Cleveland Browns (3 Viewers)

[beer 30]

So, the thread the troll started was about players being "coached up".  You replied that they had regressed.  I asked you which ones had regressed, giving you room to support your assertion, and you say, "1-31".  Could it be that your hatred is driving this and not discernible data, at least when it comes to the specific topic of individual players?

Again, I don't hate. Who is being coached up based on the numbers I presented? At best the team was as bad as it was last year. I'm talking about the last two years Dave. Do I think this team has significant upside? Absolutely. Do I think that upside is being stifled by the current coaching staff? Absolutely.

If this team is being coached up you would expect a discernible change in their rankings, no? I don't see it, maybe you do. I took a stab at it because I don't have the time right now to dive into individual stats for every position nor do I really want to. The team is 1-31, I'm not going to find a diamond in the rough on the roster. If you can feel free. All I'm trying to illustrate is the "coaching up" you think is happening is not translating to tangible measurements I am looking at.

 

[Bobcat10]

So, the thread the troll started was about players being "coached up".  You replied that they had regressed.  I asked you which ones had regressed, giving you room to support your assertion, and you say, "1-31".  Could it be that your hatred is driving this and not discernible data, at least when it comes to the specific topic of individual players?

Who has Hue 'n Staff developed/coached up in two years?  Ya know, the roster was stripped down and youth-inized...exactly the type of roster that you should see growth out of over 600+ days.  You saw last night the culmination of what great coaching can do.  Maybe our coaches will get their with time, but I see virtually nothing in their body of work that can be used to defend them so strongly with.

 

[Peak]

I know you hate Hue, but of the 22 starters, who (that wasn't injured) regressed over the last two years?

Not a fan of Hue either, but I'll play! 

I only compared 2016-2017 stats for three players that were here for 2016 and 2017.  To keep this from being a tl:dr type of post, I'll just put up the highlights (lowlights?) by player

Cody Kessler....2016 QB Draft Pick that Hue "liked" and said "trust me".  While starting 8 games in 2016, he started 0 in 2017.  When he did play, his Completion% fell -17.8% in 2017.  His TD% fell -3.1% in 2017.  His Yards/Attempt fell -1.6%, and his Avg Yards/Attempt fell -3.7%.  His QB Rating fell -45.7% in 2017, and his QBR fell -45% in 2017.  Overall, Kessler having 2 years in Hue's system has regressed in 2017, so much so that even with Kizer was failing Hue skipped Kessler to put in Hogan, who also didn't play well.

The Running Game also regressed in 2017.  Was this game-planning or the play-caller?

Issiah Crowell saw his Total yards fall while his attempts increased.  His TD production fell in 2017 (-5), along with his Yards/Game (-6).  His passing targets also regressed (-11 targets).  His Total Yards from Scrimmage for the season also fell (-236).

Corey Coleman was injured, but played roughly the same amount of games in 2016 as 2017.  His Receiving Yards fell (-108) in 2017, as did his Yards/Game (-7.5) and Total Yards from Scrimmage (-118).  His production will be tied to the QB play, but I submit to you Kessler's regression, as well as the poor coaching given to Kizer and how his production/growth was stymied by the HC.

Just three players from the Offense that are under Hue's purview over the last two years.  Again, performance may be due to scheme, injuries, attitude, game plans, etc.  The only person that really knows the true nature is the one guy in question, the HC.  

With all that said, watching this team over the last two years you can see a regression in Team Morale - the style of their play, the intensity of their play was down in 2017.  This is more or less due to the fact they didn't win, or were in games until the end and couldn't lock it down.  Some of these are directly related to a HC (mis-use of TOs, poor challenges, play-calling, etc).  Team Attitude, Preparation, Morale, and Confidence falls on the HC in my opinion.  Those who suffered watching every game this year could see these areas regress as the season went on.

 

[daveR]

Rather than belabor the point, I'm gonna let this go. 

 

[Bobcat10]

Rather than belabor the point, I'm gonna let this go. 

I can live with you saying you want to keep the coaches together because you still believe in them and want to give them another year, but acting like they've accomplished something by arguing about regression is a different story.  I'm also pretty sure 1-15 to 0-16 is a regression of record, and in this day and age of the NFL, 1-31 should be almost impossible to do.  Even Chris Palmer had 5 wins over 2 years with much less talented expansion squad and I'm fully considering the tear down that took place here two years ago.

 

[travdogg]

This FO is ridiculously talented. At least this team will get some players from the draft. I'm hoping they can change some minds of FAs as well.

The last one was very talented. They got plenty of very good players in the last 2 drafts, and some extremely high profile FA's. It'd be shocking if the new FO was better at either of those things.

