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Backing into Parking Spots - What is the deal and why are so many more people doing it? (4 Viewers)

It would be nice if everyone zipper merged and went about their merry way. Unfortunately, what happens out here is a couple things:

1) Cars will jump out of line to the open lane to speed forward and then try to merge back in, gaining 5 car lengths of time, pissing everyone off in both lanes.
2) Due to item 1, cars in the full lane do not like to let people merge, esp if they saw them jump out of line to try a last minute cut back into line, all to gain a couple car lengths.

Would be nice if it actually worked how people say it should. This doesn't even get into drivers on the shoulder, going straight in turn only lanes, driving up center turn lanes, etc. But those might be better saved for another thread.

Now you can go back to backing into a parking spot discussion.

I think the bolded is technically better for traffic flow. The problem is everyone views traffic as a "line" and people who move to the free lane are viewed as cutting in line. I'm guilty of this mindset for sure.
If everybody just did it right, there is no line to jump out of and gain five car lengths. BOTH lanes are full to the point of the zipper.
This is the point I was making. jumping up a few cars doesn't help anyone. And often causes people actually coming up the empty lane to have to slow down and avoid hitting you.
If everyone was using both lanes and zippering, it would probably flow better. Jumping out of line to pass 5 cars does not.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

THERE IS NO JUMPING OUT OF LINE. The line is two lanes wide. ALL cars ALL the way up until there's literally not another lane (which is where you zipper) should be evenly distributed across ALL lanes. Nobody CAN zip out. Done properly, it is impossible to "jump out of line to pass five cars."

In fact, anyone "jumping out of line" is only doing the proper thing, and five other cars should immediately do the same thing to rectify the problem, and now it's impossible to pass anyone because the road is being used properly.
 
This shouldn't piss people off. Maximizing lane volume is the proper thing. If the zipper merge was used properly this is not an issue. This goes to people being selfish by not letting the zipper merge happen because someone is using the lanes properly
Maximizing lane volume and zippering is one thing and I agree with you. Jumping out of line to pass a couple cars and cut back in does nothing for anyone except cause irritation and potential accidents with those properly using the lanes. Now if you are coming up to the line of cars and the other lane is open, go for it. But once in line and trying to jump a few cars? No, stay in line.
This is weird to me. So the people who seem to think there's some sort of line are ok if you notice all those people are wrong and you do the right thing and stay in the empty lane, but if you notice the empty lane isn't being properly utilized and do the right thing, now it's wrong?
 
It would be nice if everyone zipper merged and went about their merry way. Unfortunately, what happens out here is a couple things:

1) Cars will jump out of line to the open lane to speed forward and then try to merge back in, gaining 5 car lengths of time, pissing everyone off in both lanes.
2) Due to item 1, cars in the full lane do not like to let people merge, esp if they saw them jump out of line to try a last minute cut back into line, all to gain a couple car lengths.

Would be nice if it actually worked how people say it should. This doesn't even get into drivers on the shoulder, going straight in turn only lanes, driving up center turn lanes, etc. But those might be better saved for another thread.

Now you can go back to backing into a parking spot discussion.

I think the bolded is technically better for traffic flow. The problem is everyone views traffic as a "line" and people who move to the free lane are viewed as cutting in line. I'm guilty of this mindset for sure.
If everybody just did it right, there is no line to jump out of and gain five car lengths. BOTH lanes are full to the point of the zipper.
This is the point I was making. jumping up a few cars doesn't help anyone. And often causes people actually coming up the empty lane to have to slow down and avoid hitting you.
If everyone was using both lanes and zippering, it would probably flow better. Jumping out of line to pass 5 cars does not.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

THERE IS NO JUMPING OUT OF LINE. The line is two lanes wide. ALL cars ALL the way up until there's literally not another lane (which is where you zipper) should be evenly distributed across ALL lanes. Nobody CAN zip out. Done properly, it is impossible to "jump out of line to pass five cars."

In fact, anyone "jumping out of line" is only doing the proper thing, and five other cars should immediately do the same thing to rectify the problem, and now it's impossible to pass anyone because the road is being used properly.
I completely understand and agree with the majority of what you are saying. What you are missing in my point is the proximity to the merge point. There is no point for a car 5 back from the merge point to move to the open lane to then try and zipper back in. You aren't helping, you are just being an impatient *&^%.
 
