Cleveland Browns (4 Viewers)

[beer 30]

Regarding the question we are addressing with the play-by-play recaps.  There is good evidence that they were running effectively, but abandoned it when they got (well) behind.  I count this game as evidence in your favor.

Well that's one

It's my opinion that, as fans, we have very little info to evaluate coaching.  We watch the games.  We have no idea what was practiced.  We have no idea who missed what assignment and why.  We don't know what the reads are and what adjustments are made.  We are not privy to the game plan.   We don't know when the QB can change the play or what his options are.  We don't know when the WRs run the wrong route.  We don't know who is injured, sick or just gassed. 

Everybody's entitled to his opinion.  Mine is that the coach is fine and continuity is very valuable.  With that, I'll move on.

I agree with the bolded, you absolutely can not win in the NFL turning over your coaching staff every 2-3 years. My contention has been and will continue to be that the coaching staff, as it was constructed the last two years, was ineffective at producing the best possible result with the roster we had to work with. There are a multitude of variables that go into that, almost too many to consider as we are seeing in these recaps. It's also very easy to point to the HC as the end all, be all when it comes to ultimate responsibility for these issues. It takes an entire organization to go 1-31, you can't pin it all on one man, one play, one decision.

With that said, as a HC in the NFL, you are the one standing at the podium and ultimately the one called into the owners office to answer for the record of the team. I don't want to turn over the coaching staff again and I am hoping that with some of the changes made to the staff that this year will be successful but I would argue that these are all things that should have been addressed after 1-15 and they weren't. The HC contends he can fix it and that a lot of the issues aren't his fault might be true but that's what he's getting paid to do. And when i see him at a podium throwing his QB under the bus it doesn't impress me as a very good way to develop that player when it is HIS scheme that puts the kid into those positions.

 

[MAC_32]

Regarding the question we are addressing with the play-by-play recaps.  There is good evidence that they were running effectively, but abandoned it when they got (well) behind.  I count this game as evidence in your favor.

This game was lost due to a defensive melt down in the 2nd quarter. You can see Hue going f this s in his play calling once down 21-7 but I doubt it'd have mattered given the hole the defense dug. That plan out of halftime was hilariously bad though. Sack-fumble-then. Keep throwing.

 

[daveR]

Well that's one

I agree with the bolded, you absolutely can not win in the NFL turning over your coaching staff every 2-3 years. My contention has been and will continue to be that the coaching staff, as it was constructed the last two years, was ineffective at producing the best possible result with the roster we had to work with. There are a multitude of variables that go into that, almost too many to consider as we are seeing in these recaps. It's also very easy to point to the HC as the end all, be all when it comes to ultimate responsibility for these issues. It takes an entire organization to go 1-31, you can't pin it all on one man, one play, one decision.

With that said, as a HC in the NFL, you are the one standing at the podium and ultimately the one called into the owners office to answer for the record of the team. I don't want to turn over the coaching staff again and I am hoping that with some of the changes made to the staff that this year will be successful but I would argue that these are all things that should have been addressed after 1-15 and they weren't. The HC contends he can fix it and that a lot of the issues aren't his fault might be true but that's what he's getting paid to do. And when i see him at a podium throwing his QB under the bus it doesn't impress me as a very good way to develop that player when it is HIS scheme that puts the kid into those positions.

So... I get what you're saying, but the part I don't like is how the head coach gets the ax because he's the head coach.  I know that's the M.O. in the NFL, but it comes at the price of the continuity I think is critical.

 

[daveR]

Does anybody know if all the pressers for the 2017 season are available to listen to?

 

[ghostguy123]

Does anybody know if all the pressers for the 2017 season are available to listen to?

Just pick one.  They are all the same.

 

[ghostguy123]

If someone could pay me for a few days off of work, I would sit home, watch all the games again, and jot down all the blatant idiotic things Hue did (or didn't do).  WOuld be fin actually.  I just dont have the 30+ hours available that it would take.  

I might not have enough paper either.

