fatness
Footballguy
Inflation Is Fake: New Car Prices Aren't Dropping Despite Rising Supply
Inventory is piling up at dealers, but carmakers aren't putting cash on hoodsjalopnik.com
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Car Market going forward (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter pollardsvision
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TwinTurbo
Footballguy
I've been shopping for 4Runner TRD Pros and they are still very hard to find. But the SR5, SR5 Premium, TRD Off Road, and other trims are all available if you call around. Dealer was willing to take $1k off MSRP on the SR5 at the end of the month. The only vehicle where some Toyota dealers are still adding a dealer markup is the new Sequoia. I've seen anywhere from $5k - $10k.
Sullie
Footballguy
Wow. I find it extremely troubling that people are still paying MSRP+ with interest rates the highest I've seen in years.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
The entire market is troubling.
The next 18 months or so will be fascinating because, at the moment, most automakers seem hell bent on completely screwing consumers.
We need some automakers to break this trend, but it's unclear who it will be.
Even my beloved Toyota. Apparently, the US is the only market they are having "supply chain issues" in. They are able to make plenty of cars for the rest of the world.
They've tasted the forbidden fruit of how easy it is to rip off the average American consumer, so they may never go back. Good for them I guess, but right now we need the equivalent of the Toyota from the 60's and 70's that brought us a little Corolla.
Sullie
Footballguy
Well stated!
I may need a 5th car (wife, me, oldest (he owns it) and middle son) for my youngest as he’ll have his license hopefully soon. We can deal with 2 cars for a while and I’m not keen on handing down my car. My FIL passed but gave my oldest his car and we handed down our SUV to my middle son because it’s a solid car with high mileage but we wanted a new car. My SUV runs great and barely eclipsed 100k. Might be too nice for my youngest and my oldest already asked me for it! I think I’d rather get him a decent used higher mileage car. Problem is the prices are crazy. We haven’t gotten a new/used car since December 2020, so we got a good chunk off MSRP and I don’t think I could stomach paying sticker+.
It feels like we might be at tipping point where affordability is done and inventories rise. Maybe I don’t realize how much pandemic money is still out there but 7 year loans, higher interest rates and chunks more people paying $1k per month for nice cars, and not just G Wagons, seems crazy.
massraider
Footballguy
I think the factors that everyone is aware of have made their supply more in demand, so they can increase profit. I don't believe the automakers believe they can keep this up, but they are getting it while the getting is good. I don't hold it against them. Eventually, inventory will catch up, demand will slow down, used car inventory will increase, etc.
It is a crappy time to be making a move for a car, I am shopping for an Accord Hybrid, and I was looking used, but there are so few, that a new one might make sense for me.
I've about given up on Toyota. I'm in the Southeast distributor, and even if you can find a 4-runner not marked up, it is bloated with add-ons. I'm looking at a TRD Off-Road Premium, and the sticker is over 54k bc it has 6k of crap added on. So even at MSRP, it is about 5 thousand more than one I can build (and you have to buy one that is allocated and may take months to come in).
Sand
Footballguy
So it turns out that 20% of those who earn 1.5M+ are car dealers. And they spend heavily on politicians. It's no wonder the car market is so screwed up. These extortionist addons and overpriced service departments are never going away. Direct to consumer will never happen.
You can also thank dealers for the paucity of EVs on lots, as well. 45% of dealers refuse to have them. They generate much less revenue.
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culdeus
Footballguy
I buy it.
the moops
Footballguy
Yea, that seems like it can't be true. I can't find super accurate numbers, but there are like 150,000 households that are in the 2 million plus range. So there must be what, 300,000 households that make 1.5 million plus? There can't be 60,000 + car dealers out of that number
Terpman22
Footballguy
Is this true?? I'd like to see the breakdown overall of this vs something like..real estate (who are going through it right now for sure)
JAA
Footballguy
Can you unpack this for me?
Sand
Footballguy
As reported in the video, yes.
I glanced at the study and that doesn't appear to be what it says. I'm not sure the random guy in the video is interpreting it correctly.
Nugget
Footballguy
16M annual car sales is considered a healthy industry. We last hit it in 2019. I thought we’d get there in 2024, but I think 2023 is now more likely.
Historic Auto Sales
It's never a good idea to use YouTube for "information" but the random guy in the video didn't even say that, he said (one random study found) that 20% of all car dealerships in America have an owner making more than $1.5mil. Sand is the one misinterpreting it in this case.
Sand
Footballguy
And, though I screw things up on a regular basis, the one part I do remember correctly is that these guys have killed it over the last few years, so that percentage is going to be much higher in the next round of reports.