 

[Peak]

The last one was very talented. They got plenty of very good players in the last 2 drafts, and some extremely high profile FA's. It'd be shocking if the new FO was better at either of those things.

I don't necessarily disagree.  I would've liked Sashi to stick around, but he lost that battle vs Hue.  The wrong guy was fired, IMO.

With Hue being retained, Haslam needs this new FO to help lure the right people in, as from an outside perspective it's a trainwreck.  Dorsey, Hightower, Wolf, and now Scotty will help bring some of that "football knowledge" that folks say didn't exist last year.  Even though we lost Sashi, I think this new FO is the best anyone could've asked for in a replacement.  I would've liked to have seen Sashi and his cap skills work with this new FO, but that will never happen.

 

[Soulfly3]

Ya boi Scot McCloughan has Baker Mayfield as his top ranked QB, and likened him to Brett Favre. 

Ya, let's pass cuz he's only a nuthair above 6ft. 

 

[beer 30]

Ya boi Scot McCloughan has Baker Mayfield as his top ranked QB, and likened him to Brett Favre. 

Ya, let's pass cuz he's only a nuthair above 6ft. 

Man I love your passion in your beliefs. Don’t always agree with you but no one ever has to wonder what side of the fence you’re on ??

 

[Soulfly3]

Man I love your passion in your beliefs. Don’t always agree with you but no one ever has to wonder what side of the fence you’re on ??

Make a call and live w the consequences. I watch, I observe, I take a stand. 

I absolutely love Baker. 

 

[daveR]

I can live with you saying you want to keep the coaches together because you still believe in them and want to give them another year, but acting like they've accomplished something by arguing about regression is a different story.  I'm also pretty sure 1-15 to 0-16 is a regression of record, and in this day and age of the NFL, 1-31 should be almost impossible to do.  Even Chris Palmer had 5 wins over 2 years with much less talented expansion squad and I'm fully considering the tear down that took place here two years ago.

Wow.  I never said anything about accomplishing anything.  What I said is that beer dude's comment about players regressing is based on his dislike for Hue and not anything factual.  This begets the question of how a coach can make someone a lesser player.  Do you really think Crow is now a bad player?  I can see where someone's practice habits could change if the coach is undemanding, but that isn't Hue's style.  He's always about "hard work".  And, I seem to recall lots of times where the players have come to his support, saying everyone plays hard for him.  So, if you think it's possible for rookie Kessler and/or rookie Kizer to take you anywhere, no matter who the coach was, we'll have to disagree.  To that, I would personally add that I've seen the team cycle through coaches one after the other, and start over with new systems year after year.  I want to give continuity a try for once.

 

[DallasDMac]

Make a call and live w the consequences. I watch, I observe, I take a stand. 

I absolutely love Baker. 

The fact Scot McCloughan agrees with you has me thinking perhaps you were right. I actually have quite a bit of faith in that guy. Hope they listen to him.

 

[Soulfly3]

I haven't seen a "winner" like Baker in college since Andrew Luck. 

The dude has no quit. Browns need a non-quitter

 

[beer 30]

Wow.  I never said anything about accomplishing anything.  What I said is that beer dude's comment about players regressing is based on his dislike for Hue and not anything factual.  This begets the question of how a coach can make someone a lesser player.  Do you really think Crow is now a bad player?  I can see where someone's practice habits could change if the coach is undemanding, but that isn't Hue's style.  He's always about "hard work".  And, I seem to recall lots of times where the players have come to his support, saying everyone plays hard for him.  So, if you think it's possible for rookie Kessler and/or rookie Kizer to take you anywhere, no matter who the coach was, we'll have to disagree.  To that, I would personally add that I've seen the team cycle through coaches one after the other, and start over with new systems year after year.  I want to give continuity a try for once.

If you’re coming from the angle that players haven’t regressed under Hue because they were terrible to begin with, I could get on board with that. It’s hard to deny we have had guys on the roster the past 2 seasons who otherwise probably wouldn’t be playing in the league.

Not saying that’s true of this guy but let’s look at Crow since you brought him up and he has progressed over the last 2 seasons. In 2016 he had a career year with 198 rushes, 952 yds from scrimmage, 7 td’s, 40 receptions for another 319 yds. A solid year to be sure. In 2017 he had more rushes with 206 but his yardage dropped to 853 yds, 2 td’s, 28 receptions for an additional 182 yards. You’ve watched all the games like the rest of us and know that he was a non-factor in every game played because Hue, even though he pounded the table and assured everyone the Browns were going to run the ball, went away from the run as early as the 2nd quarter in some games and started chucking it downfield. Now that might not be regression by the player because of the coach because I think Crow is still a serviceable back but he sure as heck didn’t improve over his 2016 season. That’s all I’m saying, the coaching staff is not working with what they have that is good to make them better. Instead of building on a solid 2016 AFTER investing a ton of cash in your OL they run some offense that the 21 year old rookie struggles with and makes everyone look like idiots.

