Calling out help from Sharks (1 Viewer)

[Kit Fisto]

An important thing everyone is missing here is the direction the respective teams are going in.

The Titans lost there best offensive player in Mason, they have been depleted on defense over the last two years. McNair is coming back and will struggle but for some reason he will get the job because he is McNair and the Titans feel they owe him. Teams will stack the line against Brown, the team will be out of games early and will abandon the run. Plus the guy always seemed like he was injured, what will another season as a starter do for his durability?

On the other hand we have Jordan, he IS unproven, but I do think he looked decent this year and at times better than CuMar, maybe it was that CuMar wore the D's down I don't know. However Norv Turner the undisputed Guru of RBs chose Jordan over some big time RBs who were available (Alexander and James for the right price) Travis Henry (a proven producer), plus a draft loaded with RB talent. I am sure Norv knows RB talent more than most in the NFL and certainly anyone on this board so I would not discount Jordan.

Further Jordan will never see a loaded box with Moss and Porter on the outside. And there will be plenty of times Moss/Porter get tackled inside the 10 where you will see Turner pound it in so not touching the ball is not a concern. 

I have seen what Brown has done and honestly I think it was the ceiling fcor him. What Jordan can fdo is a mystery but at the end of the day both will start the season as a #2 FF back, I take my shot at someone who could turn into a stud (Jordan) over someone who will be top 15 at best.

Just my 2 cents.

Thought?

Brown's ceiling was top 5 last year until he got hurt. He was one of the most productive backs (if not the most productive) in the league last year through the first 5 weeks: 16-100, 26-152-1, 23-101-1, 15-55, 27-148-2 and don't forget some of those outings were only 1/2 game. So 4 of 5 games he ran for over 100 yards and he doesn't have the ability to be a stud but Jordan does? Another thing I don't get is that everyone thinks that Moss makes RB's great and because Moss is on the team Lamont is assured to be a stud. When was the last time Minn had a top 5-10 back? The Robert Smith days? A lot of people are still expecting Moss to be a goal line option but also think that Jordan will be the goal line option. There is only 1 football and something's gotta give.

"I take my shot at someone who could turn into a stud (Jordan) over someone who will be top 15 at best."This is laughable. You've got them backwards. Brown is the guy who could turn into a stud, and Jordan is the "Top-15 at best" guy.

Lamont Jordan will never, ever be considered in the Edge, Alexander, Tomlinson, McGahee class, even if he had the ghost of Walter Payton up his butt.

Chris Brown has, at the very least, shown that he can DOMINATE at this level. He has yet to do it consistently, but at least he's actual done it, unlike Lamont Jordan, who has yet to do squat in his 4-year career.

I quit. I gave my opinion. Like I said, if Jordan and Brown play in the same amount of games and Jordan posts better numbers, I'll leave these boards and never return.

 

[goonsquad]

However Norv Turner the undisputed Guru of RBs.

This comment is one I must ponder over, and one that requires some digging. Turner gets credit for molding the careers of some top RB, but I had to go back and check to see how much credit he actually was due. There is no question about the performance level of RB on Turner's teams, but I was curious as to how much of the success could really be bestowed on his ability to "pick" a RB.Turner was with the Rams from 1985 - 1990. For those with poor memories, the Rams had Eric Dickerson BEFORE Turner got there, and Dickerson only put up 2105/14 the year BEFORE Turner got the keys to the offense. After Dickerson was traded to the Colts, Charles White took over without missing a beat. The Rams later picked up Greg Bell, who had a couple of good seasons as a Top 15 or so RB in Buffalo but did do much better with the Rams.

Turner then went to Dallas from 1991 - 1993 . . . who already had Emmitt Smith BEFORE Turner got there. And we all know how that turned out, so there's no need to rehash that here.

Next stop, Washington from 1994 - 2000. One of his first orders of business was to import Terry Allen, a Top 5 -10 RB from Minnesota. The first RB that Turner actually "made" was Stephen Davis--who needed 4 years to get a chance to play.

On to San Diego for a year (2001). I don't know how much influence Turner had in the draft, but it was clear the Bolts did not want Michael Vick and they ended up with LT. Clearly an excellent selection--as LT had a great rookie year and flourished after Turner left.

On to Miami for 2002 and 2003, acquiring Ricky Williams who had one phenomenal year and another very good year for the Phins (after Ricky was first productive in N.O.). And of course, he went to Oakland last season.

I think part of the credit must go to Turner for his system, but I also think he had some good luck in starting out with HOF caliber talent or getting RB that were already proven. (He also had several cases where not so well known RB stepped right in and were productive.)

Just for ha-has, here are the stat lines for the most productive RB each year under Turner's offenses.

1985: Eric Dickerson 292-1234-12 rushing, 20-126-0 receiving (10th)

1986: Eric Dickerson 404-1821-11 rushing, 26-205-0 receiving (1st)

1987: Charles White 324-1374-11 rushing, 23-121-0 receiving (1st)

1988: Greg Bell 288-1212-16 rushing, 24-124-2 receiving (4th)

1989: Greg Bell 272-1137-15 rushing, 19-85-0 receiving (7th)

1990: Cleveland Gary 204-808-14 rushing, 30-150-1 receiving (6th)

1991: Emmitt Smith 365-1563-12 rushing, 49-258-1 receiving (3rd)

1992: Emmitt Smith 373-1713-18 rushing, 59-335-1 receiving (1st)

1993: Emmitt Smith 283-1486-9 rushing, 57-414-1 receiving (1st)

1994: Ricky Ervins 185-650-3 rushing, 51-293-1 receiving (28th)

1995: Terry Allen 338-1309-10 rushing, 31-232-1 receiving (7th)

1996: Terry Allen 347-1353-21 rushing, 32-194-0 receiving (1st)

1997: Terry Allen 210-724-4 rushing, 20-172-1 receiving (28th)

1998: Terry Allen 148-700-2 rushing, 17-128-0 receiving (31st)

1999: Stephen Davis 290-1405-17 rushing, 23-111-0 receiving (4th)

2000: Stephen Davis 332-1318-11 rushing, 33-313-0 receiving (12th)

2001: LaDainian Tomlinson 339-1236-10 rushing, 59-367-0 receiving (7th)

2002: Ricky Williams 383-1853-16 rushing, 47-363-1 receiving (2nd)

2003: Ricky Williams 392-1372-9 rushing, 50-351-1 receiving (9th)

2004: Amos Zereoue 112-425-3 rushing, 39-284-0 receiving (39th)

That averages out to 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 (11th). That average would amount to 236 fantasy points, and using 2004 rankings, that would have ranked as the #8 RB.

In 20 years, Turner produced 15 Top 10 seasons including the #1 fantasy RB 5 times (and 4 different RB ranked #1 mind you).

So that's the Turner story. the question remains is Jordan in the same class as some of the other RB . . . and you all can decide that one on your own.

Wow. Awesome post, man.

 

[RavenFan]

I don't understand all this talk of "not being able to beat out Martin." What about Priest? Everybody and there mother thinks that he's the best RB since sliced bread, but he was beaten out by a rookie back. I think that Priest has turned out ok. Some teams feel that respected vererans (like Martin) shouldn't lose their jobs because of injury, etc. All I know is that L Jordan is the undisputed starting RB on a team loaded with WR threats and coached by a guy known for producing FF RBs. These factors alone make me think Jordan will be successful. He may not score more than 8 TDs, but I'd bet that he gets a but-load of yards through the ground and air. Also, it seems that Jordan's biggest supports are those who have actually watched him play in NYC. I would lean much more toward top 15 RB than bottom 15.

 

[jurb26]

I don't understand all this talk of "not being able to beat out Martin."

I dont get it either. People are acting as if this was an open competition for the starting gig. It wasn't and NEVER was!

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I don't understand all this talk of "not being able to beat out Martin."

I dont get it either. People are acting as if this was an open competition for the starting gig. It wasn't and NEVER was!

Yes, I agree. People are assuming Jordan is bad because of not beatting out Martin; that is fishing at its finest. L. Johnson was good last year. But at the start of the year P. Holmes will be the starter and carry most of the work load for KC. Does this mean Johnson is bad because he could not beat out the starter??? No. Does this mean L. Jordan was bad because he could not beat out Martin? NO. Granted Johnson put up better numbers then Jordan in his starting time but I think you get the point that you can't assume a RB is not good b/c he did not beat out the starter.

And C. Brown may be a better RB but this does not mean he is going to out produce L. Jordan in FF. Yuds post about N. Turner and his RB's has me licking my chomps even more.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

EDDIE GEORGE:

2002 Tennessee Titans 16g 1165yds 12TDs

2003 Tennessee Titans 16g 1031yds 5TDs

CURTIS MARTIN:

2002 New York Jets 16g 1094yds 5TDs

2003 New York Jets 16g 1308yds 2TDs

So, George was in SERIOUS decline, but Martin never was....

If it wasn't for Martin's "Comeback Player of the Year"-type season compared to George's backup duty in Dallas last year, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Fact remains, Chris Brown replaced Eddie George after the numbers George put up in 2003, but Lamont Jordan could not beat out Curtis Martin after the stats Martin put up the same year!!! But I forgot, you know more than NFL coaches do....