Fact is we have some big rent seeking groups - lawyers, public teachers unions, car dealers. At least in my state you can't buy a new car outside the dealership model. And they're extracting massive amounts of money from Joe Public thanks to that.
massraider
Footballguy
TRUTHSo it turns out that 20% of those who earn 1.5M+ are car dealers. And they spend heavily on politicians. It's no wonder the car market is so screwed up. These extortionist addons and overpriced service departments are never going away. Direct to consumer will never happen.
You can also thank dealers for the paucity of EVs on lots, as well. 45% of dealers refuse to have them. They generate much less revenue.
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They need the service department humming, that's the money.
snellman
Footballguy
Part of the dealers refusing to have them is the upfront cost by the Manufacturers in order to sell them. My dealership dropped Buick because GM wanted over 100K upfront just to be able to keep the Buick Franchise because GM wants to turn Buick all EV. That is not even counting the investment you have to make in "essential" tools that the Manufacturer forces the dealer to buy to service the vehicles. We have to buy a brand new Fork lift for the EV batteries for Chevy and GMC, Have to install charging stations in our dealership, spend 10s of thousands more on the "essential" tools, pay to have a minimum of 3 technicians trained in EV. We are in a part of the Midwest that EVs won't even be relevant for 3 years minimum. You can say all you want about the dealership being expensive, charging you too much to fix your car, etc. but there is also a lot of overhead to have the dealership service department.So it turns out that 20% of those who earn 1.5M+ are car dealers. And they spend heavily on politicians. It's no wonder the car market is so screwed up. These extortionist addons and overpriced service departments are never going away. Direct to consumer will never happen.
You can also thank dealers for the paucity of EVs on lots, as well. 45% of dealers refuse to have them. They generate much less revenue.
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dkp993
Footballguy
Thanks for the look under the hood.Part of the dealers refusing to have them is the upfront cost by the Manufacturers in order to sell them. My dealership dropped Buick because GM wanted over 100K upfront just to be able to keep the Buick Franchise because GM wants to turn Buick all EV. That is not even counting the investment you have to make in "essential" tools that the Manufacturer forces the dealer to buy to service the vehicles. We have to buy a brand new Fork lift for the EV batteries for Chevy and GMC, Have to install charging stations in our dealership, spend 10s of thousands more on the "essential" tools, pay to have a minimum of 3 technicians trained in EV. We are in a part of the Midwest that EVs won't even be relevant for 3 years minimum. You can say all you want about the dealership being expensive, charging you too much to fix your car, etc. but there is also a lot of overhead to have the dealership service department.So it turns out that 20% of those who earn 1.5M+ are car dealers. And they spend heavily on politicians. It's no wonder the car market is so screwed up. These extortionist addons and overpriced service departments are never going away. Direct to consumer will never happen.
You can also thank dealers for the paucity of EVs on lots, as well. 45% of dealers refuse to have them. They generate much less revenue.
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*pun intended
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Eventually we'll finally get that big recession we've been putting off for the last 5 years and people will get tight and have no choice but to stop playing their stupid games, and it will go back to the way it was.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
On the latest car dealership guy podcast, he's got the founder of Autonomy. The guy also founded Fare and True Car.
Anyway Autonomy provides EVs on a subscription basis. Sort of like a lease but it allows them to skirt all the leasing regulations. He also believes that eventually all cars will be subscriptions, and thinks the end of car ownership is in sight (and sounds like he genuinely believes that's a good thing).
The odd part is his goal in life as he stated many times is to help make driving a car more affordable.
Yet his approach to solving that problem, at least with Fare and Autonomy, is to try to keep "helping" people drive cars they can't afford.
I have absolutely no doubt he's going to make a whole bunch of money with car subscriptions. And there's absolutely no way it's going to be a good move for consumers financially.
Anyway Autonomy provides EVs on a subscription basis. Sort of like a lease but it allows them to skirt all the leasing regulations. He also believes that eventually all cars will be subscriptions, and thinks the end of car ownership is in sight (and sounds like he genuinely believes that's a good thing).
The odd part is his goal in life as he stated many times is to help make driving a car more affordable.
Yet his approach to solving that problem, at least with Fare and Autonomy, is to try to keep "helping" people drive cars they can't afford.
I have absolutely no doubt he's going to make a whole bunch of money with car subscriptions. And there's absolutely no way it's going to be a good move for consumers financially.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
And the leasing regulations that he was excited that they get to skip with a subscription are the regulations that require companies to disclose how bad they are screwing you with a lease.
This oughta go well.
This oughta go well.
Lol, yeah in the end you wonder how all of these helpful things are going to help consumers get to financially independent or in good shape. I mean, don’t sell your car yourself. The extra $2k you get isn’t worth the hassle. Sell your home with an instant offer $30k lower. Why pay $400 a month to own your car in 5 years and drive it free for another 5 when you can easy own it for $300 a month or get a better one for $400 a month and never have the hassle of owning it. Why pick up your own food or groceries when you can pay a 20% fee and a tip for colder food and never leave the couch?