It would be nice if everyone zipper merged and went about their merry way. Unfortunately, what happens out here is a couple things:

1) Cars will jump out of line to the open lane to speed forward and then try to merge back in, gaining 5 car lengths of time, pissing everyone off in both lanes.
2) Due to item 1, cars in the full lane do not like to let people merge, esp if they saw them jump out of line to try a last minute cut back into line, all to gain a couple car lengths.

Would be nice if it actually worked how people say it should. This doesn't even get into drivers on the shoulder, going straight in turn only lanes, driving up center turn lanes, etc. But those might be better saved for another thread.

Now you can go back to backing into a parking spot discussion.

I think the bolded is technically better for traffic flow. The problem is everyone views traffic as a "line" and people who move to the free lane are viewed as cutting in line. I'm guilty of this mindset for sure.
If everybody just did it right, there is no line to jump out of and gain five car lengths. BOTH lanes are full to the point of the zipper.
This is the point I was making. jumping up a few cars doesn't help anyone. And often causes people actually coming up the empty lane to have to slow down and avoid hitting you.
If everyone was using both lanes and zippering, it would probably flow better. Jumping out of line to pass 5 cars does not.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

THERE IS NO JUMPING OUT OF LINE. The line is two lanes wide. ALL cars ALL the way up until there's literally not another lane (which is where you zipper) should be evenly distributed across ALL lanes. Nobody CAN zip out. Done properly, it is impossible to "jump out of line to pass five cars."

In fact, anyone "jumping out of line" is only doing the proper thing, and five other cars should immediately do the same thing to rectify the problem, and now it's impossible to pass anyone because the road is being used properly.
I completely understand and agree with the majority of what you are saying. What you are missing in my point is the proximity to the merge point. There is no point for a car 5 back from the merge point to move to the open lane to then try and zipper back in. You aren't helping, you are just being an impatient *&^%.
I still think you maybe missing the point.

THERE SHOULD NOT BE AN OPEN LANE IF PEOPLE ARE MERGING PROPERLY.
 
It would be nice if everyone zipper merged and went about their merry way. Unfortunately, what happens out here is a couple things:

1) Cars will jump out of line to the open lane to speed forward and then try to merge back in, gaining 5 car lengths of time, pissing everyone off in both lanes.
2) Due to item 1, cars in the full lane do not like to let people merge, esp if they saw them jump out of line to try a last minute cut back into line, all to gain a couple car lengths.

Would be nice if it actually worked how people say it should. This doesn't even get into drivers on the shoulder, going straight in turn only lanes, driving up center turn lanes, etc. But those might be better saved for another thread.

Now you can go back to backing into a parking spot discussion.

I think the bolded is technically better for traffic flow. The problem is everyone views traffic as a "line" and people who move to the free lane are viewed as cutting in line. I'm guilty of this mindset for sure.
If everybody just did it right, there is no line to jump out of and gain five car lengths. BOTH lanes are full to the point of the zipper.
This is the point I was making. jumping up a few cars doesn't help anyone. And often causes people actually coming up the empty lane to have to slow down and avoid hitting you.
If everyone was using both lanes and zippering, it would probably flow better. Jumping out of line to pass 5 cars does not.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

THERE IS NO JUMPING OUT OF LINE. The line is two lanes wide. ALL cars ALL the way up until there's literally not another lane (which is where you zipper) should be evenly distributed across ALL lanes. Nobody CAN zip out. Done properly, it is impossible to "jump out of line to pass five cars."

In fact, anyone "jumping out of line" is only doing the proper thing, and five other cars should immediately do the same thing to rectify the problem, and now it's impossible to pass anyone because the road is being used properly.
I completely understand and agree with the majority of what you are saying. What you are missing in my point is the proximity to the merge point. There is no point for a car 5 back from the merge point to move to the open lane to then try and zipper back in. You aren't helping, you are just being an impatient *&^%.
I still think you maybe missing the point.

THERE SHOULD NOT BE AN OPEN LANE IF PEOPLE ARE MERGING PROPERLY.
Yes I understand and am not arguing that point.
 
It would be nice if everyone zipper merged and went about their merry way. Unfortunately, what happens out here is a couple things:

1) Cars will jump out of line to the open lane to speed forward and then try to merge back in, gaining 5 car lengths of time, pissing everyone off in both lanes.
2) Due to item 1, cars in the full lane do not like to let people merge, esp if they saw them jump out of line to try a last minute cut back into line, all to gain a couple car lengths.

Would be nice if it actually worked how people say it should. This doesn't even get into drivers on the shoulder, going straight in turn only lanes, driving up center turn lanes, etc. But those might be better saved for another thread.

Now you can go back to backing into a parking spot discussion.