Yes, you are making the stats look like these backs were playing at the same caliber..... In 2001 George had 315 carries and did not even reached 1000 yds, he had 939 yds. In that same year Marting ran for 1513 yds. George had a good sesason in 2002 but still he only averaged 3.4 ypc in comparison to Martin with a 4.2 ypc.

Lets look at the avg's over the last 3 years of C. Martin vs E. George as strarting RB's in the NFL and see why Brown got the starting gig as compared to Jordan. We will go the 2001, 2002 and 2003 season leaving out 2004 because George was a back up.

avg for those 3 years.........

George

323 carries per year = 1045 yds a year with a 3.2 ypc avearge

31 receptoins per year = 232 recieving yds a year

Total TD's per year = 8

Martin

305 carries per year = 1305 yds a year with a 4.3 ypc average

48 receptions per year = 314 yds a year

Totatl TD's per year = 6.5

Those 3 years in 2001 until 2003 for E. George are far wost then Martin's except the TD total which is very skewed from the one year where Martin did not get all the goaline touches, therefore, that is why Brown got the starting job. Also, Martin went on in 2004 to have this great year should I post the stats comparison Of George vs Martin this past year in 2004.

So could you tell me who was on the decline George or Martin? And if Tenn organization did a wonderful job of knowing when to let go of George as the starter and how wonderful a job the Jets organization did of not letting go of Martin as the starter as he was still producing at a much higher level.

Don't hide stats when you try to make your post more valid. It does no justice for your argument.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

However Norv Turner the undisputed Guru of RBs.

This comment is one I must ponder over, and one that requires some digging. Turner gets credit for molding the careers of some top RB, but I had to go back and check to see how much credit he actually was due. There is no question about the performance level of RB on Turner's teams, but I was curious as to how much of the success could really be bestowed on his ability to "pick" a RB.Turner was with the Rams from 1985 - 1990. For those with poor memories, the Rams had Eric Dickerson BEFORE Turner got there, and Dickerson only put up 2105/14 the year BEFORE Turner got the keys to the offense. After Dickerson was traded to the Colts, Charles White took over without missing a beat. The Rams later picked up Greg Bell, who had a couple of good seasons as a Top 15 or so RB in Buffalo but did do much better with the Rams.

Turner then went to Dallas from 1991 - 1993 . . . who already had Emmitt Smith BEFORE Turner got there. And we all know how that turned out, so there's no need to rehash that here.

Next stop, Washington from 1994 - 2000. One of his first orders of business was to import Terry Allen, a Top 5 -10 RB from Minnesota. The first RB that Turner actually "made" was Stephen Davis--who needed 4 years to get a chance to play.

On to San Diego for a year (2001). I don't know how much influence Turner had in the draft, but it was clear the Bolts did not want Michael Vick and they ended up with LT. Clearly an excellent selection--as LT had a great rookie year and flourished after Turner left.

On to Miami for 2002 and 2003, acquiring Ricky Williams who had one phenomenal year and another very good year for the Phins (after Ricky was first productive in N.O.). And of course, he went to Oakland last season.

I think part of the credit must go to Turner for his system, but I also think he had some good luck in starting out with HOF caliber talent or getting RB that were already proven. (He also had several cases where not so well known RB stepped right in and were productive.)

Just for ha-has, here are the stat lines for the most productive RB each year under Turner's offenses.

1985: Eric Dickerson 292-1234-12 rushing, 20-126-0 receiving (10th)

1986: Eric Dickerson 404-1821-11 rushing, 26-205-0 receiving (1st)

1987: Charles White 324-1374-11 rushing, 23-121-0 receiving (1st)

1988: Greg Bell 288-1212-16 rushing, 24-124-2 receiving (4th)

1989: Greg Bell 272-1137-15 rushing, 19-85-0 receiving (7th)

1990: Cleveland Gary 204-808-14 rushing, 30-150-1 receiving (6th)

1991: Emmitt Smith 365-1563-12 rushing, 49-258-1 receiving (3rd)

1992: Emmitt Smith 373-1713-18 rushing, 59-335-1 receiving (1st)

1993: Emmitt Smith 283-1486-9 rushing, 57-414-1 receiving (1st)

1994: Ricky Ervins 185-650-3 rushing, 51-293-1 receiving (28th)

1995: Terry Allen 338-1309-10 rushing, 31-232-1 receiving (7th)

1996: Terry Allen 347-1353-21 rushing, 32-194-0 receiving (1st)

1997: Terry Allen 210-724-4 rushing, 20-172-1 receiving (28th)

1998: Terry Allen 148-700-2 rushing, 17-128-0 receiving (31st)

1999: Stephen Davis 290-1405-17 rushing, 23-111-0 receiving (4th)

2000: Stephen Davis 332-1318-11 rushing, 33-313-0 receiving (12th)

2001: LaDainian Tomlinson 339-1236-10 rushing, 59-367-0 receiving (7th)

2002: Ricky Williams 383-1853-16 rushing, 47-363-1 receiving (2nd)

2003: Ricky Williams 392-1372-9 rushing, 50-351-1 receiving (9th)

2004: Amos Zereoue 112-425-3 rushing, 39-284-0 receiving (39th)

That averages out to 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 (11th). That average would amount to 236 fantasy points, and using 2004 rankings, that would have ranked as the #8 RB.

In 20 years, Turner produced 15 Top 10 seasons including the #1 fantasy RB 5 times (and 4 different RB ranked #1 mind you).

So that's the Turner story. the question remains is Jordan in the same class as some of the other RB . . . and you all can decide that one on your own.

I'm begining to like Jordan even more. Nice work.

Look at those RBs and you no one in there right mind can tell me Lamont has close to the skill that those RBs have.Eric Dickerson

Emmitt Smith

Terry Allen

Tomlinson

Ricky Williams

....

Lamont Jordan.

Also look at the number of carries all those RBs had. The Raiders had 327 carries as a TEAM last year. I don't expect that number to jump by 100 carries to coincide with the stats above.

And for those of you who use the "he was playing behind a HoFer" crutch about not getting a chance....

Lamont was the backup and never even gave Martin a run for his money for the starting job while Martin was injured or faltered a few seasons back. Here's a novel idea....maybe he was never given a chance cause he simply wasn't good enough. Lamont was never a given a chance at a starter because the coaches and FO never saw him as being capable. I mean, Lamont didn't even vulture any carries away from Martin while he was there....Lamont just got all the scraps from Martin, precisely like this year. If Lamont was good enough, then we would have seen him being used more to make use of his skill and to not put so much of a strain on your aged "HoFer" back, Martin.

Martin hasn't been that amazing while Lamont has been there that Lamont couldn't have been given more responsibility at some point. I could see if Martin was having HoF years these past 4 years, but that isn't the case by any means. Lamont was simply a backup RB.

IF he was skilled enough, then he would have been given a chance....instead of he was never given a chance cause he played behind a future HoFer.

Skilled players are given chances and will be utilized by their teams, regardless of who is playing in front of them.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

However Norv Turner the undisputed Guru of RBs.

This comment is one I must ponder over, and one that requires some digging. Turner gets credit for molding the careers of some top RB, but I had to go back and check to see how much credit he actually was due. There is no question about the performance level of RB on Turner's teams, but I was curious as to how much of the success could really be bestowed on his ability to "pick" a RB.Turner was with the Rams from 1985 - 1990. For those with poor memories, the Rams had Eric Dickerson BEFORE Turner got there, and Dickerson only put up 2105/14 the year BEFORE Turner got the keys to the offense. After Dickerson was traded to the Colts, Charles White took over without missing a beat. The Rams later picked up Greg Bell, who had a couple of good seasons as a Top 15 or so RB in Buffalo but did do much better with the Rams.

Turner then went to Dallas from 1991 - 1993 . . . who already had Emmitt Smith BEFORE Turner got there. And we all know how that turned out, so there's no need to rehash that here.

Next stop, Washington from 1994 - 2000. One of his first orders of business was to import Terry Allen, a Top 5 -10 RB from Minnesota. The first RB that Turner actually "made" was Stephen Davis--who needed 4 years to get a chance to play.

On to San Diego for a year (2001). I don't know how much influence Turner had in the draft, but it was clear the Bolts did not want Michael Vick and they ended up with LT. Clearly an excellent selection--as LT had a great rookie year and flourished after Turner left.

On to Miami for 2002 and 2003, acquiring Ricky Williams who had one phenomenal year and another very good year for the Phins (after Ricky was first productive in N.O.). And of course, he went to Oakland last season.

I think part of the credit must go to Turner for his system, but I also think he had some good luck in starting out with HOF caliber talent or getting RB that were already proven. (He also had several cases where not so well known RB stepped right in and were productive.)

Just for ha-has, here are the stat lines for the most productive RB each year under Turner's offenses.