The NFL is not that hard. You block, you tackle, you run and throw high percentage passes that allow you to take some shots downfield. You do those 4 things well and you will be successful. If you don’t, you go 1-31 and have your fan base arguing over stupid #### like is the team getting better or worse over that time period ?

 

[daveR]

Regarding "giving up on the running game"...  I think people need to acknowledge that game situations determine what happens.  Going in, you can have every intention of running the ball all game long, but if your defense is playing poorly, or if your opponent is stacking the box, you're gonna have to throw the ball.  (Remember the pre-season game when Minnesota(?) ran the ball the entire first half?)  It sucks when your QB is a rookie who isn't yet up to NFL standards, but the opponent isn't going to back down for you.  The game is going to be the game no matter who you have under center. That is, every NFL team knows you have to mix it up and adjust to the defense, normally on the fly, on every play. 

 

[Bracie Smathers]

I haven't seen a "winner" like Baker in college since Andrew Luck. 

The dude has no quit. Browns need a non-quitter

I'm not locked into any QB at this point but I would like to see this happen:

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Jack McCurry‏ @JMcCurryCLE 13h13 hours ago

Just in case everyone didn’t hear it today, @HammerNation19 has vowed to eat horse dung if the #Browns draft Baker Mayfield in April.

 

[DocHolliday]

Just saw and article that thinks the Browns could trade for Nick Foles.  There is some risk for sure but Foles threw the ball extremely well for the past month or so.  Having great weapons at RB, TE, and WR certainly helped Foles but the Browns should be able to match that talent. 

 

[Soulfly3]

I'm not locked into any QB at this point but I would like to see this happen:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jack McCurry‏ @JMcCurryCLE 13h13 hours ago

Just in case everyone didn’t hear it today, @HammerNation19 has vowed to eat horse dung if the #Browns draft Baker Mayfield in April.

Man will back out faster than lightening

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Man will back out faster than lightening

https://twitter.com/OldTakesExposed/status/960680118174797830

 

[ghostguy123]

Regarding "giving up on the running game"...  I think people need to acknowledge that game situations determine what happens.  Going in, you can have every intention of running the ball all game long, but if your defense is playing poorly, or if your opponent is stacking the box, you're gonna have to throw the ball.  (Remember the pre-season game when Minnesota(?) ran the ball the entire first half?)  It sucks when your QB is a rookie who isn't yet up to NFL standards, but the opponent isn't going to back down for you.  The game is going to be the game no matter who you have under center. That is, every NFL team knows you have to mix it up and adjust to the defense, normally on the fly, on every play. 

And people need to acknowledge that Hue was abysmal at recognizing when the appropriate time to abandon the run actually occured.

Dude was a total idiot calling plays.

 

[Peak]

Regarding "giving up on the running game"...  I think people need to acknowledge that game situations determine what happens.  Going in, you can have every intention of running the ball all game long, but if your defense is playing poorly, or if your opponent is stacking the box, you're gonna have to throw the ball.  (Remember the pre-season game when Minnesota(?) ran the ball the entire first half?)  It sucks when your QB is a rookie who isn't yet up to NFL standards, but the opponent isn't going to back down for you.  The game is going to be the game no matter who you have under center. That is, every NFL team knows you have to mix it up and adjust to the defense, normally on the fly, on every play. 

Valid points in some scenarios.  But the games that resonate in fans minds are those where Crow as getting as much as 8yd on average PER CARRY through the first quarter and then he completely disappeared.  In these games, the defense played well (at some points even dominating).  The Browns had the lead multiple times and simply needed to run the ball to wear down the clock in the 4th quarter.  When Crow and Duke will making things happen on the ground, Hue decided to abandon the run.  There weren't any compelling reasons.  It wasn't the defense failing to stop their opponents.  Crow was running hard no matter how many defenders were in the box.  He had been throughout the game.  But yet, Hue abandons the run.  These are the times that stick out in fans minds.

I completely agree about mixing up the play-calling.  A solid game plan should be as close to 50/50 or 45/55 as possible.  But there were multiple instances where it went 90 passing / 10 rushing at best.  It became a common criticism among reporters and fans alike.  The run game is there to help the rookie QB - instead it was taken away in order to force a rookie QB to make plays on his own, and when he didn't make plays he was benched only to be forced back in again later.  

 

[MAC_32]

And people need to acknowledge that Hue was abysmal at recognizing when the appropriate time to abandon the run actually occured.