I think the bolded is technically better for traffic flow. The problem is everyone views traffic as a "line" and people who move to the free lane are viewed as cutting in line. I'm guilty of this mindset for sure.
If everybody just did it right, there is no line to jump out of and gain five car lengths. BOTH lanes are full to the point of the zipper.
This is the point I was making. jumping up a few cars doesn't help anyone. And often causes people actually coming up the empty lane to have to slow down and avoid hitting you.
If everyone was using both lanes and zippering, it would probably flow better. Jumping out of line to pass 5 cars does not.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

THERE IS NO JUMPING OUT OF LINE. The line is two lanes wide. ALL cars ALL the way up until there's literally not another lane (which is where you zipper) should be evenly distributed across ALL lanes. Nobody CAN zip out. Done properly, it is impossible to "jump out of line to pass five cars."

In fact, anyone "jumping out of line" is only doing the proper thing, and five other cars should immediately do the same thing to rectify the problem, and now it's impossible to pass anyone because the road is being used properly.
I completely understand and agree with the majority of what you are saying. What you are missing in my point is the proximity to the merge point. There is no point for a car 5 back from the merge point to move to the open lane to then try and zipper back in. You aren't helping, you are just being an impatient *&^%.
I still think you maybe missing the point.

THERE SHOULD NOT BE AN OPEN LANE IF PEOPLE ARE MERGING PROPERLY.
Yes I understand and am not arguing that point.
That's fine. We will agree to disagree. @Gally has made the point better than I am anyway.

You absolutely should move over into the empty lane. Not doing so is just perpetuating the problem.
 
Which is a worse offense:
  1. Motorcycle splitting lanes either on highway or backed up byway with two lanes of traffic in each direction
  2. Car/truck driving on the shoulder to pass cars stuck in traffic for some reason
I choose option 2 as I think it's a punk *** move and can block emergency vehicles trying to navigate traffic should there be an accident causing the delay. Always thrilled when I see one of these d-nozzles get popped by the cops.

Not a fan of option one even though legal in some places because to me its kind of dangerous. I've been caught by surprise by a lane splitter and I'm always curious how they think no one is going to squeeze the middle some as they pull forward, could be a spill at that point.
 
Which is a worse offense:
  1. Motorcycle splitting lanes either on highway or backed up byway with two lanes of traffic in each direction
  2. Car/truck driving on the shoulder to pass cars stuck in traffic for some reason
I choose option 2 as I think it's a punk *** move and can block emergency vehicles trying to navigate traffic should there be an accident causing the delay. Always thrilled when I see one of these d-nozzles get popped by the cops.

Not a fan of option one even though legal in some places because to me its kind of dangerous. I've been caught by surprise by a lane splitter and I'm always curious how they think no one is going to squeeze the middle some as they pull forward, could be a spill at that point.
2 for sure. 1 is legal.
 
There is no point for a car 5 back from the merge point to move to the open lane to then try and zipper back in. You aren't helping, you are just being an impatient *&^%.
How far back do we have to go before we get your nod of approval? I think we can agree that if there are 100 cars, it is OK to get into the other lane and go up to the merge point? What is the magic number?
 
It would be nice if everyone zipper merged and went about their merry way. Unfortunately, what happens out here is a couple things:

1) Cars will jump out of line to the open lane to speed forward and then try to merge back in, gaining 5 car lengths of time, pissing everyone off in both lanes.
2) Due to item 1, cars in the full lane do not like to let people merge, esp if they saw them jump out of line to try a last minute cut back into line, all to gain a couple car lengths.

Would be nice if it actually worked how people say it should. This doesn't even get into drivers on the shoulder, going straight in turn only lanes, driving up center turn lanes, etc. But those might be better saved for another thread.

Now you can go back to backing into a parking spot discussion.

I think the bolded is technically better for traffic flow. The problem is everyone views traffic as a "line" and people who move to the free lane are viewed as cutting in line. I'm guilty of this mindset for sure.
If everybody just did it right, there is no line to jump out of and gain five car lengths. BOTH lanes are full to the point of the zipper.
This is the point I was making. jumping up a few cars doesn't help anyone. And often causes people actually coming up the empty lane to have to slow down and avoid hitting you.
If everyone was using both lanes and zippering, it would probably flow better. Jumping out of line to pass 5 cars does not.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

THERE IS NO JUMPING OUT OF LINE. The line is two lanes wide. ALL cars ALL the way up until there's literally not another lane (which is where you zipper) should be evenly distributed across ALL lanes. Nobody CAN zip out. Done properly, it is impossible to "jump out of line to pass five cars."