 

[MAC_32]

If someone could pay me for a few days off of work, I would sit home, watch all the games again, and jot down all the blatant idiotic things Hue did (or didn't do).  WOuld be fin actually.  I just dont have the 30+ hours available that it would take.  

I might not have enough paper either.

Nor valium, alcohol, and cocaine.

 

[ghostguy123]

Nor valium, alcohol, and cocaine.

I usually only need alcohol to have a blast watching the horror comedy genre.  This fits right in.  

 

[beer 30]

So... I get what you're saying, but the part I don't like is how the head coach gets the ax because he's the head coach.  I know that's the M.O. in the NFL, but it comes at the price of the continuity I think is critical.

And at the end of the day, who is most responsible for the teams success or failure? I’m not saying it’s fair but there has to be some accountability for a 1-31 record. As the season wore on it seemed to me Hue was looking for scapegoats more and more rather than pointing the finger back at the guy in the mirror. Maybe that’s what irks me most.

 

[ghostguy123]

And at the end of the day, who is most responsible for the teams success or failure? I’m not saying it’s fair but there has to be some accountability for a 1-31 record. As the season wore on it seemed to me Hue was looking for scapegoats more and more rather than pointing the finger back at the guy in the mirror. Maybe that’s what irks me most.

I can understand the crummy record.  Sashi was pulling a two year tank.  We didnt have a QB on the roster with an NFL win for god sake.  Has that ever happened??  

However, I can not excuse Hue's terrible decision making thay constantly reared its ugly head, or how big a tool he sounded like blaming everyone else all the time.

 

[Soulfly3]

OK, guys... We can seriosuly drop the Hue playcalling chatter now. He's calling eff all on offense this season. 

Leave the past where it belongs. 

 

[Bobcat10]

To be honest, if it were me, I would probably have taken the penalty.  Still, if this play is significant to your determination that the coach is incompetent, I stand by my statement that you have decided the outcome and are looking for justification.  Letting them try on 4th-1, (and getting the stop!) is hardly a sign of incompetence.

Of course you would take the penalty. Anyone besides Hue would. Stopping them on the play has nothing to do with the decision. 

I posted it because you asked GG for examples. Just helping out.

I don’t really understand all the looking for justification stuff you keep bringing up. I think I should be offended by it, but not sure. My opinion of Hue has developed over 2 years and it ranges all the way from coaching and play calling to his off the field persona (his pressers, finger pointing, and leaks).

 

[beer 30]

OK, guys... We can seriosuly drop the Hue playcalling chatter now. He's calling eff all on offense this season. 

Leave the past where it belongs. 

Forget it, we’re on a roll...

 

[DallasDMac]

So, how 'bout that draft and Cousins guy? Josh Gordon? Soulfly? Soulfly?

 

[MAC_32]

I would be thrilled if I don't hear Josh Gordon's name one time between now and the end of July. 

 

[Bobcat10]

So, how 'bout that draft and Cousins guy? Josh Gordon? Soulfly? Soulfly?

You think there’s a >5% chance we land Cousins?

 

[Peak]

You think there’s a >5% chance we land Cousins?

I think we have a 25% chance to land him, not that I want to do so. I think it will come down to money, especially seeing what JimmyG just received. I see Denver, Arizona, and NYJ making a big push for him. Jax may be a sleeper if they feel they can hold Bortles it trade him.

 

[DallasDMac]

You think there’s a >5% chance we land Cousins?

Yes, though I hope not. Not a huge fan. If the Browns do land him, I hope it is a contract they can get out of after three years, long enough to groom the QB they draft. I don't really want to spend the foreseeable future knowing the ceiling is 8-8, which is what you get with Cousins.

 

[Bobcat10]

I think we have a 25% chance to land him, not that I want to do so. I think it will come down to money, especially seeing what JimmyG just received. I see Denver, Arizona, and NYJ making a big push for him. Jax may be a sleeper if they feel they can hold Bortles it trade him.