1985: Eric Dickerson 292-1234-12 rushing, 20-126-0 receiving (10th)

1986: Eric Dickerson 404-1821-11 rushing, 26-205-0 receiving (1st)

1987: Charles White 324-1374-11 rushing, 23-121-0 receiving (1st)

1988: Greg Bell 288-1212-16 rushing, 24-124-2 receiving (4th)

1989: Greg Bell 272-1137-15 rushing, 19-85-0 receiving (7th)

1990: Cleveland Gary 204-808-14 rushing, 30-150-1 receiving (6th)

1991: Emmitt Smith 365-1563-12 rushing, 49-258-1 receiving (3rd)

1992: Emmitt Smith 373-1713-18 rushing, 59-335-1 receiving (1st)

1993: Emmitt Smith 283-1486-9 rushing, 57-414-1 receiving (1st)

1994: Ricky Ervins 185-650-3 rushing, 51-293-1 receiving (28th)

1995: Terry Allen 338-1309-10 rushing, 31-232-1 receiving (7th)

1996: Terry Allen 347-1353-21 rushing, 32-194-0 receiving (1st)

1997: Terry Allen 210-724-4 rushing, 20-172-1 receiving (28th)

1998: Terry Allen 148-700-2 rushing, 17-128-0 receiving (31st)

1999: Stephen Davis 290-1405-17 rushing, 23-111-0 receiving (4th)

2000: Stephen Davis 332-1318-11 rushing, 33-313-0 receiving (12th)

2001: LaDainian Tomlinson 339-1236-10 rushing, 59-367-0 receiving (7th)

2002: Ricky Williams 383-1853-16 rushing, 47-363-1 receiving (2nd)

2003: Ricky Williams 392-1372-9 rushing, 50-351-1 receiving (9th)

2004: Amos Zereoue 112-425-3 rushing, 39-284-0 receiving (39th)

That averages out to 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 (11th). That average would amount to 236 fantasy points, and using 2004 rankings, that would have ranked as the #8 RB.

In 20 years, Turner produced 15 Top 10 seasons including the #1 fantasy RB 5 times (and 4 different RB ranked #1 mind you).

So that's the Turner story. the question remains is Jordan in the same class as some of the other RB . . . and you all can decide that one on your own.

I'm begining to like Jordan even more. Nice work.

Look at those RBs and you no one in there right mind can tell me Lamont has close to the skill that those RBs have.Eric Dickerson

Emmitt Smith

Terry Allen

Tomlinson

Ricky Williams

....

Lamont Jordan.

And for those of you who use the "he was playing behind a HoFer" crutch about not getting a chance....

Lamont was the backup and never even gave Martin a run for his money for the starting job while Martin was injured or faltered a few seasons back. Here's a novel idea....maybe he was never given a chance cause he simply wasn't good enough. Lamont was never a given a chance at a starter because the coaches and FO never saw him as being capable. I mean, Lamont didn't even vulture any carries away from Martin while he was there....Lamont just got all the scraps from Martin, precisely like this year. If Lamont was good enough, then we would have seen him being used more to make use of his skill and to not put so much of a strain on your aged "HoFer" back, Martin.

Martin hasn't been that amazing while Lamont has been there that Lamont couldn't have been given more responsibility at some point. I could see if Martin was having HoF years these past 4 years, but that isn't the case by any means. Lamont was simply a backup RB.

IF he was skilled enough, then he would have been given a chance....instead of he was never given a chance cause he played behind a future HoFer.

Oh Friday, L. Jordan has been scouted by N.Turner as a RB who could produce and has great value. N. Turner worked his ### off persuading Jordan to come and play for his team and he lead the charge in getting him signed. And judging by Turner's background on scouting RB's I will give L. Jordan a little more credit then being a bad back up who could not challenge Martin for the starting job. Your right...... Martin has been a below avg RB these last few years and he will never be remembered for one of the better and most consistent RB's to ever play the game

You are fishing. Check out the stats of Martin over the last 4 years. They are pretty darn good.

 

[jurb26]

However Norv Turner the undisputed Guru of RBs.

This comment is one I must ponder over, and one that requires some digging. Turner gets credit for molding the careers of some top RB, but I had to go back and check to see how much credit he actually was due. There is no question about the performance level of RB on Turner's teams, but I was curious as to how much of the success could really be bestowed on his ability to "pick" a RB.Turner was with the Rams from 1985 - 1990. For those with poor memories, the Rams had Eric Dickerson BEFORE Turner got there, and Dickerson only put up 2105/14 the year BEFORE Turner got the keys to the offense. After Dickerson was traded to the Colts, Charles White took over without missing a beat. The Rams later picked up Greg Bell, who had a couple of good seasons as a Top 15 or so RB in Buffalo but did do much better with the Rams.

Turner then went to Dallas from 1991 - 1993 . . . who already had Emmitt Smith BEFORE Turner got there. And we all know how that turned out, so there's no need to rehash that here.

Next stop, Washington from 1994 - 2000. One of his first orders of business was to import Terry Allen, a Top 5 -10 RB from Minnesota. The first RB that Turner actually "made" was Stephen Davis--who needed 4 years to get a chance to play.

On to San Diego for a year (2001). I don't know how much influence Turner had in the draft, but it was clear the Bolts did not want Michael Vick and they ended up with LT. Clearly an excellent selection--as LT had a great rookie year and flourished after Turner left.

On to Miami for 2002 and 2003, acquiring Ricky Williams who had one phenomenal year and another very good year for the Phins (after Ricky was first productive in N.O.). And of course, he went to Oakland last season.

I think part of the credit must go to Turner for his system, but I also think he had some good luck in starting out with HOF caliber talent or getting RB that were already proven. (He also had several cases where not so well known RB stepped right in and were productive.)

Just for ha-has, here are the stat lines for the most productive RB each year under Turner's offenses.

1985: Eric Dickerson 292-1234-12 rushing, 20-126-0 receiving (10th)

1986: Eric Dickerson 404-1821-11 rushing, 26-205-0 receiving (1st)

1987: Charles White 324-1374-11 rushing, 23-121-0 receiving (1st)

1988: Greg Bell 288-1212-16 rushing, 24-124-2 receiving (4th)

1989: Greg Bell 272-1137-15 rushing, 19-85-0 receiving (7th)

1990: Cleveland Gary 204-808-14 rushing, 30-150-1 receiving (6th)

1991: Emmitt Smith 365-1563-12 rushing, 49-258-1 receiving (3rd)

1992: Emmitt Smith 373-1713-18 rushing, 59-335-1 receiving (1st)

1993: Emmitt Smith 283-1486-9 rushing, 57-414-1 receiving (1st)

1994: Ricky Ervins 185-650-3 rushing, 51-293-1 receiving (28th)

1995: Terry Allen 338-1309-10 rushing, 31-232-1 receiving (7th)

1996: Terry Allen 347-1353-21 rushing, 32-194-0 receiving (1st)

1997: Terry Allen 210-724-4 rushing, 20-172-1 receiving (28th)

1998: Terry Allen 148-700-2 rushing, 17-128-0 receiving (31st)

1999: Stephen Davis 290-1405-17 rushing, 23-111-0 receiving (4th)

2000: Stephen Davis 332-1318-11 rushing, 33-313-0 receiving (12th)

2001: LaDainian Tomlinson 339-1236-10 rushing, 59-367-0 receiving (7th)

2002: Ricky Williams 383-1853-16 rushing, 47-363-1 receiving (2nd)

2003: Ricky Williams 392-1372-9 rushing, 50-351-1 receiving (9th)

2004: Amos Zereoue 112-425-3 rushing, 39-284-0 receiving (39th)

That averages out to 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 (11th). That average would amount to 236 fantasy points, and using 2004 rankings, that would have ranked as the #8 RB.

In 20 years, Turner produced 15 Top 10 seasons including the #1 fantasy RB 5 times (and 4 different RB ranked #1 mind you).

So that's the Turner story. the question remains is Jordan in the same class as some of the other RB . . . and you all can decide that one on your own.

I'm begining to like Jordan even more. Nice work.

Look at those RBs and you no one in there right mind can tell me Lamont has close to the skill that those RBs have.Eric Dickerson

Emmitt Smith

Terry Allen

Tomlinson

Ricky Williams

....

Lamont Jordan.

And for those of you who use the "he was playing behind a HoFer" crutch about not getting a chance....

Lamont was the backup and never even gave Martin a run for his money for the starting job while Martin was injured or faltered a few seasons back. Here's a novel idea....maybe he was never given a chance cause he simply wasn't good enough. Lamont was never a given a chance at a starter because the coaches and FO never saw him as being capable. I mean, Lamont didn't even vulture any carries away from Martin while he was there....Lamont just got all the scraps from Martin, precisely like this year. If Lamont was good enough, then we would have seen him being used more to make use of his skill and to not put so much of a strain on your aged "HoFer" back, Martin.

Martin hasn't been that amazing while Lamont has been there that Lamont couldn't have been given more responsibility at some point. I could see if Martin was having HoF years these past 4 years, but that isn't the case by any means. Lamont was simply a backup RB.

IF he was skilled enough, then he would have been given a chance....instead of he was never given a chance cause he played behind a future HoFer.

Oh Friday, L. Jordan has been scouted by N.Turner as a RB who could produce and has great value. N. Turner worked his ### off persuading Jordan to come and play for his team and he lead the charge in getting him signed. And judging by Turner's background on scouting RB's I will give L. Jordan a little more credit then being a bad back up who could not challenge Martin for the starting job. Your right...... Martin has been a below avg RB these last few years and he will never be remembered for one of the better and most consistent RB's to ever play the game

You are fishing. Check out the stats of Martin over the last 4 years. They are pretty darn good.