In fact, anyone "jumping out of line" is only doing the proper thing, and five other cars should immediately do the same thing to rectify the problem, and now it's impossible to pass anyone because the road is being used properly.
I completely understand and agree with the majority of what you are saying. What you are missing in my point is the proximity to the merge point. There is no point for a car 5 back from the merge point to move to the open lane to then try and zipper back in. You aren't helping, you are just being an impatient *&^%.
I still think you maybe missing the point.

THERE SHOULD NOT BE AN OPEN LANE IF PEOPLE ARE MERGING PROPERLY.
Yes I understand and am not arguing that point.
That's fine. We will agree to disagree. @Gally has made the point better than I am anyway.

You absolutely should move over into the empty lane. Not doing so is just perpetuating the problem.
I must live in an alternate reality.
The choke point is the problem. Not “using all possible asphalt”. When people merge at the same point, things can work. If people merge a few hundred yards before the last possible moment, that works just as well as merging at the last possible moment. The problem is most people don’t rush up, some people do.
The zipper merge is correct, but it does not matter where the zipper comes together if we’re all in agreement.
 
The zipper merge is correct, but it does not matter where the zipper comes together if we’re all in agreement.
It does matter. By not using the full lane you are artificially backing up the merge point which pushes the traffic further and further back extending the length of traffic and starting it earlier and earlier.

The merge point efficiency remains the same but the back up of cars is what is affected and will make the overall traffic worse and extend longer by making the choke point be further upstream than it should be.
 
The zipper merge is correct, but it does not matter where the zipper comes together if we’re all in agreement.
It does matter. By not using the full lane you are artificially backing up the merge point which pushes the traffic further and further back extending the length of traffic and starting it earlier and earlier.

The merge point efficiency remains the same but the back up of cars is what is affected and will make the overall traffic worse and extend longer by making the choke point be further upstream than it should be.
I commented before, but I’ll just ask in case I’m missing something.
Assuming no other intersections, why would it matter? Once we’re all in the same lane, we go at the speed of the slowest driver.
 
The zipper merge is correct, but it does not matter where the zipper comes together if we’re all in agreement.
It does matter. By not using the full lane you are artificially backing up the merge point which pushes the traffic further and further back extending the length of traffic and starting it earlier and earlier.

The merge point efficiency remains the same but the back up of cars is what is affected and will make the overall traffic worse and extend longer by making the choke point be further upstream than it should be.
I commented before, but I’ll just ask in case I’m missing something.
Assuming no other intersections, why would it matter? Once we’re all in the same lane, we go at the speed of the slowest driver.
You kind of get it then. Until that point when youre all in one lane, the average speed is higher. This is what you are missing:

Merging early means the average speed goes down, sooner. So the line to merge slowly grows. This is a cause of traffic jams, and why they are worse the longer they last. Traffic on a 2-lane per direction highway that has a half mile of construction begin isn't that bad right away. In ten minutes it's rough. In thirty minutes it is worse.

Part of what contributes to that worsening it people are essentially making a half mile of one lane traffic in 6 tenths...and then three quarters, and then a mile, etc...


ON TOP of that, merging early means drivers are kinda guessing and navigating each other's intent, making zippering harder, which means more merges force braking. If you are all merging at the actual merge point, zippering is easy because everyone knows exactly when and what the merging car has to do every time.
 
I Need to present these findings to my ski area...
Instead of having 6 lift lines that zipper into one they should have 12 lines merge into one. We would all get to the top of the mountain faster.

In fact, move the merge point closer to where we get on the chair instead of being further back 20 feet ... that'll speed things right up.

Oh, and if there's ever a line with an opening, jump out of the back of your line and into the front of the empty line so you can zipper into the merge point sooner. You're actually doing the people a favor that you skipped ahead of because everyone will get to the top sooner.
Just explain to them how you use to be behind them and now your in front of them but they will get to top sooner because you utilized that empty line. "US traffic studies show..."

It's so simple. I can't believe not one ski resort has thought of this.
 
I Need to present these findings to my ski area...
Instead of having 6 lift lines that zipper into one they should have 12 lines merge into one. We would all get to the top of the mountain faster.

In fact, move the merge point closer to where we get on the chair instead of being further back 20 feet ... that'll speed things right up.

Oh, and if there's ever a line with an opening, jump out of the back of your line and into the front of the empty line so you can zipper into the merge point sooner. You're actually doing the people a favor that you skipped ahead of because everyone will get to the top sooner.
Just explain to them how you use to be behind them and now your in front of them but they will get to top sooner because you utilized that empty line. "US traffic studies show..."