Yes, though I hope not. Not a huge fan. If the Browns do land him, I hope it is a contract they can get out of after three years, long enough to groom the QB they draft. I don't really want to spend the foreseeable future knowing the ceiling is 8-8, which is what you get with Cousins.

Maybe 5% was a low threshold considering I'm on the far end where I think we have virtually no chance without a real solid overpay.  I suppose a few things happening with other potential suitors that pull them out of contention for his services is another way he becomes more of an option here.  I can see how others think we have more of a chance if any of those ring true.  But, just as we stand at this moment, I'm not really seeing it.  

 

[ghostguy123]

I wonder if Cousins knows his ceiling is 8-8.  

 

[DallasDMac]

Maybe 5% was a low threshold considering I'm on the far end where I think we have virtually no chance without a real solid overpay.

Right. But the real solid overpay is a real possibility. Hence my thinking it is greater than a 5% chance.

This guy agrees with you, puts it at 30 to 1.

 

[DallasDMac]

I wonder if Cousins knows his ceiling is 8-8.  

Don't know. People who've regularly seen him play do though.

 

[Peak]

Right. But the real solid overpay is a real possibility. Hence my thinking it is greater than a 5% chance.

That's where I am as well.  I'm hoping the FO doesn't go full knee-jerk after losing out on the Smith trade and start tossing big $$ at Cousins.  I see him as a 3 year starter on this team and not a FQB.  He'll make the Browns look good right off the bat, but then will level out around that 8-8, 9-7 mark.  I know this is a dream come true based on the last 18 years, but still - not the end all solution of having a play-off caliber team year in / year out.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Two points and some questions.

1.  Cousins is an unrestricted free agent.  He is going to command over $25 million per year and at least a 5 year contract with over $75 million guaranteed.

We hold the 1st and 4th picks in a draft where we can get a rookie QB at a rookie contract for 5 years.

You do not sign the sort of contract that a Kirk Cousins will command if you plan on taking a rookie QB with one of the top-four picks because you don't sit a top-four pick for five years and you don't sit a $25 million QB on the bench.  

2.  Cousins has made his personal fortune of tens of millions of dollars, he never has to work another day for the rest of his life.  He has stated he is not only after money but that he wants to win.

--------------------------------------- 

Do you think we are going to pass up the chance of taking a rookie QB after passing on Wentz and Watson?

Do you really think Kirk Cousins is worth that sort of contract?

And the big question.

Who honestly thinks that we are going to sign Kirk Cousins? 

 

[DallasDMac]

Do you think we are going to pass up the chance of taking a rookie QB after passing on Wentz and Watson? I hope not.

Do you really think Kirk Cousins is worth that sort of contract? Absolutely not.

And the big question.

Who honestly thinks that we are going to sign Kirk Cousins? I think it's a possibility that they will persue him and then use the draft to shore up other positions.

Added note, when Cousins says he is not about the money, I think he is full of ####. I've seen and heard enough from him that I don't even remotely believe him when he says that. Just one man's opinion of course.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Added note, when Cousins says he is not about the money, I think he is full of ####. I've seen and heard enough from him that I don't even remotely believe him when he says that. Just one man's opinion of course.

Cousins said money was part of what he is seeking but not all.   What he said was:

“Is money a part of it? Sure. Is it the only thing? No,” Cousins said. “It is about winning, and that’s what I want more than anything, so I’m going to be willing to make sacrifices or do what has to be done to make sure I’m in the best possible position to win, and that’s what the focus is going to be.”

 

[DallasDMac]

Cousins said money was part of what he is seeking but not all.   What he said was:

“Is money a part of it? Sure. Is it the only thing? No,” Cousins said. “It is about winning, and that’s what I want more than anything, so I’m going to be willing to make sacrifices or do what has to be done to make sure I’m in the best possible position to win, and that’s what the focus is going to be.”

Do you really expect him to come out and say "It's all about the money"? Not being snarky here. But of course he's going to add "Oh yea, and winning to. Money and winning. And sacrifice! Yea, sacrifice." Perhaps he means it, but I'm leery. He is just as likely to have said those things because he's expected to, as would any player in his shoes.