Seriously, this has to be fishing at this point.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Curtis Martin| 2001 nyj | 16 | 333 1513 4.5 10 | 53 320 6.0 0 || 2002 nyj | 16 | 261 1094 4.2 7 | 49 362 7.4 0 || 2003 nyj | 16 | 323 1308 4.0 2 | 42 262 6.2 0 || 2004 nyj | 16 | 371 1697 4.6 12 | 41 245 6.0 2Rushing rankings2001 - 2nd

2002 - 15th

2003 - 13th

2004 - 1st

Your aged back is ranking in the middle of the pack for rushing and you don't even let your new young player get a chance? What harm would it be to let your new young stud back get some carries while Martin isn't producing great/good numbers? If Jordan was to eventually be the starter down the line, why wouldn't you let him get his feet wet? Why do you think that would be?

My guess...the coaches knew Lamont wasn't good enough to even give him that chance or they never saw him as a starter. He was what he was...a backup

 

[fridayfrenzy]

However Norv Turner the undisputed Guru of RBs.

This comment is one I must ponder over, and one that requires some digging. Turner gets credit for molding the careers of some top RB, but I had to go back and check to see how much credit he actually was due. There is no question about the performance level of RB on Turner's teams, but I was curious as to how much of the success could really be bestowed on his ability to "pick" a RB.Turner was with the Rams from 1985 - 1990. For those with poor memories, the Rams had Eric Dickerson BEFORE Turner got there, and Dickerson only put up 2105/14 the year BEFORE Turner got the keys to the offense. After Dickerson was traded to the Colts, Charles White took over without missing a beat. The Rams later picked up Greg Bell, who had a couple of good seasons as a Top 15 or so RB in Buffalo but did do much better with the Rams.

Turner then went to Dallas from 1991 - 1993 . . . who already had Emmitt Smith BEFORE Turner got there. And we all know how that turned out, so there's no need to rehash that here.

Next stop, Washington from 1994 - 2000. One of his first orders of business was to import Terry Allen, a Top 5 -10 RB from Minnesota. The first RB that Turner actually "made" was Stephen Davis--who needed 4 years to get a chance to play.

On to San Diego for a year (2001). I don't know how much influence Turner had in the draft, but it was clear the Bolts did not want Michael Vick and they ended up with LT. Clearly an excellent selection--as LT had a great rookie year and flourished after Turner left.

On to Miami for 2002 and 2003, acquiring Ricky Williams who had one phenomenal year and another very good year for the Phins (after Ricky was first productive in N.O.). And of course, he went to Oakland last season.

I think part of the credit must go to Turner for his system, but I also think he had some good luck in starting out with HOF caliber talent or getting RB that were already proven. (He also had several cases where not so well known RB stepped right in and were productive.)

Just for ha-has, here are the stat lines for the most productive RB each year under Turner's offenses.

1985: Eric Dickerson 292-1234-12 rushing, 20-126-0 receiving (10th)

1986: Eric Dickerson 404-1821-11 rushing, 26-205-0 receiving (1st)

1987: Charles White 324-1374-11 rushing, 23-121-0 receiving (1st)

1988: Greg Bell 288-1212-16 rushing, 24-124-2 receiving (4th)

1989: Greg Bell 272-1137-15 rushing, 19-85-0 receiving (7th)

1990: Cleveland Gary 204-808-14 rushing, 30-150-1 receiving (6th)

1991: Emmitt Smith 365-1563-12 rushing, 49-258-1 receiving (3rd)

1992: Emmitt Smith 373-1713-18 rushing, 59-335-1 receiving (1st)

1993: Emmitt Smith 283-1486-9 rushing, 57-414-1 receiving (1st)

1994: Ricky Ervins 185-650-3 rushing, 51-293-1 receiving (28th)

1995: Terry Allen 338-1309-10 rushing, 31-232-1 receiving (7th)

1996: Terry Allen 347-1353-21 rushing, 32-194-0 receiving (1st)

1997: Terry Allen 210-724-4 rushing, 20-172-1 receiving (28th)

1998: Terry Allen 148-700-2 rushing, 17-128-0 receiving (31st)

1999: Stephen Davis 290-1405-17 rushing, 23-111-0 receiving (4th)

2000: Stephen Davis 332-1318-11 rushing, 33-313-0 receiving (12th)

2001: LaDainian Tomlinson 339-1236-10 rushing, 59-367-0 receiving (7th)

2002: Ricky Williams 383-1853-16 rushing, 47-363-1 receiving (2nd)

2003: Ricky Williams 392-1372-9 rushing, 50-351-1 receiving (9th)

2004: Amos Zereoue 112-425-3 rushing, 39-284-0 receiving (39th)

That averages out to 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 (11th). That average would amount to 236 fantasy points, and using 2004 rankings, that would have ranked as the #8 RB.

In 20 years, Turner produced 15 Top 10 seasons including the #1 fantasy RB 5 times (and 4 different RB ranked #1 mind you).

So that's the Turner story. the question remains is Jordan in the same class as some of the other RB . . . and you all can decide that one on your own.

I'm begining to like Jordan even more. Nice work.

Look at those RBs and you no one in there right mind can tell me Lamont has close to the skill that those RBs have.Eric Dickerson

Emmitt Smith

Terry Allen

Tomlinson

Ricky Williams

....

Lamont Jordan.

And for those of you who use the "he was playing behind a HoFer" crutch about not getting a chance....

Lamont was the backup and never even gave Martin a run for his money for the starting job while Martin was injured or faltered a few seasons back. Here's a novel idea....maybe he was never given a chance cause he simply wasn't good enough. Lamont was never a given a chance at a starter because the coaches and FO never saw him as being capable. I mean, Lamont didn't even vulture any carries away from Martin while he was there....Lamont just got all the scraps from Martin, precisely like this year. If Lamont was good enough, then we would have seen him being used more to make use of his skill and to not put so much of a strain on your aged "HoFer" back, Martin.

Martin hasn't been that amazing while Lamont has been there that Lamont couldn't have been given more responsibility at some point. I could see if Martin was having HoF years these past 4 years, but that isn't the case by any means. Lamont was simply a backup RB.

IF he was skilled enough, then he would have been given a chance....instead of he was never given a chance cause he played behind a future HoFer.

Oh Friday, L. Jordan has been scouted by N.Turner as a RB who could produce and has great value. N. Turner worked his ### off persuading Jordan to come and play for his team and he lead the charge in getting him signed. And judging by Turner's background on scouting RB's I will give L. Jordan a little more credit then being a bad back up who could not challenge Martin for the starting job. Your right...... Martin has been a below avg RB these last few years and he will never be remembered for one of the better and most consistent RB's to ever play the game

You are fishing. Check out the stats of Martin over the last 4 years. They are pretty darn good.

Seriously, this has to be fishing at this point.

I know, god forbid someone disagrees with the opinion that Lamont was never given a chance cause of who was playing in front of him, and instead, being of the opinion that it was Lamont's skill itself. Ya, thats gotta be fishing,

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Oh Friday,

L. Jordan has been scouted by N.Turner as a RB who could produce and has great value.

1. Great value? Lamont was signed for too much money in a RB flooded market where teams can't give away RBs like Henry, James and Alexander.2. Weren't Zereoue and Hambrick also brought in by Turner? How did that pan out?

From what I have heard about it, it seems Al Davis is the one who chased Lamont, not Turner.

 

[David Yudkin]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD2001STL 4-34-20-02002BUF 7-32-7-0NE 1-3-17-0MIA 4-11-10-0JAX 12-34-42-0 SD 13-107-12-1IND 20-102-9-22003WAS 15-48-(-7)-0MIA 10-32-(-2)-0NE 15-53-34-0Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

And people wonder why he wasn't given a chance?

 

[jurb26]

However Norv Turner the undisputed Guru of RBs.

This comment is one I must ponder over, and one that requires some digging. Turner gets credit for molding the careers of some top RB, but I had to go back and check to see how much credit he actually was due. There is no question about the performance level of RB on Turner's teams, but I was curious as to how much of the success could really be bestowed on his ability to "pick" a RB.Turner was with the Rams from 1985 - 1990. For those with poor memories, the Rams had Eric Dickerson BEFORE Turner got there, and Dickerson only put up 2105/14 the year BEFORE Turner got the keys to the offense. After Dickerson was traded to the Colts, Charles White took over without missing a beat. The Rams later picked up Greg Bell, who had a couple of good seasons as a Top 15 or so RB in Buffalo but did do much better with the Rams.

Turner then went to Dallas from 1991 - 1993 . . . who already had Emmitt Smith BEFORE Turner got there. And we all know how that turned out, so there's no need to rehash that here.

Next stop, Washington from 1994 - 2000. One of his first orders of business was to import Terry Allen, a Top 5 -10 RB from Minnesota. The first RB that Turner actually "made" was Stephen Davis--who needed 4 years to get a chance to play.

On to San Diego for a year (2001). I don't know how much influence Turner had in the draft, but it was clear the Bolts did not want Michael Vick and they ended up with LT. Clearly an excellent selection--as LT had a great rookie year and flourished after Turner left.

On to Miami for 2002 and 2003, acquiring Ricky Williams who had one phenomenal year and another very good year for the Phins (after Ricky was first productive in N.O.). And of course, he went to Oakland last season.

I think part of the credit must go to Turner for his system, but I also think he had some good luck in starting out with HOF caliber talent or getting RB that were already proven. (He also had several cases where not so well known RB stepped right in and were productive.)