It's so simple. I can't believe not one ski resort has thought of this.
You can't honestly believe this is the same thing, right? It's shtick?
 
I Need to present these findings to my ski area...
Instead of having 6 lift lines that zipper into one they should have 12 lines merge into one. We would all get to the top of the mountain faster.

In fact, move the merge point closer to where we get on the chair instead of being further back 20 feet ... that'll speed things right up.

Oh, and if there's ever a line with an opening, jump out of the back of your line and into the front of the empty line so you can zipper into the merge point sooner. You're actually doing the people a favor that you skipped ahead of because everyone will get to the top sooner.
Just explain to them how you use to be behind them and now your in front of them but they will get to top sooner because you utilized that empty line. "US traffic studies show..."

It's so simple. I can't believe not one ski resort has thought of this.
You can't honestly believe this is the same thing, right? It's shtick?
Honestly probably someone who thinks singles are the worst for skiing anyway and refuses to use the empty single lane to skip to the front every time LOL

It's obviously a different scenario. Let's pretend you're being genuine and you think this and want to learn.

Let's even pretend it IS kind of the same. What's different?

You aren't causing a chain reaction holdup in the lift line. You DO actually zipper, with the guidance of a lift operator typically calling two and two or one and three or a four set or four singles, etc.

So let's try your twisted up analogy further. What's different? Imagine there is no lift operator, and most people just use the middle lane of the ski lift on each side and line up three or four across and hop on, sometimes the lift leaves with two or three or four but not always full. Then a single comes by the outside lane because, well, why not? There's a lane there! Except someone in a pair doesn't see the single hop on with the pair form the other side, they get tangled up, and now nobody is getting on the lift until they untangle.

Or, less extreme, they look at each other and try to figure out who's gonna go and one chair comes by and leaves empty because of the awkward hold up.

That's more akin to what's happening. They aren't properly zippering, and so every single person behind them is now one chair behind their timing. And every tangle up that causes a less than full chair causes even more wait. So now the line for the lift is getting longer. Usually 60 people per minute flow by, but now only 50 people are getting on it.

So a like that's generally 20-30 people deep is now 30-40 people deep. But because the flow is still slow, a minute later it's longer. Another minute...longer. The delays pile up. THAT is what happens in traffic.

The highway WOULD flow faster with 12 lanes, as would the ski chair, IF 12 people could get on it, or highway wise if there was so much traffic as to need more lanes. This idiotic "it's just like water in pipes!" Ignores the fact that water doesn't change its behavior by observing other water.

Your ski lift operation is a bad analogy because you don't do the math right. And it's VERY easy math, which is why I think you're being disingenuous. It wouldn't be a terrible analogy, if you recognized that the question is more like "Do you think lift lines would suffer if instead of being four wide for a chair that holds four, we just had one line that was only one person wide?" Or "Would lift lines suffer and people may miss a chair or otherwise progress slowly if we cut the lanes in half partway through, then allowed them to widen again ten yards before the chair, AND we removed the operator?"
 
It would be nice if everyone zipper merged and went about their merry way. Unfortunately, what happens out here is a couple things:

1) Cars will jump out of line to the open lane to speed forward and then try to merge back in, gaining 5 car lengths of time, pissing everyone off in both lanes.
2) Due to item 1, cars in the full lane do not like to let people merge, esp if they saw them jump out of line to try a last minute cut back into line, all to gain a couple car lengths.

Would be nice if it actually worked how people say it should. This doesn't even get into drivers on the shoulder, going straight in turn only lanes, driving up center turn lanes, etc. But those might be better saved for another thread.

Now you can go back to backing into a parking spot discussion.

I think the bolded is technically better for traffic flow. The problem is everyone views traffic as a "line" and people who move to the free lane are viewed as cutting in line. I'm guilty of this mindset for sure.
If everybody just did it right, there is no line to jump out of and gain five car lengths. BOTH lanes are full to the point of the zipper.
This is the point I was making. jumping up a few cars doesn't help anyone. And often causes people actually coming up the empty lane to have to slow down and avoid hitting you.
If everyone was using both lanes and zippering, it would probably flow better. Jumping out of line to pass 5 cars does not.
I don't think you understand what I am saying.

THERE IS NO JUMPING OUT OF LINE. The line is two lanes wide. ALL cars ALL the way up until there's literally not another lane (which is where you zipper) should be evenly distributed across ALL lanes. Nobody CAN zip out. Done properly, it is impossible to "jump out of line to pass five cars."

