Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Cleveland Browns (14 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I don't think there is much of a chance we would be taking a WR at 17, but yeah, that is obvious to me OBJ is more attractive than any of the rookie WRs even with his salary.
Shoot go sign mosely, trade for Dee Ford, trade for OBJ, still have 30+ million in cap space and let's make a nice 3 year run until we have to sign Baker to a huge deal.
Time is now. Think Seattle when Wilson was cheap for 4 years
Peak
Footballguy
I'm not sure I agree with the bolded. I believe Perriman is gone, and the there is a drop in talent after Landry. Higgins is ok, but I think it's mainly due to his time with Baker in TC. Calloway needs more time to learn. It wouldn't hurt to get a vet WR this offseason vs another Rookie to learn alongside Calloway.
Completely agree on the defense needing help. LB is a mess, and there is a definite need on the interior DL. I'd like to see a solid run-stuffing DT in the middle of that line. Trade for a Malik Jackson or sign a Suh, while drafting a quick/strong rookie to help man the middle for years to come. Pick up a few 2nd tier LBs who aren't flashy names, but can get the job done. One of the guys from Baltimore would be fine. I don't see Mosley, but maybe Zadarius?
To me, spend the FA $$ on the Defense and see where the chips fall.
If Dorsey decides to also trade for Beckham, so be it. I don't see it hurting the team, only helping it. Zeitler will be the biggest player moved in that deal, based on the rumors to date. He's a great OG, and had a tremendous year last year. But if we can use him to nab another piece of the puzzle, so do it. Back fill him with another 2nd tier OG. Dorsey has faith in the new OL Coach, and he has a great track record of producing players. If Corbett's ready to play OG, and many accounts over the off season says he is, then let him take the spot. They can always draft a rookie OG in the 3rd or later rounds to develop.
Like many fans, I had a taste of what this team can produce, and I want to see more. Bring in some explosive players and release the dawgs!
ghostguy123
Footballguy
MAC_32
Footballguy
Great QB's elevate the play of those around him. That's what we saw with Perriman and Robinson, who had been left for dead. We were one of the league's best offenses once the cancer was removed. With a rookie QB and rookie coach being tasked with figuring it out on the fly midseason. We're good there.
But I agree with the latter point - I just don't agree about pooling resources together to make that WR Beckham. Not on March 7th anyway. Spend the next week plus focused on the defense then circle back around to this subject if it's still viable once the dust has settled.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Don't trade for Jackson - the Jags threw a hail mary trade feeler out there in front of him being cut to make room for Foles. Tamper with him next week and have something ready assuming he gets whacked. I'm indifferent on Suh, but would prefer younger. I think the Ravens LB's depend on what they want - if either of them are looking to be role players then they're great fits. I have doubts about whether that's really where they are mentally right now. Ghost is right about Zeitler - moving him doesn't make any sense unless some silly team out there is gonna back up a truck in compensation.
Peak
Footballguy
Some silly team already has....the Browns. They made him a top dollar FA offer a couple of years ago. He hit an all time high, why not cash in on it now? I used to be in the camp of hoarding all the best players - don't let them leave. But some we held too long and lost any value we had in trading out. Zeitler is a good/great player. But his value is an all time high. Why not see what you can get for him? Bitonio and Tretter will make sure the middle of the line is secure. Corbett sounds like the type of guy who can hold down the fort at RG. If anything, it may expose how bad Hubbard has been at RT.
Peak
Footballguy
Agree on that point. I don't see Perriman coming back, and Strong is more of the opposite of Perriman. He's not fast, but he's a big body that can catch. I'd like to see OBJ with a great QB, imagine how much Baker could elevate OBJ, and vice versa.
The other thing we lack is that presence opposite of Landry. He is getting double teamed constantly. Imagine how the field would open up with a solid threat opposite Landry. Njoku wasn't that threat. Calloway wasn't that threat. Higgins tried to step up, but not always consistent. Perriman helped, but again I see him taking the Pryor way out of CLE by chasing the $$. I don't think a rookie WR will help right away. I'd like to see what they could do with a veteran WR that is physical and fast.