Just for ha-has, here are the stat lines for the most productive RB each year under Turner's offenses.

1985: Eric Dickerson 292-1234-12 rushing, 20-126-0 receiving (10th)

1986: Eric Dickerson 404-1821-11 rushing, 26-205-0 receiving (1st)

1987: Charles White 324-1374-11 rushing, 23-121-0 receiving (1st)

1988: Greg Bell 288-1212-16 rushing, 24-124-2 receiving (4th)

1989: Greg Bell 272-1137-15 rushing, 19-85-0 receiving (7th)

1990: Cleveland Gary 204-808-14 rushing, 30-150-1 receiving (6th)

1991: Emmitt Smith 365-1563-12 rushing, 49-258-1 receiving (3rd)

1992: Emmitt Smith 373-1713-18 rushing, 59-335-1 receiving (1st)

1993: Emmitt Smith 283-1486-9 rushing, 57-414-1 receiving (1st)

1994: Ricky Ervins 185-650-3 rushing, 51-293-1 receiving (28th)

1995: Terry Allen 338-1309-10 rushing, 31-232-1 receiving (7th)

1996: Terry Allen 347-1353-21 rushing, 32-194-0 receiving (1st)

1997: Terry Allen 210-724-4 rushing, 20-172-1 receiving (28th)

1998: Terry Allen 148-700-2 rushing, 17-128-0 receiving (31st)

1999: Stephen Davis 290-1405-17 rushing, 23-111-0 receiving (4th)

2000: Stephen Davis 332-1318-11 rushing, 33-313-0 receiving (12th)

2001: LaDainian Tomlinson 339-1236-10 rushing, 59-367-0 receiving (7th)

2002: Ricky Williams 383-1853-16 rushing, 47-363-1 receiving (2nd)

2003: Ricky Williams 392-1372-9 rushing, 50-351-1 receiving (9th)

2004: Amos Zereoue 112-425-3 rushing, 39-284-0 receiving (39th)

That averages out to 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 (11th). That average would amount to 236 fantasy points, and using 2004 rankings, that would have ranked as the #8 RB.

In 20 years, Turner produced 15 Top 10 seasons including the #1 fantasy RB 5 times (and 4 different RB ranked #1 mind you).

So that's the Turner story. the question remains is Jordan in the same class as some of the other RB . . . and you all can decide that one on your own.

I'm begining to like Jordan even more. Nice work.

Look at those RBs and you no one in there right mind can tell me Lamont has close to the skill that those RBs have.Eric Dickerson

Emmitt Smith

Terry Allen

Tomlinson

Ricky Williams

....

Lamont Jordan.

And for those of you who use the "he was playing behind a HoFer" crutch about not getting a chance....

Lamont was the backup and never even gave Martin a run for his money for the starting job while Martin was injured or faltered a few seasons back. Here's a novel idea....maybe he was never given a chance cause he simply wasn't good enough. Lamont was never a given a chance at a starter because the coaches and FO never saw him as being capable. I mean, Lamont didn't even vulture any carries away from Martin while he was there....Lamont just got all the scraps from Martin, precisely like this year. If Lamont was good enough, then we would have seen him being used more to make use of his skill and to not put so much of a strain on your aged "HoFer" back, Martin.

Martin hasn't been that amazing while Lamont has been there that Lamont couldn't have been given more responsibility at some point. I could see if Martin was having HoF years these past 4 years, but that isn't the case by any means. Lamont was simply a backup RB.

IF he was skilled enough, then he would have been given a chance....instead of he was never given a chance cause he played behind a future HoFer.

Oh Friday, L. Jordan has been scouted by N.Turner as a RB who could produce and has great value. N. Turner worked his ### off persuading Jordan to come and play for his team and he lead the charge in getting him signed. And judging by Turner's background on scouting RB's I will give L. Jordan a little more credit then being a bad back up who could not challenge Martin for the starting job. Your right...... Martin has been a below avg RB these last few years and he will never be remembered for one of the better and most consistent RB's to ever play the game

You are fishing. Check out the stats of Martin over the last 4 years. They are pretty darn good.

Seriously, this has to be fishing at this point.

I know, god forbid someone disagrees with the opinion that Lamont was never given a chance cause of who was playing in front of him, and instead, being of the opinion that it was Lamont's skill itself. Ya, thats gotta be fishing,

1st of all, yes those are some great RBs. Not all of them were super talented though. Terry Allen and Steven Davis to name a few. Why could Jordan not be on par with either of them. Also, to simply assume that Jordan is of less talent would be shortsighted. He may, or may not be as latented. Why don't we simply let him PLAY this year and show us before assuming we are the know it alls of RB talent. As for his time in NY. All that has showed us in some flashes of his abiltiy as a player, none of which can be used to greatly assess him as a player. More than anything, it showed that NYJ is and has been commited to Martin and are willing to stick by him (unlike Den). Is that such a bad thing in todays NFL. Teams that are commited to productive players? Several other RBs have found themsleves in a similar postition... Holmes and Green being the most prominent. Barry Sanders is a great example in his college days. This in no way ment they were bad or sub-par players. Simply that the current teams they were on had a commitment to another RB and stuck by it never giving the other guy a serious shot. Jordan has had more than 10 carries in a game only 11 times in his career so far. He has never had 20 in a game and went for 15+ only twice. Do you seriously believe that this is a legetimate shot at "winning" a starting job from a HoF RB? If so, then there is simply no point to go on in the debate as we simply see things far too differently.

 

[jurb26]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

I dont' know where these numbers came from, but they are not even close to being accurate.

 

[David Yudkin]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

I dont' know where these numbers came from, but they are not even close to being accurate.

These were the games when Martin had a diminished workload (or barely much of a workload at all).

 

[jurb26]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

I dont' know where these numbers came from, but they are not even close to being accurate.

These were the games when Martin had a diminished workload (or barely much of a workload at all).

Maybe you should look over Jordan's career again on NFL.com and Profootball reference. because these don't even come close to matching up.I mean seriously, you have them playing teams in years that never happend.

 

[gman8343]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

I dont' know where these numbers came from, but they are not even close to being accurate.

These were the games when Martin had a diminished workload (or barely much of a workload at all).

Maybe you should look over Jordan's career again on NFL.com and Profootball reference. because these don't even come close to matching up.I mean seriously, you have them playing teams in years that never happend.

2001 - 2003 never happend??

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Those must have playoff games in it as well...thats all.

 

[jurb26]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

I dont' know where these numbers came from, but they are not even close to being accurate.

These were the games when Martin had a diminished workload (or barely much of a workload at all).

Maybe you should look over Jordan's career again on NFL.com and Profootball reference. because these don't even come close to matching up.I mean seriously, you have them playing teams in years that never happend.

2001 - 2003 never happend??

??? NYJ never played Indy in 2002. Besides that, the numbers don't match up.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

I dont' know where these numbers came from, but they are not even close to being accurate.

These were the games when Martin had a diminished workload (or barely much of a workload at all).

Maybe you should look over Jordan's career again on NFL.com and Profootball reference. because these don't even come close to matching up.I mean seriously, you have them playing teams in years that never happend.

2001 - 2003 never happend??

??? NYJ never played Indy in 2002. Besides that, the numbers don't match up.

AFC Wildcard Game: won 41 - 0 vs. Indianapolis ColtsNever doubt Yudkin for stats!!!!!

 

[jurb26]

Those must have playoff games in it as well...thats all.

That makes sense then. Still, whats up with the 03 stats?Vs. Wash, he had 6 carries, 0 yds, thats it

And the Mia and NE games don't match up.

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Those must have playoff games in it as well...thats all.

That makes sense then. Still, whats up with the 03 stats?Vs. Wash, he had 6 carries, 0 yds, thats it

And the Mia and NE games don't match up.

I just as stumped as you.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

And people wonder why he wasn't given a chance?

What, that is ridiculous to go by those numbers alone. You make a note of getting 10 or less rushing attempts in a game 5 times. That is hardly worth evaluating a starting RB when he gets 1 carry or 4 carries in a game. Whether it be due to offense play calling or injury you can't use those numbers and get any sort of reliability or validity. Also, the guy has been given the ball 10 times or more in a game only 11 times in his career thus far. He has only recieved 15 or more touches in a game 2 times with 18 being the most.

I think L. Jordan is a better player right now then when he first came into the league so looking back to his rookie year or even 2 years ago means nothing at this point. Look at this year what he did which best justifies where he is going in his career: he ran for 479 yds on 93 rushes, he also added 112 r/yds. Yes, there was some worn down defenses and this and that. But to have a 5.1 ypc average on 93 touches shows that you have some talent and can play in this league. I don't care what defences you were playing against. I don't think it is fair to evaluate L. Jordan to any starters in the league yet and critisize him until he has finished his first year as a starter.

 

[Marc Levin]

EDDIE GEORGE:

2002 Tennessee Titans 16g 1165yds 12TDs

2003 Tennessee Titans 16g 1031yds 5TDs

CURTIS MARTIN:

2002 New York Jets 16g 1094yds 5TDs

2003 New York Jets 16g 1308yds 2TDs

So, George was in SERIOUS decline, but Martin never was....