In fact, anyone "jumping out of line" is only doing the proper thing, and five other cars should immediately do the same thing to rectify the problem, and now it's impossible to pass anyone because the road is being used properly.
I completely understand and agree with the majority of what you are saying. What you are missing in my point is the proximity to the merge point. There is no point for a car 5 back from the merge point to move to the open lane to then try and zipper back in. You aren't helping, you are just being an impatient *&^%.
There is no point for the lane to be open. Everyone in line at that point isn't helping.
 
I Need to present these findings to my ski area...
Instead of having 6 lift lines that zipper into one they should have 12 lines merge into one. We would all get to the top of the mountain faster.

In fact, move the merge point closer to where we get on the chair instead of being further back 20 feet ... that'll speed things right up.

Oh, and if there's ever a line with an opening, jump out of the back of your line and into the front of the empty line so you can zipper into the merge point sooner. You're actually doing the people a favor that you skipped ahead of because everyone will get to the top sooner.
Just explain to them how you use to be behind them and now your in front of them but they will get to top sooner because you utilized that empty line. "US traffic studies show..."

It's so simple. I can't believe not one ski resort has thought of this.
You can't honestly believe this is the same thing, right? It's shtick?
I believe that he believes it is.
 
OMG ... Why would there ever be an empty spot in the lane everyone is merging to? Even if there were a gap for one or two seconds as people attempt to merge, that gap would be quickly taken up at the first opportunity.
So there's never a lift chair with an empty seat as you suggest.

You simply can NOT increase the flow of traffic thru that single lane by changing what happens behind it. There are no gaps. There are no extra cars getting thru.

The only thing you CAN change by adding or using more lanes is decreasing the time it takes to get to the point of merging.

Once everyone has merged, it's single lane, 10 mph, bumper to bumper. No gaps, no empty seats on the lift.
Single lane at 10 mph you will get a set amount of cars thru and that number can not change.
 
Once everyone has merged, it's single lane, 10 mph, bumper to bumper. No gaps, no empty seats on the lift.
Single lane at 10 mph you will get a set amount of cars thru and that number can not change
Right. That’s what I mean by choke point or limiting factor. Anything that happens before that point is negated by this constant. Staying in the closing lane longer will decrease the time for the people using that lane, presuming they’re able to merge, but it delays the people in the lane that remains. On average there’s no change, but for individuals there is.
 
Once everyone has merged, it's single lane, 10 mph, bumper to bumper. No gaps, no empty seats on the lift.
Single lane at 10 mph you will get a set amount of cars thru and that number can not change
Right. That’s what I mean by choke point or limiting factor. Anything that happens before that point is negated by this constant. Staying in the closing lane longer will decrease the time for the people using that lane, presuming they’re able to merge, but it delays the people in the lane that remains. On average there’s no change, but for individuals there is.
Thank you.
I was beginning to think that I was dumber than I already am.

How are we the only ones to comprehend this?
 
You simply can NOT increase the flow of traffic thru that single lane by changing what happens behind it. There are no gaps. There are no extra cars getting thru.
You first variable you are missing is that flow is not constant in traffic. The amount of cars behind the choke point is not constant like a hose. It ebbs and flows over time.

The second aspect you are not accounting for is that the choke point is finite. It is one lane for X miles. That has a specific max volume (as you have stated) but it also has a time component (length of one lane).

Because of this if you take the merge point and move it 1 mile back it moves the slow down point further and further back. So you have Max car volume for 10 minutes that pushes congestion back x miles. If that congestion now starts further back it will extend the distance that you are at max volume because by moving the choke point upstream you are increasing the length of the choke point. So you are increasing the amount of time it takes to clear the choke point. That then increases the volume if cars behind the choke point so it takes longer to clear the choke point. The process compounds the duration.
 
You first variable you are missing is that flow is not constant in traffic. The amount of cars behind the choke point is not constant like a hose. It ebbs and flows over time.
That’s the key. It wouldn’t ebb and flow (as much anyway) if everyone used the same point. OR if everyone merged before they had to slow down, depending on the congestion. Ideally, there isn’t a need to stop, but the need to stop rises significantly if people wait until the last moment to merge. Circumstances matter.
 
You simply can NOT increase the flow of traffic thru that single lane by changing what happens behind it. There are no gaps. There are no extra cars getting thru.
You first variable you are missing is that flow is not constant in traffic. The amount of cars behind the choke point is not constant like a hose. It ebbs and flows over time.

