were the players. Today MLBPA came out and flat-out said Manfred lied about the MLBPA not willing to cooperate so Manfred didn't suspend players involved. This thing is ugly and I wouldn't be surprised if MLB had bigger ratings this year or people stopped watching and they lost ratings either do to this. Manfred and Hou and all involved are setting baseball back. All that goodwill MLB got after dealing with the PED scandal is essentially gone now 

This is where it would be nice to know the extent of the cheating.  All teams steal signs (legally) during the season.  How many AB's does this affect?  Who knows, but without the context of how many AB's were affected positively it is impossible to say how much outcomes were affected.  We all know they cheated....bad on them and they should be punished.  Yes, their performances are tainted and in doubt.   It would be nice to know how tainted the performances were. 

Just because a batter knew what pitch was coming doesn't necessarily change the outcome (it can also change it negatively for the cheater as well).  For example, a batter knows a breaking ball is coming and they pop out.  It didn't positively give the cheater an advantage.  In fact he could have overswung because he knew what was coming and caused him to pop out thus negatively affecting the cheater's outcome.   In addition there were games where a batter knew what pitch was coming legally (not using cameras).  What percentage of time does this happen?  This should be taken out as a baseline to the results to put everyone on an equal baseline. 

All this to say it would be interesting to actually know how often it was used, and how much it actually affected the outcome positively and negatively for the cheaters. 

ETA:  For those outraged the most over this cheating, would the quantity of advantage matter in your level of outrage?  If it helped in improve 1% of the AB's results vs 20% of the AB's would that change your outrage?  If you found out that the BA for balls swung at when knowing the pitch illegally (by use of cameras) was .320 or .190 or .500 affect that outrage?  If you found out that knowing the pitch legally was the same advantage as illegally (using cameras) change your outrage level?

 

[TheIronSheik]

He only apologized for being called out on it. Its like all these politicians, or athletes or celebs, news anchors when they say something offensive. Most try to come up with some BS excuse like the reporter who dropped the N bomb during the Kobe coverage. Others apologize simple because the PR team and company told them too. They aren't really sorry. 

99.9999999999% of every apology ever told on this planet was because the offender got caught.  That's how apologies work.  You and others keep saying this like it's something crazy. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

This is where it would be nice to know the extent of the cheating.  All teams steal signs (legally) during the season.  How many AB's does this affect?  Who knows, but without the context of how many AB's were affected positively it is impossible to say how much outcomes were affected.  We all know they cheated....bad on them and they should be punished.  Yes, their performances are tainted and in doubt.   It would be nice to know how tainted the performances were. 

Just because a batter knew what pitch was coming doesn't necessarily change the outcome (it can also change it negatively for the cheater as well).  For example, a batter knows a breaking ball is coming and they pop out.  It didn't positively give the cheater an advantage.  In fact he could have overswung because he knew what was coming and caused him to pop out thus negatively affecting the cheater's outcome.   In addition there were games where a batter knew what pitch was coming legally (not using cameras).  What percentage of time does this happen?  This should be taken out as a baseline to the results to put everyone on an equal baseline. 

All this to say it would be interesting to actually know how often it was used, and how much it actually affected the outcome positively and negatively for the cheaters. 

If you remember correctly, the first 5 or 6 videos of the banging trash can at bats all concluded with the player making an out.  

 

[DJackson10]

He said, she said.  Regardless, the MLBPA fights for ALL players.  So if they would have been suspended (which the article shows the MLBPA said they couldn't be because the players were not formally notified of the rule changes), they MLBPA would have fought for those players to have had their suspensions overturned.  

Either way, players are mad at other players.  And all of that falls under the MLBPA's per view.  

If you honestly think Unions always fight for their union members you are incredible naive. Most unions are in the pockets of corporations today. My Union there's distinct issues the Union agreed that they wouldn't back someone up if they did it. I'm sure most sports unions have similar agreements. Either way it's not the best for contract negotiations to blame your employees union. 

 

[FBG Moderator]

Oh christ.  And he's early today.

Don't do this.

If you've got a point to discuss, please make the point and back it up with why you think what you think. 

Thanks. 

 

[FBG Moderator]

There's this really cool feature a lot of social media sites and message boards have. It's called a block or ignore button. You simple click it ad it hides people you don't want to see. Instead complaining maybe just do something about it. Or maybe you just want to try hanging out with the cool kids of the board? Just a friendly suggestion 

You can also help yourself a ton by being more cool when you discuss things. Thanks. 

 

[TheIronSheik]

People getting timeouts now?

Thanks a lot, Astros. 

 

[DJackson10]

This is where it would be nice to know the extent of the cheating.  All teams steal signs (legally) during the season.  How many AB's does this affect?  Who knows, but without the context of how many AB's were affected positively it is impossible to say how much outcomes were affected.  We all know they cheated....bad on them and they should be punished.  Yes, their performances are tainted and in doubt.   It would be nice to know how tainted the performances were. 

Just because a batter knew what pitch was coming doesn't necessarily change the outcome (it can also change it negatively for the cheater as well).  For example, a batter knows a breaking ball is coming and they pop out.  It didn't positively give the cheater an advantage.  In fact he could have overswung because he knew what was coming and caused him to pop out thus negatively affecting the cheater's outcome.   In addition there were games where a batter knew what pitch was coming legally (not using cameras).  What percentage of time does this happen?  This should be taken out as a baseline to the results to put everyone on an equal baseline. 

All this to say it would be interesting to actually know how often it was used, and how much it actually affected the outcome positively and negatively for the cheaters. 

I agree with this. I was just pointing out why players would be mad about some one saying its just a piece of metal. I'm a huge Eagles fan and never saw them win a title SB until 2 yrs ago. Now imagine me playing for the Eagles during the Andy Reid ERA when they played NE in the SB. I'm a hometown kid playing for my favorite team in a SB. We lose. I find out about the Patriots cheating and Goodell or someone says it's just a piece of metal. Imagine me thats my only chance I had to win a SB. I'd be pissed off too. No matter what. For me it's not that the team we played cheated its more the fact someone tried to make the title of winning less important. I saw grown men crying who were Eagles fans when we won. So to tell anyone calm down it's a piece of metal seems pretty audacious 

 

[DJackson10]

You can also help yourself a ton by being more cool when you discuss things. Thanks. 

Not sure what you mean here. Been pretty cool when discussing this topic. I hardly associate with said poster nor see said poster in most threads I post in. No idea why theres an issue for him with me. Simple was giving him a friendly suggestion of a board function he could use to help himself. I really don't care He's already on my block list at this point