I also don't disagree with you on the timing aspect. It's just fun to discuss now because of what Dorsey did in the days leading up to FA last year. The noise and rumblings are fun to decipher. While I don't think we'll trade for OBJ, CLE has to be a prime spot with Landry and Chris Henry here - both people OBJ trusts, listens to, and respect. A QB like Baker is an obvious upgrade for OBJ, so I'd think the community around him would help keep the DIVA in him at bay. This could be the best environment for OBJ at this time.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
There is more to it than just trading him. From what I can gather we wont even gain much cap space in trading him.
All factors considered it would be silly to trade him.
As for his money, he isnt even "overpaid"
Peak
Footballguy
I don't think the trade mentioned is to save cap space. CLE already has 80+MM in cap space. That isn't he issue. I view this as trading one top valued athlete for another. Zeitler had an all-pro year last year. The question is, can he maintain it? Odds are he'll approach a down year soon. If you trade while his value is high, you'll get a bigger return. That's why the rumors are swirling. NYG needs Oline help. CLE is willing to trade their top OG for NYGs top WR. Value to get value.
Dorsey is willing to let Zeitler go in this scenario by having the trust in Campden that Corbett can step in and be serviceable. Dorsey has faith that Campden can make a solid OL without Zeitler. If Dorsey has that faith in the OL Coach and Corbett, why not take the risk? This is the time to do it, while Baker's contract is low $$ compared to where he'll be in 3-4 years.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
As I said, if the return is really good then fine. If he is tossed into the deal as some 3rd or 4th round value then no, that would be dumb.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Because he's a good starter. And as you mentioned we have strong backup plans in the event performance declines and/or there are injuries. The interior of the line is set. So don't mess with that.
Last edited by a moderator:
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I have a hard time believing zeitler is a complete deal breaker in a trade for some other team. Of all the browns rumors I heard trading zeitler is the only one that jumps out as not making any sense
MAC_32
Footballguy
And the rumors don't mean anything anyway. Sure, fans want stuff to talk about. Media needs ears and eyes. So this is what we get. But whatever Dorsey has cooking up isn't what anyone is talking about.
Like you said, the Beckham talk at least has some dots to connect. It means absolutely nothing, but it's..."fun." If you're into that sorta thing. Zeitler though? Makes no sense.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Apparently trading zeitler would leave 10 million in dead money. He was rated as the top pass blocking guard.
Dorsey isnt that dumb to deal this guy for anything less than a 1st is he?
Dorsey isnt that dumb to deal this guy for anything less than a 1st is he?
Peak
Footballguy
So you think Zietler is the only guy out there that can play that position well enough to protect Baker? Cmon man, he's one guy who played above his average last year. Cash in on the value and next man up. These kind of opportunities don't happen every day. Trading away a very good player to get an even better player shouldn't take pause.MAC_32 said:
There aren't many on the team that I would say are "untradeable". Baker, Garrett, Landry....I'm having trouble with any other names. And Landry is on the fringe. If the right deal comes along, I might flip him.
I trust the FO to figure out whats best for the team and how to build it. If Dorsey et al believe trading Zeitler, Ogbah and a few picks is worth OBJ, then who am I to argue?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
It obviously goes without saying, but it depends on the deal. I am good dealing any player if the deal makes sense.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Peak
Footballguy
You saying I'm slow on the uptake? (I had to google the phrase because what I thought it meant isn't what it meant...I didn't think it meant what I thought it meant and I confirmed that what I thought it meant isn't what it meant. Know what I mean?)
Just messing around. All this talk of OBJ the past couple of days wouldn't have happened if the players didn't start tweeting around each other. Now we have the twitterverse and all the captain keyboarders out here with their "sources" talking about what did happen, what didn't happen, what did they mean, and what we yet don't know. I like how one "informer" states its a done deal, but another "informer" says that the NYG laughed at the trade and never considered it feasible. Even recently another said "NYG wants 2 Firsts for OBJ!!" It's crazy town right now!
I like the concept and I know Dorsey is aggressive. While I don't think OBJ is the real target, I do think he has a couple of good trades that will surprise us. I'm hoping we hear about those tomorrow - just like how he dropped Landry, Tyrod, and Randall on us last year the Friday before the FA "legal tampering" window started.