Dude was a total idiot calling plays.

The further we get away from the season the more this narrative will try to be squashed.  I hope the fans don't let it happen.  There is absolutely no excuse for the pathetic "game plans" executed by this group - on both sides of the ball.  They stayed in games despite their coaching, not because of it.  They were consistently put in positions to fail.  Sometimes they did and sometimes they overcame them.  And when they did the lack of adjustments eventually led to blowing it late.

Do not expect this to change until we're shown reason to believe otherwise.  Until then - https://blabberdrive.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/angry-mob-simpsons.jpg.

 

[Peak]

Wow.  I never said anything about accomplishing anything.  What I said is that beer dude's comment about players regressing is based on his dislike for Hue and not anything factual.  This begets the question of how a coach can make someone a lesser player.  Do you really think Crow is now a bad player?  I can see where someone's practice habits could change if the coach is undemanding, but that isn't Hue's style.  He's always about "hard work".  And, I seem to recall lots of times where the players have come to his support, saying everyone plays hard for him.  So, if you think it's possible for rookie Kessler and/or rookie Kizer to take you anywhere, no matter who the coach was, we'll have to disagree.  To that, I would personally add that I've seen the team cycle through coaches one after the other, and start over with new systems year after year.  I want to give continuity a try for once.

I am all for continuity, but that shipped sailed when the FO was revamped for the ump-teenth time.  What good is continuity when all the offensive staff is fired, special teams is let go, and the FO is reorganized?  But the HC stayed so we still have continuity?  With Jimmy doing knee-jerk reactions looking for the golden ticket to turning this franchise around, we may never see continuity.

Being stuck in Cincy, I've seen how good an OC Hue can be.  I've seen how players like to play for him and the good he can bring to a team.  With that said, I haven't seen that Hue in CLE.  He looks lost and out of his league as a HC.  Did he take on too much responsibility?  Perhaps.  But that's how he chose to run this team.  Did he have great players with great talent on his roster?  No.  But he knew that coming into this situation.  Sashi & Co made it very clear they were going to tear this franchise down to the studs and rebuild it through the draft.  I think they did a good job finding some talented youth to bring to this team.  They also wiffed on some veteran leaders, but that'll happen. 

Having known the cupboard was going to be bare - Having known that the team was not going to be uber talented - Having known the situation he was walking into - my question is why didn't Hue tailor an offense to the strengths of those he had on his roster?  Why did he try to force Kizer into a system he clearly wasn't picking up?  Why did he abandon the running game so frequently? Why didn't he game-plan for teams the way I've seen him do in the past?

Kizer and/or Kessler isn't going to take you anywhere - but they could have been at least serviceable.  Kizer showed some promise later in the season, but he still has a long way to go IMO.  The coach could've helped him train/learn to succeed a little more by playing to his strengths.  Why was Watson so good?  Because the coaches tailored the offense to include plays he was familiar with from college.  Why was Foles so successful in the post season?  Because the coaches worked with him to identify the plays he was comfortable running and incorporated that into the game plan.  Hue didn't tailor an offense or seek out input.  He tried to put a square peg into a round hole. 

These are reasons why I'm not a fan of Hue.  I think his arrogance got in the way of his coaching acumen and he tried to spin blame off to anyone but himself.  Had he stood up and said, "I'm sorry - I messed up", I would have a little more respect for him.  But instead he resulted to blaming players during press conferences and leaking stories to the media because he felt he wasn't being supported.  That to me is not a leader of men.  That is a scared and confused individual. 

 

[Peak]

Just saw and article that thinks the Browns could trade for Nick Foles.  There is some risk for sure but Foles threw the ball extremely well for the past month or so.  Having great weapons at RB, TE, and WR certainly helped Foles but the Browns should be able to match that talent. 

God I hope this doesn't happen.  Foles is the flavor of the moment.  He does well within a specific scheme, one which Hue doesn't employ.  He would be another flash in the pan QB that wouldn't be very serviceable as a bridge, let alone a FQB.

 

[MAC_32]

Just saw and article that thinks the Browns could trade for Nick Foles.  There is some risk for sure but Foles threw the ball extremely well for the past month or so.  Having great weapons at RB, TE, and WR certainly helped Foles but the Browns should be able to match that talent. 

Welcome to Cleveland, Nick.  Now, I know that they implemented this WCO/RPO offense for you on the fly in Philly and doing so is a big reason why you won a Super Bowl.  But here.  We run 4 verts.  Nothing but 4 verts.  Oh, your deep ball sucks?  Well, fix it - because you're throwing 4 verts.  With no run game.  And if you fail I'll throw you under every bus I can find.  Welcome aboard!