 

[Peak]

Two points and some questions.

1.  Cousins is an unrestricted free agent.  He is going to command over $25 million per year and at least a 5 year contract with over $75 million guaranteed.

We hold the 1st and 4th picks in a draft where we can get a rookie QB at a rookie contract for 5 years.

You do not sign the sort of contract that a Kirk Cousins will command if you plan on taking a rookie QB with one of the top-four picks because you don't sit a top-four pick for five years and you don't sit a $25 million QB on the bench.  

2.  Cousins has made his personal fortune of tens of millions of dollars, he never has to work another day for the rest of his life.  He has stated he is not only after money but that he wants to win.

Completely agree with your points above.  If CLE signs Cousins, then that is an immediate sign that we will not be drafting a QB at either 1 or 4 in the upcoming draft.  It will let all the other teams know that one of these picks is available to the highest bidder.

For your second point, I expect Cousins to say the types of things I have bolded above.  Any FA looking for the most suitors as possible to generate a bidding war for his services would say the exact same thing.  I have learned to expect that when someone says "It's not about the $$$...", It is always about the $$$.  I'm sure having a stable structure (FO, Coaching staff) and a solid group of playmakers on offense to work alongside are other major factors in his decision.  But if the best team in the NFL that wants his services and checks all of these boxes calls his bluff and offers him a minimal contract, do you honestly believe he would take it because he's already made enough money?  I sure don't.  He'll still either negotiate to have them match or exceed the highest offer on the table.  Money is always a factor in these conversations.

Do you think we are going to pass up the chance of taking a rookie QB after passing on Wentz and Watson? 

Do you really think Kirk Cousins is worth that sort of contract?

And the big question.

Who honestly thinks that we are going to sign Kirk Cousins? 

Q1 - No, I don't see CLE passing up the chance to get their top choice at a rookie QB that could be a FQB.  The time is ripe, and all actions to date these last two years have been to position this team to get exactly what they want from this group of talented rookie QBs.  If that pass it up, then what was the point in playing like crap the last two years?  I have to think that was the plan and everyone in the FO and coaching staff was aware of it from the start.  If not, this franchise is truly, and amazingly, idiotic.

Q2 - I don't think Cousins is worth a contract the size of - or more than - JimmyG's.  He doesn't appear to be a FQB in my perspective.  He's an adequate QB and can play above averaage with the talented skill players around him and a strong o-line.  He isn't the type of QB that would put the team on his shoulders and win the game.  He'll manage it and let the skill players make the plays to win.

Q3 - I don't think we'll sign Cousins.  Maybe that's wishful thinking, but I see him going somewhere not named CLE.  He'll either want to play for Elway in Denver, or maybe jump to a team who already runs an offense he's familiar with, such as NYJ.  If he wants a contender who is set up to win now, I can see MIN jumping in for his services.  All of those would be football environments that I could see Cousins running towards even if CLE goes all in on the high $$ contract.

 

[Bracie Smathers]

Do you really expect him to come out and say "It's all about the money"? Not being snarky here. But of course he's going to add "Oh yea, and winning to. Money and winning. And sacrifice! Yea, sacrifice." Perhaps he means it, but I'm leery. He is just as likely to have said those things because he's expected to, as would any player in his shoes.

No one has ever been in his shoes in the history of the National Football League.  No NFL QB has ever been franchised two years in a row and not gotten a long term deal.  No one.

He admits he is after money, i.e., the long term contract and he is assured of getting a long term contract where he will get paid.

He begins by saying that money is important but not the only thing.  I see no reason to take a cynical stance because he ISN'T every NFL QB who hasn't already made a fortune and who will get a long term deal where they are assured of making top QB money.  I don't agree that he only is after squeezing every last penny out of negotiations.

I take him at his word since he began by saying that money is part of it but that he wants to win.

 

[ghostguy123]

Don't know. People who've regularly seen him play do though.