If it wasn't for Martin's "Comeback Player of the Year"-type season compared to George's backup duty in Dallas last year, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Fact remains, Chris Brown replaced Eddie George after the numbers George put up in 2003, but Lamont Jordan could not beat out Curtis Martin after the stats Martin put up the same year!!! But I forgot, you know more than NFL coaches do....

You are omitting YPC, but you make some very excellent points - and it def. helps that your points support my position.

 

[Marc Levin]

I'm begining to like Jordan even more. Nice work.

I think you completely missed the point of the post due to personal bias in wanting to see Jordan succeed.

 

[Marc Levin]

I don't understand all this talk of "not being able to beat out Martin."

I dont get it either. People are acting as if this was an open competition for the starting gig. It wasn't and NEVER was!

Yes, I agree. People are assuming Jordan is bad because of not beatting out Martin; that is fishing at its finest.

I don't know about "fishing" but it is a bad assumption to say he has no "talent" b/c he couldn;t beat out Martin. What we do know is that Jordan, in five years with the Jets, was never considered by the coaches that saw him every day as able to fill the Jets starting needs as well as Martin - even an injured Martin - could. Meanwhile Brown, without any gametime experience and with an injured rookie year and training camp, proved to his coaches that he was better for the Titans' starting job than their vet in Eddie George.

We can subjectively talk talent of the two till the cows come home, but what we def. have in Brown is a top-5 back while healthy. And what we have in Jordan is a question mark at talent and what might be a decent system (though, the Raiders running game WAS in dead last place last year, so let's not go overboard on this "Turner creates fantasy backs" line - the Raiders would have made DRASTIC improvement by creating a running game that rises out of the bottom ten - so let's not think the Raiders are suddenly a 2500 rushing yard team).

Jordan MIGHT be good this year, but he might not - either way, there is little evidence that he WILL be good. Meanwhile, there is a lot of evidence indicating Brown can put up top-5 RB numbers.

Jordan's sitch reminds me, actually, of Thomas Jones going to the Bears. If Jordan stays healthy all year, I think it is a virtual lock that he tops 1G rushing, probably tops 1200 rushing, and likely gets about 3-500 receiving (asuming Turner doesn't go to the RBBC out of the backfield system that he employed with success last year) - let's give him 8 TDs for the heck of it.

Even giving him the numbers I cited, there is no evidence indicating that those numbers will top Brown's - if we are giving it the old comparison between the two, which is what I thought the point of this thread was all about.

 

[Marc Levin]

2. Weren't Zereoue and Hambrick also brought in by Turner? How did that pan out?

I was JUST about to make this point.BTW, the continued presence of Zereioue on the team means you can kiss a lot of Jordan receiving numbers bye-bye.For Jordan to get into the top 10, he'll need over 1500 yards rushing and/or a LOT of rushing TDs.For Chris Brown to get in the top-10, he needs to stay healthy for at least 13 games.

 

[Marc Levin]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

Then there is last year where CuMar was clearly the man, yet Jordan had over 100 yards rushing against Miami. It seems clear to me that whatever talent Jordan has, it was not the kind of talent that the JETS wanted starting for them. If it was, he probably woul dhav efound the field a lot more often.

Doesn't mean he is not talented per se - just that he is not what the JETS were looking for when they originally drafted him - and the Jets obviously decided to continue with what they had instead of adjusting their line and rushing scheme to accomodate Jordan's skill set.

 

[Chaka]

In the games where Martin was hampered and they needed Jordan to produce . . .

Carries, Rushing Yards, Receiving Yards, TD

2001

STL 4-34-20-0

2002

BUF 7-32-7-0

NE 1-3-17-0

MIA 4-11-10-0

JAX 12-34-42-0

SD 13-107-12-1

IND 20-102-9-2

2003

WAS 15-48-(-7)-0

MIA 10-32-(-2)-0

NE 15-53-34-0

Those were the games where Martin was dinged up and Jordan had to tote the rock.

C'mon Yuds be fair. 2002 in particular is when the Vinny Testeverde Experience was found choking on it's own vomit.2002 v Buf is the only game where you have an argument, the Jets only ran the ball 11 times total but still managed a 37-31 win.

The NE game was a 44-7 a## kicking, not much running going on there.

Miami 30-3 butt whoopin' same thing.

Jax opened up a 28-3 can of whoop-a## on the Jets.

Those don't sound like games in which the running game had an opportunity to be a factor. And if you remember how bad Vinny was then you know the running game never had a chance.

In week 5 (actually 2nd half of week 4 v Jax) Chad Pennington took over for an ineffective Vinny and Curtis put up 996 yards rushing and 7 TDs on 229 carries (4.3ypc) the rest of the way. So much for his ankle problem and Lamont's big opportunity.

This is not to say that Lamont is the next great thing but I think people on both sides of this argument are going overboard. Lamont's career numbers are solid AND he was playing behind a HoFer who is not in decline regardless of what Kid Fisto and, disappointingly, Levin think. Both situations can coexist peacefully, the Ahman Green comparison is probably the closest that comes to this situation. Not to say Jordan = Green only that the situations are comparable.

Also I think most posters on this topic would take Brown if health were not such a concern. But it is a concern, a huge, glaring, gaping, massive concern. I have Jordan around #13-16 on my board but I am still taking him to finish with more fantasy points than Brown because I think Brown is a mortal lock to miss 20-30% of his teams offensive snaps.

 

[Marc Levin]

AND he was playing behind a HoFer who is not in decline regardless of what Kid Fisto and, disappointingly, Levin think.

???Putting words in my mouth?

 

[Marc Levin]

AND he was playing behind a HoFer who is not in decline regardless of what Kid Fisto and, disappointingly, Levin think. 

???Putting words in my mouth?

I take that back - he WAS clearly in decline in 2002 and 2003 due to a slew of VERY painful injuries. He is STILL in decline - he is certainly past his prime, right? That means he is in decline.I, of course, never argued that Martin "sucked" and Jordan "should have" beat him out. But, JOrdan should have been able to win the start those two years IF he was the kind of talent the Jets wanted back there. he wasn't - the Jets were obviously satisfied running an injured CuMar out there every week and letting Jordan spell him rather than giving Jordan the start or even the bulk of the carries - if CuMar couldn't go effectively, the team would abandon the run rather than give the bulk of the work to Jordan. THAT is clear.

 

[Chaka]

I take that back - he WAS clearly in decline in 2002 and 2003 due to a slew of VERY painful injuries. He is STILL in decline - he is certainly past his prime, right? That means he is in decline.

Curtis is past his prime only in the fact that he is 32. We all agree that he SHOULD be in decline, but his statistics on the field do not demonstrate any decline at all. He had the ankle injury in 2002 but still averaged 4.3 ypc when he got healthy and Pennington got into the game. He only got into the endzone 2 times rushing in 2003 but he still ran for 1300 (4 ypc). Those are not declining numbers. Last season he had a career year. Where is this decline?

I, of course, never argued that Martin "sucked" and Jordan "should have" beat him out. But, JOrdan should have been able to win the start those two years IF he was the kind of talent the Jets wanted back there. he wasn't - the Jets were obviously satisfied running an injured CuMar out there every week and letting Jordan spell him rather than giving Jordan the start or even the bulk of the carries - if CuMar couldn't go effectively, the team would abandon the run rather than give the bulk of the work to Jordan. THAT is clear.

I do not think anyone has said that Martin sucked. My comment was precipitated by your agreement with one of Fisto's comments (Marc Levin Posted Yesterday, 11:59 PM) re: Curtis v Eddie declining, and I still don't know how that incomplete and deceptive data supports anything but the most biased views.My point is that Jordan's only legitimate opportunity was in 2002 when Curtis had his ankle injury. Unfortunately the Jets got slaughtered in three of those games. They didn't abandon the run because it was ineffective, they had no choice. A## kicking's like that are a total team effort. And when Pennington came in to save the day Curtis was healthy and effective.I will not fault the Jets coaching staff for running Curtis out there every week. He is effective, trustworthy and gets the job done. I also think that Jordan b######g about carries before the 2003 & 2004 season probably did not help his cause very much. OTOH Herm didn't almost get into a full blown brawl with his Bishop Harris (the RB coach) on the sidelines of the Charger playoff game because he thought Jordan was ineffective and unworthy of PT. He was livid that Knucklehead Hackett didn't get Jordan into the game.fyi I do not own any players. I am in one 12 team redraft league. I hope Jordan does well and I hope Brown stays healthy.

 

[UFO]

I keep hearing that Chris Brown has proven he is a top 5. Well he finished 24 in scoring in my league. Before you jump on me I know he was out a number of games but there lies the problem. In his first year he had a number of ailments that kept him out considerable time. He is playing on a team that will be considerably worse on D and be in many more shoot-outs and oh by the way they also lost their biggest offensive threat in Mason. look for Bennett, Brown and McNair to have bad years.With Lamont Jordan I have no idea what he will do but as a #2 a like his upside a bit more. All that Chris Brown has shown so far is that he is talented but can't stay on the field. And bye the way...it was Turner who wanted Jordan not Davis. IF Jordan stays healthy he will be a top 10-15 RB guaranteed with the upside of being higher...again until Chris Brown can prove he can stay on the field he is as big or bigger a risk than Jordan IMO.

 

[Banger]

AND he was playing behind a HoFer who is not in decline regardless of what Kid Fisto and, disappointingly, Levin think. 

???Putting words in my mouth?