The second aspect you are not accounting for is that the choke point is finite. It is one lane for X miles. That has a specific max volume (as you have stated) but it also has a time component (length of one lane).

Because of this if you take the merge point and move it 1 mile back it moves the slow down point further and further back. So you have Max car volume for 10 minutes that pushes congestion back x miles. If that congestion now starts further back it will extend the distance that you are at max volume because by moving the choke point upstream you are increasing the length of the choke point. So you are increasing the amount of time it takes to clear the choke point. That then increases the volume if cars behind the choke point so it takes longer to clear the choke point. The process compounds the duration.
... so in THIS scenario, there would be less traffic if you used the last 200ft of the merging lane and then waited to be let in?
... instead of merging when there was an opportunity without the need to come to a complete stop.
... and by you passing those 20 cars that merged without stopping, when they had an opportunity, you "did them a favor" because now everyone will get thru the construction zone sooner.

Once the merge has happened and the single lane is flowing at 30 cars per minute ... that's the best you're gonna get regardless of where or how people merged prior to that ... because the merge point is the choke point at which cars proceed at 15 cars per minute.
Doesn't matter if there were 8 lanes of cars traveling 100 mph up to the merge point. You are not getting any more than 30 cars per minute thru after that.
The only thing you can alleviate is the traffic up until the merging point ... and that last 200ft isn't going to make a difference.
 
You first variable you are missing is that flow is not constant in traffic. The amount of cars behind the choke point is not constant like a hose. It ebbs and flows over time.
That’s the key. It wouldn’t ebb and flow (as much anyway) if everyone used the same point. OR if everyone merged before they had to slow down, depending on the congestion. Ideally, there isn’t a need to stop, but the need to stop rises significantly if people wait until the last moment to merge. Circumstances matter.
Of course it would. Unless you think the same number of cars are always on the highway at the same point all day.

ON TOP OF THIS - if you're merging early, without a clear point, you are inherently negotiating, without ability to speak or wave or do anything other than signal and move your vehicle, when and where you can merge. At varying speeds. Which WILL inevitably cause some cars to have to brake, which further changes your and Bossman's silly "well isn't everyone going 10 mph?" thought.
 
You simply can NOT increase the flow of traffic thru that single lane by changing what happens behind it. There are no gaps. There are no extra cars getting thru.
You first variable you are missing is that flow is not constant in traffic. The amount of cars behind the choke point is not constant like a hose. It ebbs and flows over time.

The second aspect you are not accounting for is that the choke point is finite. It is one lane for X miles. That has a specific max volume (as you have stated) but it also has a time component (length of one lane).

Because of this if you take the merge point and move it 1 mile back it moves the slow down point further and further back. So you have Max car volume for 10 minutes that pushes congestion back x miles. If that congestion now starts further back it will extend the distance that you are at max volume because by moving the choke point upstream you are increasing the length of the choke point. So you are increasing the amount of time it takes to clear the choke point. That then increases the volume if cars behind the choke point so it takes longer to clear the choke point. The process compounds the duration.
... so in THIS scenario, there would be less traffic if you used the last 200ft of the merging lane and then waited to be let in?
... instead of merging when there was an opportunity without the need to come to a complete stop.
... and by you passing those 20 cars that merged without stopping, when they had an opportunity, you "did them a favor" because now everyone will get thru the construction zone sooner.

Once the merge has happened and the single lane is flowing at 30 cars per minute ... that's the best you're gonna get regardless of where or how people merged prior to that ... because the merge point is the choke point at which cars proceed at 15 cars per minute.
Doesn't matter if there were 8 lanes of cars traveling 100 mph up to the merge point. You are not getting any more than 30 cars per minute thru after that.
The only thing you can alleviate is the traffic up until the merging point ... and that last 200ft isn't going to make a difference.

Nobody should be passing any cars. get that through your head. It's a straw man. EVERYONE should be in both lanes. Period. That's the argument.

Your problem with the merge point is you lack the TIME and distance element.

You have a 10 mile stretch everyone is trying to complete.

There's 1 mile of construction. For that one mile, everyone can only go 30 mph.

For the other 9 miles, everyone can go 60 mph.

So let's say there are ZERO other cars on the road. You'd be spending 10% of your time at 30mph, and 90% of it at 60mph, right?

Now let's add the merge. Your early merge theory functionally is creating an extra distance BEFORE the merge point where people are not only not going 60mph, but because people are randomly just merging in and everyone has to guess, you're causing random braking and possible accidents and all sorts of garbage...so you've actually slowed people to 15mph for some measure of road.