 

[DocHolliday]

God I hope this doesn't happen.  Foles is the flavor of the moment.  He does well within a specific scheme, one which Hue doesn't employ.  He would be another flash in the pan QB that wouldn't be very serviceable as a bridge, let alone a FQB.

As Mac writes in the post after yours, Foles does not throw a good deep ball.  He does seem to throw everything else accurately.  Foles seems like more than a flash in the pan to me.   I doubt Cleveland is actually interested in Foles anyway.  They are probably going to roll the dice on a QB with their first pick.  What could possibly go wrong?

 

[beer 30]

Valid points in some scenarios.  But the games that resonate in fans minds are those where Crow as getting as much as 8yd on average PER CARRY through the first quarter and then he completely disappeared.  In these games, the defense played well (at some points even dominating).  The Browns had the lead multiple times and simply needed to run the ball to wear down the clock in the 4th quarter.  When Crow and Duke will making things happen on the ground, Hue decided to abandon the run.  There weren't any compelling reasons.  It wasn't the defense failing to stop their opponents.  Crow was running hard no matter how many defenders were in the box.  He had been throughout the game.  But yet, Hue abandons the run.  These are the times that stick out in fans minds.

I completely agree about mixing up the play-calling.  A solid game plan should be as close to 50/50 or 45/55 as possible.  But there were multiple instances where it went 90 passing / 10 rushing at best.  It became a common criticism among reporters and fans alike.  The run game is there to help the rookie QB - instead it was taken away in order to force a rookie QB to make plays on his own, and when he didn't make plays he was benched only to be forced back in again later.  

So much this. Dave, I hope you give us all a little more credit to know that when the game is a blow out or you are in a track meet we will be chucking the rock. Anyone posting in this thread at this time has to be a pretty die hard, we know football enough to be able to know when it's time to flip the switch and for the most part, there were a lot of games the Browns were in to the end. I've said it before, there is talent on this team, they are young and hunger for a win. When you are dominating a team with the run and inexplicably go away from it, it just makes no sense and the only person I can point to is the head coach. When you are having success running the ball you step on their throat and run it some more until they either stop it or your RB raises the white flag because he's too tired.

Also Dave, i hope you're not taking this discussion as a shot at you. I love we're having a spirited debate about a 1-31 team in the middle of the offseason! The Browns following is alive and well. I just don't agree that the current coaching staff is helping advance player development based on what I've seen over the last 2 seasons. I think a big part of that was Hue pulling double duty as HC and OC. I'm hoping Haley is free to do his thing and Hue can become the HC we all hoped he would be when they hired him. I also hope he's on a short leash because I think the owner has been too lenient on expectation.

 

[Peak]

Also Dave, i hope you're not taking this discussion as a shot at you. I love we're having a spirited debate about a 1-31 team in the middle of the offseason!

  I'll second this completely.  It's much better than the doom/gloom talk I come across in other places.  At least here we can have a spirited debate without it resulting into utter nonsense and name-calling.  We may come at it from different angles, but you can tell we're all passionate fans.

 

[Peak]

As Mac writes in the post after yours, Foles does not throw a good deep ball.  He does seem to throw everything else accurately.  Foles seems like more than a flash in the pan to me.   I doubt Cleveland is actually interested in Foles anyway.  They are probably going to roll the dice on a QB with their first pick.  What could possibly go wrong?

The only thing I can reference are the stats Foles left behind when he moved away from the Eagles.

After making the Pro Bowl under Chip Kelly's unique RPO offense in 2013/2014, Foles was traded away for a broken Sam Bradford.  During his time in StL, Foles was unable to recover that Philly magic and went 4-7 in 2015, which ended his career there.  Foles went to KC in 2016, but only played in 3 games, netting a 1-0 record and decent stats in Reid's particular offense.  He was then ousted when Alex Smith showed upand moved back to Philly in a backup role.

Foles' best records were in an RPO type offense.  StL didn't run that and Foles' game couldn't adapt to it.  Maybe Haley would adapt to the strengths of Foles, but I'm not so positive.  I see him like some of the other career backups that get moved along (Matt Flynn, Matt Cassell, Brian Hoyer) from team to team but never pan out.  They may show some flashes, but if they aren't going to go into a system and become a FQB.

If Foles was brought in, I'd have to think it's as a bridge QB for a year or two.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

The only thing I can reference are the stats Foles left behind when he moved away from the Eagles.

After making the Pro Bowl under Chip Kelly's unique RPO offense in 2013/2014, Foles was traded away for a broken Sam Bradford.  During his time in StL, Foles was unable to recover that Philly magic and went 4-7 in 2015, which ended his career there.  Foles went to KC in 2016, but only played in 3 games, netting a 1-0 record and decent stats in Reid's particular offense.  He was then ousted when Alex Smith showed upand moved back to Philly in a backup role.