I take that back - he WAS clearly in decline in 2002 and 2003 due to a slew of VERY painful injuries. He is STILL in decline - he is certainly past his prime, right? That means he is in decline.I, of course, never argued that Martin "sucked" and Jordan "should have" beat him out. But, JOrdan should have been able to win the start those two years IF he was the kind of talent the Jets wanted back there. he wasn't - the Jets were obviously satisfied running an injured CuMar out there every week and letting Jordan spell him rather than giving Jordan the start or even the bulk of the carries - if CuMar couldn't go effectively, the team would abandon the run rather than give the bulk of the work to Jordan. THAT is clear.

Exactly

 

[jurb26]

I'm begining to like Jordan even more.  Nice work.

I think you completely missed the point of the post due to personal bias in wanting to see Jordan succeed.

Huh? Personal bias? I don't own nor have I ever owned Jordan. I'm not a Jets or a Raider fan. I couldn't care less if the guy bust or is great. My position is based upon the factors that I see.

 

[jurb26]

I'm begining to like Jordan even more.  Nice work.

I think you completely missed the point of the post due to personal bias in wanting to see Jordan succeed.

Umm what exactly was the point of the post then? What I see is a coach who has had an elite RB talent only 8 years out of a 20 year career. Regardless of that, his starting RB has averaged: 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 He also produced a top 10 RB 15 of thoase 20 seasons. The only times he was unable to produce a top 10 RB were RBBC situations:

94 Skins: Brooks, Ervins, Mithchell

97 Skins: Allen and Davis

98 Skins: Allen and Davis

04 Raiders: Cluster**** not worth naming everyone.

*2000 was the only year of his career in which he had a featured runner and he did not make the top 10. That runner was Davis and he finished a terrible 12th.

The guy made Charles White and Terrry Allen the #1 RB and also made Greg Bell a top 5 RB. How is that not impressive?

So ask yourself this. Do you really see a RBBC in Oak this year? Do you really think it is that unlikely that Jordan end up having ability/talent on par with Davis, Allen, White, Bell, and Gary? Do you really think that the addition of Moss is not going to have a very positive impact on this O as a whole? Is this even really a question of talent vs. talent when comparing him to Brown for this year?

You seem to want to simply skip over any of my points and try to throw an insult in place of information. I have to ask you however, what is so dooming about the set of stats that David produced for us and what is the huge point that I am "missing" due to personal bias?

In closing, I find it very unlikely that:

1. Oak has a RBBC this year

2. Jordan plays less games than Brown

With the new O in Oakland and Turner's track record, this is enough to make me value Jordan more than Brown heading into this season.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

I'm begining to like Jordan even more.  Nice work.

I think you completely missed the point of the post due to personal bias in wanting to see Jordan succeed.

Umm what exactly was the point of the post then? What I see is a coach who has had an elite RB talent only 8 years out of a 20 year career. Regardless of that, his starting RB has averaged: 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 He also produced a top 10 RB 15 of thoase 20 seasons. The only times he was unable to produce a top 10 RB were RBBC situations:

94 Skins: Brooks, Ervins, Mithchell

97 Skins: Allen and Davis

98 Skins: Allen and Davis

04 Raiders: Cluster**** not worth naming everyone.

*2000 was the only year of his career in which he had a featured runner and he did not make the top 10. That runner was Davis and he finished a terrible 12th.

The guy made Charles White and Terrry Allen the #1 RB and also made Greg Bell a top 5 RB. How is that not impressive?

So ask yourself this. Do you really see a RBBC in Oak this year? Do you really think it is that unlikely that Jordan end up having ability/talent on par with Davis, Allen, White, Bell, and Gary? Do you really think that the addition of Moss is not going to have a very positive impact on this O as a whole? Is this even really a question of talent vs. talent when comparing him to Brown for this year?

You seem to want to simply skip over any of my points and try to throw an insult in place of information. I have to ask you however, what is so dooming about the set of stats that David produced for us and what is the huge point that I am "missing" due to personal bias?

In closing, I find it very unlikely that:

1. Oak has a RBBC this year

2. Jordan plays less games than Brown

With the new O in Oakland and Turner's track record, this is enough to make me value Jordan more than Brown heading into this season.

Great post, and if it would have come from me it would have looked like I was biast, but since it game from someone who does not own L. Jordan it takes away the biast.Everyone keeps on saying that if Brown remains healthy he is a lock to be top 10 or even top 5. This could be true but I think the Titans offence could suck this year and have a direct influence on Brown maybe not finishing top 10 even if he is healthy. Also, the Titans know of Brown's ability to get dinged up so maybe he gets less carries throughout the year to keep him from getting hurt. Fisher likes a work horse back that he could pound the ball with 20 times a game and will consistently be there every week as was the case with E. George. Maybe the talk of the titans drafting a RB is not such a rumour and maybe Brown's injury woes might have him on a shorter leash then we think (of course only assumpitions).

This could obviously be a very tight race b/w the two players.

 

[jurb26]

  Great post, and if it would have come from me it would have looked like I was biast, but since it game from someone who does not own L. Jordan it takes away the biast.

Everyone keeps on saying that if Brown remains healthy he is a lock to be top 10 or even top 5.  This could be true but I think the Titans offence could suck this year and have a direct influence on Brown maybe not finishing top 10 even if he is healthy.  Also, the Titans know of Brown's ability to get dinged up so maybe he gets less carries throughout the year to keep him from getting hurt.  Fisher likes a work horse back that he could pound the ball with 20 times a game and will consistently be there every week as was the case with E. George.  Maybe the talk of the titans drafting a RB is not such a rumour and maybe Brown's injury woes might have him on a shorter leash then we think (of course only assumpitions).

This could obviously be a very tight race b/w the two players.

Seriously, I don't know why an opposing view of the situation is demed biased now. I am not missusing any information and have stated the reasons for my stance several times throughout the thread I had thought. I can understand if you disagree with my points, but at least state them and the reasons why rather than simply falling back on the "biased" stance. I have no vested interest in either player other than OTHER people in my leagues own them. So in reality I shold hope that both do equally bad this year.

I'm only partly kidding about that.

Edit, I was actually a Brown owner last year in a redraft league and have been high on him for well over a year now which you can clearly see in some of my posts from last years. I still very much like the guy and would certainly draft him. As of now though, Jordan is higher on my board. So if anything, you would think I were "bias" towards Brown, not Jordan.

 

[Marc Levin]

I'm begining to like Jordan even more.  Nice work.

I think you completely missed the point of the post due to personal bias in wanting to see Jordan succeed.

Umm what exactly was the point of the post then? What I see is a coach who has had an elite RB talent only 8 years out of a 20 year career. Regardless of that, his starting RB has averaged: 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 He also produced a top 10 RB 15 of thoase 20 seasons. The only times he was unable to produce a top 10 RB were RBBC situations:

94 Skins: Brooks, Ervins, Mithchell

97 Skins: Allen and Davis

98 Skins: Allen and Davis

04 Raiders: Cluster**** not worth naming everyone.

*2000 was the only year of his career in which he had a featured runner and he did not make the top 10. That runner was Davis and he finished a terrible 12th.

The guy made Charles White and Terrry Allen the #1 RB and also made Greg Bell a top 5 RB. How is that not impressive?

So ask yourself this. Do you really see a RBBC in Oak this year? Do you really think it is that unlikely that Jordan end up having ability/talent on par with Davis, Allen, White, Bell, and Gary? Do you really think that the addition of Moss is not going to have a very positive impact on this O as a whole? Is this even really a question of talent vs. talent when comparing him to Brown for this year?

You seem to want to simply skip over any of my points and try to throw an insult in place of information. I have to ask you however, what is so dooming about the set of stats that David produced for us and what is the huge point that I am "missing" due to personal bias?

In closing, I find it very unlikely that:

1. Oak has a RBBC this year

2. Jordan plays less games than Brown

With the new O in Oakland and Turner's track record, this is enough to make me value Jordan more than Brown heading into this season.

Great post, and if it would have come from me it would have looked like I was biast, but since it game from someone who does not own L. Jordan it takes away the biast.Everyone keeps on saying that if Brown remains healthy he is a lock to be top 10 or even top 5. This could be true but I think the Titans offence could suck this year and have a direct influence on Brown maybe not finishing top 10 even if he is healthy. Also, the Titans know of Brown's ability to get dinged up so maybe he gets less carries throughout the year to keep him from getting hurt. Fisher likes a work horse back that he could pound the ball with 20 times a game and will consistently be there every week as was the case with E. George. Maybe the talk of the titans drafting a RB is not such a rumour and maybe Brown's injury woes might have him on a shorter leash then we think (of course only assumpitions).

This could obviously be a very tight race b/w the two players.

No - the point of the post was that Turner inherited a lot of talented RBs, that he may not have "produced" good fantasy RBs, but that he may have massaged systems that he had good RBs to exploit their talents, and that the only RBs he "imported" who had decent seasons were Allen and Ricky. And both Ricky and Turner entered a Wannie/JJ system that emphasized getting whoever was the main back 340 carries a year, regardless of production.Whlie Turner had good numbers over his career for his fantasy RBs, there was a very valid question raised whether it was Turner that created those great fantasy RBs or whether those fantasy RBs created his numbers, leaving us at square one whether it will be Jordan making Turner or the other way around.