What SHOULD happen is when you see the choke point, you should gradually slow down and zipper right at the choke. So your speed doesn't really dip below 30 ever.

Have you ever noticed that even in the "choke point" of one lane, after you merge, everything speeds back up? That's because improper merging is causing additional slowdown. If everyone did a zipper at the merge point properly, then MAYBE you drop just below 30 mph right at the merge point. Instead, people who do what you do force ever car behind them to endure what becomes 15 mph, then 10 mph, then standstill traffic, etc.

What you don't understand is that merging early is WHY there is a complete stop. It causes it. A proper merge wouldn't cause the stop.
 

What you don't understand is that merging early is WHY there is a complete stop. It causes it. A proper merge wouldn't cause the stop.
I've yet to discuss this ...
You assume people merging early are causing a complete stop? Do drivers in your state just stop in their lane and throw on a directional?
In my state some people merge when there is an opportunity ... a gap to slide into, before getting to the end of a closing lane and having to stop.
 

What you don't understand is that merging early is WHY there is a complete stop. It causes it. A proper merge wouldn't cause the stop.
I've yet to discuss this ...
You assume people merging early are causing a complete stop? Do drivers in your state just stop in their lane and throw on a directional?
In my state some people merge when there is an opportunity ... a gap to slide into, before getting to the end of a closing lane and having to stop.
Research posted to reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/YouShouldK..._by_merging_before_the_end_of_the_merge_lane/

AAA: https://www.acg.aaa.com/connect/blogs/4c/auto/zipper-merge-keeps-traffic-moving

Nebraska DOT: https://www.facebook.com/reel/1007996197443888

Literally just googled for ten seconds. I don't assume. I know. because it has been researched. it is a proven fact. That is what happens. I'm not trying a thought experiment. I'm sharing settled real world research with you.
 
At the end of the day, it's fine. I've got great insurance, I've got a driver cam, and I've got the time and money to do things right. If you pull out in front of me and I'm in the proper lane, and you do it late enough, there's a decent chance you're getting drilled, and then you're getting sued. And I'll win.

So if you really want a reason to use the road properly, maybe that's the one. Save some money and hassle.
 
but the need to stop rises significantly if people wait until the last moment to merge. Circumstances matter.
If the zipper merge is used it doesn't require anybody to stop (unless downstream of the merge point is congestd to the point of stopping. A properly executed zipper merge with flow always continuing will never stop. That's the beauty of it.
 
Drive a pick-up. Also have been a CDL driver. I find it much easier to maneuver the truck into a spot backing in, and pulling out is also much easier than backing out. The back-up camera doesn’t hurt. Also, this is usually a one pass event, and takes no noticeable additional time than pulling in. It’s probably faster since judging if I am in the spot fully is easier with the camera.
 
You assume people merging early are causing a complete stop?
I am not assuming people merging early causes a complete stop. But it does cause a ripple effect of people upstream of the merge point slowing down and that ripple moving back further and further. People that merge early and don't do it when there is truly a space for them cause even more of a slow down because at that point 1 mile from the merge point when they force their way into the other lane it causes even more of slow down since it is unexpected. That causes brake lights and that causes people to slow down more than they should etc etc. It all has a "turbulent" effect on the flow of the fluid (cars).

This is simply a fluid dynamics problem and in order to cause the least disruption and smoothest (read fastest) flow you minimize turbulence. Zipper merging at the merge point is the best way to minimize turbulence that ripples further and further back.

The mental hurdle of thinking people are jumping the line is what causes most of this mental gymnastics. If everyone filled each lane to capacity and merged at the merge point then there are no line jumpers. That is the biggest disconnect of all. THERE ARE NO LANE JUMPERS IF DONE PROPERLY.
 
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OMG ... Why would there ever be an empty spot in the lane everyone is merging to? Even if there were a gap for one or two seconds as people attempt to merge, that gap would be quickly taken up at the first opportunity.
So there's never a lift chair with an empty seat as you suggest.

You simply can NOT increase the flow of traffic thru that single lane by changing what happens behind it. There are no gaps. There are no extra cars getting thru.

The only thing you CAN change by adding or using more lanes is decreasing the time it takes to get to the point of merging.

Once everyone has merged, it's single lane, 10 mph, bumper to bumper. No gaps, no empty seats on the lift.
Single lane at 10 mph you will get a set amount of cars thru and that number can not change.

It changes if you lengthen the distance that it is a single lane, no?
 

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