Foles' best records were in an RPO type offense.  StL didn't run that and Foles' game couldn't adapt to it. 

I do not think you can hold Foles' record against him in St. Louis. If you count what he did at season's end and in the playoff's three QBs that failed under Fisher had outstanding seasons in 2017, with two of them meeting in the NFCCG while the other led the NFLs top offense.

As to the bolded - I'm not sure what you are saying. Alex Smith was there well before Foles and was the established starter. Reid brought Foles aboard as a backup to Smith, and Foles did well when called upon.

By no mean am I endorsing Cleveland trading for him (in fact I do not want my Jets to either) but he's always showed to be a fine QB outside of when he played for Offense Killer Jeff Fisher.

 

[Peak]

As to the bolded - I'm not sure what you are saying. Alex Smith was there well before Foles and was the established starter. Reid brought Foles aboard as a backup to Smith, and Foles did well when called upon.

My bad.  Had my timelines wrong.  Thanks for clearing that up.

I do agree about Fisher killing offenses.  But I also wonder if those that left under Fisher went to coaches who were more receptive to adapting offenses around the strengths of their new QB (similar to Pederson > Foles)? 

 

[beer 30]

My bad.  Had my timelines wrong.  Thanks for clearing that up.

I do agree about Fisher killing offenses.  But I also wonder if those that left under Fisher went to coaches who were more receptive to adapting offenses around the strengths of their new QB (similar to Pederson > Foles)? 

What a novel idea

 

[Biabreakable]

I do not think you can hold Foles' record against him in St. Louis. If you count what he did at season's end and in the playoff's three QBs that failed under Fisher had outstanding seasons in 2017, with two of them meeting in the NFCCG while the other led the NFLs top offense.

As to the bolded - I'm not sure what you are saying. Alex Smith was there well before Foles and was the established starter. Reid brought Foles aboard as a backup to Smith, and Foles did well when called upon.

By no mean am I endorsing Cleveland trading for him (in fact I do not want my Jets to either) but he's always showed to be a fine QB outside of when he played for Offense Killer Jeff Fisher.

I don't think that highly of Foles personally, but no QB was going to succeed with Jeff Fisher.

As to the Browns fans discussion about continuity. I think that is important. The Browns changed coaches every year for about a decade since Crennel was the HC for awhile. A year isn't enough time to evaluate a players fit for the team and system. When there are major changes, there becomes a disconnect with what the front office is doing and what the coaching staff needs to be successful with what they are trying to do. You don't want to switching from the 4-3 defense to the 3-4 then back again, as it throws off the type of players the team is drafting fitting what the new coaches want to do.

So continuity is necessary to even try to evaluate if the current plan is making progress or not.

Based on what the Browns have done with Hue over 2 seasons. Can you say that there has been progress? Has there been something established for the Browns to build on and around?

Sadly I don't think Hue Jackson is the right coach for this progression. He has been a head coach before, but maybe as some of you have mentioned, he is better as an offensive coordinator than a head coach.

What I can tell you as a fan of football that Hue Jacksons offenses are predictable for me and that is probably not a good thing. 

 

[Biabreakable]

My bad.  Had my timelines wrong.  Thanks for clearing that up.

I do agree about Fisher killing offenses.  But I also wonder if those that left under Fisher went to coaches who were more receptive to adapting offenses around the strengths of their new QB (similar to Pederson > Foles)? 

I don't think FIsher had much of a concept of what a starting QB should be doing and he hired coaches who knew less about it than he did.

Just makes me think of watching Hard Knocks where FIsher is talking to Greg WIlliams and they are saying "now that looks like an NFL QB" like they are just hoping Goff brought that NFL QB talent with him, like it is this rare breed that can only be uncovered by luck, they don't really know what it looks like because they aren't really able to describe it too well, which tells you what a challenge it is going to be for them to teach Goff how to play a position they are only focused on breaking, not building.

Case Keenum stepped in for Foles with the Rams and did a bit better than him because of his mobility. Those were some very bad offensive lines too, Goff did get some improved protection from free agency that helped too, but I think it was mostly just bad coaching. The Rams were running this offense around Tavon Austin. They copied the Vikings offense with Percy Harvin and Christian Ponder. It was not good.

 

[ghostguy123]

The only way the Eagles trade Foles is if they get probably late 1st round value, maybe more.  His value to them is more than his trade value. 

Think about it, if this was the Browns, coming off a Super Bowl where Foles led us to the title the way he did, with our starting QB uncertain for the start of the following season, why on Earth would you bother trading Foles unless you were blown away with an offer??