By seeing those numbers and saying "wow, I like Jordan even more" you completely missed the point of Yudkin's data.

 

[Marc Levin]

By seeing those numbers and saying "wow, I like Jordan even more" you completely missed the point of Yudkin's data.

Incidentally:

I think part of the credit must go to Turner for his system, but I also think he had some good luck in starting out with HOF caliber talent or getting RB that were already proven.

 

[jurb26]

I'm begining to like Jordan even more.  Nice work.

I think you completely missed the point of the post due to personal bias in wanting to see Jordan succeed.

Umm what exactly was the point of the post then? What I see is a coach who has had an elite RB talent only 8 years out of a 20 year career. Regardless of that, his starting RB has averaged: 294-1235-14 rushing, 35-231-1 He also produced a top 10 RB 15 of thoase 20 seasons. The only times he was unable to produce a top 10 RB were RBBC situations:

94 Skins: Brooks, Ervins, Mithchell

97 Skins: Allen and Davis

98 Skins: Allen and Davis

04 Raiders: Cluster**** not worth naming everyone.

*2000 was the only year of his career in which he had a featured runner and he did not make the top 10. That runner was Davis and he finished a terrible 12th.

The guy made Charles White and Terrry Allen the #1 RB and also made Greg Bell a top 5 RB. How is that not impressive?

So ask yourself this. Do you really see a RBBC in Oak this year? Do you really think it is that unlikely that Jordan end up having ability/talent on par with Davis, Allen, White, Bell, and Gary? Do you really think that the addition of Moss is not going to have a very positive impact on this O as a whole? Is this even really a question of talent vs. talent when comparing him to Brown for this year?

You seem to want to simply skip over any of my points and try to throw an insult in place of information. I have to ask you however, what is so dooming about the set of stats that David produced for us and what is the huge point that I am "missing" due to personal bias?

In closing, I find it very unlikely that:

1. Oak has a RBBC this year

2. Jordan plays less games than Brown

With the new O in Oakland and Turner's track record, this is enough to make me value Jordan more than Brown heading into this season.

Great post, and if it would have come from me it would have looked like I was biast, but since it game from someone who does not own L. Jordan it takes away the biast.Everyone keeps on saying that if Brown remains healthy he is a lock to be top 10 or even top 5. This could be true but I think the Titans offence could suck this year and have a direct influence on Brown maybe not finishing top 10 even if he is healthy. Also, the Titans know of Brown's ability to get dinged up so maybe he gets less carries throughout the year to keep him from getting hurt. Fisher likes a work horse back that he could pound the ball with 20 times a game and will consistently be there every week as was the case with E. George. Maybe the talk of the titans drafting a RB is not such a rumour and maybe Brown's injury woes might have him on a shorter leash then we think (of course only assumpitions).

This could obviously be a very tight race b/w the two players.

No - the point of the post was that Turner inherited a lot of talented RBs, that he may not have "produced" good fantasy RBs, but that he may have massaged systems that he had good RBs to exploit their talents, and that the only RBs he "imported" who had decent seasons were Allen and Ricky. And both Ricky and Turner entered a Wannie/JJ system that emphasized getting whoever was the main back 340 carries a year, regardless of production.Whlie Turner had good numbers over his career for his fantasy RBs, there was a very valid question raised whether it was Turner that created those great fantasy RBs or whether those fantasy RBs created his numbers, leaving us at square one whether it will be Jordan making Turner or the other way around.

By seeing those numbers and saying "wow, I like Jordan even more" you completely missed the point of Yudkin's data.

If this were the case, how do you explain the fact that nearly every RB on that list had their BEST season ever under Turner as a Pro?The fact remains that Turner gets great production out of his starting RB when there is no RBBC. How they got there is trivial IMO. If they have the gig to themselves, they are top 10.

 

[Marc Levin]

If this were the case, how do you explain the fact that nearly every RB on that list had their BEST season ever under Turner as a Pro?

The fact remains that Turner gets great production out of his starting RB when there is no RBBC. How they got there is trivial IMO. If they have the gig to themselves, they are top 10.

No - it is NOT trivial - Turner inherited or acqured (in Ricky) a slew of pro-bowl caliber RBs and he enbtered systems where the run was emphasized and was producing - it is entirely material whether he had to build from scratch a running game (which is what he has ahead of him in Oakland) or whether he has had decent RB systems in place that he massaged to greatness (which is my contention).Liking Jordan "even more" in 2005 just b/c of Turner's presence is highly questionable strategy.

 

[jurb26]

If this were the case, how do you explain the fact that nearly every RB on that list had their BEST season ever under Turner as a Pro?

The fact remains that Turner gets great production out of his starting RB when there is no RBBC.  How they got there is trivial IMO.  If they have the gig to themselves, they are top 10.

No - it is NOT trivial - Turner inherited or acqured (in Ricky) a slew of pro-bowl caliber RBs and he enbtered systems where the run was emphasized and was producing - it is entirely material whether he had to build from scratch a running game (which is what he has ahead of him in Oakland) or whether he has had decent RB systems in place that he massaged to greatness (which is my contention).Liking Jordan "even more" in 2005 just b/c of Turner's presence is highly questionable strategy.

OK... Every single RB that has ever been featured in Turner's system has been Top 12, all but one of which was Top 10. This is regardless of the fact of who they were or how they got there. But no, the important thing is who they were and how they got there.

You have still avoided the primary points and questions:

So ask yourself this. Do you really see a RBBC in Oak this year? Do you really think it is that unlikely that Jordan end up having ability/talent on par with Davis, Allen, White, Bell, and Gary? Do you really think that the addition of Moss is not going to have a very positive impact on this O as a whole? Is this even really a question of talent vs. talent when comparing him to Brown for this year?

 

[fridayfrenzy]

Everyone keeps on saying that if Brown remains healthy he is a lock to be top 10 or even top 5. This could be true but I think the Titans offence could suck this year and have a direct influence on Brown maybe not finishing top 10 even if he is healthy.

The Titans were a top 10 offense last year with their #2 QB, and their young RB injured for a good portion of the season. What is leading you to believe that they will suck this year? So going into the season right now, they have their #1 QB and their #1 RB healthy and have lost their older #1 WR, and there is even a good possibility that they draft a young stud WR. Can you indicate to me why you think the offense will all of a sudden "suck" this year? I fail to see how the addition of a healthy McNair and Brown with the loss of Mason will mean they suck?

 

[jurb26]

The Titans were a top 10 offense last year with their #2 QB, and their young RB injured for a good portion of the season.  What is leading you to believe that they will suck this year?  So going into the season right now, they have their #1 QB and their #1 RB healthy and have lost their older #1 WR, and there is even a good possibility that they draft a young stud WR.  Can you indicate to me why you think the offense will all of a sudden "suck" this year?  I fail to see how the addition of a healthy McNair and Brown with the loss of Mason will mean they suck?

Personally I don't think they will suck and actually think they will be decent. I don't however think they will be anywhere close to the level that Oaks O will be on though and that is the majority of the problem. One got worse IMO and the other much better. McNair is no young buck and hasn't been able to stay on the field for a few years now and now Mason is gone. Mason's absence will inevitably create more emphasis on crowding the box IMO. Inversly, Moss creates better rushing matchups by demanding constant double coverage. The Tenn Oline is getting older just like McNair and IMo we are looking at a team on the verge of rebuilding more than a team on the verge of contending again.

 

[Kit Fisto]

Everyone keeps on saying that if Brown remains healthy he is a lock to be top 10 or even top 5.  This could be true but I think the Titans offence could suck this year and have a direct influence on Brown maybe not finishing top 10 even if he is healthy.

The Titans were a top 10 offense last year with their #2 QB, and their young RB injured for a good portion of the season. What is leading you to believe that they will suck this year? So going into the season right now, they have their #1 QB and their #1 RB healthy and have lost their older #1 WR, and there is even a good possibility that they draft a young stud WR. Can you indicate to me why you think the offense will all of a sudden "suck" this year? I fail to see how the addition of a healthy McNair and Brown with the loss of Mason will mean they suck?

"Can you indicate to me why you think the offense will all of a sudden "suck" this year?"Because it fits my argument! I have a huge Jordan man-crush! I can predict that Oakland will all of a sudden become an offensive powerhouse, even though as Yudkin mentioned earlier, it's pretty dramatic to even move up TEN spots!

of course.

still shaking my head over the "Jordan is now Top 10" arguements.

 

[jurb26]

still shaking my head over the "Jordan is now Top 10" arguements.

Well keep shaking your head all you want. As David's stats show, ANY RB who has had the feature role under him and his system has been just that. Unless you think he will not be a featured runner, I can't see why you would be shaking your head., the stats are right there. We are talking about a 14/15 success rate here. With the only 1 exception being a 12th place finish.

 

[Banger]

still shaking my head over the "Jordan is now Top 10" arguements.

Well keep shaking your head all you want. As David's stats show, ANY RB who has had the feature role under him and his system has been just that. Unless you think he will not be a featured runner, I can't see why you would be shaking your head., the stats are right there. We are talking about a 14/15 success rate here. With the only 1 exception being a 12th place finish.

Don't want to hijack the thread but since a number of people think he will bring the rushing offense from worst to top 10 and since he is such a rushing guru, does that mean that Moss's/Collins receiving related numbers are being overstated?