Maybe I’m an old fart but it amazes me how much more people pay for normal life now for the “convenience” factor. I’ve sold a few cars myself for $8-12k (owned all outright for a few years) and made $600, $4k and $3k more than I was offered by the convenient places. My others I did trade in or donated but they were all in need of attention at that point and I didn’t want to sell a car that was breaking down or could break down soon.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Yeah there's nothing inherently wrong with it, and it certainly fits with what consumers seem to want these days (a low-ish payment that they pay for their entire lives).
Just funny to listen to him pitch it as something to help make cars more affordable.
Nugget
Footballguy
Sounds like he is adding another layer in as a middle man. I don't understand how he is going to pull $2K+ per deal and make it a better deal for the consumer. We already have management lease companies.
culdeus
Footballguy
I mean if his intention is to find short term leases and then daisy chain those, the management lease companies don't do a great job there with that. There's a little bit of wheat there.
And this might be a play to get leases going on cars with 60k+ miles on the odometer, which so far have not been very leasable. For EV with low maintenance costs this might make sense.
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Hmmm. I‘ve been stalling replacing my vehicle, hoping autonomous drivers make ownership obsolete. I guess subscriptions can serve as a bridge.
Why are you convinced it will be a bad financial decision?
ETA I‘ve never leased or financed a vehicle.
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pollardsvision
Footballguy
The companies will certainly pass on the costs of the depreciation, interest, and maintenance on to the customers.
Outside of very weird stuff (like cars appreciating for the first time in history), leasing/subscribing is generally a pretty expensive convenience.
For a wealthy person that could just pay cash for the car otherwise, but can afford to burn the money for convenience, fine. Great for the them.
But for the vast majority of people, it's a way to drive a car they can't afford, and plan on a lifetime of payments.
Really though, it's just that every time we come up with a slick new way for someone making $60,000 a year with no savings to drive an $80,000 car, it keeps working out poorly for the consumers for some odd reason.
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Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Yeah, you’re probably right. I guess I’ll keep waiting for the self-drivers…
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
I just bought new myself. I was looking for hybrids in the compact SUV segment, a couple different manufacturers, but impossible to find one unless you want either the tip-top-of-the-line model or are willing to wait at least 3 months. I'd hoped to hold out and have my next vehicle be full electric a few years down the line, but my car had turned into a bit of a money pit and I needed something sooner.
Looked at used options too but they were nearly the same cost as new. Obviously a slight break but I'll pay an extra few thousand for a new one, all things considered.
Dezbelief
Footballguy
Jeep recalls more than 354,000 Grand Cherokees because rear coil springs can detach while driving
New Jeep Grand Cherokees may have had their rear coil springs installed incorrectly.
AUTOMOTIVE
Jeep recalls more than 354,000 Grand Cherokees because rear coil springs can detach while driving
ABCNews logo
Tuesday, June 13, 2023 4:47PM
Jeep recalls more than 354,000 vehicles
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New Jeep Grand Cherokees may have had their rear coil springs installed incorrectly.
Stellantis, the company that owns Jeep, is recalling more than 354,000 vehicles worldwide because the rear coil springs can fall off while they're being driven.
The recall covers certain 2022 and 2023 Grand Cherokee and 2021 to 2023 Grand Cherokee L SUVs.
The company says in documents posted Tuesday by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration that the springs may have been installed incorrectly in production. They can detach from the vehicle while it's moving, increasing the risk of a crash and possibly creating a hazard for other drivers.
Stellantis says in the documents that it's aware of 17 warranty claims, two customer assistance reports and two field reports that may be caused by the problem. But as of May 25 it had no reports of crashes or injuries. Most of the recalled vehicles are in North America.
SUVs with air suspensions are not affected. Dealers will inspect the springs and replace the assemblies if necessary. Owners are to be notified by letter starting July 28.
Figured this might be a good place for this, but I’ve narrowed down my car search for my youngest to potentially a Mazda CX-5. It looks like Apple CarPlay was added in the 2019 model and honestly, that’s a big selling point. My middle son and wife have that and it’s great for navigating and hands free usage. I’m also leaning towards the safety features of the gran touring. With 4-5 years and say 50-60k miles, I’ve seen low $20k at dealers and haven’t seen private parties. Thinking he could drive it at least 8 years to get through HS, college and a couple working years. I was looking $15-20k but might be worth a few bucks to have nice and safer features.