I put the chances of Foles not being an Eagle next year at maybe 5%

 

[DocHolliday]

The only way the Eagles trade Foles is if they get probably late 1st round value, maybe more.  His value to them is more than his trade value. 

Think about it, if this was the Browns, coming off a Super Bowl where Foles led us to the title the way he did, with our starting QB uncertain for the start of the following season, why on Earth would you bother trading Foles unless you were blown away with an offer??

I put the chances of Foles not being an Eagle next year at maybe 5%

I totally agree with the bolded.  Foles will be an Eagle next season unless another team makes a crazy trade offer that Philly cannot pass up. 

 

[daveR]

I intend, when I get time, to pursue the question of Hue "abandoning the running game too early".  To kick it off, I'd like to establish some criteria for determining what qualifies, such as down-and-distance, time left on the clock, effectiveness up to that point, etc.  So, for one, third-and-long is out.  Please add your thoughts...

 

[amnesiac]

I intend, when I get time, to pursue the question of Hue "abandoning the running game too early".  To kick it off, I'd like to establish some criteria for determining what qualifies, such as down-and-distance, time left on the clock, effectiveness up to that point, etc.  So, for one, third-and-long is out.  Please add your thoughts...

always interesting to look at data instead of making assumptions.  

but data can be manipulated as well. 

good luck.  

btw, my suggestion would be to simply look at rushing attempts vs passing attempts per quarter and correlate that with what the score was at the beginning  and end of those quarters.  

probably over simplified, but it should give some insight into general trends without having to dive too deep into the numbers.  

 

[amnesiac]

or, if you would rather go deeper, i would look specifically at the games that people felt were the worst examples.  should be easier to spot the trends there, if they are present.  

 

[Peak]

I intend, when I get time, to pursue the question of Hue "abandoning the running game too early".  To kick it off, I'd like to establish some criteria for determining what qualifies, such as down-and-distance, time left on the clock, effectiveness up to that point, etc.  So, for one, third-and-long is out.  Please add your thoughts...

Noble quest.  I like it.  But then I'm also a data person, so it fits up my alley.

my suggestion would be to simply look at rushing attempts vs passing attempts per quarter and correlate that with what the score was at the beginning  and end of those quarters.

Great starting point.  I'd also throw in starting with games where the scores were either close, or CLE was leading around halftime.  These are typically good starting points.  I tend to use Pro-Football Reference to check out stats and splits.  Here's an interesting link for Crowell's splits showing stats split by Quarters and Halves of 2017.  Interesting tidbit that Crowell had more Carry Attempts in the 1st Half of games throughout the season than the 2nd Half of games throughout the season.  It was almost 30% lower comparing halves, even though his YPC was higher in the second half of games (4.4 vs 4).  If Crowell was averaging more yardage in the 2nd Half of games, why did he get less carries?  To your point, there may be many different reasons - but it's a starting point.

 

[Peak]

Same source...but interesting stats for Crow this year...

Split Value Att Yds Y/A TD 1D Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD 1D Y/Tgt
Leading 21 133 6.3 0 5 2 2 3 1.5 0 0 1.5
Tied 57 216 3.8 1 13 6 4 19 4.8 0 1 3.2
Trailing 128 504 3.9 1 21 34 22 160 7.3 0 8 4.7


Interesting that when CLE held a lead, that was when they ran the ball the fewest times - even though that was when they averaged the most yards per attempt.

 

[beer 30]

Noble quest.  I like it.  But then I'm also a data person, so it fits up my alley.

Great starting point.  I'd also throw in starting with games where the scores were either close, or CLE was leading around halftime.  These are typically good starting points.

This was my thought on the subject. No sense looking at blowouts.

 

[Bobcat10]

Same source...but interesting stats for Crow this year...

Split Value Att Yds Y/A TD 1D Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD 1D Y/Tgt
Leading 21 133 6.3 0 5 2 2 3 1.5 0 0 1.5
Tied 57 216 3.8 1 13 6 4 19 4.8 0 1 3.2
Trailing 128 504 3.9 1 21 34 22 160 7.3 0 8 4.7


Interesting that when CLE held a lead, that was when they ran the ball the fewest times - even though that was when they averaged the most yards per attempt.

What percentage of game time were the Browns leading?

 

[ghostguy123]

Hue seemed to abandon the run before games even started.  Rookie QB and so few rushing attempts, while having a good YPC?   Hue is a #######. 

 

[Peak]

What percentage of game time were the Browns leading?

Hmmm...good question.  That will take some more digging.  I do know that this team did not hold a lead in a game until 10/8.  So that should narrow the search.  But I also found this interesting stat regarding leading vs trailing situations.  Once we uncover the % of time they led vs they trailed in a game, this may unfold into some more interesting discussions on coaching philosophies.