MAC_32
Footballguy
All good - read everything, believe nothing has been my approach for years. I think it's served me well. Sometimes I have to force myself to stay open minded though. Which I think I'm doing with OBJ. But Zeitler was apparently my line. It didn't make any sense. And still doesn't. His name being thrown out there strikes me as literally just that - someone tossing a name at the board and seeing if it sticks. There's no substance there. it makes no sense for either side given either team's current state and roster construction.
You saying I'm slow on the uptake? (I had to google the phrase because what I thought it meant isn't what it meant...I didn't think it meant what I thought it meant and I confirmed that what I thought it meant isn't what it meant. Know what I mean?)
Just messing around. All this talk of OBJ the past couple of days wouldn't have happened if the players didn't start tweeting around each other. Now we have the twitterverse and all the captain keyboarders out here with their "sources" talking about what did happen, what didn't happen, what did they mean, and what we yet don't know. I like how one "informer" states its a done deal, but another "informer" says that the NYG laughed at the trade and never considered it feasible. Even recently another said "NYG wants 2 Firsts for OBJ!!" It's crazy town right now!
I like the concept and I know Dorsey is aggressive. While I don't think OBJ is the real target, I do think he has a couple of good trades that will surprise us. I'm hoping we hear about those tomorrow - just like how he dropped Landry, Tyrod, and Randall on us last year the Friday before the FA "legal tampering" window started.
Peak
Footballguy
Fair enough. Everyone has a line.
Aside from the fun OBJ stuff...I've read Dorsey has been in talks with both Jax and KC as well. Other draft speculations is to get either Ramsey or Jackson from Jax (player and late round pick?) and/or Ford for a pick (pick and player). I know folks aren't big on Jackson, but he could fit in the scheme, and Ford opposite Garrett would be crazy! Now take those additions and bring in Suh to add that nasty streak to the line, and something is cooking! I could see a DL of Ford, Ogun, Suh, Garrett making some noise, with Jackson and a Rookie DT to rotate with Larry and Suh. What fun that would be!
beer 30
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
so what does this do to our available cap space? I had read moving Zeitler didnt do much, and now we add Vernon who makes a lot?
MAC_32
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
daveR
Footballguy
Vernon base salary is 15.25M in 2019 and in 2020. So $30.5M for the two years left on his contract.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I guess the dead money part of it is irrelevant. View it as sunk cost.
Still seems odd when trading a guy with a 12 million dollar salary doesnt provide much cap relief, regardless of how much cap space we have. I guess they wanted Vernon pretty bad.
Still seems odd when trading a guy with a 12 million dollar salary doesnt provide much cap relief, regardless of how much cap space we have. I guess they wanted Vernon pretty bad.
beer 30
Footballguy
They wanted a pass rusher opposite Garrett, is that lost on you? The defense needs the help, not the offense. A marquise WR is a nice-to-have (and Dorsey isn't done yet). The defense is what needs the help to take this team to the next level. Mayfield has elevated the offense around him, the defense needs the love.
A caller on the radio just brought up a cool point about Olivier's contract, it ends the year Garrett is eligible for FA so it won't factor into cutting Myles his big check and Baker his check the following year. It's essentially a net neutral cap move for a team that is sitting a YUUUUGE pile of
daveR
Footballguy
Right. $30M over two years vs $30M over three. Same total, but off the books in 2021. (Plus adding a pass rusher for an expendable player.)They wanted a pass rusher opposite Garrett, is that lost on you? The defense needs the help, not the offense. A marquise WR is a nice-to-have (and Dorsey isn't done yet). The defense is what needs the help to take this team to the next level. Mayfield has elevated the offense around him, the defense needs the love.
A caller on the radio just brought up a cool point about Olivier's contract, it ends the year Garrett is eligible for FA so it won't factor into cutting Myles his big check and Baker his check the following year. It's essentially a net neutral cap move for a team that is sitting a YUUUUGE pile of
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Twitter facts (so maybe not facts):
Vernon - Dead Cap - $8m
2019 - $15.5m
2020 - $15.5m
Zeitler - Dead Cap - $7.2m
2019 - $10m
2020 - $10m
2021 - $12m
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Zeitler is one of the better guards so it is a bit of a step-down to Austin. We weren't getting a return on Corbett and the obviously think he is ready to start.