I don’t know much about Mazdas so wondering if there’s anything to watch out for or if anyone has other recommendations for similar cars. For instance, if I look at RAV-4s, for $21k, it’s 3 years older with 30k more miles and no Apple Car Play and almost none of the safety or other features.
I don’t know much about Mazdas so wondering if there’s anything to watch out for or if anyone has other recommendations for similar cars. For instance, if I look at RAV-4s, for $21k, it’s 3 years older with 30k more miles and no Apple Car Play and almost none of the safety or other features.
MTskibum
Footballguy
In that price range i would be looking hard at the Subaru Impreza. You can get one for under 23k if you were patient and were willing to negotiate with every dealership, if you travel to a big metro area you could probably do under 22k out the door.
The subaru includes its advance safety features on the base model, ie Subaru Eyesight. this is autobraking, lane departure, cross lane traffic monitoring, etc.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
A system with Apple Car Play is simple to add. Bought a pioneer head unit from Best Buy for a 2010 Camry we bought last year...free installation. Wired car play is pretty cheap if you don't mind plugging in (which longer trips you probably would anyway to charge the phone).
Unless you wanted the whole integrated system that may show more diagnostic stuff for the car.
Some cars are easier to add. If the car, like many newer ones, has it really integrated you can’t. Our 2012 Highlander had a navigation system so when we went around to look there were no CarPlay heads we could install. I’m sure some custom shop could have done it but we were looking for a cheap swap not an expensive install. We got my son a reasonable unit that sits on the dash with wireless car play and he loves it, but my wife’s Wrangler (replaced the Highlander) has CarPlay integrated. It’s so much nicer and the sound quality is better.
matttyl
Footballguy
My wife had a Mazda 3 and loved it….for a while. One day, while drive home, with 103k miles on the odometer, she calls me as the clutch had gone out (yeah, my girl can drive a stick!) and she needed to get home for a zoom meeting. I come by with my car, which she takes, and I wait on the tow truck….in 100 degree heat on the side of the road. 15 minutes in the AC compressor dies.
We fixed both (at a shop I know very well) and immediately sold the car. Having two big things go out right at 100k miles…when my Toyota is coming up on 200k and the only thing it’s ever needed is a water pump? I’d look hard at a RAV4, if a small suv would fit the bill.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
When my wife was getting a new car a few years ago, we looked at Mazda. It was less impressive than both the Toyota and Honda. She ended up with a Toyota with 4K miles on it.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
First brand new car my wife and I ever bought was a Toyota Corolla. 15 yrs ago?
Warranty was 50,000 miles. We had the oil changed religiously at the dealer because it was free with our purchase.
At 52,000 the engine started with a hard knock. Took it to dealer, they contacted Toyota. Toyota told us “warranty expired at 50,000, sorry”
No more Toyotas for us
Warranty was 50,000 miles. We had the oil changed religiously at the dealer because it was free with our purchase.
At 52,000 the engine started with a hard knock. Took it to dealer, they contacted Toyota. Toyota told us “warranty expired at 50,000, sorry”
No more Toyotas for us
Appreciate the anecdote. I also still have our 2012 highlander and it had a couple repairs like that, one was power steering and struts or something like that. My son’s CR-V (was his grandfather’s who was religious on maintenance) had multiple AC issues a little over 100k. My Lexus had a water pump go bad well before 100k. All three were and still are great cars overall but every car including the best ones will typically have an issue or two. AC compressor being one of them. Maybe your wife is like my son, AC on probably too much and too cold!
I actually like hearing that there were no issues before 100k. That’s a good sign. I’d love a Rav-4 but they are ridiculous for what you get. I could get a CX-5 with the same mileage/options and have money left over for a new transmission and engine rebuild. I can’t justify a $30k+ car just to get some safety options and a decent car. I also don’t want to get a car that will have bad issues.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Well, that's unfortunate obviously. But given their track record of reliability, that seems like an unreasonable response.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
I don't know. Would piss me off enough to never give them another dollar.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Makes sense with a lot of the integrated stuff. Definitely was easy for an older car. I would have dine it but read how many problems some had getting the steering wheel controls to work so I opted for someone else to do it.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Similar issue with a Nissan. Had taken the truck several time to the dealership for a weird noise which they never could duplicate. At 52k they find out the axle or ball joint is loose (I forget what) and about to fall off. Nissan told me sorry, but warranty is up. Never again I told them......14 years later I've got 360k on the dang truck now. Paint looks like **** like every grey Nissan. Every plastic fastener has failed. Passenger door held on by duct tape, grill and head light casings by zip ties, rear emblem by loctite, shift lever cable by a cotter pin kluge. I did have to replace a tranny and the 3 radiators my bro-in-law managed to put an arrow through by mistake. I did mount one of the radiators and gave it to him for Xmas.
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