Game Situation		  	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	1D	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	1D		Y/Tgt
Leading, < 4 min to go		1	1	1.0	0	0	0	0	0		0	0		
Trailing, < 2 min to go		0	0		0	0	2	1	2	2.0	0	0		1.0
Trailing, < 4 min to go		1	2	2.0	0	0	6	4	27	6.8	0	2		4.

 

[Peak]

Now my interest is piqued and I'm digging....

The following split shows types of plays run based on the Score Differential of a game.  Keep in mind these are total plays throughout the games - so we'll have to dig into which games they led and break it down even further to see how quickly a run was abandoned during a lead.

Rushing Passing
Score Differential #Pl ToGo Yds Att Yds Y/A TD 1D Cmp Att Cmp% Yds Y/A TD Int Sk 1D Rate ANY/A
Leading 62 8.37 5.84 31 174 5.6 0 7 17 30 56.7 124 4.1 2 2 1 9 61.0 2.4 All Browns plays when Leading
Tied 179 9.29 5.28 95 372 3.9 2 26 36 77 46.8 356 4.6 1 3 7 14 48.4 2.9 All Browns plays when Tied
Trailing 767 8.92 7.03 258 1167 4.5 9 70 259 467 55.5 2763 5.9 12 23 42 136 61.0 3.9 All Browns plays when Trailin


Here is a link to All Plays While Browns Led A Game

One of the biggest takeaways I saw was the number of times Kizer threw an interception when the Browns had a lead.

 

[daveR]

always interesting to look at data instead of making assumptions.  

but data can be manipulated as well. 

good luck.  

btw, my suggestion would be to simply look at rushing attempts vs passing attempts per quarter and correlate that with what the score was at the beginning  and end of those quarters.  

probably over simplified, but it should give some insight into general trends without having to dive too deep into the numbers.  

Well, like Beer Dude suggested above, it's February, so WTF, why not...?

 

[Biabreakable]

Now my interest is piqued and I'm digging....

The following split shows types of plays run based on the Score Differential of a game.  Keep in mind these are total plays throughout the games - so we'll have to dig into which games they led and break it down even further to see how quickly a run was abandoned during a lead.

Rushing Passing
Score Differential #Pl ToGo Yds Att Yds Y/A TD 1D Cmp Att Cmp% Yds Y/A TD Int Sk 1D Rate ANY/A
Leading 62 8.37 5.84 31 174 5.6 0 7 17 30 56.7 124 4.1 2 2 1 9 61.0 2.4 All Browns plays when Leading
Tied 179 9.29 5.28 95 372 3.9 2 26 36 77 46.8 356 4.6 1 3 7 14 48.4 2.9 All Browns plays when Tied
Trailing 767 8.92 7.03 258 1167 4.5 9 70 259 467 55.5 2763 5.9 12 23 42 136 61.0 3.9 All Browns plays when Trailin


Here is a link to All Plays While Browns Led A Game

One of the biggest takeaways I saw was the number of times Kizer threw an interception when the Browns had a lead.

If I am reading the link right I see there were only 64 total plays where the Browns were ahead. In four games. So which 4 games were those?

64 of 1008 total plays. Only 6% or so of the season. So not much. The Browns were in chase situation for most of the year.

Another way to look at Crowell's stats would be by success rate from FBO

This takes into consideration the down and distance of the players runs, and how frequently they got the yardage to qualify as a successful run.

Crowell had a 40% success rate, and I only see five qualifying RB who had lower than 40% DeMarco Murray, Bilail Powell, and Ameer Abdullah, Chris Ivory, Doug Martin.

There are many other 40% success rate players. I think it is fair to say Crowell's success rate is on the lower end of the scale though.

I went back and looked at 2016 and Crowell's success rate was 39% which was tied with CJ Anderson, Rashad Jennings, one percent higher than TJ Yeldon. So in the bottom 3.

I thought to look at this since such a high percentage of Crowells runs are when the Browns need 10 or more yards for a 1st down. Most of his runs are on 1st and 2nd down with 10 or more yards to go. 68.4% of Crowells runs were when the Browns needed 10 or more yards for a 1st down.

 

[Peak]

I often thought (assumed?) that Crow was a 2 down back with Duke coming in in 3rd downs.  Wonder if that plays into it.  Could also be that the offense was in such a deep hole in yardage they were forced to throw more and run less.

Games in 2017 I think I remember them having a lead: NYJ, IND, PITT, and GB.  I could be wrong.

 

[MAC_32]

Not Indy, 2nd quarter meltdown. They went prevent so the score ended up closer than it really was.