Makes sense.  He was 7-9 last year with arguably the worst supporting cast in the NFL.  His only decent weapon was hurt all year, and their best RB was hurt half the year.  The damn entire Oline was hurt off and on all year.  The defense wasnt even good 

But one more win is his ceiling.  Got it. 

 

[Peak]

Speaking of drafting QBs in 2018, PFF has graded Mayfield out as the best QB in this draft - and that he should be the #1 pick.

Some excerpts:

Over the past three years he has ranked first in the nation in passer rating under pressure each season, and combined, his passer rating under pressure for those three seasons was 116.1.

This past season, Mayfield had the eighth-most ‘NFL throw’ attempts in the nation and by far the best grade of any college quarterback on those pass attempts. This is not a player that was simply the product of a gimmick offense putting defenses in ugly situations and benefitting from routine and easy throws every down.

Mayfield was listed at 6-foot-1 at Oklahoma, and the Senior Bowl measurements confirmed that as a generous college exaggeration. He measured just over 6-foot even, and weighed 216-pounds. That he cleared six feet is a big deal for some, but no matter where in that range he fell, Mayfield has always been an undersized quarterback. He is though an almost identical height/weight analogue for Russell Wilson (5-foot-11, 215-pounds), who hasn’t found problems operating at quarterback in the NFL. Wilson is of course the exception rather than the rule, but for Mayfield to dominate the college grading in the way he has, he is already the exception at the college level.

Mayfield gets a lot of comparisons to Johnny Manziel, but the most fundamental flaw in this parallel is that when Mayfield takes off, he is looking to buy time to create a play within the offense, Manziel was scrambling to run, or to heave a deep bomb and little else. There is design to Mayfield’s movement behind the line of scrimmage, while Manziel was pure sandlot.

NFL teams will be the best placed people to evaluate Mayfield’s personality and how that relates to a locker room, as well as how big of a problem any off field concerns may be, isolating evaluation to his performance on the field, there is no quarterback that can come close to the level of dominance we have seen from Mayfield over his college career, and if that were the only criteria, he would be the No.1 overall pick in April’s draft.

 

[Bobcat10]

Right. But the real solid overpay is a real possibility. Hence my thinking it is greater than a 5% chance.

This guy agrees with you, puts it at 30 to 1.

That guy puts some good stuff out there.

Interesting he has Chase 10-1 as the favorite. 

If the McCarron situation was resolved one way or the other already, I think he'd be either 1st or last/off the board entirely.  

 

[ghostguy123]

When do we hear about the mccarron thing anyway?

 

[Peak]

When do we hear about the mccarron thing anyway?

Arbitration hearing is scheduled for 2/15

 

[DallasDMac]

Makes sense.  He was 7-9 last year with arguably the worst supporting cast in the NFL.  His only decent weapon was hurt all year, and their best RB was hurt half the year.  The damn entire Oline was hurt off and on all year.  The defense wasnt even good 

But one more win is his ceiling.  Got it. 

Maybe two. He did manage to go 9-7 with two Pro-Bowl WRs and a Pro-Bowl TE on the squad. I'm sure he can come in and tear it up with Cleveland though.

 

[massraider]

Cousins gets no credit for playing for a clown organization.  It's interesting.  

 

[ghostguy123]

Maybe two. He did manage to go 9-7 with two Pro-Bowl WRs and a Pro-Bowl TE on the squad. I'm sure he can come in and tear it up with Cleveland though.

I think we can slow down about the "two pro bowl WRs" thing.  Not like this was Beckham and Julio here.  Garcon and Djax are not exactly top tier WRs. The team around him was still "meh" at best.

So a QB who is a year removed from 9-7 on a mediocre team has a ceiling of 8-8.  

Did Cousins do your wife or something?  If you don't want him for reasons other than blond hate, cool.  I hear the arguments about the cap and not being a top QB talent, but throwing out garbage like "ceiling of 8-8" just makes you look silly.

 

[Peak]

I think we can slow down about the "two pro bowl WRs" thing.  Not like this was Beckham and Julio here.  Garcon and Djax are not exactly top tier WRs. The team around him was still "meh" at best.