We cut Collins and were seeking to improve our pass rush.
Over his six year career Jamie Collins has 17.5 sacks, while over the same six years of his seven year career Olivier Vernon has 48 sacks.
Most recently over the past three years:
- Jamie Collins has 6 sacks
- Olivier Vernon has 25.5 sacks.
Bumping up a 5th round pick to a 4th.
Dorsey.
This was a solid deal for both teams. Gun to my head, I'd say the Browns won, simply because they got a higher pick, and edge defenders are more important than guards. That said, both teams got good players at need positions. Cleveland probably isn't taking a pass rusher in round 1 now and that was their #1 need before this trade in my opinion.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Austin Corbett under his rookie contract takes over for Zeitler.
Olivier Vernon and his contract takes over for Jamie Collins.
You only noted half of the savings Zeitler but should also figure in the savings of cutting Collins.
Ex-Patriot Collins cut by the Browns
$10.3 - $9.25 = $1.05 million in overall trade costs this year.
Peak
Footballguy
Greetham: #Browns tendered contracts to restricted free agent WR Rashard Higgins and exclusive rights free agents DL Trevon Coley & DB Jermaine Whitehead
Pelissero: The #Browns placed the original-round tender ($2.025M) on WR Rashard Higgins, source said. So it'd take a 5th-round pick to sign him away. Caught 39 passes for 572 yards and 4 TDs in 2018 despite missing time with a knee injury. One of Baker Mayfield's good buddies, too.
Shrewd strategy on the original round tender for Higgins. Dorsey betting that no one will want to give up the 5th rounder for Higgins, while still have flexibility to match an offer if made. Hoping negotiations on a new deal get done before hand, but good way to keep it in line.
Pelissero: The #Browns placed the original-round tender ($2.025M) on WR Rashard Higgins, source said. So it'd take a 5th-round pick to sign him away. Caught 39 passes for 572 yards and 4 TDs in 2018 despite missing time with a knee injury. One of Baker Mayfield's good buddies, too.
Shrewd strategy on the original round tender for Higgins. Dorsey betting that no one will want to give up the 5th rounder for Higgins, while still have flexibility to match an offer if made. Hoping negotiations on a new deal get done before hand, but good way to keep it in line.
beer 30
Footballguy
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
Vernon has missed 9 games the last two seasons
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Vernon signed a five year $85 million contract and has two years remaining. The guaranteed salaries of $32 million have already been paid as have $12 million of the $20 signing bonus that is prorated at $4 million per year over the life of the contract. The only thing we'd be on the hook for over the final two years is the pro-rated signing bonus. He has a high base salary but none of it is guaranteed.beer 30 said:...The defense is what needs the help to take this team to the next level. Mayfield has elevated the offense around him, the defense needs the love.
... Olivier's contract, it ends the year Garrett is eligible for FA so it won't factor into cutting Myles his big check and Baker his check the following year. It's essentially a net neutral cap move for a team that is sitting a YUUUUGE pile of
As noted he's missed games over the past two years but Dorsey may believe their is upside with his health since it has been reported that he was dealing with an ankle injury which 'seemed' to get better by the end of the year right about when he started ringing up sacks. He also faced a lot of top-notch OTs in his division.
https://www.newsday.com/sports/football/giants/olivier-vernon-trade-rumors-1.27925629
Michael LombardiVerified account @mlombardiNFL
I think Vernon played hurt all last year, and never was right. I like this trade for the Browns--another rusher to help Garrett.
8:47 AM - 8 Mar 2019
----------------------------------
Mike RennerVerified account @PFF_Mike
Underrated aspect of Olivier Vernon trade: Vernon had the hardest job of any edge in the NFL. Faced the LTs in the NFC East (Tyron Smith, Jason Peters, Trent Williams) 6 times a year. That’s light years harder than the RTs in the AFC North 6 times
2:28 PM - 8 Mar 2019