Garcon and DJax were/are still better than anything CLE has right now.  Gordon may be in that tier when his head is on straight.  Per PFF, CLE has a "major need at WR"     

Corey Coleman scored the best with a 45.9 grade. That figure slots him at No. 102 overall. Rashard Higgins (110) and Ricardo Louis (114) followed Coleman on the list of 116 qualifiers.

That’s right. The Browns fielded three of the bottom 15 receivers in the league. Add in Kenny Britt, who finished 105th in his half-season in Cleveland, and the Browns own 25 percent of the worst 16 receivers in the league.

Looking for a silver lining? Josh Gordon graded at 82.1 in his five games, a figure which would rank him 19th, sandwiched between Marvin Jones and Jarvis Landry.

Sub-par WRs.  Stagnant Running Game which is used inconsistently. An athletic TE that is still learning his role. A HC that treats QBs like yo-yos.  Yep.  These are all the boxes that Cousins will check when asked if CLE can surround him with talent and scheme to have a better than 8-8 season.

 

[ghostguy123]

Garcon and DJax were/are still better than anything CLE has right now.  Gordon may be in that tier when his head is on straight.  Per PFF, CLE has a "major need at WR"     

Sub-par WRs.  Stagnant Running Game which is used inconsistently. An athletic TE that is still learning his role. A HC that treats QBs like yo-yos.  Yep.  These are all the boxes that Cousins will check when asked if CLE can surround him with talent and scheme to have a better than 8-8 season.

He just went 7-9 with a worse offensive group than Cleveland has right now.

 

[ghostguy123]

Its like people keep forgetting we have picks 1 and 4 with the very realistic possibility of drafting a stud talent RB, several 2nds, plus 100 million in cap space.

 

[DallasDMac]

I think we can slow down about the "two pro bowl WRs" thing.  Not like this was Beckham and Julio here.  Garcon and Djax are not exactly top tier WRs. The team around him was still "meh" at best.

So a QB who is a year removed from 9-7 on a mediocre team has a ceiling of 8-8.  

Did Cousins do your wife or something?  If you don't want him for reasons other than blond hate, cool.  I hear the arguments about the cap and not being a top QB talent, but throwing out garbage like "ceiling of 8-8" just makes you look silly.

I'm a skins fan. I've watched his entire career. All the game crippling turnovers, all the big game meltdowns, all the mind numbing mistakes.

 

[Bobcat10]

Its like people keep forgetting we have picks 1 and 4 with the very realistic possibility of drafting a stud talent RB, several 2nds, plus 100 million in cap space.

I don’t think anyone is forgetting. It just doesn’t mean the person who will become the highest paid QB of all time is going to be drooling over it. Nobody from the Browns is going to tell him the draft plan while recruiting him, at least they shouldn’t. 

 

[msommer]

Cousins gets no credit for playing for a clown organization.  It's interesting.  

Going to CLE would change that?   

 

[daveR]

Better prospect coming out of college: Carson Wentz or Josh Allen?

 

[MAC_32]

Better prospect coming out of college: Carson Wentz or Josh Allen?

The former was a good college player.  The latter was a lousy college player.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Better prospect coming out of college: Carson Wentz or Josh Allen?

I don't think its close - but I'm not an Allen fan at all.

I'm actually scared my Jets will take him, in which case I will have to hope I'm wrong.

 

[ghostguy123]

Better prospect coming out of college: Carson Wentz or Josh Allen?

Wentz seems like the obvious answer here and not really close.  

 

[beer 30]

Better prospect coming out of college: Carson Wentz or Josh Allen?

Baker Mayfield according to all the news coming out of CLE

 

[Bobcat10]

Wentz seems like the obvious answer here and not really close.  

Don't they have many of the same boxes checked/unchecked on their way out of the college?

 

[MAC_32]

Don't they have many of the same boxes checked/unchecked on their way out of the college?

If you don't count what they actually did on the field, yes.